I was visiting a Premier Inn (Hub) in London last week when I noticed
a Schuko socket as well as a UK 13 amp socket. We discussed this a
long time ago, when there were mixed opinions whether this is
permitted by UK regulations. What form of circuit breaker would be
required? Would 16 amps be okay or would they want to limit it to 2 or
3 amps (Europlug I believe is 2.5 amps)?

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> I was visiting a Premier Inn (Hub) in London last week when I noticed
> a Schuko socket as well as a UK 13 amp socket. We discussed this a
> long time ago, when there were mixed opinions whether this is
> permitted by UK regulations. What form of circuit breaker would be
> required? Would 16 amps be okay or would they want to limit it to 2 or
> 3 amps (Europlug I believe is 2.5 amps)?

AIUI under EU harmonisation you are/were allowed to install hardware from a
different electrical code, as long as you follow that code.

In that case you're allowed a Schuko but it would probably designed to be on
a 16A radial circuit, which also happens to be the current rating of the
Schuko socket.

If you plug a Europlug into a Schuko you're only allowed 2.5A, but that
should be limited by the design of the appliance on the end of the Europlug.
(ie you won't find a toaster with a Europlug)

They could perhaps add a circuit protection device lower than the Schuko
will handle, but then somebody has to reset it if it trips. Since travel
irons and hairdryers aren't uncommon, I'd guess they probably give it the
full 16A supply.

Theo

On Mon 22/04/2024 10:49, Theo wrote:
> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> I was visiting a Premier Inn (Hub) in London last week when I noticed
>> a Schuko socket as well as a UK 13 amp socket. We discussed this a
>> long time ago, when there were mixed opinions whether this is
>> permitted by UK regulations. What form of circuit breaker would be
>> required? Would 16 amps be okay or would they want to limit it to 2 or
>> 3 amps (Europlug I believe is 2.5 amps)?
>
> AIUI under EU harmonisation you are/were allowed to install hardware from a
> different electrical code, as long as you follow that code.
>
> In that case you're allowed a Schuko but it would probably designed to be on
> a 16A radial circuit, which also happens to be the current rating of the
> Schuko socket.
>
> If you plug a Europlug into a Schuko you're only allowed 2.5A, but that
> should be limited by the design of the appliance on the end of the Europlug.
> (ie you won't find a toaster with a Europlug)
>
> They could perhaps add a circuit protection device lower than the Schuko
> will handle, but then somebody has to reset it if it trips. Since travel
> irons and hairdryers aren't uncommon, I'd guess they probably give it the
> full 16A supply.
>

Don't forget a Schuko socket would have to be fed from a double pole
circuit breaker as Schuko is not polarity concious.

On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 15:59:46 +0100, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>On Mon 22/04/2024 10:49, Theo wrote:
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> I was visiting a Premier Inn (Hub) in London last week when I noticed
>>> a Schuko socket as well as a UK 13 amp socket. We discussed this a
>>> long time ago, when there were mixed opinions whether this is
>>> permitted by UK regulations. What form of circuit breaker would be
>>> required? Would 16 amps be okay or would they want to limit it to 2 or
>>> 3 amps (Europlug I believe is 2.5 amps)?
>>
>> AIUI under EU harmonisation you are/were allowed to install hardware from a
>> different electrical code, as long as you follow that code.
>>
>> In that case you're allowed a Schuko but it would probably designed to be on
>> a 16A radial circuit, which also happens to be the current rating of the
>> Schuko socket.
>>
>> If you plug a Europlug into a Schuko you're only allowed 2.5A, but that
>> should be limited by the design of the appliance on the end of the Europlug.
>> (ie you won't find a toaster with a Europlug)
>>
>> They could perhaps add a circuit protection device lower than the Schuko
>> will handle, but then somebody has to reset it if it trips. Since travel
>> irons and hairdryers aren't uncommon, I'd guess they probably give it the
>> full 16A supply.
>
>Don't forget a Schuko socket would have to be fed from a double pole
>circuit breaker as Schuko is not polarity concious.
>
But surely the installer knows which side is live and this will be the
one with the fuse? Why would the neutral side require a circuit
breaker?

