On 01/12/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 01/12/2023 08:10, Bob wrote:
>>> On 30.11.23 13:34, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>> GB wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There's nothing to stop the orthodox leaving a light on overnight if
>>>>> there's a need.
>>>>
>>>> I've heard of some lights which have a shutter instead of a switch, so
>>>> you can leave it turned on, and then open/close the shutter as
>>>> required on the sabbath ...
>>>
>>> If that is allowed, it raises the prospect of something like dimmer
>>> switch that varies the brightness of a light from imperceptibly dim to
>>> full brightness, without it ever being fully off. It would meet the
>>> technical requirement of not turning something on or off, while
>>> funcionally achieving exactly that (which seems to be the way these
>>> things are being treated).
>>>
>>
>> If one is reduced to that sort of nit-picking to avoid the consequences
>> of one's religious beliefs, I can't see that one's dedication to the
>> religion is that sincere.
>>
>
> It's just an intellectual exercise to demonstrate their total commitment:
> devise and memorise a series of complicated, silly rules, then come up with
> clever workarounds.
>
> I came across another example at the Golan Heights winery. Wine is a
> fundamentally kosher product, but to get the rabbinical seal of approval
> (without which no kosher establishment could purchase it), no-one who isn't
> a sufficiently orthodox Jew can have any contact with it during the
> production process. Most large hotels, and many restaurants, in Israel are
> kosher, so that seal of approval is essential.
>
> The winery was owned by a Californian wine maker, who was a liberal Jew,
> and therefore not allowed to be physically involved with the production. So
> he had to create an inner, glass-walled zone where all the production
> happened, and where only Orthodox Jews could step, and an outer zone for
> anyone else. Those Orthodox Jewish workers knew nothing about wine
> production, so he had to teach them everything, and direct the process,
> without entering the production zone himself.

Do they still have the system where each restaurant must be either meat-
free or dairy-free, because the two must not be mixed? When eating out
in Israel, it was normal to order just the main course in a dairy-free
restaurant then move next door for a creamy but vegetarian dessert.

Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
> On 01/12/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 01/12/2023 08:10, Bob wrote:
>>>> On 30.11.23 13:34, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>> GB wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There's nothing to stop the orthodox leaving a light on overnight if
>>>>>> there's a need.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've heard of some lights which have a shutter instead of a switch, so
>>>>> you can leave it turned on, and then open/close the shutter as
>>>>> required on the sabbath ...
>>>>
>>>> If that is allowed, it raises the prospect of something like dimmer
>>>> switch that varies the brightness of a light from imperceptibly dim to
>>>> full brightness, without it ever being fully off. It would meet the
>>>> technical requirement of not turning something on or off, while
>>>> funcionally achieving exactly that (which seems to be the way these
>>>> things are being treated).
>>>>
>>>
>>> If one is reduced to that sort of nit-picking to avoid the consequences
>>> of one's religious beliefs, I can't see that one's dedication to the
>>> religion is that sincere.
>>>
>>
>> It's just an intellectual exercise to demonstrate their total commitment:
>> devise and memorise a series of complicated, silly rules, then come up with
>> clever workarounds.
>>
>> I came across another example at the Golan Heights winery. Wine is a
>> fundamentally kosher product, but to get the rabbinical seal of approval
>> (without which no kosher establishment could purchase it), no-one who isn't
>> a sufficiently orthodox Jew can have any contact with it during the
>> production process. Most large hotels, and many restaurants, in Israel are
>> kosher, so that seal of approval is essential.
>>
>> The winery was owned by a Californian wine maker, who was a liberal Jew,
>> and therefore not allowed to be physically involved with the production. So
>> he had to create an inner, glass-walled zone where all the production
>> happened, and where only Orthodox Jews could step, and an outer zone for
>> anyone else. Those Orthodox Jewish workers knew nothing about wine
>> production, so he had to teach them everything, and direct the process,
>> without entering the production zone himself.
>
> Do they still have the system where each restaurant must be either meat-
> free or dairy-free, because the two must not be mixed?

Absolutely — that's one of the cardinal principles of kosher food. In
orthodox households, they have to have completely duplicated dishes,
utensils, cupboards, plates, etc, so that there's no possibility of mixing
meat and dairy ingredients.

> When eating out
> in Israel, it was normal to order just the main course in a dairy-free
> restaurant then move next door for a creamy but vegetarian dessert.

