On 28/04/2024 21:09, David Woolley wrote:
> On 28/04/2024 16:59, Tweed wrote:
>> I suppose some electrical systems
>> might have both sides live
>
>
> I believe that is true of 240 volt outlets in the USA.  These are used
> for higher power devices.  I've heard of them in the context of amateur
> radio transmitters, but I assume they are rather more common than that,
> in domestic systems.

In the US, 240 (or 220) outlets are used for cookers, large AC units,
clothes dryers, etc.

On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 21:20:22 +0100, S Viemeister
<firstname@lastname.oc.ku> wrote:

>On 28/04/2024 21:09, David Woolley wrote:
>> On 28/04/2024 16:59, Tweed wrote:
>>> I suppose some electrical systems
>>> might have both sides live
>>
>>
>> I believe that is true of 240 volt outlets in the USA.  These are used
>> for higher power devices.  I've heard of them in the context of amateur
>> radio transmitters, but I assume they are rather more common than that,
>> in domestic systems.
>
>In the US, 240 (or 220) outlets are used for cookers, large AC units,
>clothes dryers, etc.

Why not just use them for everything, as they are obviously more
efficient?

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 21:20:22 +0100, S Viemeister
> <firstname@lastname.oc.ku> wrote:
>
>> On 28/04/2024 21:09, David Woolley wrote:
>>> On 28/04/2024 16:59, Tweed wrote:
>>>> I suppose some electrical systems
>>>> might have both sides live
>>>
>>>
>>> I believe that is true of 240 volt outlets in the USA.  These are used
>>> for higher power devices.  I've heard of them in the context of amateur
>>> radio transmitters, but I assume they are rather more common than that,
>>> in domestic systems.
>>
>> In the US, 240 (or 220) outlets are used for cookers, large AC units,
>> clothes dryers, etc.
>
> Why not just use them for everything, as they are obviously more
> efficient?
>

Throwing away all your existing equipment would be unpopular.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 05:58:06 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 21:20:22 +0100, S Viemeister
> > <firstname@lastname.oc.ku> wrote:
> >
> >> On 28/04/2024 21:09, David Woolley wrote:
> >>> On 28/04/2024 16:59, Tweed wrote:
> >>>> I suppose some electrical systems
> >>>> might have both sides live
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I believe that is true of 240 volt outlets in the USA.  These are
> >>> used for higher power devices.  I've heard of them in the context
> >>> of amateur radio transmitters, but I assume they are rather more
> >>> common than that, in domestic systems.
> >>
> >> In the US, 240 (or 220) outlets are used for cookers, large AC
> >> units, clothes dryers, etc.
> >
> > Why not just use them for everything, as they are obviously more
> > efficient?
> >
>
> Throwing away all your existing equipment would be unpopular.
>

Indeed. Thinking of the reverse, how much effort and money would it
cost to change the whole of the UK over to 120 volts? Converting to
natural gas would be just a tiny fraction of that cost.

--
Davey.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 21:20:22 +0100, S Viemeister
> <firstname@lastname.oc.ku> wrote:
>
> >On 28/04/2024 21:09, David Woolley wrote:
> >> On 28/04/2024 16:59, Tweed wrote:
> >>> I suppose some electrical systems
> >>> might have both sides live
> >>
> >>
> >> I believe that is true of 240 volt outlets in the USA.  These are used
> >> for higher power devices.  I've heard of them in the context of amateur
> >> radio transmitters, but I assume they are rather more common than that,
> >> in domestic systems.
> >
> >In the US, 240 (or 220) outlets are used for cookers, large AC units,
> >clothes dryers, etc.
>
> Why not just use them for everything, as they are obviously more
> efficient?

Because 110v is rather less likely to kill you than 220v. Even the
220v outlets are only 110v to ground as have a centre-tap neutral.

It's a balance - slightly more complax wiring, slightly safer.

