Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 19/12/2023 10:27, Tweed wrote:
>>> There’s still no substitute for an element of management by walking about.
>>> You catch the things that the reporting structures fail to communicate.
>>
>>
>>
>> Wasn't there a BBC TV series many years ago where a very senior manager
>> would spend a day or days on the shop floor. They all learnt a lot!
>>
>> Years ago we had a visit from a senior manager who was taken around the
>> area by our local boss but he was taken ill and the senior manager
>> dropped him off at his home and came to our base. We spent the
>> afternoon just chatting in the workshop and I think I was able to bypass
>> the BS and get a few things over to him!
>
> I have a friend who used to work designing test instruments for
> Hewlett-Packard. One lunchtime he was sitting in his lab in Scotland
> eating a sandwich and reading the paper when a big American walks in and
> says, “Hi, I’m Dave Packard, who are you?”
>
> Sam
>
Hewlett and Packard were great advocates of management by walking about.

On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 13:01:32 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> On 19/12/2023 10:27, Tweed wrote:
>>>> There’s still no substitute for an element of management by walking about.
>>>> You catch the things that the reporting structures fail to communicate.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Wasn't there a BBC TV series many years ago where a very senior manager
>>> would spend a day or days on the shop floor. They all learnt a lot!
>>>
>>> Years ago we had a visit from a senior manager who was taken around the
>>> area by our local boss but he was taken ill and the senior manager
>>> dropped him off at his home and came to our base. We spent the
>>> afternoon just chatting in the workshop and I think I was able to bypass
>>> the BS and get a few things over to him!
>>
>> I have a friend who used to work designing test instruments for
>> Hewlett-Packard. One lunchtime he was sitting in his lab in Scotland
>> eating a sandwich and reading the paper when a big American walks in and
>> says, “Hi, I’m Dave Packard, who are you?”
>>
>> Sam
>>
>Hewlett and Packard were great advocates of management by walking about.

I did some occasional work with the Mars Group, which involved visiting several of their locations. I learned that it's
a somewhat unusual company: still privately owned by the Mars family, which have a distinct egalitarian culture.

They hate status symbols in the workplace, and also want to remind white collar workers how the money is made. So the
offices are nearly always attached to a factory, and all the staff share common facilities. So there's a shared car
park, with no reserved places, shared canteens, and so on (and the offices are very utilitarian, with no private offices
even for the site GM, standard desks for all, etc). At one site, as a visitor, I was asked to use the site's GM's desk
as he was away that day.

At another site, I was told of a visit from one of the top family members from the US. The manager of the staff canteen
thought she should celebrate the exalted visitor by putting a crisp white table cloth on one of the laminate tables. He
took one look at it, marched straight past, found a table full of blue collar workers in overalls, and asked if he could
join them.

On 19/12/2023 12:21, JMB99 wrote:
> On 19/12/2023 10:27, Tweed wrote:
>> There’s still no substitute for an element of management by walking
>> about.
>> You catch the things that the reporting structures fail to communicate.

A relative was a junior manager in retail and had Lord Sainsbury assign
himself to her team for a shift on the shop floor more than once.

> Wasn't there a BBC TV series many years ago where a very senior manager
> would spend a day or days on the shop floor.  They all learnt a lot!

"Back to the Floor" was entertaining and informative. The later
"Undercover Boss" franchise pinched the idea but was very formulaic,
with the U.S. version usually involving a photogenic employee with a
disabled child being given a generous donation by the beaming CEO.

> Years ago we had a visit from a senior manager who was taken around the
> area by our local boss but he was taken ill and the senior manager
> dropped him off at his home and came to our base.  We spent the
> afternoon just chatting in the workshop and I think I was able to bypass
> the BS and get a few things over to him!

According to <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>:
>On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 15:53:34 +0000
>>Stupidity is far more likely than malevolence. The latter takes thinking.
>
>Quite possibly , but surely someone at some point when that ticket office
>was being designed or built thought "if its locked people can't use the
>machines"? Its a rather basic question.

Your priorities are screwed up. "If it's locked, people can't vandalize the machines."

