On 11/10/2023 10:30, MikeS wrote:
> On 11/10/2023 10:11, Woody wrote:
>> On Wed 11/10/2023 10:03, Davey wrote:
>>> On 11 Oct 2023 08:28:47 GMT
>>> "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/10/2023 in message <ug5l7k$1nl72$1@dont-email.me> Davey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 07:59:33 +0100
>>>>> Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> A friend in a rural location has been quoted £1,030,689.70 for FTTP.
>>>>>> When Openreach discontinue his POTS service will they be obliged to
>>>>>> provide him with an alternative voice service?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's very little mobile coverage at his house - it's just about
>>>>>> possible to make a call when hanging out of the window of an
>>>>>> upstairs bedroom.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I found this, but I'm still confused:
>>>>> https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-telecoms-and-internet/advice-for-consumers/broadband-uso-need-to-know
>>>>
>>>> It seems to say that you are only responsible for the excess over
>>>> £3,400 of the cost of getting a "decent" broadband service. That will
>>>> help the OP's friend a bit :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> That what was i got out of it, too, but it seemed a bit useless! £3,400
>>> off a bill of £1,030,690. Bargain! (For Openreach).
>>> We need a better answer.
>>>
>>
>> What odds BT leave it as a VDSL FTTC circuit?
>>
> Almost certain.
> This thread is another example of confusion between removing POTS
> (analogue services) and removing every (copper) wire on the system.

He doesn't say he has FTTC now. If he currently has FTTC then £1M for
FTTP is incredulous.

Dave

On 11/10/2023 09:02, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 11/10/2023 in message <ug5h54$1mqpt$1@dont-email.me> Graham J wrote:
>
>> A friend in a rural location has been quoted £1,030,689.70 for FTTP.
>> When Openreach discontinue his POTS service will they be obliged to
>> provide him with an alternative voice service?
>>
>> There's very little mobile coverage at his house - it's just about
>> possible to make a call when hanging out of the window of an upstairs
>> bedroom.
>
> Makes my bill look reasonable!
>
> Is there some form of satellite option available?
>

There are satellite services, for both phone and internet, but they are
not cheap. Until recently geostationary satellites were used for
internet but because they are in a high orbit you get high latency.

Multiple low-orbit satellites as used by starlink get round this but not
cheap...

Dave

On 11/10/2023 11:26, Graham J wrote:
> Woody wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>
>> What odds BT leave it as a VDSL FTTC circuit?
>>
>
> The landline is 12km to the exchange.  No VDSL, no ADSL.  Dial-up at
> about 2 kbits/sec did work, in the past.
>
In that case you need to provide more information about the specific
circumstances in order to asses the best solution. Eg is this an
isolated house at least 5km from any other property with literally a
single, unbroken (no cabinets etc) copper wire between it and the
exchange 12km away?

On 11/10/2023 10:11, Woody wrote:
> What odds BT leave it as a VDSL FTTC circuit?

Always intrigued me that someone with a business will accept having to
pay the electricity company for connecting to their premises with the
appropriate capacity, similarly for water and sewage but expect BT to
provide as high a capacity as they want at no extra charge.

MikeS wrote:
> On 11/10/2023 11:26, Graham J wrote:
>> Woody wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>
>>> What odds BT leave it as a VDSL FTTC circuit?
>>>
>>
>> The landline is 12km to the exchange.  No VDSL, no ADSL.  Dial-up at
>> about 2 kbits/sec did work, in the past.
>>
> In that case you need to provide more information about the specific
> circumstances in order to asses the best solution. Eg is this an
> isolated house at least 5km from any other property with literally a
> single, unbroken (no cabinets etc) copper wire between it and the
> exchange 12km away?

Single isolated house - but another dwelling also unable to get
broadband about 1km distant.

Copper pair goes underground - courtesy of farmer with moling tool some
50 years ago - to a village some distance away. No idea of actual route
after that.

