The driver was not harmed but the cab certainly was.

<https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/uk-weather-christmas-travellers-warned-of-storm-gerrit-hazards>

On 27/12/2023 18:47, Certes wrote:
> The driver was not harmed but the cab certainly was.
>
> <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/uk-weather-christmas-travellers-warned-of-storm-gerrit-hazards>
Ouch! That's quite a mess.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 27/12/2023 18:47, Certes wrote:
>> The driver was not harmed but the cab certainly was.
>>
>> <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/uk-weather-christmas-travellers-warned-of-storm-gerrit-hazards>
> Ouch! That's quite a mess.

Presumably the driver retreated from the cab before the impact? I'm sure
Anna can tell us more…

On 27/12/2023 20:55, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 27/12/2023 18:47, Certes wrote:
>>> The driver was not harmed but the cab certainly was.
>>>
>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/uk-weather-christmas-travellers-warned-of-storm-gerrit-hazards>
>> Ouch! That's quite a mess.
>
> Presumably the driver retreated from the cab before the impact? I'm sure
> Anna can tell us more…
>

Or at least ducked down.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 27/12/2023 18:47, Certes wrote:
> The driver was not harmed but the cab certainly was.
>
> <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/uk-weather-christmas-travellers-warned-of-storm-gerrit-hazards>

Another nail in the HSTs coffin. They'll be withdrawn sooner now. The
Scottish Drivers came to an agreement last year to continue using them,
following the deaths after hitting the landslide near Stonehaven , now
showing this damage, they will want them withdrawn quicker.
--
Remove the '+' and replace with 'plus' to reply by email

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 08:55:22 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
wrote:

>On 27/12/2023 18:47, Certes wrote:
>> The driver was not harmed but the cab certainly was.
>>
>> <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/uk-weather-christmas-travellers-warned-of-storm-gerrit-hazards>
>
>Another nail in the HSTs coffin. They'll be withdrawn sooner now. The
>Scottish Drivers came to an agreement last year to continue using them,
>following the deaths after hitting the landslide near Stonehaven , now
>showing this damage, they will want them withdrawn quicker.

Would a different train type have fared any better?

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 09:25:48 +0000, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 08:55:22 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 27/12/2023 18:47, Certes wrote:
>>> The driver was not harmed but the cab certainly was.
>>>
>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/uk-weather-christmas-travellers-warned-of-storm-gerrit-hazards>
>>
>>Another nail in the HSTs coffin. They'll be withdrawn sooner now. The
>>Scottish Drivers came to an agreement last year to continue using them,
>>following the deaths after hitting the landslide near Stonehaven , now
>>showing this damage, they will want them withdrawn quicker.
>
>Would a different train type have fared any better?

Yes. Read the Carmont RAIB report
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62294108d3bf7f1581a6eb03/R022022_220310_Carmont.pdf

On 27/12/2023 18:47, Certes wrote:
> The driver was not harmed but the cab certainly was.
>
> <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/uk-weather-christmas-travellers-warned-of-storm-gerrit-hazards>

"South of Dundee" is the Firth of Tay, which contains very few trees.
Further checking produced this report. .

https://news.stv.tv/north/front-of-train-destroyed-following-shocking-crash-with-fallen-tree

Further further checking on the website of the local paper indicates the
crash occurred "between Barry Links and Dundee". Barry is about 10 miles
east of Dundee.

On 28/12/2023 09:25, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 08:55:22 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 27/12/2023 18:47, Certes wrote:
>>> The driver was not harmed but the cab certainly was.
>>>
>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/uk-weather-christmas-travellers-warned-of-storm-gerrit-hazards>
>>
>> Another nail in the HSTs coffin. They'll be withdrawn sooner now. The
>> Scottish Drivers came to an agreement last year to continue using them,
>> following the deaths after hitting the landslide near Stonehaven , now
>> showing this damage, they will want them withdrawn quicker.
>
> Would a different train type have fared any better?