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <4A3gN.21520$woU1.2467@fx13.ams1>, at 22:19:44 on Mon, 18 Dec
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 18/12/2023 15:44, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 15:39:26 +0000
>>>>>>>>> Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Went to Newton Le Willows station a few days ago - the station was
>>>>>>>>>> rebuilt about 3-4 years ago.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The ticket office was closed - the staff had not arrived. Should be no
>>>>>>>>>> problems - there are 3 TVMs near the ticket office (on the South side of
>>>>>>>>>> the station.) Unfortunately whoever designed the station put those TVMs
>>>>>>>>>> inside the room containing the ticket office - and both the entrance
>>>>>>>>>> doors were locked. What a masterpiece of station design.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Fortunately, by pure guesswork before my train arrived, I located
>>>>>>>>>> another single TVM on the opposite (North) side of the station. (In the
>>>>>>>>>> vicinity of the closed ticket office, I could see no information that
>>>>>>>>>> another machine existed.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You have to wonder sometimes if its incompetance or whether the railway
>>>>>>>>> industry both on the management and bolshevik side are actually trying to
>>>>>>>>> scare people away from it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I do wonder if railway management actually use their train services. We
>>>>>>>> know some of them seem to prefer flying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They probably don't need to buy tickets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Train tickets, you mean? The NR lady in the news this week ran up a £10k
>>>>>> bill for airline tickets in a year.
>>>>>
>>>>> They were probably bought for her by her NR admin staff.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not that I subscribe to the theory that "the senior management of
>>>>>> Raleigh should be compelled to cycle to work", nor indeed should the
>>>>>> chief accountant at Sinclair be compelled to use a ZX81.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know that SNP politicians at Westminster support the ECML, but they
>>>>>> simply don't have the spare time to do a weekly commute other than by
>>>>>> plane, especially when people won't delay a meeting just because their
>>>>>> train is 2hrs late.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the other hand as someone commented on my Facebook feed, did NR
>>>>>> really have no choice but to hire someone to oversee the GWML from home
>>>>>> in Aberdeen. Was no-one who lived in Ealing available.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps she was the best NR person for the job, but why didn't she move
>>>>> south in the three years she was doing it? It's not as if it's a pure desk
>>>>> job that could be done from anywhere. The line has been performing badly,
>>>>> yet she stayed living 500 miles away, with her long-distance commute paid
>>>>> for by her public sector employer. I don't think many private sector
>>>>> employers would ave been so indulgent.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There’s still no substitute for an element of management by walking about.
>>>> You catch the things that the reporting structures fail to communicate.
>>>
>>> Definitely, but her job went beyond that. It's a civil engineering job
>>> where the activity takes place on site, not on the computer. She should
>>> have been regularly visiting the work sites and talking to the teams,
>>> trying to figure out why her route was performing so badly, not flying home
>>> to Aberdeen. Why did NR management permit her this freedom not to respond
>>> to problems?
>>>
>>> I wonder if it's entirely coincidental that her resignation followed a few
>>> days after NR CEO Andrew Haines and his son were themselves stuck on a
>>> stalled train (which did have auxiliary power) for hours?
>>>
>>> https://www.railtech.com/all/2023/12/18/senior-network-rail-executive-resigns-over-the-great-paddington-dewiring/
>>>
>>> It's all a bit odd — she was apparently regarded as a great catch by NR,
>>> despite her lack of railway or civil engineering experience, or willingness
>>> to move to somewhere near her work:
>>>
>>> "Having spent the whole of the twenty-first century in maritime, aviation,
>>> transport and financial services sectors. Prior to joining Network Rail in
>>> July 2021, she was chief executive of Aberdeen Harbour Board, the UK’s
>>> oldest business. … She describes herself as a passionate,
>>> globally-experienced and sector-versatile business leader, with a track
>>> record of success."
>>>
>>
>> Now suffering a broken rail in that track record?
>
> Indeed so.
>
>>
>> Never believe how alleged high flyers describe themselves. Be highly
>> suspicious of someone who moves every three years or so.
>
> Yes, that's a quote from her LinkedIn entry, which is worth a read. She was
> originally a barrister, but not for very long (law degree 81-84, called to
> the bar 1986; eight non-legal jobs from 2001 to this month, so an average
> of less than three years in each job, which have been in many different
> industries).
>
> None of her many jobs appears to involve managing civil engineering
> projects until the latest NR one, and she seems to change employers and
> industry rather than being promoted in any job. One suspects that she
> interviews very well, but then consistently fails to deliver.
>
>
Probably taboo now to say it but despite equality etc most interviews will
be carried out by groups that are mainly Men, and some Women know they are
good at turning on the charm and are skilled at using it to their
advantage. It can be painful to watch but the TV presentation “The
Apprentice” sometimes shows such behaviour when a female contestant is
negotiating with a Male trader for the supply of something at a good price.
This one was so blatant that years later I could remember her name and find
it on You tube within minutes.
<https://youtu.be/9JbyG0UJUyM?si=rGYX9o1Rb5a9_dJS>

