On Sunday, 3 December 2023 at 15:48:50 UTC, Malcolm Loades wrote:
> On 03/12/2023 11:23, Graham J wrote:
>
> > Note that VoIP needs a reliable broadband service to carry it. FTTP is
> > ideal. FTTC is probably OK. ADSL (if that's all you can get) - which
> > probably means you are in a very rural location - will not be
> > sufficiently reliable; ..............
> >
>
> You need nothing like the bandwidth implied here. You only need 0.5
> Mbps download for a good quality call. Compare that with streaming
> video which requires 3-4 Mbps.
>
> I've been using VoIP since 2005 first with ADSL, then VDSL, FTTC and now
> FTTP. The call quality with FTTC is no different than when my
> connection was by ADSL 18 years ago.
>
> As for reliability, the very few times I've had no VoIP is because the
> landline carrying the internet connection was down. Equally landline
> calls would not then have been possible.
>
> Malcolm

Amusingly a common fault on POTS lines is a disconnection on one leg. The phone neither rings nor can dial out. OTOH the broadband carries on at about one third speed. When BT knocked off my land line this way [yet again after spotting Openreach engineers in the underground chamber outside] I got them to divert the POTS number to my [adjacent] old ISDN MSN number ported to Voipfone ~15 years ago. Loved the irony!

Malcolm Loades wrote:
> On 03/12/2023 11:23, Graham J wrote:
>
>> Note that VoIP needs a reliable broadband service to carry it.  FTTP is
>> ideal.  FTTC is probably OK.  ADSL (if that's all you can get) - which
>> probably means you are in a very rural location - will not be
>> sufficiently reliable; ..............
>>
>
> You need nothing like the bandwidth implied here.  You only need 0.5
> Mbps download for a good quality call.  Compare that with streaming
> video which requires 3-4 Mbps.
>
> I've been using VoIP since 2005 first with ADSL, then VDSL, FTTC and now
> FTTP.  The call quality with FTTC is no different than when my
> connection was by ADSL 18 years ago.
>
> As for reliability, the very few times I've had no VoIP is because the
> landline carrying the internet connection was down.  Equally landline
> calls would not then have been possible.

I didn't mean to imply anything about bandwidth.

My point was about reliability. If the supporting ADSL service is
affected by lightning strikes, electric fences, grotty copper/aluminimum
joints, Christmas tree lights - anything that breaks the connection,
your router will re-synchronise, taking a minute or two to do so. This
break will force the VoIP service to stop, then re-register - taking
perhaps another couple of minutes.

Not what you want on a phone call.

By contrast, all the sources of interference that I listed above - would
only be noticed on an analog call as mildly annoying clicks.

--
Graham J

notya...@gmail.com <notyalckram@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, 2 December 2023 at 22:11:37 UTC, Chris wrote:
>> Mark Carver <ma...@invalid.com> wrote:
> SNIP
>> No option for retaining landline number here. No full fibre and only VDSL
>> options.
>
> Port it out first then - e.g. to Voipfone. Even works for mobiles.

Practical question. What happens to the line if you port the number first?

If the line dies, then what's the best approach to limit a cut in broadband
service? I'm guessing lining up a new BB with no phone to start at the same
time as the old one dying is laughable.

Chris wrote:

> notya...@gmail.com <notyalckram@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Saturday, 2 December 2023 at 22:11:37 UTC, Chris wrote:
>>> Mark Carver <ma...@invalid.com> wrote:
>> SNIP
>>> No option for retaining landline number here. No full fibre and only VDSL
>>> options.
>>
>> Port it out first then - e.g. to Voipfone. Even works for mobiles.
>
> Practical question. What happens to the line if you port the number first?
>
> If the line dies, then what's the best approach to limit a cut in broadband
> service? I'm guessing lining up a new BB with no phone to start at the same
> time as the old one dying is laughable.

If it's a VDSL line, porting out the PSTN number will cease the broadband.

I think you need to transition the VDSL line to SOGEA, which will
release the PSTN number, then within 30 days recover the PSTN number to
the CUPID number of the VoIP provider you wish to port to ...

