On the BBC News pages yesterday.

ScotRail introduces electric car-charging fees at stations

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67748404

On 19/12/2023 21:53, JMB99 wrote:
> On the BBC News pages yesterday.
>
>
>
> ScotRail introduces electric car-charging fees at stations
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67748404
>
>
>

The problem is not really being addressed. If a person parks at a
station the chances are that they are taking a train somewhere. The car
takes about an hour to charge and then "blocks" the space until the
owner returns from his train trip. The £12 fine after 12 hours is laughable.

--
Colin

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/12/2023 21:53, JMB99 wrote:
>> On the BBC News pages yesterday.
>>
>>
>>
>> ScotRail introduces electric car-charging fees at stations
>>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67748404
>>
>>
>>
>
> The problem is not really being addressed. If a person parks at a
> station the chances are that they are taking a train somewhere. The car
> takes about an hour to charge and then "blocks" the space until the
> owner returns from his train trip. The £12 fine after 12 hours is laughable.
>

I wonder if the tech would allow a number of multiplexed charging points?
So there might only be the capacity to actually charge, say, five cars
concurrently, but have, say, 30 metered charging points. Each car would be
limited to, say, 40 kW-h per stay, but that might be delivered over several
hours, depending on demand and available capacity. There might be a short
initial charge of, say, 10 kW-h so that every parked EV gets at least a
small charge to get them home, but it might take several hours to get the
full 40.

On 19/12/2023 22:27, Recliner wrote:
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/12/2023 21:53, JMB99 wrote:
>>> On the BBC News pages yesterday.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ScotRail introduces electric car-charging fees at stations
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67748404
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The problem is not really being addressed. If a person parks at a
>> station the chances are that they are taking a train somewhere. The car
>> takes about an hour to charge and then "blocks" the space until the
>> owner returns from his train trip. The £12 fine after 12 hours is laughable.
>>
>
> I wonder if the tech would allow a number of multiplexed charging points?
> So there might only be the capacity to actually charge, say, five cars
> concurrently, but have, say, 30 metered charging points. Each car would be
> limited to, say, 40 kW-h per stay, but that might be delivered over several
> hours, depending on demand and available capacity. There might be a short
> initial charge of, say, 10 kW-h so that every parked EV gets at least a
> small charge to get them home, but it might take several hours to get the
> full 40.
>

It is not the charging problem (some chargers have more than one car
park space that cables can reach) but it is the blocking of the car park
spaces, not the "blocking" of the ability to charge.

--
colin

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/12/2023 22:27, Recliner wrote:
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 19/12/2023 21:53, JMB99 wrote:
>>>> On the BBC News pages yesterday.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ScotRail introduces electric car-charging fees at stations
>>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67748404
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The problem is not really being addressed. If a person parks at a
>>> station the chances are that they are taking a train somewhere. The car
>>> takes about an hour to charge and then "blocks" the space until the
>>> owner returns from his train trip. The £12 fine after 12 hours is laughable.
>>>
>>
>> I wonder if the tech would allow a number of multiplexed charging points?
>> So there might only be the capacity to actually charge, say, five cars
>> concurrently, but have, say, 30 metered charging points. Each car would be
>> limited to, say, 40 kW-h per stay, but that might be delivered over several
>> hours, depending on demand and available capacity. There might be a short
>> initial charge of, say, 10 kW-h so that every parked EV gets at least a
>> small charge to get them home, but it might take several hours to get the
>> full 40.
>>
>
> It is not the charging problem (some chargers have more than one car
> park space that cables can reach) but it is the blocking of the car park
> spaces, not the "blocking" of the ability to charge.
>

If you have lots of charger points and leads, then most parking saces may
be within reach of one. That must be the ultimate objective if most cars
are to be BEVs. Rather than even small cars hauling around a large, very
expensive, heavy battery, it's better if city cars have smaller, cheaper
batteries with more opportunities to top up.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you have lots of charger points and leads, then most parking saces may
> be within reach of one. That must be the ultimate objective if most cars
> are to be BEVs. Rather than even small cars hauling around a large, very
> expensive, heavy battery, it's better if city cars have smaller, cheaper
> batteries with more opportunities to top up.