GH

On 19 Dec 2023 15:16:09 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <4A3gN.21520$woU1.2467@fx13.ams1>, at 22:19:44 on Mon, 18 Dec
>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 18/12/2023 15:44, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 15:39:26 +0000
>>>>>>>>>> Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Went to Newton Le Willows station a few days ago - the station was
>>>>>>>>>>> rebuilt about 3-4 years ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The ticket office was closed - the staff had not arrived. Should be no
>>>>>>>>>>> problems - there are 3 TVMs near the ticket office (on the South side of
>>>>>>>>>>> the station.) Unfortunately whoever designed the station put those TVMs
>>>>>>>>>>> inside the room containing the ticket office - and both the entrance
>>>>>>>>>>> doors were locked. What a masterpiece of station design.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Fortunately, by pure guesswork before my train arrived, I located
>>>>>>>>>>> another single TVM on the opposite (North) side of the station. (In the
>>>>>>>>>>> vicinity of the closed ticket office, I could see no information that
>>>>>>>>>>> another machine existed.)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You have to wonder sometimes if its incompetance or whether the railway
>>>>>>>>>> industry both on the management and bolshevik side are actually trying to
>>>>>>>>>> scare people away from it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I do wonder if railway management actually use their train services. We
>>>>>>>>> know some of them seem to prefer flying.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They probably don't need to buy tickets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Train tickets, you mean? The NR lady in the news this week ran up a £10k
>>>>>>> bill for airline tickets in a year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They were probably bought for her by her NR admin staff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not that I subscribe to the theory that "the senior management of
>>>>>>> Raleigh should be compelled to cycle to work", nor indeed should the
>>>>>>> chief accountant at Sinclair be compelled to use a ZX81.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know that SNP politicians at Westminster support the ECML, but they
>>>>>>> simply don't have the spare time to do a weekly commute other than by
>>>>>>> plane, especially when people won't delay a meeting just because their
>>>>>>> train is 2hrs late.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand as someone commented on my Facebook feed, did NR
>>>>>>> really have no choice but to hire someone to oversee the GWML from home
>>>>>>> in Aberdeen. Was no-one who lived in Ealing available.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps she was the best NR person for the job, but why didn't she move
>>>>>> south in the three years she was doing it? It's not as if it's a pure desk
>>>>>> job that could be done from anywhere. The line has been performing badly,
>>>>>> yet she stayed living 500 miles away, with her long-distance commute paid
>>>>>> for by her public sector employer. I don't think many private sector
>>>>>> employers would ave been so indulgent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There’s still no substitute for an element of management by walking about.
>>>>> You catch the things that the reporting structures fail to communicate.
>>>>
>>>> Definitely, but her job went beyond that. It's a civil engineering job
>>>> where the activity takes place on site, not on the computer. She should
>>>> have been regularly visiting the work sites and talking to the teams,
>>>> trying to figure out why her route was performing so badly, not flying home
>>>> to Aberdeen. Why did NR management permit her this freedom not to respond
>>>> to problems?
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if it's entirely coincidental that her resignation followed a few
>>>> days after NR CEO Andrew Haines and his son were themselves stuck on a
>>>> stalled train (which did have auxiliary power) for hours?
>>>>
>>>> https://www.railtech.com/all/2023/12/18/senior-network-rail-executive-resigns-over-the-great-paddington-dewiring/
>>>>
>>>> It's all a bit odd — she was apparently regarded as a great catch by NR,
>>>> despite her lack of railway or civil engineering experience, or willingness
>>>> to move to somewhere near her work:
>>>>
>>>> "Having spent the whole of the twenty-first century in maritime, aviation,
>>>> transport and financial services sectors. Prior to joining Network Rail in
>>>> July 2021, she was chief executive of Aberdeen Harbour Board, the UK’s
>>>> oldest business. … She describes herself as a passionate,
>>>> globally-experienced and sector-versatile business leader, with a track
>>>> record of success."
>>>>
>>>
>>> Now suffering a broken rail in that track record?
>>
>> Indeed so.
>>
>>>
>>> Never believe how alleged high flyers describe themselves. Be highly
>>> suspicious of someone who moves every three years or so.
>>
>> Yes, that's a quote from her LinkedIn entry, which is worth a read. She was
>> originally a barrister, but not for very long (law degree 81-84, called to
>> the bar 1986; eight non-legal jobs from 2001 to this month, so an average
>> of less than three years in each job, which have been in many different
>> industries).
>>
>> None of her many jobs appears to involve managing civil engineering
>> projects until the latest NR one, and she seems to change employers and
>> industry rather than being promoted in any job. One suspects that she
>> interviews very well, but then consistently fails to deliver.
>>
>>
>Probably taboo now to say it but despite equality etc most interviews will
>be carried out by groups that are mainly Men, and some Women know they are
>good at turning on the charm and are skilled at using it to their
>advantage. It can be painful to watch but the TV presentation “The
>Apprentice” sometimes shows such behaviour when a female contestant is
>negotiating with a Male trader for the supply of something at a good price.
>
>This one was so blatant that years later I could remember her name and find
>it on You tube within minutes.
><https://youtu.be/9JbyG0UJUyM?si=rGYX9o1Rb5a9_dJS>
>