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>
>> notya...@gmail.com <notyalckram@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Saturday, 2 December 2023 at 22:11:37 UTC, Chris wrote:
>>>> Mark Carver <ma...@invalid.com> wrote:
>>> SNIP
>>>> No option for retaining landline number here. No full fibre and only VDSL
>>>> options.
>>>
>>> Port it out first then - e.g. to Voipfone. Even works for mobiles.
>>
>> Practical question. What happens to the line if you port the number first?
>>
>> If the line dies, then what's the best approach to limit a cut in broadband
>> service? I'm guessing lining up a new BB with no phone to start at the same
>> time as the old one dying is laughable.
>
> If it's a VDSL line, porting out the PSTN number will cease the broadband.
>
> I think you need to transition the VDSL line to SOGEA, which will
> release the PSTN number, then within 30 days recover the PSTN number to
> the CUPID number of the VoIP provider you wish to port to ...

You might as well be speaking Hungarian...

Chris wrote:

> You might as well be speaking Hungarian...

Then I suggest sit-tight until your provider approaches *you* saying
it's time to migrate ...

Chris wrote:
> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>> Chris wrote:
>>
>>> notya...@gmail.com <notyalckram@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, 2 December 2023 at 22:11:37 UTC, Chris wrote:
>>>>> Mark Carver <ma...@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>> SNIP
>>>>> No option for retaining landline number here. No full fibre and only VDSL
>>>>> options.
>>>>
>>>> Port it out first then - e.g. to Voipfone. Even works for mobiles.
>>>
>>> Practical question. What happens to the line if you port the number first?
>>>
>>> If the line dies, then what's the best approach to limit a cut in broadband
>>> service? I'm guessing lining up a new BB with no phone to start at the same
>>> time as the old one dying is laughable.
>>
>> If it's a VDSL line, porting out the PSTN number will cease the broadband.
>>
>> I think you need to transition the VDSL line to SOGEA, which will
>> release the PSTN number, then within 30 days recover the PSTN number to
>> the CUPID number of the VoIP provider you wish to port to ...
>
> You might as well be speaking Hungarian...

So in English:

SOGEA means Single Order Generic Ethernet Access. It describes a
landline which carries ADSL or VDSL but is not linked to a phone number.

So first, set up an account with your preferred VoIP provider. Ask them
how best to proceed.

They will probably suggest asking your existing VDSL provider to convert
the service to SOGEA. Warn the VoIP provider the date on which this
conversion will take place and tell them your landline phone number, so
that they are prepared to import that number. In the past this was not
possible - any change to SOGEA cancelled the landline number, but since
Easter this year OFCOM has insisted that cancelled landline numbers be
available for transfer to a new service provider for 30 days.

Experience of other people here is that this process still can fail,
particularly if the releasing service provider is an organisation as
incompetent as Vodafone.

So you might simply wait.

At some point in the next 10 years your VDSL will be converted to fibre.
Your existing ISP may then offer an ultimatum:
a) have new FTTP but no landline number
b) have new FTTP with their proprietary "Digital Voice" VoIP service
So make your decision.

If you have a landline that does not support any of VDSL, ADSL or
dial-up then you are unlikely to ever get any sort of digital service.
It probably means you can't get 3G, 4G or 5G mobile either, because of
your geographical location. So talk to BT and ask them what will happen
when all copper landlines are withdrawn and see what they will commit to
for the future.

--
Graham J

Graham J wrote:

> SOGEA means Single Order Generic Ethernet Access.  It describes a
> landline which carries ADSL or VDSL but is not linked to a phone number.

As far as I know, SOGEA only applies to VDSL, there's a separate
product, SOTAP that applies to ADSL.

On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 08:53:40 +0000
Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:

> At some point in the next 10 years your VDSL will be converted to
> fibre. Your existing ISP may then offer an ultimatum:
> a) have new FTTP but no landline number
> b) have new FTTP with their proprietary "Digital Voice" VoIP service
> So make your decision.

This presumably also applies to those of us still on ADSL?

--
Davey.

On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 18:30:39 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
> Practical question. What happens to the line if you port the number
> first?
>
> If the line dies, then what's the best approach to limit a cut in
> broadband service? I'm guessing lining up a new BB with no phone to
> start at the same time as the old one dying is laughable.

If there's nothing else you need to keep from the old service (email
addresses for example), just order a new broadband service, in addition to
the one you currently have. Once it's all up and running, port the number
out from the old one. You'll end up paying two sets of charges for a month
or two, but should avoid any issues with losing service.