On Mon 22/04/2024 16:28, Scott wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 15:59:46 +0100, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon 22/04/2024 10:49, Theo wrote:
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> I was visiting a Premier Inn (Hub) in London last week when I noticed
>>>> a Schuko socket as well as a UK 13 amp socket. We discussed this a
>>>> long time ago, when there were mixed opinions whether this is
>>>> permitted by UK regulations. What form of circuit breaker would be
>>>> required? Would 16 amps be okay or would they want to limit it to 2 or
>>>> 3 amps (Europlug I believe is 2.5 amps)?
>>>
>>> AIUI under EU harmonisation you are/were allowed to install hardware from a
>>> different electrical code, as long as you follow that code.
>>>
>>> In that case you're allowed a Schuko but it would probably designed to be on
>>> a 16A radial circuit, which also happens to be the current rating of the
>>> Schuko socket.
>>>
>>> If you plug a Europlug into a Schuko you're only allowed 2.5A, but that
>>> should be limited by the design of the appliance on the end of the Europlug.
>>> (ie you won't find a toaster with a Europlug)
>>>
>>> They could perhaps add a circuit protection device lower than the Schuko
>>> will handle, but then somebody has to reset it if it trips. Since travel
>>> irons and hairdryers aren't uncommon, I'd guess they probably give it the
>>> full 16A supply.
>>
>> Don't forget a Schuko socket would have to be fed from a double pole
>> circuit breaker as Schuko is not polarity concious.
>>
> But surely the installer knows which side is live and this will be the
> one with the fuse? Why would the neutral side require a circuit
> breaker?

Because the plug can be inserted either way around. IME sparkies in
Europe never look at any markings for polarity (are there are markings
on the back of Schuko sockets to indicate polarity?) even on CEE17 blue
plugs and sockets!! The only plugs that are protected from reversal are
the French higher current plugs which have an earth pin - but it still
doesn't mean that it is correctly wired!

On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 16:53:04 +0100, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>On Mon 22/04/2024 16:28, Scott wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 15:59:46 +0100, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon 22/04/2024 10:49, Theo wrote:
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> I was visiting a Premier Inn (Hub) in London last week when I noticed
>>>>> a Schuko socket as well as a UK 13 amp socket. We discussed this a
>>>>> long time ago, when there were mixed opinions whether this is
>>>>> permitted by UK regulations. What form of circuit breaker would be
>>>>> required? Would 16 amps be okay or would they want to limit it to 2 or
>>>>> 3 amps (Europlug I believe is 2.5 amps)?
>>>>
>>>> AIUI under EU harmonisation you are/were allowed to install hardware from a
>>>> different electrical code, as long as you follow that code.
>>>>
>>>> In that case you're allowed a Schuko but it would probably designed to be on
>>>> a 16A radial circuit, which also happens to be the current rating of the
>>>> Schuko socket.
>>>>
>>>> If you plug a Europlug into a Schuko you're only allowed 2.5A, but that
>>>> should be limited by the design of the appliance on the end of the Europlug.
>>>> (ie you won't find a toaster with a Europlug)
>>>>
>>>> They could perhaps add a circuit protection device lower than the Schuko
>>>> will handle, but then somebody has to reset it if it trips. Since travel
>>>> irons and hairdryers aren't uncommon, I'd guess they probably give it the
>>>> full 16A supply.
>>>
>>> Don't forget a Schuko socket would have to be fed from a double pole
>>> circuit breaker as Schuko is not polarity concious.
>>>
>> But surely the installer knows which side is live and this will be the
>> one with the fuse? Why would the neutral side require a circuit
>> breaker?
>
>Because the plug can be inserted either way around. IME sparkies in
>Europe never look at any markings for polarity (are there are markings
>on the back of Schuko sockets to indicate polarity?) even on CEE17 blue
>plugs and sockets!! The only plugs that are protected from reversal are
>the French higher current plugs which have an earth pin - but it still
>doesn't mean that it is correctly wired!
>
I don't follow this. Whatever way you look at it, only one recepticle
is live - presumably with a brown wire - so as long as this is fused,
it should make no difference which way round the plug is inserted?