These are 22kW charging points, which is likely 22kW three-phase AC. Most
cars don't have 3-phase onboard chargers (primarily Renault-Nissan do) so
that's 7kW single-phase. There it'll take ballpark 10 hours to charge a
family car (70kWh), assuming empty to full. Also some city cars with small
batteries only have a 3kW charger.

Wiring up more parking spaces for 3-phase 22kW is easy; it's just a 32A
mains supply to each bay. The EVSEs (the small charging box-onna-stick, or
wall) can be configured to load share between all the bays, so that if
everyone plugs in and try to take more current than the supply will bear,
the charging speed will throttle. As cars become full (or unplugged) the
pressure on the supply will be less and the remaining cars can each have
more current. You permute the phases between different bays so the
single-phase charging load is spread across the three phase supply you have.

This is all standard stuff: it's cheap and easy to do. It's nothing like
the expense of the equipment and grid connection needed for a rapid charge,
as you get at motorway services.

So a 12 hour cutoff seems about right: nobody will still be charging by that
point, but they could still be after 8 or 10 hours. It's a problem for you
if you leave first thing and only get back at midnight, but that's an edge
case you should be prepared for if so.

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If you have lots of charger points and leads, then most parking saces may
>> be within reach of one. That must be the ultimate objective if most cars
>> are to be BEVs. Rather than even small cars hauling around a large, very
>> expensive, heavy battery, it's better if city cars have smaller, cheaper
>> batteries with more opportunities to top up.
>
> These are 22kW charging points, which is likely 22kW three-phase AC. Most
> cars don't have 3-phase onboard chargers (primarily Renault-Nissan do) so
> that's 7kW single-phase. There it'll take ballpark 10 hours to charge a
> family car (70kWh), assuming empty to full. Also some city cars with small
> batteries only have a 3kW charger.
>
> Wiring up more parking spaces for 3-phase 22kW is easy; it's just a 32A
> mains supply to each bay. The EVSEs (the small charging box-onna-stick, or
> wall) can be configured to load share between all the bays, so that if
> everyone plugs in and try to take more current than the supply will bear,
> the charging speed will throttle. As cars become full (or unplugged) the
> pressure on the supply will be less and the remaining cars can each have
> more current. You permute the phases between different bays so the
> single-phase charging load is spread across the three phase supply you have.
>
> This is all standard stuff: it's cheap and easy to do. It's nothing like
> the expense of the equipment and grid connection needed for a rapid charge,
> as you get at motorway services.
>
> So a 12 hour cutoff seems about right: nobody will still be charging by that
> point, but they could still be after 8 or 10 hours. It's a problem for you
> if you leave first thing and only get back at midnight, but that's an edge
> case you should be prepared for if so.
>

There's probably no shortage of parking bays in the late evening, so it
shouldn't really matter if cars stay on for a few hours beyond 12 hours. So
perhaps the limit should be a more reasonable 15 or 18 hours?

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/12/2023 21:53, JMB99 wrote:
>> On the BBC News pages yesterday.
>>
>>
>>
>> ScotRail introduces electric car-charging fees at stations
>>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67748404
>>
>>
>>
>
> The problem is not really being addressed. If a person parks at a
> station the chances are that they are taking a train somewhere. The car
> takes about an hour to charge and then "blocks" the space until the
> owner returns from his train trip. The £12 fine after 12 hours is laughable.
>

Two things wrong here - first with your calculations, secondly with
Scotrail's policy.

Firstly I have no problem with charging being, erm, chargeable - indeed I'm
surprised that it isn't already!

Very few cars can charge at 22kW AC. It's very much a niche charging input.
The majority of cars, including mine, will take 7kW at the most from that.
That'll take almost 10 hours to charge my car from dead flat (obviously I
wouldn't actually run it that low), ideal for a day out, or indeed a shift
at work. So nobody (ok, hardly anybody) will be 'charging for an hour then
blocking the space'.