Yup. The silly thing is that the meat restaurant probably offers things
like dairy-free icecream and cakes, and the vegetarian restaurant will have
pretend-meat main courses.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>> On 01/12/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 01/12/2023 08:10, Bob wrote:
>>>>> On 30.11.23 13:34, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>>> GB wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's nothing to stop the orthodox leaving a light on overnight if
>>>>>>> there's a need.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've heard of some lights which have a shutter instead of a switch, so
>>>>>> you can leave it turned on, and then open/close the shutter as
>>>>>> required on the sabbath ...
>>>>>
>>>>> If that is allowed, it raises the prospect of something like dimmer
>>>>> switch that varies the brightness of a light from imperceptibly dim to
>>>>> full brightness, without it ever being fully off. It would meet the
>>>>> technical requirement of not turning something on or off, while
>>>>> funcionally achieving exactly that (which seems to be the way these
>>>>> things are being treated).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If one is reduced to that sort of nit-picking to avoid the consequences
>>>> of one's religious beliefs, I can't see that one's dedication to the
>>>> religion is that sincere.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's just an intellectual exercise to demonstrate their total commitment:
>>> devise and memorise a series of complicated, silly rules, then come up with
>>> clever workarounds.
>>>
>>> I came across another example at the Golan Heights winery. Wine is a
>>> fundamentally kosher product, but to get the rabbinical seal of approval
>>> (without which no kosher establishment could purchase it), no-one who isn't
>>> a sufficiently orthodox Jew can have any contact with it during the
>>> production process. Most large hotels, and many restaurants, in Israel are
>>> kosher, so that seal of approval is essential.
>>>
>>> The winery was owned by a Californian wine maker, who was a liberal Jew,
>>> and therefore not allowed to be physically involved with the production. So
>>> he had to create an inner, glass-walled zone where all the production
>>> happened, and where only Orthodox Jews could step, and an outer zone for
>>> anyone else. Those Orthodox Jewish workers knew nothing about wine
>>> production, so he had to teach them everything, and direct the process,
>>> without entering the production zone himself.
>>
>> Do they still have the system where each restaurant must be either meat-
>> free or dairy-free, because the two must not be mixed?
>
> Absolutely — that's one of the cardinal principles of kosher food. In
> orthodox households, they have to have completely duplicated dishes,
> utensils, cupboards, plates, etc, so that there's no possibility of mixing
> meat and dairy ingredients.

An observant Jewish household I know has 4 sets of crockery and cutlery to
cover all occasions during the year.

>> When eating out
>> in Israel, it was normal to order just the main course in a dairy-free
>> restaurant then move next door for a creamy but vegetarian dessert.
>
> Yup. The silly thing is that the meat restaurant probably offers things
> like dairy-free icecream and cakes, and the vegetarian restaurant will have
> pretend-meat main courses.

I’d noticed this phenomenon when dining out with (almost non-observant)
Jewish Israelis but I hadn’t clocked the reason. There’s clearly a
cultural hangover there. I also wondered if the lack of washing up liquid
and, indeed, washing up bowls was also some kind of cultural hangover; the
people I know always wash up under running water with thick, sticky soapy
stuff. I wondered aloud whether it was a regional thing, given that
Muslims also tend to wash in running water whenever possible, but they
hadn’t thought about it that way.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

I'm fascinated by this thread, with a load of train nerds scoffing at
other people's religious eccentricities. Pot, kettle, etc.

On 01/12/2023 10:44, Certes wrote:
> On 01/12/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 01/12/2023 08:10, Bob wrote:
>>>> On 30.11.23 13:34, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>> GB wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There's nothing to stop the orthodox leaving a light on overnight if
>>>>>> there's a need.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've heard of some lights which have a shutter instead of a switch, so
>>>>> you can leave it turned on, and then open/close the shutter as
>>>>> required on the sabbath ...
>>>>
>>>> If that is allowed, it raises the prospect of something like dimmer
>>>> switch that varies the brightness of a light from imperceptibly dim to
>>>> full brightness, without it ever being fully off. It would meet the
>>>> technical requirement of not turning something on or off, while
>>>> funcionally achieving exactly that (which seems to be the way these
>>>> things are being treated).
>>>>
>>>
>>> If one is reduced to that sort of nit-picking to avoid the consequences
>>> of one's religious beliefs, I can't see that one's dedication to the
>>> religion is that sincere.
>>>
>>
>> It's just an intellectual exercise to demonstrate their total commitment:
>> devise and memorise a series of complicated, silly rules, then come up
>> with
>> clever workarounds.
>>
>> I came across another example at the Golan Heights winery. Wine is a
>> fundamentally kosher product, but to get the rabbinical seal of approval
>> (without which no kosher establishment could purchase it), no-one who
>> isn't
>> a sufficiently orthodox Jew can have any contact with it during the
>> production process. Most large hotels, and many restaurants, in Israel
>> are
>> kosher, so that seal of approval is essential.
>>
>> The winery was owned by a Californian wine maker, who was a liberal Jew,
>> and therefore not allowed to be physically involved with the
>> production. So
>> he had to create an inner, glass-walled zone where all the production
>> happened, and where only Orthodox Jews could step, and an outer zone for
>> anyone else. Those Orthodox Jewish workers knew nothing about wine
>> production, so he had to teach them everything, and direct the process,
>> without entering the production zone himself.
>
> Do they still have the system where each restaurant must be either meat-
> free or dairy-free, because the two must not be mixed?  When eating out
> in Israel, it was normal to order just the main course in a dairy-free
> restaurant then move next door for a creamy but vegetarian dessert.

Well, that's half of French cuisine out the window then.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:
> I'm fascinated by this thread, with a load of train nerds scoffing at
> other people's religious eccentricities. Pot, kettle, etc.

[Hand goes up at the back of the class] Please, sir, I’m not scoffing.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

GB wrote:

> I'm fascinated by this thread, with a load of train nerds scoffing at
> other people's religious eccentricities. Pot, kettle, etc.

Train nerds? Here? <looks around> Nope, ain't nobody here but us chickens!