Am 21.12.2023 um 11:11 schrieb Roland Perry:
> In message <um0vvp$10pvr$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:53 on Thu, 21 Dec
> 2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>> Am 20.12.2023 um 21:09 schrieb nib:
>>> On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 19:22:04 +0000, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 19/12/2023 23:09, Theo wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> If you have lots of charger points and leads, then most parking
>>>>>>> saces
>>>>>>> may be within reach of one. That must be the ultimate objective if
>>>>>>> most cars are to be BEVs. Rather than even small cars hauling around
>>>>>>> a large, very expensive, heavy battery, it's better if city cars
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> smaller, cheaper batteries with more opportunities to top up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These are 22kW charging points, which is likely 22kW three-phase AC.
>>>>>> Most cars don't have 3-phase onboard chargers (primarily
>>>>>> Renault-Nissan do) so that's 7kW single-phase.  There it'll take
>>>>>> ballpark 10 hours to charge a family car (70kWh), assuming empty to
>>>>>> full.  Also some city cars with small batteries only have a 3kW
>>>>>> charger.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure of your maths - 22kW into 70kWh battery seems to be just over
>>>>> 3 hours from zero to full (and getting to zero in a car is cutting
>>>>> it a
>>>>> bit tight!). I know you aver that a 22kW charger only charges at 7kW
>>>>> for a single phase. This is at odds to, for example, the RAC (who
>>>>> should know what they are talking about) - see
>>>>> https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/charging/electric-car-
>>> charging-speeds/
>>>>>
>>>>> So my comments still apply, 12 hours results in blocking of charge
>>>>> points.
>>>>>
>>>> A quick google suggests that only the Renault Zoe, BMW i3 and a couple
>>>> of Tesla models can actually charge at 22kW (possibly some BYD models
>>>> too).
>>>>
>>>> Chargers at places like railway stations are "destination chargers",
>>>> the
>>>> whole principle is that you leave your car there and if it finishes
>>>> charging before you get back well that's life.
>
>>>  Indeed, as a Zoe driver I notice the paucity of 22kW AC public
>>> chargers,  and I'm surprised anyone is installing more. Even when I
>>> bought my Zoe DC  charging was an extra cost option and soon after it
>>> became standard on  some. Most chargers now appear to be either 7kW
>>> AC destination chargers  (basically a single-phase mains connection
>>> with metering) or DC (50kW or  more) in-journey chargers (big things
>>> with lots of power electronics).
>>
>> Interesting how the situation is completely different in Germany: I
>> know of next to no AC charger unable to deliver at least 22kW,
>
> But isn't the problem next-to-no cars able to accept 22kW. So a classic
> case of over-promising and under-delivering.

Even if only 5%-10% of electric cars accept 22kW, it is very useful for
those people to be able to charge with 22kW, and at little extra cost,
given that 22kW is the combination of the common 11kW (three-phase 16A)
and 7kW (one-phase 32A) scenarios: you want to be able to deliver 7kW
over a one-phase cable, and you want to be able to fully utilize a
three-phase cable.

Similarly, if a fuel station offer autogas, this is no over-promise to
the 99% of cars not needing autogas.