When I did one, I made the right side the live. It did not occur to me
to provide a fuse on the left side. Surely as long as the colour
convention of the cable is followed, only one circuit breaker is ever
needed?

On 22.04.2024 um 10:36 Uhr Scott wrote:

> I was visiting a Premier Inn (Hub) in London last week when I noticed
> a Schuko socket as well as a UK 13 amp socket. We discussed this a
> long time ago, when there were mixed opinions whether this is
> permitted by UK regulations. What form of circuit breaker would be
> required? Would 16 amps be okay or would they want to limit it to 2 or
> 3 amps (Europlug I believe is 2.5 amps)?

Schuko sockets are normally allowed to transfer 16 Amp, but not
permanent. Contact are becoming hot and can melt plastic.
Older ones only 10 Amps.
You will find information on the backside in most cases.

--
kind regards
Marco

Send spam to 1713774963muell@cartoonies.org

On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 16:19:31 +0200, Marco Moock
<mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:

>On 22.04.2024 um 10:36 Uhr Scott wrote:
>
>> I was visiting a Premier Inn (Hub) in London last week when I noticed
>> a Schuko socket as well as a UK 13 amp socket. We discussed this a
>> long time ago, when there were mixed opinions whether this is
>> permitted by UK regulations. What form of circuit breaker would be
>> required? Would 16 amps be okay or would they want to limit it to 2 or
>> 3 amps (Europlug I believe is 2.5 amps)?
>
>Schuko sockets are normally allowed to transfer 16 Amp, but not
>permanent. Contact are becoming hot and can melt plastic.
>Older ones only 10 Amps.
>You will find information on the backside in most cases.

Should Premier not include a safety warning then, explaining what the
Schuko socket can be used for?

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 16:19:31 +0200, Marco Moock
> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>
>> On 22.04.2024 um 10:36 Uhr Scott wrote:
>>
>>> I was visiting a Premier Inn (Hub) in London last week when I noticed
>>> a Schuko socket as well as a UK 13 amp socket. We discussed this a
>>> long time ago, when there were mixed opinions whether this is
>>> permitted by UK regulations. What form of circuit breaker would be
>>> required? Would 16 amps be okay or would they want to limit it to 2 or
>>> 3 amps (Europlug I believe is 2.5 amps)?
>>
>> Schuko sockets are normally allowed to transfer 16 Amp, but not
>> permanent. Contact are becoming hot and can melt plastic.
>> Older ones only 10 Amps.
>> You will find information on the backside in most cases.
>
> Should Premier not include a safety warning then, explaining what the
> Schuko socket can be used for?
>

Every Schuko socket I can find online from a reputable source is rated at
16A. You’d be hard pressed to find an appliance that exceeds 13A. Anyway,
the socket and its wiring should be protected by a suitable breaker. The
system designer would have to justify the safety of the installation, since
it deviates from the standard UK wiring regulations.