--
Chris Green
·

On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 05:58:06 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 21:20:22 +0100, S Viemeister
>> <firstname@lastname.oc.ku> wrote:
>>
>>> On 28/04/2024 21:09, David Woolley wrote:
>>>> On 28/04/2024 16:59, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> I suppose some electrical systems
>>>>> might have both sides live
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I believe that is true of 240 volt outlets in the USA.  These are used
>>>> for higher power devices.  I've heard of them in the context of amateur
>>>> radio transmitters, but I assume they are rather more common than that,
>>>> in domestic systems.
>>>
>>> In the US, 240 (or 220) outlets are used for cookers, large AC units,
>>> clothes dryers, etc.
>>
>> Why not just use them for everything, as they are obviously more
>> efficient?
>>
>Throwing away all your existing equipment would be unpopular.

Yes, I suppose so. It would mean a rewire to +120V/ -120V that would
not be backward compatible. I was forgetting about the neutral late a
night.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 09:23:28 +0100, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 21:20:22 +0100, S Viemeister
>> <firstname@lastname.oc.ku> wrote:
>>
>> >On 28/04/2024 21:09, David Woolley wrote:
>> >> On 28/04/2024 16:59, Tweed wrote:
>> >>> I suppose some electrical systems
>> >>> might have both sides live
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I believe that is true of 240 volt outlets in the USA.  These are used
>> >> for higher power devices.  I've heard of them in the context of amateur
>> >> radio transmitters, but I assume they are rather more common than that,
>> >> in domestic systems.
>> >
>> >In the US, 240 (or 220) outlets are used for cookers, large AC units,
>> >clothes dryers, etc.
>>
>> Why not just use them for everything, as they are obviously more
>> efficient?
>
>Because 110v is rather less likely to kill you than 220v. Even the
>220v outlets are only 110v to ground as have a centre-tap neutral.
>
>It's a balance - slightly more complax wiring, slightly safer.

My understanding is that the line voltage would remain at 110V just
that the two pins would be out of phase. Would it not be unlikely for
anyone to touch both at the same time? I believe we use that at
building sites with 55V on each side making a total of 110.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 09:23:28 +0100, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 21:20:22 +0100, S Viemeister
>> <firstname@lastname.oc.ku> wrote:
>>
>> >On 28/04/2024 21:09, David Woolley wrote:
>> >> On 28/04/2024 16:59, Tweed wrote:
>> >>> I suppose some electrical systems
>> >>> might have both sides live
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I believe that is true of 240 volt outlets in the USA.  These are used
>> >> for higher power devices.  I've heard of them in the context of amateur
>> >> radio transmitters, but I assume they are rather more common than that,
>> >> in domestic systems.
>> >
>> >In the US, 240 (or 220) outlets are used for cookers, large AC units,
>> >clothes dryers, etc.
>>
>> Why not just use them for everything, as they are obviously more
>> efficient?
>
>Because 110v is rather less likely to kill you than 220v. Even the
>220v outlets are only 110v to ground as have a centre-tap neutral.
>
>It's a balance - slightly more complax wiring, slightly safer.

Even allowing for a greater fire risk?

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> wrote:
> > On 25/04/2024 18:31, Woody wrote:
> >> On Thu 25/04/2024 17:52, Mark Carver wrote:
> >>> On 25/04/2024 17:47, Scott wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Thanks. I could not see any reason to protect the neutral side of the
> >>>> socket even if polarity is reversible.
> >>>
> >>> Nor can I !
> >>
> >>
> >> Agreed - but they do!
> >
> > Well, as I said, in the hotel room I was staying in, they don't
> >
>
> You should double pole switch *after* any potential swapping of L & N, ie
> after the plug, usually in the appliance. I suppose some electrical systems
> might have both sides live, ie well above ground potential. I can see a
> need to double pole switch those in the consumer unit.