In message <um19j8$12hc5$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:03:51 on Thu, 21 Dec
2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>Am 21.12.2023 um 11:11 schrieb Roland Perry:
>> In message <um0vvp$10pvr$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:53 on Thu, 21 Dec
>>2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>> Am 20.12.2023 um 21:09 schrieb nib:
>>>> On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 19:22:04 +0000, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 19/12/2023 23:09, Theo wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>>>>> If you have lots of charger points and leads, then most parking
>>>>>>>>saces may be within reach of one. That must be the ultimate
>>>>>>>>objective if most cars are to be BEVs. Rather than even small
>>>>>>>>cars hauling around a large, very expensive, heavy battery,
>>>>>>>>it's better if city cars have smaller, cheaper batteries with
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These are 22kW charging points, which is likely 22kW three-phase AC.
>>>>>>> Most cars don't have 3-phase onboard chargers (primarily
>>>>>>> Renault-Nissan do) so that's 7kW single-phase.  There it'll take
>>>>>>> ballpark 10 hours to charge a family car (70kWh), assuming empty to
>>>>>>> full.  Also some city cars with small batteries only have a 3kW
>>>>>>> charger.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not sure of your maths - 22kW into 70kWh battery seems to be just
>>>>>>over 3 hours from zero to full (and getting to zero in a car is
>>>>>>cutting it a bit tight!). I know you aver that a 22kW charger
>>>>>>only charges at 7kW for a single phase. This is at odds to, for
>>>>>>example, the RAC (who should know what they are talking about) -
>>>>>>see https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/charging/electric-car- charging-speeds/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So my comments still apply, 12 hours results in blocking of charge
>>>>>> points.
>>>>>>
>>>>> A quick google suggests that only the Renault Zoe, BMW i3 and a couple
>>>>> of Tesla models can actually charge at 22kW (possibly some BYD models
>>>>> too).
>>>>>
>>>>> Chargers at places like railway stations are "destination
>>>>>chargers", the whole principle is that you leave your car there
>>>>>and if it finishes charging before you get back well that's life.
>>
>>>>  Indeed, as a Zoe driver I notice the paucity of 22kW AC public
>>>>chargers,  and I'm surprised anyone is installing more. Even when I
>>>>bought my Zoe DC  charging was an extra cost option and soon after
>>>>it became standard on  some. Most chargers now appear to be either
>>>>7kW AC destination chargers  (basically a single-phase mains
>>>>connection with metering) or DC (50kW or  more) in-journey chargers
>>>>(big things with lots of power electronics).
>>>
>>> Interesting how the situation is completely different in Germany: I
>>>know of next to no AC charger unable to deliver at least 22kW,

>> But isn't the problem next-to-no cars able to accept 22kW. So a
>>classic case of over-promising and under-delivering.
>
>Even if only 5%-10% of electric cars accept 22kW, it is very useful for
>those people to be able to charge with 22kW, and at little extra cost,

But they should be advertised as 7kW-22kW chargers.

Tenuously getting back to trains, EuroStar used to advertise the
end-to-end time of one solitary early morning non-stop service, and
imply that's what all their trains achieved.

>given that 22kW is the combination of the common 11kW (three-phase 16A)
>and 7kW (one-phase 32A) scenarios: you want to be able to deliver 7kW
>over a one-phase cable, and you want to be able to fully utilize a
>three-phase cable.
>
>Similarly, if a fuel station offer autogas, this is no over-promise to
>the 99% of cars not needing autogas.

Neither should they advertise the pence-per-mile of autogas as what the
other 99% of customers might expect to achieve from their more highly
taxed traditional fuel.
--
Roland Perry

Am 21.12.2023 um 14:48 schrieb Roland Perry:
> In message <um19j8$12hc5$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:03:51 on Thu, 21 Dec
> 2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>> Am 21.12.2023 um 11:11 schrieb Roland Perry:
>>> In message <um0vvp$10pvr$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:53 on Thu, 21 Dec
>>> 2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>> Am 20.12.2023 um 21:09 schrieb nib:
>>>>> On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 19:22:04 +0000, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 19/12/2023 23:09, Theo wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>> If you have lots of charger points and leads, then most parking
>>>>>>>>> saces  may be within reach of one. That must be the ultimate
>>>>>>>>> objective if  most cars are to be BEVs. Rather than even small
>>>>>>>>> cars hauling around  a large, very expensive, heavy battery,
>>>>>>>>> it's better if city cars  have  smaller, cheaper batteries with
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> These are 22kW charging points, which is likely 22kW three-phase
>>>>>>>> AC.
>>>>>>>> Most cars don't have 3-phase onboard chargers (primarily
>>>>>>>> Renault-Nissan do) so that's 7kW single-phase.  There it'll take
>>>>>>>> ballpark 10 hours to charge a family car (70kWh), assuming empty to
>>>>>>>> full.  Also some city cars with small batteries only have a 3kW
>>>>>>>> charger.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not sure of your maths - 22kW into 70kWh battery seems to be just
>>>>>>> over  3 hours from zero to full (and getting to zero in a car is
>>>>>>> cutting  it a  bit tight!). I know you aver that a 22kW charger
>>>>>>> only charges at 7kW  for a single phase. This is at odds to, for
>>>>>>> example, the RAC (who  should know what they are talking about) -
>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>> https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/charging/electric-car-
>>>>>>> charging-speeds/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So my comments still apply, 12 hours results in blocking of charge
>>>>>>> points.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> A quick google suggests that only the Renault Zoe, BMW i3 and a
>>>>>> couple
>>>>>> of Tesla models can actually charge at 22kW (possibly some BYD models
>>>>>> too).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chargers at places like railway stations are "destination
>>>>>> chargers",  the  whole principle is that you leave your car there
>>>>>> and if it finishes  charging before you get back well that's life.
>>>
>>>>>  Indeed, as a Zoe driver I notice the paucity of 22kW AC public
>>>>> chargers,  and I'm surprised anyone is installing more. Even when I
>>>>> bought my Zoe DC  charging was an extra cost option and soon after
>>>>> it  became standard on  some. Most chargers now appear to be either
>>>>> 7kW  AC destination chargers  (basically a single-phase mains
>>>>> connection  with metering) or DC (50kW or  more) in-journey
>>>>> chargers (big things  with lots of power electronics).
>>>>
>>>> Interesting how the situation is completely different in Germany: I
>>>> know of next to no AC charger unable to deliver at least 22kW,
>
>>>  But isn't the problem next-to-no cars able to accept 22kW. So a
>>> classic  case of over-promising and under-delivering.
>>
>> Even if only 5%-10% of electric cars accept 22kW, it is very useful
>> for those people to be able to charge with 22kW, and at little extra
>> cost,
>
> But they should be advertised as 7kW-22kW chargers.