Yes, its the fibreglass that makes it nowhere near as crash compliant as
modern vehicles.The pictures show, really well, the fibreglass panels in
the top left corner have totally shattered.
Compare a Ford Cortina from 1976 with a Ford Focus of today, you'd be
lucky to get away without major injuries in a big crash in the Cortina,
the same crash in the Focus, and people walk away with a little
stiffness. Or, with the HST, a Reliant Robin maybe a better comparison
of frontal damage.
Decent pics below linked:
<https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/dundee/4851471/broughty-ferry-train-tree-storm-gerrit/>

<https://news.stv.tv/north/front-of-train-destroyed-following-shocking-crash-with-fallen-tree>

--
Remove the '+' and replace with 'plus' to reply by email

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 10:19:46 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
wrote:

>On 28/12/2023 09:25, Scott wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 08:55:22 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 27/12/2023 18:47, Certes wrote:
>>>> The driver was not harmed but the cab certainly was.
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/uk-weather-christmas-travellers-warned-of-storm-gerrit-hazards>
>>>
>>> Another nail in the HSTs coffin. They'll be withdrawn sooner now. The
>>> Scottish Drivers came to an agreement last year to continue using them,
>>> following the deaths after hitting the landslide near Stonehaven , now
>>> showing this damage, they will want them withdrawn quicker.
>>
>> Would a different train type have fared any better?
>
>Yes, its the fibreglass that makes it nowhere near as crash compliant as
>modern vehicles.The pictures show, really well, the fibreglass panels in
>the top left corner have totally shattered.
>Compare a Ford Cortina from 1976 with a Ford Focus of today, you'd be
>lucky to get away without major injuries in a big crash in the Cortina,
>the same crash in the Focus, and people walk away with a little
>stiffness. Or, with the HST, a Reliant Robin maybe a better comparison
>of frontal damage.
>Decent pics below linked:
><https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/dundee/4851471/broughty-ferry-train-tree-storm-gerrit/>
>
><https://news.stv.tv/north/front-of-train-destroyed-following-shocking-crash-with-fallen-tree>

Thanks for clarifying. I think you are right about withdrawal. Like
the Routemaster bus, they do not enjoy the same loyal following as
they do in the south. Also, I understand fuel consumption is a major
concern with ScotRail preferring to substitute Class 158s (or is it
170s?). What can we have instead given I assume procurement of new
diesel trains is out the the question?

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 10:19:46 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 28/12/2023 09:25, Scott wrote:
>>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 08:55:22 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 27/12/2023 18:47, Certes wrote:
>>>>> The driver was not harmed but the cab certainly was.
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/uk-weather-christmas-travellers-warned-of-storm-gerrit-hazards>
>>>>
>>>> Another nail in the HSTs coffin. They'll be withdrawn sooner now. The
>>>> Scottish Drivers came to an agreement last year to continue using them,
>>>> following the deaths after hitting the landslide near Stonehaven , now
>>>> showing this damage, they will want them withdrawn quicker.
>>>
>>> Would a different train type have fared any better?
>>
>> Yes, its the fibreglass that makes it nowhere near as crash compliant as
>> modern vehicles.The pictures show, really well, the fibreglass panels in
>> the top left corner have totally shattered.
>> Compare a Ford Cortina from 1976 with a Ford Focus of today, you'd be
>> lucky to get away without major injuries in a big crash in the Cortina,
>> the same crash in the Focus, and people walk away with a little
>> stiffness. Or, with the HST, a Reliant Robin maybe a better comparison
>> of frontal damage.
>> Decent pics below linked:
>> <https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/dundee/4851471/broughty-ferry-train-tree-storm-gerrit/>
>>
>> <https://news.stv.tv/north/front-of-train-destroyed-following-shocking-crash-with-fallen-tree>
>
> Thanks for clarifying. I think you are right about withdrawal. Like
> the Routemaster bus, they do not enjoy the same loyal following as
> they do in the south. Also, I understand fuel consumption is a major
> concern with ScotRail preferring to substitute Class 158s (or is it
> 170s?). What can we have instead given I assume procurement of new
> diesel trains is out the the question?
>
Would a follow on order for the class 810 being constructed for the MML be
an idea? Can use the OHLE where available, as enough Diesel grunt
otherwise, and allegedly will have more comfortable seats.