According to the article there are an average of 2.8 spaces per station,
but we don't know how they are distributed or how well they are used. There
should be, ideally, be enough to meet the demand. I would suggest that if
power supply is the reason there aren't more (ie, the requirement to be
able to supply 22kW per space) then perhaps the should have fitted 7kW
units (you could presumably fit 3x as many for the same power supply?).

The concept of the penalty charge after 12 hours is, as you state,
ridiculous - ok it'll work for a commuter station (as long as nobody wants
to do anything in town after work) but renders the chargers basically
pointless for a leisure day out. 24 hours would perhaps be better?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 19/12/2023 22:17, ColinR wrote:
> The problem is not really being addressed. If a person parks at a
> station the chances are that they are taking a train somewhere. The car
> takes about an hour to charge and then "blocks" the space until the
> owner returns from his train trip. The £12 fine after 12 hours is
> laughable.

That is a failing with all charging of Battery Cars, if I had and drove
the 70 miles to the nearest large town then I would want the car
re-charged but would not want to have to stay with it. I normally park
just outside the town centre and I have spoken several times to people
having to sit in their Battery Cars as they charged, whilst I went off
into town.

Same if I arrive at a hotel in the evening, I will unload and go to my
room, I do not want to have to go back to the car later (and of course
if I was a drinker then would not be able to have drink until I had
taken it off charge).

In message <ult4oq$7ehh$3@dont-email.me>, at 22:17:04 on Tue, 19 Dec
2023, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:

>The problem is not really being addressed. If a person parks at a
>station the chances are that they are taking a train somewhere.

You'd be surprised. People park at the Ely Tesco with no intention of
shopping there (before they introduced a 3hr limit many caught the train
from the adjacent station) and as recently as last week I parked at
Waterloo Station because the nearby hotel (which recommends the station)
had no parking, nor is there any on-street parking for miles around.
--
Roland Perry

On 20/12/2023 08:57, JMB99 wrote:
> On 19/12/2023 22:17, ColinR wrote:
>> The problem is not really being addressed. If a person parks at a
>> station the chances are that they are taking a train somewhere. The
>> car takes about an hour to charge and then "blocks" the space until
>> the owner returns from his train trip. The £12 fine after 12 hours is
>> laughable.
>
>
> That is a failing with all charging of Battery Cars, if I had and drove
> the 70 miles to the nearest large town then I would want the car
> re-charged but would not want to have to stay with it.  I normally park
> just outside the town centre and I have spoken several times to people
> having to sit in their Battery Cars as they charged, whilst I went off
> into town.
>
> Same if I arrive at a hotel in the evening, I will unload and go to my
> room, I do not want to have to go back to the car later (and of course
> if I was a drinker then would not be able to have drink until I had
> taken it off charge).

The model will need to change if and when electric cars become the norm.
A substantial proportion of parking spaces will need a wire on a post,
but they can be connected to a big bank of chargers (maybe one per row)
which time-share the available power between the cars. A sophisticated
system might let you say "get me to 90% by 1800", which would cost more
per kWh than getting to 80% by 2300 because the latter can be
interrupted when Mr. Important wants to pay a premium to charge at full
rate for an hour.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> There's probably no shortage of parking bays in the late evening, so it
> shouldn't really matter if cars stay on for a few hours beyond 12 hours. So
> perhaps the limit should be a more reasonable 15 or 18 hours?

That, or you can buy some kind of charging extension as part of your parking
charges if you know you're going to be there all day, if the number of
charging bays is limited. But generally people are going to be parking
there for the duration of their trip, which isn't flexible (if you go to
work, it's often not feasible to leave early).

I suspect some stations do see double-shifting (eg 7am-7pm, 7pm-midnight)
but it's probably low (many don't have that kind of evening traffic, in
enough volume to cause congestion).

Theo

On 20/12/2023 08:55, Roland Perry wrote:
> You'd be surprised. People park at the Ely Tesco with no intention of
> shopping there (before they introduced a 3hr limit many caught the train
> from the adjacent station) and as recently as last week I parked at
> Waterloo Station because the nearby hotel (which recommends the station)
> had no parking, nor is there any on-street parking for miles around.