Why 7-22kW rather than 3-22kW? After all, there are some cars that
charge with a maximum speed of 3.? kW (16A one-phase).
In electric car chargers, there is the implicit understanding that the
car and the charging infrastructure negotiate an appropriate charging speed.

On DC charging, the charging speed varies even more, especially in
winter. My car, rated 45kW and the charging station, rated 150kW,
recently negotiated the following charge curve:

<https://c.web.de/@400983237561686924/nCMA30ylSw6LpIMJ3mahGg>

Outside temperature was around freezing, and the car refused anything
above 10kW to start with. After 20-30 minutes, the battery was a) warm
and b) over 15% full, and the car increased the charge rate until at 70%
full, it was reduced again to minimize battery aging. Charging 0 to 80%
took close to 30 minutes more than in summer.

Rolf

On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 09:10:04 +0000, JMB99 wrote:
> On 20/12/2023 19:40, Mike Humphrey wrote:
>> There's no prison in Dingwall. There's one in Inverness, but it's in
>> Crown, not particularly convenient for the station. Though the new
>> Inverness Prison will be right next to Cradlehall Station, assuming
>> that both of those get built (which is far from certain).
>
> I was joking, the historic Dingwall Prison was near the railway station.
> https://her.highland.gov.uk/monument/MHG45131

Well I learned something new! I was aware of that building, but thought it
was only the courthouse - it seems it was also the police station and
prison. So you could be questioned, tried, and serve your sentence, all
without leaving the building - something of a one-stop-shop!

The new Inverness Prison is here:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/15tC4m3kEfMGTpDE6
Construction on the prison has started. The new station is supposed to be
roughly at the back of the prison site, but there doesn't seem to be a
detailed plan yet, never mind any construction.

Mike

On 21/12/2023 17:44, Mike Humphrey wrote:
> Well I learned something new! I was aware of that building, but thought it
> was only the courthouse - it seems it was also the police station and
> prison. So you could be questioned, tried, and serve your sentence, all
> without leaving the building - something of a one-stop-shop!

Or probably hung and leave in a box!

On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 17:44:37 -0000 (UTC), Mike Humphrey
<mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 09:10:04 +0000, JMB99 wrote:
>> On 20/12/2023 19:40, Mike Humphrey wrote:
>>> There's no prison in Dingwall. There's one in Inverness, but it's in
>>> Crown, not particularly convenient for the station. Though the new
>>> Inverness Prison will be right next to Cradlehall Station, assuming
>>> that both of those get built (which is far from certain).
>>
>> I was joking, the historic Dingwall Prison was near the railway station.
>> https://her.highland.gov.uk/monument/MHG45131
>
>Well I learned something new! I was aware of that building, but thought it
>was only the courthouse - it seems it was also the police station and
>prison. So you could be questioned, tried, and serve your sentence, all
>without leaving the building - something of a one-stop-shop!

That used to be fairly common. In many places, the prison was in the
basement, and the courtrooms were upstairs. That's the origin of the phrase
"sent down", meaning committed to prison - it often literally meant taken
downstairs.