If you know which side is which, I'd have thought it's safe to switch only
the live side. If you have the live identified at the consumer unit, you
can use a single pole MCB/RCBO. The neutral should be tied to earth
somewhere (at your cutout if PME, at the transformer if TNS, with an earth
rod if TT) so there shouldn't be a signficant potential between neutral and
earth. (single pole switching can still allow the RCD to trip if there's N-E
leakage, but that's a separate thing)

If you *don't* know which side is which, you have to use a double pole
switch. Things downstream of a Schuko mean the appliance needs a DP switch,
but upstream of the Schuko on UK wiring doesn't. If it's the kind of place
where power comes in on an overhead wire and nobody bothered to identify
which is live then you need DP. (This may be the case in some countries
that use Schukos)

If you're taking power between L1 and L2 rather than L1 to N then you need
DP. US 240v switching needs DP because their 240v is between two 120v hot
wires rather than to neutral.

So I'm not sure why a Schuko would require a DP breaker in a UK consumer
unit, since at the point we know which wire is live and which is neutral?
It's only when that could become uncertain do you need DP.

Theo

On 25/04/2024 22:10, JMB99 wrote:
> Why do people need a 16A supply in their hotel room?
>
> I often carry a lot of junk but never needed a 16A supply.
>
You probably don´t, but if not 16amps what would you select?
I assume its there for the convenience of tourists from Europe who would
expect a 16A sucho. For example even my spanish laptop charger which is
rated 75watts (output) has a 16A sucho plug so it needs the large socket.

Also having looked at a few consumer units in Spanish homes they are
much the same as UK ones, but usually with a surge limiter as well as an
RCD/ELCB and then single pole MCBs..

Dave

On Thu, 2 May 2024 12:44:06 +0100
David Wade <dave@g4ugm.invalid> wrote:

> On 25/04/2024 22:10, JMB99 wrote:
> > Why do people need a 16A supply in their hotel room?
> >
> > I often carry a lot of junk but never needed a 16A supply.
> >
> You probably don´t, but if not 16amps what would you select?
> I assume its there for the convenience of tourists from Europe who
> would expect a 16A sucho. For example even my spanish laptop charger
> which is rated 75watts (output) has a 16A sucho plug so it needs the
> large socket.
>
> Also having looked at a few consumer units in Spanish homes they are
> much the same as UK ones, but usually with a surge limiter as well as
> an RCD/ELCB and then single pole MCBs..
>
> Dave

Admittedly some years ago, but when I worked on a job in Spain, my
colleague, who lived in a rented flat with his wife and daughter for
the duration of the contract, told me to NOT touch the TV set, or I
would be zapped! They turned it on and off at the socket, and used the
remote control while it was powered up. Other residents of the block of
flats considered this normal.
I kept well away from it.

--
Davey.

On Thu 02/05/2024 12:44, David Wade wrote:
> On 25/04/2024 22:10, JMB99 wrote:
>> Why do people need a 16A supply in their hotel room?
>>
>> I often carry a lot of junk but never needed a 16A supply.
>>
> You probably don´t, but if not 16amps what would you select?
> I assume its there for the convenience of tourists from Europe who would
> expect a 16A sucho. For example even my spanish laptop charger which is
> rated 75watts (output) has a 16A sucho plug so it needs the large socket.
>
> Also having looked at a few consumer units in Spanish homes they are
> much the same as UK ones, but usually with a surge limiter as well as an
> RCD/ELCB and then single pole MCBs..
>

For the record - spelling is Schuko.

On Thu, 2 May 2024 12:44:06 +0100, David Wade <dave@g4ugm.invalid>
wrote:

>On 25/04/2024 22:10, JMB99 wrote:
>> Why do people need a 16A supply in their hotel room?
>>
>> I often carry a lot of junk but never needed a 16A supply.
>>
>You probably don´t, but if not 16amps what would you select?
>I assume its there for the convenience of tourists from Europe who would
>expect a 16A sucho. For example even my spanish laptop charger which is
>rated 75watts (output) has a 16A sucho plug so it needs the large socket.

What do you mean by 'the large socket'? All Schuko sockets are the
same size (the smaller Europlug being capable of fitting the Schuko
socket). The question was about fusing. From what others have said, I
am persuaded that if the Schuko socket is designed for 16 amps, the
hotel should just stick with this. (I assume trains do not provide 13
amps at every power point in case all the passengers decide to take
their own fan heaters, but this is a bit different).
>
>Also having looked at a few consumer units in Spanish homes they are
>much the same as UK ones, but usually with a surge limiter as well as an
>RCD/ELCB and then single pole MCBs..
>
I believe we are getting surge limiters too, according to the
electrician two weeks ago.