She was probably in her late fifties when selected (graduated in 1984), so may be a bit old for that?

But I bet there's pressure on NR to have more women in their senior ranks, and they're probably very short of women to
promote from the next level down. She might have seemed the perfect answer to their problem: a senior woman with
wide-ranging experience, a little of which was in the UK rail industry (GNER, where she was involved in the Kings Cross
refurbishment, but mainly in a commercial role).

I noticed when the railways have a project that includes a senior woman on the team, she's always the one who does the
press interviews and fronts the videos, even if there are plenty of male managers of equal or greater seniority on the
project. Remember the YouTube videos about the Nuneham Viaduct collapse? They were mostly fronted by Claudia Philps,
who seemed a bit young (only graduated in 2012) to be running a complex, high profile project like that.

In message <uls3ik$1q5o$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:50:28 on Tue, 19 Dec
2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:

>SAP once allowed a 'Vorstand' (board member) to travel every weekend
>with the company plane from Hamburg to Mannheim for 2 years. When this
>perk stopped after 2 years, she chose not to renew the contract because
>she did not want to force the daughter to move to southern Germany.

Maybe her daughter didn't want to be forced to wear lederhosen and slap
her thighs.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ut53oi1ugavlolfminco8ouahk8d8ntfn6@4ax.com>, at 13:25:14 on
Tue, 19 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>all the staff share common facilities. So there's a shared car
>park, with no reserved places, shared canteens, and so on

I remember going to a meeting at ICI in Runcorn, and they had three
canteens. One for the working classes, one for management, and another
for senior management (silver service and free wine).

Back in the day the best place to get a free lunch in Central London was
to gatecrash the working class canteen of a random donor. I'm sure in
this newsgroup we've heard tales of people gatecrashing the BBC canteen
at Broadcasting House.

I wasn't gatecrashing, but ITU and UN in Geneva, plus OECD in Paris,
both had highly subsidised canteens. As does the Palace of Westminster
(in the Portcullis House campus, overlooking the western end of
Whitehall).

--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 15:42:34 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <ut53oi1ugavlolfminco8ouahk8d8ntfn6@4ax.com>, at 13:25:14 on
>Tue, 19 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>all the staff share common facilities. So there's a shared car
>>park, with no reserved places, shared canteens, and so on
>
>I remember going to a meeting at ICI in Runcorn, and they had three
>canteens. One for the working classes, one for management, and another
>for senior management (silver service and free wine).

My first employer had a four level system (blue collar, white collar, management, senior management). The top one was
referred to as the 'Golden Trough'.

On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 11:35:28 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Never believe how alleged high flyers describe themselves. Be highly
>> suspicious of someone who moves every three years or so.

Moving around every year or so is par for the course in my industry (IT).
The days of employer loyalty were deep sixed years ago when companies decided
people were expendable in the financial crisis and more recently covid.
And why wait around for a payrise when you can get one just by moving to
a new employer.