--
Graham J

Am 11.10.2023 um 07:59:33 Uhr schrieb Graham J:

> When Openreach discontinue his POTS service will they be obliged to
> provide him with an alternative voice service?

Are they really discontinuing it or do they replace it with MSAN POTS
line cards, so you can still use POTS, but not with the normal digital
(mostly ISDN) telephone exchange´s POTS ports?

I heard that rumor of UK too, in Germany Deutsche Telekom operates such
a service, although they don't advertise it.

Am 11.10.2023 um 04:56:14 Uhr schrieb notya...@gmail.com:

> AIUI BT would have to replace PSTN phones with something, but not
> necessarily DSL.

You can still use them with a small telephone exchange in your home.
Many routers already include it.
You maybe need an adapter to connect phones without an RJ11 plug.

JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 11/10/2023 08:21, SH wrote:
> > I wonder if a directional aerial at chimney stack height pointed at a
> > telecoms mast and then fed into a 4g router and a VOIP account set up
> > might be a viable option?
>
>
> A "passive repeater", it is used sometimes - there was no mobile signal
> in a local underground bunker so they put an antenna on the surface
> connected by low loss feeder to a home-made antenna in letter tray down
> below. People left their mobile phones in the tray and they would
> receive text messages or perhaps it would show someone had attempted to
> call the mobile. They could then go up above ground and get the message
> or make the call.

You can do that, but probably better if you can be selective about mobile
contract is to pick one with wifi calling. Then 4G router on a mast,
connected to a wifi network in the house. You can do VOIP to wired or
cordless phones, and mobiles can use wifi calling to make phone calls using
the wifi network (which happens to go over 4G data) rather than doing 4G
themselves.

A variation of same would be a microwave link to someone who has decent
broadband.

Theo

On 11/10/2023 13:25, JMB99 wrote:
>
> Always intrigued me that someone with a business will accept having to
> pay the electricity company for connecting to their premises with the
> appropriate capacity, similarly for water and sewage but expect BT to
> provide as high a capacity as they want at no extra charge.

The point at issue is not that this is a new connection, rather that he
has a working connection already, but BT wish to remove the service over
that connection, and therefore it should be up to them to provide a
suitable replacement. I believe this to have happened locally less than
a mile away from me. A local landline user complained to BT and
threatened to migrate to Highland Wireless, so BT gave him a mobile
connection as 'back-up', which effectively means that, because the
landline is so piss-poor, he is permanently connecting via mobile.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> The point at issue is not that this is a new connection, rather that he
> has a working connection already, but BT wish to remove the service over
> that connection, and therefore it should be up to them to provide a
> suitable replacement. I believe this to have happened locally less than
> a mile away from me. A local landline user complained to BT and
> threatened to migrate to Highland Wireless, so BT gave him a mobile
> connection as 'back-up', which effectively means that, because the
> landline is so piss-poor, he is permanently connecting via mobile.

BT offer that as a service: DSL + 4G backup. I think the problem here is
the OP's friend can't even get any kind of DSL, so BT won't sell them the
DSL+backup service.

(According to the OP, BT are not proposing withdrawing the connection: they
have said the connection will remain)

Although it may be that a mobile contract from whichever operator has best
signal comes in at a similar price to the BT broadband offer, especially if
not a huge amount of data is required on it. It may be that BT/EE isn't the
operator with the best signal for the site.

Theo

On 11/10/2023 13:49, Graham J wrote:
>
> Single isolated house - but another dwelling also unable to get broadband
> about 1km distant.
>
> Copper pair goes underground - courtesy of farmer with moling tool some 50
> years ago - to a village some distance away.  No idea of actual route after
> that.

This is similar to B4RN, but I assume your friend is not in their one of
their areas.