Dover Town Hall once contained not only the council chamber, but also a
police station, a courtoom and the town's prison. So the same room contained
the people making the laws and employing the police who caught the criminals
who were tried and imprisoned in the same building.

Mark

Recliner wrote:

> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> > On 19/12/2023 22:27, Recliner wrote:
> >> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> On 19/12/2023 21:53, JMB99 wrote:
> >>>> On the BBC News pages yesterday.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ScotRail introduces electric car-charging fees at stations
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67748404
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> The problem is not really being addressed. If a person parks at a
> >>> station the chances are that they are taking a train somewhere.
> The car >>> takes about an hour to charge and then "blocks" the space
> until the >>> owner returns from his train trip. The £12 fine after
> 12 hours is laughable. >>>
> >>
> >> I wonder if the tech would allow a number of multiplexed charging
> points? >> So there might only be the capacity to actually charge,
> say, five cars >> concurrently, but have, say, 30 metered charging
> points. Each car would be >> limited to, say, 40 kW-h per stay, but
> that might be delivered over several >> hours, depending on demand
> and available capacity. There might be a short >> initial charge of,
> say, 10 kW-h so that every parked EV gets at least a >> small charge
> to get them home, but it might take several hours to get the >> full
> 40. >>
> >
> > It is not the charging problem (some chargers have more than one
> > car park space that cables can reach) but it is the blocking of the
> > car park spaces, not the "blocking" of the ability to charge.
> >
>
> If you have lots of charger points and leads, then most parking saces
> may be within reach of one. That must be the ultimate objective if
> most cars are to be BEVs. Rather than even small cars hauling around
> a large, very expensive, heavy battery, it's better if city cars have
> smaller, cheaper batteries with more opportunities to top up.

An alternative is to design cars such that the batteries can be swapped
easily (discarged for fully-charged), as in
https://youtu.be/hNZy603as5w?si=Sc0aBhO2xwtQ9B47

On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 20:38:39 -0000 (UTC), "David Jones"
<dajhawk18xx@@nowhere.com> wrote:

>Recliner wrote:
>
>> If you have lots of charger points and leads, then most parking saces
>> may be within reach of one. That must be the ultimate objective if
>> most cars are to be BEVs. Rather than even small cars hauling around
>> a large, very expensive, heavy battery, it's better if city cars have
>> smaller, cheaper batteries with more opportunities to top up.
>
>An alternative is to design cars such that the batteries can be swapped
>easily (discarged for fully-charged), as in
>https://youtu.be/hNZy603as5w?si=Sc0aBhO2xwtQ9B47

A good discussion of that can be found here:

https://www.popsci.com/science/electric-car-battery-swap/

Mark

David Jones <dajhawk18xx@@nowhere.com> wrote:
> Recliner wrote:
>
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 19/12/2023 22:27, Recliner wrote:
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 19/12/2023 21:53, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>> On the BBC News pages yesterday.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ScotRail introduces electric car-charging fees at stations
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67748404
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem is not really being addressed. If a person parks at a
>>>>> station the chances are that they are taking a train somewhere.
>> The car >>> takes about an hour to charge and then "blocks" the space
>> until the >>> owner returns from his train trip. The £12 fine after
>> 12 hours is laughable. >>>
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if the tech would allow a number of multiplexed charging
>> points? >> So there might only be the capacity to actually charge,
>> say, five cars >> concurrently, but have, say, 30 metered charging
>> points. Each car would be >> limited to, say, 40 kW-h per stay, but
>> that might be delivered over several >> hours, depending on demand
>> and available capacity. There might be a short >> initial charge of,
>> say, 10 kW-h so that every parked EV gets at least a >> small charge
>> to get them home, but it might take several hours to get the >> full
>> 40. >>
>>>
>>> It is not the charging problem (some chargers have more than one
>>> car park space that cables can reach) but it is the blocking of the
>>> car park spaces, not the "blocking" of the ability to charge.
>>>
>>
>> If you have lots of charger points and leads, then most parking saces
>> may be within reach of one. That must be the ultimate objective if
>> most cars are to be BEVs. Rather than even small cars hauling around
>> a large, very expensive, heavy battery, it's better if city cars have
>> smaller, cheaper batteries with more opportunities to top up.
>
> An alternative is to design cars such that the batteries can be swapped
> easily (discarged for fully-charged), as in
> https://youtu.be/hNZy603as5w?si=Sc0aBhO2xwtQ9B47
>

Great until you get someone else’s duff battery.