On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 14:55:11 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 16:19:31 +0200, Marco Moock
>> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>>
>>> On 22.04.2024 um 10:36 Uhr Scott wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was visiting a Premier Inn (Hub) in London last week when I noticed
>>>> a Schuko socket as well as a UK 13 amp socket. We discussed this a
>>>> long time ago, when there were mixed opinions whether this is
>>>> permitted by UK regulations. What form of circuit breaker would be
>>>> required? Would 16 amps be okay or would they want to limit it to 2 or
>>>> 3 amps (Europlug I believe is 2.5 amps)?
>>>
>>> Schuko sockets are normally allowed to transfer 16 Amp, but not
>>> permanent. Contact are becoming hot and can melt plastic.
>>> Older ones only 10 Amps.
>>> You will find information on the backside in most cases.
>>
>> Should Premier not include a safety warning then, explaining what the
>> Schuko socket can be used for?
>
>Every Schuko socket I can find online from a reputable source is rated at
>16A. You’d be hard pressed to find an appliance that exceeds 13A. Anyway,
>the socket and its wiring should be protected by a suitable breaker. The
>system designer would have to justify the safety of the installation, since
>it deviates from the standard UK wiring regulations.

Thanks - that's what I thought.

On 24/04/2024 16:39, Scott wrote:

>> Every Schuko socket I can find online from a reputable source is rated at
>> 16A. You’d be hard pressed to find an appliance that exceeds 13A. Anyway,
>> the socket and its wiring should be protected by a suitable breaker. The
>> system designer would have to justify the safety of the installation, since
>> it deviates from the standard UK wiring regulations.
>
> Thanks - that's what I thought.

I write this message live from a hotel room (quite a large posh one, the
bathroom is huge and full of every cleansing luxury) on the European
mainland.

I've just taken a look in the 'CU' in the room.

Qty 3 10A single pole breakers, (seem to be for the lighting circuits)

Qty 15 16A single pole breakers (which seem to tally with about 15
Schuko wall sockets in the 'space'.

The whole lot is protected by a 30mA/40A double pole RCD

On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 17:42:14 +0100, Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com>
wrote:

>On 24/04/2024 16:39, Scott wrote:
>
>>> Every Schuko socket I can find online from a reputable source is rated at
>>> 16A. You’d be hard pressed to find an appliance that exceeds 13A. Anyway,
>>> the socket and its wiring should be protected by a suitable breaker. The
>>> system designer would have to justify the safety of the installation, since
>>> it deviates from the standard UK wiring regulations.
>>
>> Thanks - that's what I thought.
>
>I write this message live from a hotel room (quite a large posh one, the
>bathroom is huge and full of every cleansing luxury) on the European
>mainland.
>
>I've just taken a look in the 'CU' in the room.
>
>Qty 3 10A single pole breakers, (seem to be for the lighting circuits)
>
>Qty 15 16A single pole breakers (which seem to tally with about 15
>Schuko wall sockets in the 'space'.
>
>The whole lot is protected by a 30mA/40A double pole RCD

Thanks. I could not see any reason to protect the neutral side of the
socket even if polarity is reversible.

On 25/04/2024 17:47, Scott wrote:

> Thanks. I could not see any reason to protect the neutral side of the
> socket even if polarity is reversible.

Nor can I !

On Thu 25/04/2024 17:52, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 25/04/2024 17:47, Scott wrote:
>
>> Thanks. I could not see any reason to protect the neutral side of the
>> socket even if polarity is reversible.
>
> Nor can I !

Agreed - but they do!

Why do people need a 16A supply in their hotel room?

I often carry a lot of junk but never needed a 16A supply.

JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> Why do people need a 16A supply in their hotel room?
>
> I often carry a lot of junk but never needed a 16A supply.
>
>

A powerful hair dryer could pull 2kW, though not 16A. If you are going to
wire the circuit to cope with that you might as well wire and fuse for the
full 16A.

On 26/04/2024 06:57, Tweed wrote:
> A powerful hair dryer could pull 2kW, though not 16A. If you are going to
> wire the circuit to cope with that you might as well wire and fuse for the
> full 16A.

I thought the EU were going to ban 'powerful' hair dryers?

On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 08:51:54 +0100, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 26/04/2024 06:57, Tweed wrote:
>> A powerful hair dryer could pull 2kW, though not 16A. If you are going to
>> wire the circuit to cope with that you might as well wire and fuse for the
>> full 16A.
>
>I thought the EU were going to ban 'powerful' hair dryers?
>
Future sales maybe, but there is no prospect of 'banning' people from
using appliances they already own.