Most local people here use the supermarket car park rather than council
ones, the three hour limit is adequate usually.

Most of us are still p###ed off that the Inverness Council (i.e.
Highland) stopped issuing free permits to one car park to locals and it
was (might still be) the only large town in the council area without
free parking. Go to Dingwall and there is a big car park with no charges.

In message <uluhd1$h5kt$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:58:42 on Wed, 20 Dec
2023, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
>On 20/12/2023 08:55, Roland Perry wrote:

>> You'd be surprised. People park at the Ely Tesco with no intention of
>>shopping there (before they introduced a 3hr limit many caught the
>>train from the adjacent station) and as recently as last week I
>>parked at Waterloo Station because the nearby hotel (which recommends
>>the station) had no parking, nor is there any on-street parking for
>>miles around.
>
>Most local people here use the supermarket car park rather than council
>ones, the three hour limit is adequate usually.
>
>Most of us are still p###ed off that the Inverness Council (i.e.
>Highland) stopped issuing free permits to one car park to locals and it
>was (might still be) the only large town in the council area without
>free parking. Go to Dingwall and there is a big car park with no charges.

I have been to Dingwall, but took the train! However, it was a toss-up
between that and flying from Stansted to Inverness (Easyjet I think and
the fare would have been a fraction of the cost of the train, but we'd
have needed to get to Stansted airport first), then hiring a car. On the
way back we got a taxi from Dingwall to Inverness because the train
times weren't convenient.
--
Roland Perry

On 19/12/2023 23:09, Theo wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If you have lots of charger points and leads, then most parking saces may
>> be within reach of one. That must be the ultimate objective if most cars
>> are to be BEVs. Rather than even small cars hauling around a large, very
>> expensive, heavy battery, it's better if city cars have smaller, cheaper
>> batteries with more opportunities to top up.
>
> These are 22kW charging points, which is likely 22kW three-phase AC. Most
> cars don't have 3-phase onboard chargers (primarily Renault-Nissan do) so
> that's 7kW single-phase. There it'll take ballpark 10 hours to charge a
> family car (70kWh), assuming empty to full. Also some city cars with small
> batteries only have a 3kW charger.

Not sure of your maths - 22kW into 70kWh battery seems to be just over 3
hours from zero to full (and getting to zero in a car is cutting it a
bit tight!). I know you aver that a 22kW charger only charges at 7kW for
a single phase. This is at odds to, for example, the RAC (who should
know what they are talking about) - see
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/charging/electric-car-charging-speeds/

So my comments still apply, 12 hours results in blocking of charge points.

Looking at ZapMap most chargers at stations in Scotland (samples anyway)
are 22kW, although Montrose is only 11kW.

>
> Wiring up more parking spaces for 3-phase 22kW is easy; it's just a 32A
> mains supply to each bay. The EVSEs (the small charging box-onna-stick, or
> wall) can be configured to load share between all the bays, so that if
> everyone plugs in and try to take more current than the supply will bear,
> the charging speed will throttle. As cars become full (or unplugged) the
> pressure on the supply will be less and the remaining cars can each have
> more current. You permute the phases between different bays so the
> single-phase charging load is spread across the three phase supply you have.
>
> This is all standard stuff: it's cheap and easy to do. It's nothing like
> the expense of the equipment and grid connection needed for a rapid charge,
> as you get at motorway services.
>
> So a 12 hour cutoff seems about right: nobody will still be charging by that
> point, but they could still be after 8 or 10 hours. It's a problem for you
> if you leave first thing and only get back at midnight, but that's an edge
> case you should be prepared for if so.
>
> Theo