On Thu, 2 May 2024 14:09:49 +0100, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>On Thu 02/05/2024 12:44, David Wade wrote:
>> On 25/04/2024 22:10, JMB99 wrote:
>>> Why do people need a 16A supply in their hotel room?
>>>
>>> I often carry a lot of junk but never needed a 16A supply.
>>>
>> You probably don´t, but if not 16amps what would you select?
>> I assume its there for the convenience of tourists from Europe who would
>> expect a 16A sucho. For example even my spanish laptop charger which is
>> rated 75watts (output) has a 16A sucho plug so it needs the large socket.
>>
>> Also having looked at a few consumer units in Spanish homes they are
>> much the same as UK ones, but usually with a surge limiter as well as an
>> RCD/ELCB and then single pole MCBs..
>>
> For the record - spelling is Schuko.

'Schuko is a shortening of the German term Schutzkontakt (literally:
protective contact), [...] which indicates that plug and socket are
equipped with protective-earth contacts (in the form of clips rather
than pins)', according to Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuko

On 02/05/2024 13:49, Davey wrote:
> On Thu, 2 May 2024 12:44:06 +0100
> David Wade <dave@g4ugm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 25/04/2024 22:10, JMB99 wrote:
>>> Why do people need a 16A supply in their hotel room?
>>>
>>> I often carry a lot of junk but never needed a 16A supply.
>>>
>> You probably don´t, but if not 16amps what would you select?
>> I assume its there for the convenience of tourists from Europe who
>> would expect a 16A sucho. For example even my spanish laptop charger
>> which is rated 75watts (output) has a 16A sucho plug so it needs the
>> large socket.
>>
>> Also having looked at a few consumer units in Spanish homes they are
>> much the same as UK ones, but usually with a surge limiter as well as
>> an RCD/ELCB and then single pole MCBs..
>>
>> Dave
>
> Admittedly some years ago, but when I worked on a job in Spain, my
> colleague, who lived in a rented flat with his wife and daughter for
> the duration of the contract, told me to NOT touch the TV set, or I
> would be zapped! They turned it on and off at the socket, and used the
> remote control while it was powered up. Other residents of the block of
> flats considered this normal.
> I kept well away from it.
>

Unlike the UK where we never check for updates, everyone in Spain had to
have their system checked and certified to the current rules when they
rolled out Smart Meters so many needed new consumer units, and that
should have been fixed by now.

Dave.

On 02/05/2024 14:21, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 2 May 2024 12:44:06 +0100, David Wade <dave@g4ugm.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 25/04/2024 22:10, JMB99 wrote:
>>> Why do people need a 16A supply in their hotel room?
>>>
>>> I often carry a lot of junk but never needed a 16A supply.
>>>
>> You probably don´t, but if not 16amps what would you select?
>> I assume its there for the convenience of tourists from Europe who would
>> expect a 16A sucho. For example even my spanish laptop charger which is
>> rated 75watts (output) has a 16A sucho plug so it needs the large socket.
>
> What do you mean by 'the large socket'?

I meant as opposed to the receptical that takes the 2-pin type-C plug only.

> All Schuko sockets are the
> same size (the smaller Europlug being capable of fitting the Schuko
> socket). The question was about fusing. From what others have said, I
> am persuaded that if the Schuko socket is designed for 16 amps, the
> hotel should just stick with this. (I assume trains do not provide 13
> amps at every power point in case all the passengers decide to take
> their own fan heaters, but this is a bit different).

Cruise ships are bad. Confiscated my Travel Iron...

>>
>> Also having looked at a few consumer units in Spanish homes they are
>> much the same as UK ones, but usually with a surge limiter as well as an
>> RCD/ELCB and then single pole MCBs..
>>
> I believe we are getting surge limiters too, according to the
> electrician two weeks ago.

Yes, but only for these who need to upgrade. My next door neighbour
still has 4 wylex fuses, 2 for lights, one ring main, one for the cooker.