Mike

Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 18:30:39 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>> Practical question. What happens to the line if you port the number
>> first?
>>
>> If the line dies, then what's the best approach to limit a cut in
>> broadband service? I'm guessing lining up a new BB with no phone to
>> start at the same time as the old one dying is laughable.
>
> If there's nothing else you need to keep from the old service (email
> addresses for example), just order a new broadband service, in addition to
> the one you currently have. Once it's all up and running, port the number
> out from the old one. You'll end up paying two sets of charges for a month
> or two, but should avoid any issues with losing service.

Doesn't ordering a new service at the same property end the old service
automatically? Or isn't a second line quite expensive?

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>> Chris wrote:
>>>
>>>> notya...@gmail.com <notyalckram@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, 2 December 2023 at 22:11:37 UTC, Chris wrote:
>>>>>> Mark Carver <ma...@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>> SNIP
>>>>>> No option for retaining landline number here. No full fibre and only VDSL
>>>>>> options.
>>>>>
>>>>> Port it out first then - e.g. to Voipfone. Even works for mobiles.
>>>>
>>>> Practical question. What happens to the line if you port the number first?
>>>>
>>>> If the line dies, then what's the best approach to limit a cut in broadband
>>>> service? I'm guessing lining up a new BB with no phone to start at the same
>>>> time as the old one dying is laughable.
>>>
>>> If it's a VDSL line, porting out the PSTN number will cease the broadband.
>>>
>>> I think you need to transition the VDSL line to SOGEA, which will
>>> release the PSTN number, then within 30 days recover the PSTN number to
>>> the CUPID number of the VoIP provider you wish to port to ...
>>
>> You might as well be speaking Hungarian...
>
> So in English:
>
> SOGEA means Single Order Generic Ethernet Access. It describes a
> landline which carries ADSL or VDSL but is not linked to a phone number.
>
> So first, set up an account with your preferred VoIP provider. Ask them
> how best to proceed.
>
> They will probably suggest asking your existing VDSL provider to convert
> the service to SOGEA. Warn the VoIP provider the date on which this
> conversion will take place and tell them your landline phone number, so
> that they are prepared to import that number. In the past this was not
> possible - any change to SOGEA cancelled the landline number, but since
> Easter this year OFCOM has insisted that cancelled landline numbers be
> available for transfer to a new service provider for 30 days.
>
> Experience of other people here is that this process still can fail,
> particularly if the releasing service provider is an organisation as
> incompetent as Vodafone.
>
> So you might simply wait.
>
> At some point in the next 10 years your VDSL will be converted to fibre.
> Your existing ISP may then offer an ultimatum:
> a) have new FTTP but no landline number
> b) have new FTTP with their proprietary "Digital Voice" VoIP service
> So make your decision.
>
> If you have a landline that does not support any of VDSL, ADSL or
> dial-up then you are unlikely to ever get any sort of digital service.
> It probably means you can't get 3G, 4G or 5G mobile either, because of
> your geographical location. So talk to BT and ask them what will happen
> when all copper landlines are withdrawn and see what they will commit to
> for the future.

Thanks that helps.

Chris wrote:

> Mike Humphrey wrote:
>>
>> If there's nothing else you need to keep from the old service (email
>> addresses for example), just order a new broadband service, in addition to
>> the one you currently have. Once it's all up and running, port the number
>> out from the old one. You'll end up paying two sets of charges for a month
>> or two, but should avoid any issues with losing service.
>
> Doesn't ordering a new service at the same property end the old service
> automatically?

No, it's not uncommon to have one for home, another for work.

> Or isn't a second line quite expensive?

Should be same price (like for like) as first line, assuming line plant
is available, it's pretty likely that four wires already come into ypur
house.

On 02/12/2023 17:48, Mark Carver wrote:
> Sounds like PlusNet are quoting a silly price, to deter you from taking up the package. Rather like a plumber who's too busy, so quotes way over the odds !
>
> Weird !  Perhaps there's some arcane Ofcomery that says they still have to offer PSTN for renewals, if the punter is already on PSTN on their previous contract !?

I'm also using Plusnet with FTTC and a landline. I renewed a couple of months ago for 2 years with no change of service and only a modest increase in price. They did warn me that POTS was dying out so that at the end of the 2 years I might be forced to use something new-fangled, e.g. FTTP with VOIP if we still need a landline.