--
Colin

On 20/12/2023 03:36, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/12/2023 21:53, JMB99 wrote:
>>> On the BBC News pages yesterday.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ScotRail introduces electric car-charging fees at stations
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67748404
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The problem is not really being addressed. If a person parks at a
>> station the chances are that they are taking a train somewhere. The car
>> takes about an hour to charge and then "blocks" the space until the
>> owner returns from his train trip. The £12 fine after 12 hours is laughable.
>>
>
> Two things wrong here - first with your calculations, secondly with
> Scotrail's policy.
>
> Firstly I have no problem with charging being, erm, chargeable - indeed I'm
> surprised that it isn't already!
>
> Very few cars can charge at 22kW AC. It's very much a niche charging input.
> The majority of cars, including mine, will take 7kW at the most from that.
> That'll take almost 10 hours to charge my car from dead flat (obviously I
> wouldn't actually run it that low), ideal for a day out, or indeed a shift
> at work. So nobody (ok, hardly anybody) will be 'charging for an hour then
> blocking the space'.
>
Looking at my spreadsheet I have only used 50kW public chargers. I got
30 kWh in about 45 mins and 19kWh in about 25mins - car is a
bog-standard Kia so no special charging arrangements. So I could fill it
in about 90-100 minutes (64kWh battery).

> According to the article there are an average of 2.8 spaces per station,
> but we don't know how they are distributed or how well they are used. There
> should be, ideally, be enough to meet the demand. I would suggest that if
> power supply is the reason there aren't more (ie, the requirement to be
> able to supply 22kW per space) then perhaps the should have fitted 7kW
> units (you could presumably fit 3x as many for the same power supply?).
>
> The concept of the penalty charge after 12 hours is, as you state,
> ridiculous - ok it'll work for a commuter station (as long as nobody wants
> to do anything in town after work) but renders the chargers basically
> pointless for a leisure day out. 24 hours would perhaps be better?
>

Tend to agree with you - either a 3 hour cut-off or 24 hours but 12 is
ridiculous.

>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

--
Colin

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/12/2023 23:09, Theo wrote:
> > Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> If you have lots of charger points and leads, then most parking saces may
> >> be within reach of one. That must be the ultimate objective if most cars
> >> are to be BEVs. Rather than even small cars hauling around a large, very
> >> expensive, heavy battery, it's better if city cars have smaller, cheaper
> >> batteries with more opportunities to top up.
> >
> > These are 22kW charging points, which is likely 22kW three-phase AC. Most
> > cars don't have 3-phase onboard chargers (primarily Renault-Nissan do) so
> > that's 7kW single-phase. There it'll take ballpark 10 hours to charge a
> > family car (70kWh), assuming empty to full. Also some city cars with small
> > batteries only have a 3kW charger.
>
> Not sure of your maths - 22kW into 70kWh battery seems to be just over 3
> hours from zero to full (and getting to zero in a car is cutting it a
> bit tight!). I know you aver that a 22kW charger only charges at 7kW for
> a single phase. This is at odds to, for example, the RAC (who should
> know what they are talking about) - see
> https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/charging/electric-car-charging-speeds/

Most cars don't have a 22kW internal charger, so plug them into a 22kW
3-phase point and they will only take 7kW single phase. With AC charging
the charger is in the car, so you are limited to what it can take.

The Zoe is one of the few cars with a 3-phase charger, so that is an
example chosen to illustrate the exception rather than the rule.

> So my comments still apply, 12 hours results in blocking of charge points.
>
> Looking at ZapMap most chargers at stations in Scotland (samples anyway)
> are 22kW, although Montrose is only 11kW.

In a commercial setting it's roughly as cheap to install a 3-phase charging
post as a single phase one, so not surprising those are being installed.
But they don't help if your car can't take it.

Here's a list of cars with 22kW support:
https://www.myevreview.com/comparison-chart/ac-charging

It's a short list, and most of those are exotics (Maserati, Rimac, Zeekr,
Pininfarina, Lotus, Lightyear) or we don't get them in the UK (Rivian, Ford
F-150, Chevy Bolt, Cadillac). It basically boils down to Renault Zoe,
Renault Twingo, limited versions of the Mercedes EQS/EQT, Polestar 4 (not
shipping yet) and some Smarts.

There's more cars with 11kW, which is a bit better than 7kW, but still will
take 6 hours to charge a 70kW vehicle.

Theo

On 20/12/2023 11:33, Roland Perry wrote:
> I have been to Dingwall, but took the train!