On Wed 11/10/2023 14:18, Theo wrote:
> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 11/10/2023 08:21, SH wrote:
>>> I wonder if a directional aerial at chimney stack height pointed at a
>>> telecoms mast and then fed into a 4g router and a VOIP account set up
>>> might be a viable option?
>>
>>
>> A "passive repeater", it is used sometimes - there was no mobile signal
>> in a local underground bunker so they put an antenna on the surface
>> connected by low loss feeder to a home-made antenna in letter tray down
>> below. People left their mobile phones in the tray and they would
>> receive text messages or perhaps it would show someone had attempted to
>> call the mobile. They could then go up above ground and get the message
>> or make the call.
>
> You can do that, but probably better if you can be selective about mobile
> contract is to pick one with wifi calling. Then 4G router on a mast,
> connected to a wifi network in the house. You can do VOIP to wired or
> cordless phones, and mobiles can use wifi calling to make phone calls using
> the wifi network (which happens to go over 4G data) rather than doing 4G
> themselves.
>
> A variation of same would be a microwave link to someone who has decent
> broadband.
>
> Theo

And you can have a licence-free link in the 5GHz wi-fi band without a
licence. The CPE510 by TP-Link is a superb piece of kit, doesn't cost a
fortune, and line of sight can theoretically do 5km.

Nick Finnigan wrote:

[snip]

>
>  This is similar to B4RN, but I assume your friend is not in their one
> of their areas.
>

Correct.

--
Graham J

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 13:04:06 +0100
David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:

> There are satellite services, for both phone and internet, but they
> are not cheap. Until recently geostationary satellites were used for
> internet but because they are in a high orbit you get high latency.
>
> Multiple low-orbit satellites as used by starlink get round this but
> not cheap...
And if Elon doesn't cut you off!

--
Davey.

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:
> Nick Finnigan wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >
> >  This is similar to B4RN, but I assume your friend is not in their one
> > of their areas.
> >
>
> Correct.

There is a B4SN for South Norfolk, but am I right we're talking Lincolnshire
here?

Any coverage from UPP:
https://www.upp.com/portal/locations
or Quantum:
https://www.quantumbroadband.co.uk/
?

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 07:59:33 +0100, Graham J wrote:
> A friend in a rural location has been quoted £1,030,689.70 for FTTP.
> When Openreach discontinue his POTS service will they be obliged to
> provide him with an alternative voice service?

Yes - but it seems that they're not discontinuing POTS as soon as you
might think. In a discussion with our suppliers about a similar situation,
they've told us that Openreach has a new product in the pipeline that's
basically a copper pair to a VOIP adaptor in the exchange - so from the
end user point of view, a POTS line the same as they always had. It will
only be available if they can't offer you anything else.

In fact it seems that Openreach aren't going to be offering multiple
options at all in future. If FTTP is available, that's all you'll be able
to get. If not, but SOGEA FTTC is available, that's all you can get. And
if that's not available, they work down the list of "transitional"
products.

Mike
..

On 11/10/2023 09:02, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 11/10/2023 in message <ug5h54$1mqpt$1@dont-email.me> Graham J wrote:
>
>> A friend in a rural location has been quoted £1,030,689.70 for FTTP.
>> When Openreach discontinue his POTS service will they be obliged to
>> provide him with an alternative voice service?
>>
>> There's very little mobile coverage at his house - it's just about
>> possible to make a call when hanging out of the window of an upstairs
>> bedroom.
>
> Makes my bill look reasonable!
>
> Is there some form of satellite option available?
>

That would be Starlink by Elon Musk then....

On 11/10/2023 18:44, Mike Humphrey wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 07:59:33 +0100, Graham J wrote:
>> A friend in a rural location has been quoted £1,030,689.70 for FTTP.
>> When Openreach discontinue his POTS service will they be obliged to
>> provide him with an alternative voice service?
>
> Yes - but it seems that they're not discontinuing POTS as soon as you
> might think. In a discussion with our suppliers about a similar situation,
> they've told us that Openreach has a new product in the pipeline that's
> basically a copper pair to a VOIP adaptor in the exchange - so from the
> end user point of view, a POTS line the same as they always had. It will
> only be available if they can't offer you anything else.
>
> In fact it seems that Openreach aren't going to be offering multiple
> options at all in future. If FTTP is available, that's all you'll be able
> to get. If not, but SOGEA FTTC is available, that's all you can get. And
> if that's not available, they work down the list of "transitional"
> products.
>

That is not the future, that is now.