On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 12:05:27 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> None of her many jobs appears to involve managing civil engineering
>> projects until the latest NR one, and she seems to change employers and
>> industry rather than being promoted in any job. One suspects that she
>> interviews very well, but then consistently fails to deliver.
>>
>>
>>
>
>In my experience many three year job hoppers (this excludes those who
>change jobs within the same organisation) leave a trail of damage behind
>them. Three years is about the time it takes the organisation to realise

What a load of crap. God knows where you work (probably more like worked) but
the days of putting in 40 years at a company to earn a golden clock at the end
are long gone. These days employees are just "resources" to be booted out the
minute profits drop so frankly anyone who shows loyalty to an employer these
days is a total mug.

On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 14:23:12 -0000 (UTC)
John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>According to <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>:
>>On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 15:53:34 +0000
>>>Stupidity is far more likely than malevolence. The latter takes thinking.
>>
>>Quite possibly , but surely someone at some point when that ticket office
>>was being designed or built thought "if its locked people can't use the
>>machines"? Its a rather basic question.
>
>Your priorities are screwed up. "If it's locked, people can't vandalize the
>machines."

They could solve that by having staff there... oh, wait...

On 19/12/2023 15:42, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ut53oi1ugavlolfminco8ouahk8d8ntfn6@4ax.com>, at 13:25:14 on
> Tue, 19 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> all the staff share common facilities. So there's a shared car
>> park, with no reserved places, shared canteens, and so on
>
> I remember going to a meeting at ICI in Runcorn, and they had three
> canteens. One for the working classes, one for management, and another
> for senior management (silver service and free wine).
>
> Back in the day the best place to get a free lunch in Central London was
> to gatecrash the working class canteen of a random donor. I'm sure in
> this newsgroup we've heard tales of people gatecrashing the BBC canteen
> at Broadcasting House.

For the record, that won't get you a free meal. Pre-security theatre
days it wouldn't have been that difficult to get into the canteen, after
all it's there to serve all and sundry who may have business there. The
place that would be difficult to get into is the bar which is (was?)
members only.

>
> I wasn't gatecrashing, but ITU and UN in Geneva, plus OECD in Paris,
> both had highly subsidised canteens. As does the Palace of Westminster
> (in the Portcullis House campus, overlooking the western end of Whitehall).
>

Not just there, there are restaurants (and bars) in the main complex as
well. you"d need a pass to access those but, presumably, you would have
had one when appropriate.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 19/12/2023 15:47, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <uls3ik$1q5o$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:50:28 on Tue, 19 Dec
> 2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>
>> SAP once allowed a 'Vorstand' (board member) to travel every weekend
>> with the company plane from Hamburg to Mannheim for 2 years.  When
>> this perk stopped after 2 years, she chose not to renew the contract
>> because she did not want to force the daughter to move to southern
>> Germany.
>
> Maybe her daughter didn't want to be forced to wear lederhosen and slap
> her thighs.

Plenty of volunteers to do it for her!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 15:42:34 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <ut53oi1ugavlolfminco8ouahk8d8ntfn6@4ax.com>, at 13:25:14 on
>> Tue, 19 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> all the staff share common facilities. So there's a shared car
>>> park, with no reserved places, shared canteens, and so on
>>
>> I remember going to a meeting at ICI in Runcorn, and they had three
>> canteens. One for the working classes, one for management, and another
>> for senior management (silver service and free wine).
>
> My first employer had a four level system (blue collar, white collar,
> management, senior management). The top one was
> referred to as the 'Golden Trough'.
>
And we wonder why British industry went down the pan.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 15:42:34 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <ut53oi1ugavlolfminco8ouahk8d8ntfn6@4ax.com>, at 13:25:14 on
>>> Tue, 19 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> all the staff share common facilities. So there's a shared car
>>>> park, with no reserved places, shared canteens, and so on
>>>
>>> I remember going to a meeting at ICI in Runcorn, and they had three
>>> canteens. One for the working classes, one for management, and another
>>> for senior management (silver service and free wine).
>>
>> My first employer had a four level system (blue collar, white collar,
>> management, senior management). The top one was
>> referred to as the 'Golden Trough'.
>>
> And we wonder why British industry went down the pan.