Dave

On Thu, 2 May 2024 21:12:49 +0100, David Wade <dave@g4ugm.invalid>
wrote:

>On 02/05/2024 14:21, Scott wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 May 2024 12:44:06 +0100, David Wade <dave@g4ugm.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 25/04/2024 22:10, JMB99 wrote:
>>>> Why do people need a 16A supply in their hotel room?
>>>>
>>>> I often carry a lot of junk but never needed a 16A supply.
>>>>
>>> You probably don´t, but if not 16amps what would you select?
>>> I assume its there for the convenience of tourists from Europe who would
>>> expect a 16A sucho. For example even my spanish laptop charger which is
>>> rated 75watts (output) has a 16A sucho plug so it needs the large socket.
>>
>> What do you mean by 'the large socket'?
>
>I meant as opposed to the receptical that takes the 2-pin type-C plug only.

I see what you mean. Compatibility runs one way only.
>
>> All Schuko sockets are the
>> same size (the smaller Europlug being capable of fitting the Schuko
>> socket). The question was about fusing. From what others have said, I
>> am persuaded that if the Schuko socket is designed for 16 amps, the
>> hotel should just stick with this. (I assume trains do not provide 13
>> amps at every power point in case all the passengers decide to take
>> their own fan heaters, but this is a bit different).
>
>Cruise ships are bad. Confiscated my Travel Iron...
>
>>>
>>> Also having looked at a few consumer units in Spanish homes they are
>>> much the same as UK ones, but usually with a surge limiter as well as an
>>> RCD/ELCB and then single pole MCBs..
>>>
>> I believe we are getting surge limiters too, according to the
>> electrician two weeks ago.
>
>Yes, but only for these who need to upgrade. My next door neighbour
>still has 4 wylex fuses, 2 for lights, one ring main, one for the cooker.
>
Indeed. I am in discussion with the electrician about replacing the
consumer unit (which he still calls the fuse board). I would like all
RCBOs to minimise inconvenience if there is a trip.

On 02/05/2024 18:39, David Wade wrote:
> Unlike the UK where we never check for updates, everyone in Spain had to
> have their system checked and certified to the current rules when they
> rolled out Smart Meters so many needed new consumer units, and that
> should have been fixed by now.

I can imagine the reaction here if people were told there had been a
minor change in the electrical regulations (probably by the EU!) and
they to spend £100 to have their wiring checked.

It would be like PAT testing scam when some went around telling
businesses (and often individuals) they had to have everything PAT
tested at very frequent intervals - I heard a few people buying testers
on retirement because it was a 'nice little earner'.

More Schuko stories from my travels

We've just spent the weekend in a UK AirBnB flat.

I was amused, the place was full of table lamps, obviously purchased in
Europe.

Rather than chop off the 'Euro' 2 pin moulded on plugs, and stick on a
BS1363 13A plug, all of them (six or seven in total) were plugged into
13A shaver adaptors (and of course Shaver plug pins are a much thicker
diameter than 'Euro/Schuko' plug pins, so all of them had rather dodgy
contacts.

Aren't 'normal' people strange ! ?

Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> wrote:
>
> More Schuko stories from my travels
>
> We've just spent the weekend in a UK AirBnB flat.
>
> I was amused, the place was full of table lamps, obviously purchased in
> Europe.
>
> Rather than chop off the 'Euro' 2 pin moulded on plugs, and stick on a
> BS1363 13A plug, all of them (six or seven in total) were plugged into
> 13A shaver adaptors (and of course Shaver plug pins are a much thicker
> diameter than 'Euro/Schuko' plug pins, so all of them had rather dodgy
> contacts.
>
> Aren't 'normal' people strange ! ?
>
>
Just come back from a stay in a modern house in France. There was a variant
on their sockets (like Schuko but with a protruding earth pin) that I’ve
not seen before. The shutter mechanism was effectively the back of the
sunken socket pushed forwards on a spring until it was flush with the tip
of the earth pin and thus flush with the faceplate. Inserting the plug
pushed this back to the normal recessed position.