The railway station conveniently near to the prison! :-)

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/12/2023 23:09, Theo wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> If you have lots of charger points and leads, then most parking saces may
>>> be within reach of one. That must be the ultimate objective if most cars
>>> are to be BEVs. Rather than even small cars hauling around a large, very
>>> expensive, heavy battery, it's better if city cars have smaller, cheaper
>>> batteries with more opportunities to top up.
>>
>> These are 22kW charging points, which is likely 22kW three-phase AC. Most
>> cars don't have 3-phase onboard chargers (primarily Renault-Nissan do) so
>> that's 7kW single-phase. There it'll take ballpark 10 hours to charge a
>> family car (70kWh), assuming empty to full. Also some city cars with small
>> batteries only have a 3kW charger.
>
> Not sure of your maths - 22kW into 70kWh battery seems to be just over 3
> hours from zero to full (and getting to zero in a car is cutting it a
> bit tight!). I know you aver that a 22kW charger only charges at 7kW for
> a single phase. This is at odds to, for example, the RAC (who should
> know what they are talking about) - see
> https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/charging/electric-car-charging-speeds/
>
> So my comments still apply, 12 hours results in blocking of charge points.
>

A quick google suggests that only the Renault Zoe, BMW i3 and a couple of
Tesla models can actually charge at 22kW (possibly some BYD models too).

Chargers at places like railway stations are "destination chargers", the
whole principle is that you leave your car there and if it finishes
charging before you get back well that's life.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 20/12/2023 03:36, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 19/12/2023 21:53, JMB99 wrote:
>>>> On the BBC News pages yesterday.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ScotRail introduces electric car-charging fees at stations
>>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67748404
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The problem is not really being addressed. If a person parks at a
>>> station the chances are that they are taking a train somewhere. The car
>>> takes about an hour to charge and then "blocks" the space until the
>>> owner returns from his train trip. The £12 fine after 12 hours is laughable.
>>>
>>
>> Two things wrong here - first with your calculations, secondly with
>> Scotrail's policy.
>>
>> Firstly I have no problem with charging being, erm, chargeable - indeed I'm
>> surprised that it isn't already!
>>
>> Very few cars can charge at 22kW AC. It's very much a niche charging input.
>> The majority of cars, including mine, will take 7kW at the most from that.
>> That'll take almost 10 hours to charge my car from dead flat (obviously I
>> wouldn't actually run it that low), ideal for a day out, or indeed a shift
>> at work. So nobody (ok, hardly anybody) will be 'charging for an hour then
>> blocking the space'.
>>
> Looking at my spreadsheet I have only used 50kW public chargers. I got
> 30 kWh in about 45 mins and 19kWh in about 25mins - car is a
> bog-standard Kia so no special charging arrangements. So I could fill it
> in about 90-100 minutes (64kWh battery).
>

But these aren't 50kW chargers - vanishingly few cars will be taking
anything over 7kW from them.

>> According to the article there are an average of 2.8 spaces per station,
>> but we don't know how they are distributed or how well they are used. There
>> should be, ideally, be enough to meet the demand. I would suggest that if
>> power supply is the reason there aren't more (ie, the requirement to be
>> able to supply 22kW per space) then perhaps the should have fitted 7kW
>> units (you could presumably fit 3x as many for the same power supply?).
>>
>> The concept of the penalty charge after 12 hours is, as you state,
>> ridiculous - ok it'll work for a commuter station (as long as nobody wants
>> to do anything in town after work) but renders the chargers basically
>> pointless for a leisure day out. 24 hours would perhaps be better?
>>
>
> Tend to agree with you - either a 3 hour cut-off or 24 hours but 12 is
> ridiculous.
>

3 hours would be even more pointless!

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 17:03:57 +0000, JMB99 wrote:
> On 20/12/2023 11:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>> I have been to Dingwall, but took the train!
>
> The railway station conveniently near to the prison! :-)

There's no prison in Dingwall. There's one in Inverness, but it's in
Crown, not particularly convenient for the station. Though the new
Inverness Prison will be right next to Cradlehall Station, assuming that
both of those get built (which is far from certain).