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/09/openreach-stops-selling-new-uk-analogue-copper-phone-lines.html

or short URL

https://tinyurl.com/4uahfymz

> Mike
> .
>

Dave

Mike Humphrey wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 07:59:33 +0100, Graham J wrote:
>> A friend in a rural location has been quoted £1,030,689.70 for FTTP.
>> When Openreach discontinue his POTS service will they be obliged to
>> provide him with an alternative voice service?
>
> Yes - but it seems that they're not discontinuing POTS as soon as you
> might think. In a discussion with our suppliers about a similar situation,
> they've told us that Openreach has a new product in the pipeline that's
> basically a copper pair to a VOIP adaptor in the exchange - so from the
> end user point of view, a POTS line the same as they always had. It will
> only be available if they can't offer you anything else.
>
> In fact it seems that Openreach aren't going to be offering multiple
> options at all in future. If FTTP is available, that's all you'll be able
> to get. If not, but SOGEA FTTC is available, that's all you can get. And
> if that's not available, they work down the list of "transitional"
> products.

The idea that Openreach has is that when they completely discontinue
POTS there will no longer be any need for an "Exchange", so those -
often town centre - buildings can be sold off for profit.

So "a copper pair to a VOIP adaptor" I understand, but where will it be
placed when there is no longer an exchange?

My friend has a landline phone service. Is there still a USO which
obliges Openreach to supply a voice service to a new customer in a
similar impossibly rural situation? How would that be implemented?

--
Graham J

On 12/10/2023 08:32, Graham J wrote:
> Mike Humphrey wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 07:59:33 +0100, Graham J wrote:
>>> A friend in a rural location has been quoted £1,030,689.70 for FTTP.
>>> When Openreach discontinue his POTS service will they be obliged to
>>> provide him with an alternative voice service?
>>
>> Yes - but it seems that they're not discontinuing POTS as soon as you
>> might think. In a discussion with our suppliers about a similar
>> situation,
>> they've told us that Openreach has a new product in the pipeline that's
>> basically a copper pair to a VOIP adaptor in the exchange - so from the
>> end user point of view, a POTS line the same as they always had. It will
>> only be available if they can't offer you anything else.
>>
>> In fact it seems that Openreach aren't going to be offering multiple
>> options at all in future. If FTTP is available, that's all you'll be able
>> to get. If not, but SOGEA FTTC is available, that's all you can get. And
>> if that's not available, they work down the list of "transitional"
>> products.
>
>
> The idea that Openreach has is that when they completely discontinue
> POTS there will no longer be any need for an "Exchange", so those -
> often town centre - buildings can be sold off for profit.
>

They say they will retain 1000 buildings.

> So "a copper pair to a VOIP adaptor" I understand, but where will it be
> placed when there is no longer an exchange?
>

See above

> My friend has a landline phone service.
> Is there still a USO which
> obliges Openreach to supply a voice service to a new customer in a
> similar impossibly rural situation?  How would that be implemented?
>
>

OpenReach say they can deliver VOIP over FTTP over 60km. The USO used to
specify "phone service" not how it was delivered...
I don't believe there is still a USO for a phone line...

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-telecoms-and-internet/information-for-industry/telecoms-competition-regulation/general-conditions-of-entitlement/universal-service-obligation

or

https://tinyurl.com/2tawpd4v

Dave

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:
> The idea that Openreach has is that when they completely discontinue
> POTS there will no longer be any need for an "Exchange", so those -
> often town centre - buildings can be sold off for profit.
>
> So "a copper pair to a VOIP adaptor" I understand, but where will it be
> placed when there is no longer an exchange?