Yup, including that company that was acquired by a US company. No trace of
it remains in the UK — not even an office, let alone any factories.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 12:05:27 -0000 (UTC)
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> None of her many jobs appears to involve managing civil engineering
>>> projects until the latest NR one, and she seems to change employers and
>>> industry rather than being promoted in any job. One suspects that she
>>> interviews very well, but then consistently fails to deliver.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> In my experience many three year job hoppers (this excludes those who
>> change jobs within the same organisation) leave a trail of damage behind
>> them. Three years is about the time it takes the organisation to realise
>
> What a load of crap. God knows where you work (probably more like worked) but
> the days of putting in 40 years at a company to earn a golden clock at the end
> are long gone. These days employees are just "resources" to be booted out the
> minute profits drop so frankly anyone who shows loyalty to an employer these
> days is a total mug.
>
>

You have my sympathy in the IT industry, but in other some other industries
decent employees are targeted to be retained. I’m in year 36 of gainful
employment with the same employer in a branch of engineering with an
employer who values me. My younger son in another branch of engineering, is
well renumerated, and expects to remain with that employer for quite a
number of years, if not through to retirement. Salary progression and
career progression with that employer is designed to retain the staff they
value. Not every employer is evil.

In message <ulsg5d$44n4$2@dont-email.me>, at 16:25:16 on Tue, 19 Dec
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 19/12/2023 15:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ut53oi1ugavlolfminco8ouahk8d8ntfn6@4ax.com>, at 13:25:14
>>on Tue, 19 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> all the staff share common facilities. So there's a shared car
>>> park, with no reserved places, shared canteens, and so on

>> I remember going to a meeting at ICI in Runcorn, and they had three
>>canteens. One for the working classes, one for management, and another
>>for senior management (silver service and free wine).
>> Back in the day the best place to get a free lunch in Central London
>>was to gatecrash the working class canteen of a random donor. I'm
>>sure in this newsgroup we've heard tales of people gatecrashing the
>>BBC canteen at Broadcasting House.
>
>For the record, that won't get you a free meal. Pre-security theatre
>days it wouldn't have been that difficult to get into the canteen,
>after all it's there to serve all and sundry who may have business
>there.

No meals in that canteen?

>The place that would be difficult to get into is the bar which is
>(was?) members only.
>
>> I wasn't gatecrashing, but ITU and UN in Geneva, plus OECD in Paris,
>>both had highly subsidised canteens. As does the Palace of Westminster
>>(in the Portcullis House campus, overlooking the western end of
>>Whitehall).
>
>Not just there, there are restaurants (and bars) in the main complex as
>well. you"d need a pass to access those but, presumably, you would have
>had one when appropriate.

The UN has a concept of a public gallery, like Westminster, so as long
as you can get on-site via the airport-style security**, you can if you
know down which long corridor it is, also access the plebs' subsidised
canteen. I think the same was probably true at the OECD.

You can't get to the airside canteen at Portcullis House unless
accompanied by someone with a pass. Although MPs and Lords don't need to
flash a pass because the doorkeepers are required to know them all by
sight. And they will also allow through anyone in deep conversation with
said member (because to challenge them would by proxy be challenging the
member's judgement in asking them to accompany them).

**Unless you have a red-badge which means "we must let you through
immediately".
--
Roland Perry

On 19/12/2023 17:38, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ulsg5d$44n4$2@dont-email.me>, at 16:25:16 on Tue, 19 Dec
> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 19/12/2023 15:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ut53oi1ugavlolfminco8ouahk8d8ntfn6@4ax.com>, at 13:25:14
>>> on  Tue, 19 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> all the staff share common facilities. So there's a shared car
>>>> park, with no reserved places, shared canteens, and so on
>
>>>  I remember going to a meeting at ICI in Runcorn, and they had three
>>> canteens. One for the working classes, one for management, and
>>> another for senior management (silver service and free wine).
>>>  Back in the day the best place to get a free lunch in Central London
>>> was  to gatecrash the working class canteen of a random donor. I'm
>>> sure in  this newsgroup we've heard tales of people gatecrashing the
>>> BBC canteen  at Broadcasting House.
>>
>> For the record, that won't get you a free meal. Pre-security theatre
>> days it wouldn't have been that difficult to get into the canteen,
>> after all it's there to serve all and sundry who may have business there.
>
> No meals in that canteen?

Please read what is written.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 19/12/2023 14:23, John Levine wrote:
> According to <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>:
>> On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 15:53:34 +0000
>>> Stupidity is far more likely than malevolence. The latter takes thinking.
>>
>> Quite possibly , but surely someone at some point when that ticket office
>> was being designed or built thought "if its locked people can't use the
>> machines"? Its a rather basic question.
>
> Your priorities are screwed up. "If it's locked, people can't vandalize the machines."
>

But I bet they still want to impose penalty fares on people unable to
get tickets from the inaccessible TVMs.