On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 09:36:52 +0100
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 08:51:54 +0100, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>
> >On 26/04/2024 06:57, Tweed wrote:
> >> A powerful hair dryer could pull 2kW, though not 16A. If you are
> >> going to wire the circuit to cope with that you might as well wire
> >> and fuse for the full 16A.
> >
> >I thought the EU were going to ban 'powerful' hair dryers?
> >
> Future sales maybe, but there is no prospect of 'banning' people from
> using appliances they already own.

You say that now....

--
Davey.

On 26/04/2024 08:51, JMB99 wrote:
> On 26/04/2024 06:57, Tweed wrote:
>> A powerful hair dryer could pull 2kW, though not 16A. If you are going to
>> wire the circuit to cope with that you might as well wire and fuse for
>> the
>> full 16A.
>
>
>
> I thought the EU were going to ban 'powerful' hair dryers?
>
>
>

along with powerful vacuum cleaners ?

Abandoned Trolley <fred@fred-smith.co.uk> wrote:
> On 26/04/2024 08:51, JMB99 wrote:
>> On 26/04/2024 06:57, Tweed wrote:
>>> A powerful hair dryer could pull 2kW, though not 16A. If you are going to
>>> wire the circuit to cope with that you might as well wire and fuse for
>>> the
>>> full 16A.
>>
>>
>>
>> I thought the EU were going to ban 'powerful' hair dryers?
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> along with powerful vacuum cleaners ?
>

The vacuum cleaner made some sense. Manufacturers of cheap machines were
increasing input power to compensate for poor design. As for hair dryers,
most of the input energy comes out as heat, which is wanted, less a little
bit in sound.

On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 10:07:00 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Abandoned Trolley <fred@fred-smith.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 26/04/2024 08:51, JMB99 wrote:
>>> On 26/04/2024 06:57, Tweed wrote:
>>>> A powerful hair dryer could pull 2kW, though not 16A. If you are going to
>>>> wire the circuit to cope with that you might as well wire and fuse for
>>>> the
>>>> full 16A.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I thought the EU were going to ban 'powerful' hair dryers?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> along with powerful vacuum cleaners ?
>>
>
>The vacuum cleaner made some sense. Manufacturers of cheap machines were
>increasing input power to compensate for poor design. As for hair dryers,
>most of the input energy comes out as heat, which is wanted, less a little
>bit in sound.

A piece of logic that people were quick to point out about kettles
too.

On 25/04/2024 18:31, Woody wrote:
> On Thu 25/04/2024 17:52, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 25/04/2024 17:47, Scott wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks. I could not see any reason to protect the neutral side of the
>>> socket even if polarity is reversible.
>>
>> Nor can I !
>
>
> Agreed - but they do!

Well, as I said, in the hotel room I was staying in, they don't

Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> wrote:
> On 25/04/2024 18:31, Woody wrote:
>> On Thu 25/04/2024 17:52, Mark Carver wrote:
>>> On 25/04/2024 17:47, Scott wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks. I could not see any reason to protect the neutral side of the
>>>> socket even if polarity is reversible.
>>>
>>> Nor can I !
>>
>>
>> Agreed - but they do!
>
> Well, as I said, in the hotel room I was staying in, they don't
>

You should double pole switch *after* any potential swapping of L & N, ie
after the plug, usually in the appliance. I suppose some electrical systems
might have both sides live, ie well above ground potential. I can see a
need to double pole switch those in the consumer unit.

On 28/04/2024 16:59, Tweed wrote:
> I suppose some electrical systems
> might have both sides live

I believe that is true of 240 volt outlets in the USA. These are used
for higher power devices. I've heard of them in the context of amateur
radio transmitters, but I assume they are rather more common than that,
in domestic systems.