--
Clive Page

On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 15:14:14 +0000, Chris wrote:

> Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 18:30:39 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>>> Practical question. What happens to the line if you port the number
>>> first?
>>>
>>> If the line dies, then what's the best approach to limit a cut in
>>> broadband service? I'm guessing lining up a new BB with no phone to
>>> start at the same time as the old one dying is laughable.
>>
>> If there's nothing else you need to keep from the old service (email
>> addresses for example), just order a new broadband service, in addition
>> to the one you currently have. Once it's all up and running, port the
>> number out from the old one. You'll end up paying two sets of charges
>> for a month or two, but should avoid any issues with losing service.
>
> Doesn't ordering a new service at the same property end the old service
> automatically? Or isn't a second line quite expensive?

Not if it's not linked to a phone line. And FTTP isn't.

I ordered FTTP separately and had it installed. When it all worked, I
called my ISP and they swapped routing of my IP addresses to the new
service (from FTTC). It was completely smooth and took less than ten
minutes on the phone.

There was a two day overlap, and that was the only cost incurred; two
days' extra FTTC.

On 05/12/2023 15:14, Chris wrote:
> Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 18:30:39 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>>> Practical question. What happens to the line if you port the number
>>> first?
>>>
>>> If the line dies, then what's the best approach to limit a cut in
>>> broadband service? I'm guessing lining up a new BB with no phone to
>>> start at the same time as the old one dying is laughable.
>>
>> If there's nothing else you need to keep from the old service (email
>> addresses for example), just order a new broadband service, in addition to
>> the one you currently have. Once it's all up and running, port the number
>> out from the old one. You'll end up paying two sets of charges for a month
>> or two, but should avoid any issues with losing service.
>
> Doesn't ordering a new service at the same property end the old service
> automatically?

No, why should it?

Or isn't a second line quite expensive?
>

You are not ordering a second line, you are ordering a second broadband
connection to avoid having anything that could be considered a "line".
So long as its FTTP or FTTC then no "line" is required.

I started with ordering FTTP from ZEN, then I added VOIP from
voipfone.co.uk which gives you a free "voip" number so I could be sure
their service would work with the ZEN router. Finally I ported my
landline number to voipfone at which point my old FTTC ceased as it was
attached to my landline.

Dave

Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 15:14:14 +0000, Chris wrote:
>
>> Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 18:30:39 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>>>> Practical question. What happens to the line if you port the number
>>>> first?
>>>>
>>>> If the line dies, then what's the best approach to limit a cut in
>>>> broadband service? I'm guessing lining up a new BB with no phone to
>>>> start at the same time as the old one dying is laughable.
>>>
>>> If there's nothing else you need to keep from the old service (email
>>> addresses for example), just order a new broadband service, in addition
>>> to the one you currently have. Once it's all up and running, port the
>>> number out from the old one. You'll end up paying two sets of charges
>>> for a month or two, but should avoid any issues with losing service.
>>
>> Doesn't ordering a new service at the same property end the old service
>> automatically? Or isn't a second line quite expensive?
>
> Not if it's not linked to a phone line. And FTTP isn't.
>
> I ordered FTTP separately and had it installed. When it all worked, I
> called my ISP and they swapped routing of my IP addresses to the new
> service (from FTTC). It was completely smooth and took less than ten
> minutes on the phone.
>
> There was a two day overlap, and that was the only cost incurred; two
> days' extra FTTC.

That's encouraging. Thanks.

Chris wrote:

> Bob Eager wrote:
>
>> There was a two day overlap, and that was the only cost incurred; two
>> days' extra FTTC.
>
> That's encouraging. Thanks.

I'd expect with most ISPs, it'd be an extra month.

On 06/12/2023 06:24, Andy Burns wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>
>> Bob Eager wrote:
>>
>>> There was a two day overlap, and that was the only cost incurred; two
>>> days' extra FTTC.
>>
>> That's encouraging. Thanks.
>
> I'd expect with most ISPs, it'd be an extra month.
>
>
I was with plusnet and I am sure they only charged me for the days used,
but I was out of contract. If you are in-contract such changes may
result in large charges.

Dave

Davey wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 08:53:40 +0000
> Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> At some point in the next 10 years your VDSL will be converted to
>> fibre. Your existing ISP may then offer an ultimatum:
>> a) have new FTTP but no landline number
>> b) have new FTTP with their proprietary "Digital Voice" VoIP service
>> So make your decision.
>
> This presumably also applies to those of us still on ADSL?

I guess so ...