They can install roadside cabinets. The FTTC cabinets they have installed
nationwide in the last decade have the DSLAM in them to provide broadband to
the line. In a new cabinet either the same DSLAM or a different unit would
provide this VOIP adapter, with fibre backhauled from the cabinet. Of
course the line length would be too long for FTTC, but if POTS works to the
exchange it should equally work if they put the adapter in the cabinet
instead.

OR did this when discontinuing exchange-only lines. They installed
cabinets in the street directly outside the exchange to terminate EO lines
and provide them with broadband:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/3op1EYEGTkXu6xRW8

Theo

On Thursday, 12 October 2023 at 08:33:05 UTC+1, Graham J wrote:
> Mike Humphrey wrote:
> > On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 07:59:33 +0100, Graham J wrote:
> >> A friend in a rural location has been quoted £1,030,689.70 for FTTP.
> >> When Openreach discontinue his POTS service will they be obliged to
> >> provide him with an alternative voice service?
> >
> > Yes - but it seems that they're not discontinuing POTS as soon as you
> > might think. In a discussion with our suppliers about a similar situation,
> > they've told us that Openreach has a new product in the pipeline that's
> > basically a copper pair to a VOIP adaptor in the exchange - so from the
> > end user point of view, a POTS line the same as they always had. It will
> > only be available if they can't offer you anything else.
> >
> > In fact it seems that Openreach aren't going to be offering multiple
> > options at all in future. If FTTP is available, that's all you'll be able
> > to get. If not, but SOGEA FTTC is available, that's all you can get. And
> > if that's not available, they work down the list of "transitional"
> > products.
> The idea that Openreach has is that when they completely discontinue
> POTS there will no longer be any need for an "Exchange", so those -
> often town centre - buildings can be sold off for profit.
>
> So "a copper pair to a VOIP adaptor" I understand, but where will it be
> placed when there is no longer an exchange?

Er - in a cabinet - a al FTTC!

>
> My friend has a landline phone service. Is there still a USO which
> obliges Openreach to supply a voice service to a new customer in a
> similar impossibly rural situation? How would that be implemented?
>

Voip. There might still be a wire, but no exchange and no -48V or ringing.....

>
> --
> Graham J

Graham J wrote:

> there will no longer be any need for an "Exchange", so those - often
> town centre - buildings can be sold off for profit.

But it won't be openreach's profit, they don't own the buildings, they
will be able to stop paying rent from 2030.

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 08:32:44 +0100, Graham J wrote:
> The idea that Openreach has is that when they completely discontinue
> POTS there will no longer be any need for an "Exchange", so those -
> often town centre - buildings can be sold off for profit.

The exchanges aren't just city centre buildings. Here's an Openreach
exchange - https://maps.app.goo.gl/N8cVSV9pJcVQhs9p7 - how much do you
think that will sell for? There are also smaller buildings, which I
suppose are technically concentrators rather than exchanges, like this one
https://maps.app.goo.gl/KP5nwBhx5HFgeW1W7 . A few of these will be
retained if it's easier than installing many miles of fibre.

The plan is that they will all go eventually. But it won't be by the 2025
headline date.

> My friend has a landline phone service. Is there still a USO which
> obliges Openreach to supply a voice service to a new customer in a
> similar impossibly rural situation? How would that be implemented?

I believe so, yes. It will be implemented using one of the various
"temporary" transition products, until FTTP arrives.

Mike

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 21:40:42 +0100, David Wade wrote:
> That is not the future, that is now.
>
> https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/09/openreach-stops-selling-
new-uk-analogue-copper-phone-lines.html

That article isn't entirely accurate. While the stop sell is now national,
it doesn't apply to every single premises. The full story is at
<https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/the-all-ip-programme/
stopsell-updates> - WLR3 PSTN lines are still available to order until the
end of March 2024 in some cases. And it wouldn't surprise me if that date
slips further.

Mike