Mike

On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 19:22:04 +0000, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/12/2023 23:09, Theo wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> If you have lots of charger points and leads, then most parking saces
>>>> may be within reach of one. That must be the ultimate objective if
>>>> most cars are to be BEVs. Rather than even small cars hauling around
>>>> a large, very expensive, heavy battery, it's better if city cars have
>>>> smaller, cheaper batteries with more opportunities to top up.
>>>
>>> These are 22kW charging points, which is likely 22kW three-phase AC.
>>> Most cars don't have 3-phase onboard chargers (primarily
>>> Renault-Nissan do) so that's 7kW single-phase. There it'll take
>>> ballpark 10 hours to charge a family car (70kWh), assuming empty to
>>> full. Also some city cars with small batteries only have a 3kW
>>> charger.
>>
>> Not sure of your maths - 22kW into 70kWh battery seems to be just over
>> 3 hours from zero to full (and getting to zero in a car is cutting it a
>> bit tight!). I know you aver that a 22kW charger only charges at 7kW
>> for a single phase. This is at odds to, for example, the RAC (who
>> should know what they are talking about) - see
>> https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/charging/electric-car-
charging-speeds/
>>
>> So my comments still apply, 12 hours results in blocking of charge
>> points.
>>
>>
> A quick google suggests that only the Renault Zoe, BMW i3 and a couple
> of Tesla models can actually charge at 22kW (possibly some BYD models
> too).
>
> Chargers at places like railway stations are "destination chargers", the
> whole principle is that you leave your car there and if it finishes
> charging before you get back well that's life.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver

Indeed, as a Zoe driver I notice the paucity of 22kW AC public chargers,
and I'm surprised anyone is installing more. Even when I bought my Zoe DC
charging was an extra cost option and soon after it became standard on
some. Most chargers now appear to be either 7kW AC destination chargers
(basically a single-phase mains connection with metering) or DC (50kW or
more) in-journey chargers (big things with lots of power electronics).

nib

On 20/12/2023 19:40, Mike Humphrey wrote:
> There's no prison in Dingwall. There's one in Inverness, but it's in
> Crown, not particularly convenient for the station. Though the new
> Inverness Prison will be right next to Cradlehall Station, assuming that
> both of those get built (which is far from certain).

I was joking, the historic Dingwall Prison was near the railway station.

https://her.highland.gov.uk/monument/MHG45131

Am 20.12.2023 um 21:09 schrieb nib:
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 19:22:04 +0000, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 19/12/2023 23:09, Theo wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> If you have lots of charger points and leads, then most parking saces
>>>>> may be within reach of one. That must be the ultimate objective if
>>>>> most cars are to be BEVs. Rather than even small cars hauling around
>>>>> a large, very expensive, heavy battery, it's better if city cars have
>>>>> smaller, cheaper batteries with more opportunities to top up.
>>>>
>>>> These are 22kW charging points, which is likely 22kW three-phase AC.
>>>> Most cars don't have 3-phase onboard chargers (primarily
>>>> Renault-Nissan do) so that's 7kW single-phase. There it'll take
>>>> ballpark 10 hours to charge a family car (70kWh), assuming empty to
>>>> full. Also some city cars with small batteries only have a 3kW
>>>> charger.
>>>
>>> Not sure of your maths - 22kW into 70kWh battery seems to be just over
>>> 3 hours from zero to full (and getting to zero in a car is cutting it a
>>> bit tight!). I know you aver that a 22kW charger only charges at 7kW
>>> for a single phase. This is at odds to, for example, the RAC (who
>>> should know what they are talking about) - see
>>> https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/charging/electric-car-
> charging-speeds/
>>>
>>> So my comments still apply, 12 hours results in blocking of charge
>>> points.
>>>
>>>
>> A quick google suggests that only the Renault Zoe, BMW i3 and a couple
>> of Tesla models can actually charge at 22kW (possibly some BYD models
>> too).
>>
>> Chargers at places like railway stations are "destination chargers", the
>> whole principle is that you leave your car there and if it finishes
>> charging before you get back well that's life.
>
> Indeed, as a Zoe driver I notice the paucity of 22kW AC public chargers,
> and I'm surprised anyone is installing more. Even when I bought my Zoe DC
> charging was an extra cost option and soon after it became standard on
> some. Most chargers now appear to be either 7kW AC destination chargers
> (basically a single-phase mains connection with metering) or DC (50kW or
> more) in-journey chargers (big things with lots of power electronics).