--
Graham J

Chris wrote:
> Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 18:30:39 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>>> Practical question. What happens to the line if you port the number
>>> first?
>>>
>>> If the line dies, then what's the best approach to limit a cut in
>>> broadband service? I'm guessing lining up a new BB with no phone to
>>> start at the same time as the old one dying is laughable.
>>
>> If there's nothing else you need to keep from the old service (email
>> addresses for example), just order a new broadband service, in addition to
>> the one you currently have. Once it's all up and running, port the number
>> out from the old one. You'll end up paying two sets of charges for a month
>> or two, but should avoid any issues with losing service.
>
> Doesn't ordering a new service at the same property end the old service
> automatically? Or isn't a second line quite expensive?

In the past if Openreach had insufficient plant they would refuse to
accept a new order for a property at which there was already a landline
service. If such an order was accepted a new copper pair could well
have been fairly expensive. A real pain for somebody wanting a second
line perhaps for a business purpose at a domestic address.

But in the context of a new service using FTTP the penalty might be no
more than £15.

For example Zen FTTC SOGEA product: £34 per month

Zen FTTP new service £15 setup fee then £35 per month thereafter.

--
Graham J

On 6 Dec 2023 15:56, Graham J wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>> Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 18:30:39 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>>>> Practical question. What happens to the line if you port the number
>>>> first?
>>>>
>>>> If the line dies, then what's the best approach to limit a cut in
>>>> broadband service? I'm guessing lining up a new BB with no phone to
>>>> start at the same time as the old one dying is laughable.
>>>
>>> If there's nothing else you need to keep from the old service (email
>>> addresses for example), just order a new broadband service, in addition to
>>> the one you currently have. Once it's all up and running, port the number
>>> out from the old one. You'll end up paying two sets of charges for a month
>>> or two, but should avoid any issues with losing service.
>>
>> Doesn't ordering a new service at the same property end the old service
>> automatically? Or isn't a second line quite expensive?
>
> In the past if Openreach had insufficient plant they would refuse to
> accept a new order for a property at which there was already a landline
> service. If such an order was accepted a new copper pair could well
> have been fairly expensive. A real pain for somebody wanting a second
> line perhaps for a business purpose at a domestic address.
>

That has not been my experience.

On 02/12/2023 13:59, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
> My contract with PlusNet expires in early January and although they have
> offered to renew it (WITH a phone line) they seem keen for me to
> transfer to a new package with no phone line and hall my current speed.
>

Here's a laugh. I've just logged on to my Plusnet account to check
something.

There was an offer waiting for me.

My present deal, of '66Mb' fibre (FTTC plus Landline) expires in October
next year. I'm paying 26.99/m (with a CPI uplift coming in April of course).

However, I can jump right now to a new 24 mth contract for 27.99/m, but
with no phone line (and a CPI uplift, infact two !)

Nuts !

Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> wrote:
> On 02/12/2023 13:59, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>
>> My contract with PlusNet expires in early January and although they have
>> offered to renew it (WITH a phone line) they seem keen for me to
>> transfer to a new package with no phone line and hall my current speed.
>>
>
> Here's a laugh. I've just logged on to my Plusnet account to check
> something.
>
> There was an offer waiting for me.
>
> My present deal, of '66Mb' fibre (FTTC plus Landline) expires in October
> next year. I'm paying 26.99/m (with a CPI uplift coming in April of course).
>
> However, I can jump right now to a new 24 mth contract for 27.99/m, but
> with no phone line (and a CPI uplift, infact two !)
>
> Nuts !
>
>

They’ve been taking lessons from Virgin Media it seems.

On Sun 17/12/2023 17:48, Tweed wrote:
> Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> wrote:
>> On 02/12/2023 13:59, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>>
>>> My contract with PlusNet expires in early January and although they have
>>> offered to renew it (WITH a phone line) they seem keen for me to
>>> transfer to a new package with no phone line and hall my current speed.
>>>
>>
>> Here's a laugh. I've just logged on to my Plusnet account to check
>> something.
>>
>> There was an offer waiting for me.
>>
>> My present deal, of '66Mb' fibre (FTTC plus Landline) expires in October
>> next year. I'm paying 26.99/m (with a CPI uplift coming in April of course).
>>
>> However, I can jump right now to a new 24 mth contract for 27.99/m, but
>> with no phone line (and a CPI uplift, infact two !)
>>
>> Nuts !
>>
>>
>
> They’ve been taking lessons from Virgin Media it seems.
>

No, unlikely. Most ISPs uplifted by CPI_3.9% which last time round was
about 14.1% total.
VM uplifted by RPI+3.9% so we paid 16.7%!!