In message <ulsled$509r$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:55:25 on Tue, 19 Dec
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>>>>I'm sure in  this newsgroup we've heard tales of people
>>>>gatecrashing the BBC canteen  at Broadcasting House.
>>>
>>> For the record, that won't get you a free meal. Pre-security theatre
>>>days it wouldn't have been that difficult to get into the canteen,
>>>after all it's there to serve all and sundry who may have business
>>>there.

>> No meals in that canteen?
>
>Please read what is written.

So what did it serve, just tea and biscuits?
--
Roland Perry

On 19/12/2023 19:30, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ulsled$509r$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:55:25 on Tue, 19 Dec
> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>>> I'm  sure in  this newsgroup we've heard tales of people
>>>>> gatecrashing the  BBC canteen  at Broadcasting House.
>>>>
>>>> For the record, that won't get you a free meal. Pre-security theatre
>>>> days it wouldn't have been that difficult to get into the canteen,
>>>> after all it's there to serve all and sundry who may have business
>>>> there.
>
>>>  No meals in that canteen?
>>
>> Please read what is written.
>
> So what did it serve, just tea and biscuits?

It didn't serve FREE meals.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 19/12/2023 17:10, Recliner wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 15:42:34 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <ut53oi1ugavlolfminco8ouahk8d8ntfn6@4ax.com>, at 13:25:14 on
>>>> Tue, 19 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> all the staff share common facilities. So there's a shared car
>>>>> park, with no reserved places, shared canteens, and so on
>>>>
>>>> I remember going to a meeting at ICI in Runcorn, and they had three
>>>> canteens. One for the working classes, one for management, and another
>>>> for senior management (silver service and free wine).
>>>
>>> My first employer had a four level system (blue collar, white collar,
>>> management, senior management). The top one was
>>> referred to as the 'Golden Trough'.
>>>
>> And we wonder why British industry went down the pan.
>
> Yup, including that company that was acquired by a US company. No trace of
> it remains in the UK — not even an office, let alone any factories.
>

During a summer holiday job when at school I experienced the same three
tier canteen at Pirelli cable factory in Eastleigh. Now part of the
Prysmian Group they still have their UK HQ in Eastleigh. No idea about
canteen arrangement though!

--
Colin

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/12/2023 17:10, Recliner wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 15:42:34 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <ut53oi1ugavlolfminco8ouahk8d8ntfn6@4ax.com>, at 13:25:14 on
>>>>> Tue, 19 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> all the staff share common facilities. So there's a shared car
>>>>>> park, with no reserved places, shared canteens, and so on
>>>>>
>>>>> I remember going to a meeting at ICI in Runcorn, and they had three
>>>>> canteens. One for the working classes, one for management, and another
>>>>> for senior management (silver service and free wine).
>>>>
>>>> My first employer had a four level system (blue collar, white collar,
>>>> management, senior management). The top one was
>>>> referred to as the 'Golden Trough'.
>>>>
>>> And we wonder why British industry went down the pan.
>>
>> Yup, including that company that was acquired by a US company. No trace of
>> it remains in the UK — not even an office, let alone any factories.
>>
>
> During a summer holiday job when at school I experienced the same three
> tier canteen at Pirelli cable factory in Eastleigh. Now part of the
> Prysmian Group they still have their UK HQ in Eastleigh. No idea about
> canteen arrangement though!

Another one I visited was Plessey in Ilford. It might have been a high tech
electronics company, but the management was old-fashioned. My contact
enjoyed taking ne to lunch, because when entertaining a visitor, he was
entitled to use a higher grade of canteen than normal, and also wasn't
charged for his own lunch.

In message <ulsrvb$654a$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:46:51 on Tue, 19 Dec
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 19/12/2023 19:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ulsled$509r$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:55:25 on Tue, 19 Dec
>>2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>>> I'm  sure in  this newsgroup we've heard tales of people
>>>>>>gatecrashing the  BBC canteen  at Broadcasting House.
>>>>>
>>>>> For the record, that won't get you a free meal. Pre-security
>>>>>theatre days it wouldn't have been that difficult to get into the
>>>>>canteen, after all it's there to serve all and sundry who may have
>>>>>business there.
>>
>>>>  No meals in that canteen?
>>>
>>> Please read what is written.
>> So what did it serve, just tea and biscuits?
>
>It didn't serve FREE meals.

I didn't say it would.
--
Roland Perry