Interesting how the situation is completely different in Germany: I know
of next to no AC charger unable to deliver at least 22kW, and several
supermarket DC chargers provide an additional 22kW AC outlet as well
(OK, some research points to a project of 'lantern overnight charging'
in Berlin suburbs with newly installe 7kW points).

In France, one big supermarket chain offer "1 hour free AC charging" for
customers with their supermarket card, so their AC charge points are
often more in demand than their parallel DC and HPC points. Lidl France
long-term aims to have 22kW AC charging at 10% of their parking
positions (plus 4 fast HPC bays per supermarket).

Rolf

In message <um0vvp$10pvr$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:53 on Thu, 21 Dec
2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>Am 20.12.2023 um 21:09 schrieb nib:
>> On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 19:22:04 +0000, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>
>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 19/12/2023 23:09, Theo wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> If you have lots of charger points and leads, then most parking saces
>>>>>> may be within reach of one. That must be the ultimate objective if
>>>>>> most cars are to be BEVs. Rather than even small cars hauling around
>>>>>> a large, very expensive, heavy battery, it's better if city cars have
>>>>>> smaller, cheaper batteries with more opportunities to top up.
>>>>>
>>>>> These are 22kW charging points, which is likely 22kW three-phase AC.
>>>>> Most cars don't have 3-phase onboard chargers (primarily
>>>>> Renault-Nissan do) so that's 7kW single-phase. There it'll take
>>>>> ballpark 10 hours to charge a family car (70kWh), assuming empty to
>>>>> full. Also some city cars with small batteries only have a 3kW
>>>>> charger.
>>>>
>>>> Not sure of your maths - 22kW into 70kWh battery seems to be just over
>>>> 3 hours from zero to full (and getting to zero in a car is cutting it a
>>>> bit tight!). I know you aver that a 22kW charger only charges at 7kW
>>>> for a single phase. This is at odds to, for example, the RAC (who
>>>> should know what they are talking about) - see
>>>> https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/charging/electric-car-
>> charging-speeds/
>>>>
>>>> So my comments still apply, 12 hours results in blocking of charge
>>>> points.
>>>>
>>> A quick google suggests that only the Renault Zoe, BMW i3 and a couple
>>> of Tesla models can actually charge at 22kW (possibly some BYD models
>>> too).
>>>
>>> Chargers at places like railway stations are "destination chargers", the
>>> whole principle is that you leave your car there and if it finishes
>>> charging before you get back well that's life.

>> Indeed, as a Zoe driver I notice the paucity of 22kW AC public
>>chargers, and I'm surprised anyone is installing more. Even when I
>>bought my Zoe DC charging was an extra cost option and soon after it
>>became standard on some. Most chargers now appear to be either 7kW AC
>>destination chargers (basically a single-phase mains connection with
>>metering) or DC (50kW or more) in-journey chargers (big things with
>>lots of power electronics).
>
>Interesting how the situation is completely different in Germany: I
>know of next to no AC charger unable to deliver at least 22kW,

But isn't the problem next-to-no cars able to accept 22kW. So a classic
case of over-promising and under-delivering.

>and several supermarket DC chargers provide an additional 22kW AC
>outlet as well (OK, some research points to a project of 'lantern
>overnight charging' in Berlin suburbs with newly installe 7kW points).
>
>In France, one big supermarket chain offer "1 hour free AC charging"
>for customers with their supermarket card, so their AC charge points
>are often more in demand than their parallel DC and HPC points. Lidl
>France long-term aims to have 22kW AC charging at 10% of their parking
>positions (plus 4 fast HPC bays per supermarket).
>
>Rolf
>
>
>

--
Roland Perry