On 28/12/2023 10:42, Scott wrote:
> Thanks for clarifying. I think you are right about withdrawal. Like
> the Routemaster bus, they do not enjoy the same loyal following as
> they do in the south. Also, I understand fuel consumption is a major
> concern with ScotRail preferring to substitute Class 158s (or is it
> 170s?). What can we have instead given I assume procurement of new
> diesel trains is out the the question?

Some 180's are going spare, there's load of locos and hauled stock
available after TPX retired the 68's.
More likely would be to put the Scotrail 170's on the HST diagrams,
these were going to be cascaded to get rid of their 156's.
The Loco hauled ex-TPX would be the easiest,and best option IMO, but I
think they are more expensive to run.

--
Remove the '+' and replace with 'plus' to reply by email

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 10:19:46 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 28/12/2023 09:25, Scott wrote:
>>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 08:55:22 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 27/12/2023 18:47, Certes wrote:
>>>>> The driver was not harmed but the cab certainly was.
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/uk-weather-christmas-travellers-warned-of-storm-gerrit-hazards>
>>>>
>>>> Another nail in the HSTs coffin. They'll be withdrawn sooner now. The
>>>> Scottish Drivers came to an agreement last year to continue using them,
>>>> following the deaths after hitting the landslide near Stonehaven , now
>>>> showing this damage, they will want them withdrawn quicker.
>>>
>>> Would a different train type have fared any better?
>>
>> Yes, its the fibreglass that makes it nowhere near as crash compliant as
>> modern vehicles.The pictures show, really well, the fibreglass panels in
>> the top left corner have totally shattered.
>> Compare a Ford Cortina from 1976 with a Ford Focus of today, you'd be
>> lucky to get away without major injuries in a big crash in the Cortina,
>> the same crash in the Focus, and people walk away with a little
>> stiffness. Or, with the HST, a Reliant Robin maybe a better comparison
>> of frontal damage.
>> Decent pics below linked:
>> <https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/dundee/4851471/broughty-ferry-train-tree-storm-gerrit/>
>>
>> <https://news.stv.tv/north/front-of-train-destroyed-following-shocking-crash-with-fallen-tree>
>
> Thanks for clarifying. I think you are right about withdrawal. Like
> the Routemaster bus, they do not enjoy the same loyal following as
> they do in the south. Also, I understand fuel consumption is a major
> concern with ScotRail preferring to substitute Class 158s (or is it
> 170s?). What can we have instead given I assume procurement of new
> diesel trains is out the the question?

New DMUs are being bought in England and Wales, plus there are several
bimode options.

On 28/12/2023 10:57, Tweed wrote:
> Would a follow on order for the class 810 being constructed for the MML be
> an idea? Can use the OHLE where available, as enough Diesel grunt
> otherwise, and allegedly will have more comfortable seats.

It's money. The Scottish Government have had a railway spending frenzy
over the last 10 years, they are finally realising it cannot go on. I
cannot see them buying new stock - even 5 years ago they took the
cheaper option by refurbing the HSTs.
A bi mode /diesel and electric would be the preferred option, wires are
up to Stirling now, Perth is planned, but I think that will go on the
backburner, the Scot. Govmt are more focused on central belt commuting,
thats where the bulk of journeys are.
For a cheaper, easy solution, they could lease the 68's and stock, this
will be cheaper than new stock, and the 40 miles of running diesel under
the wires isnt too bad in a 100 mile+ journey.
The HST cost (if withdrawn) will have to be written off, putting more
pressure on spending plans.

--
Remove the '+' and replace with 'plus' to reply by email

Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote:
> On 28/12/2023 10:42, Scott wrote:
>> Thanks for clarifying. I think you are right about withdrawal. Like
>> the Routemaster bus, they do not enjoy the same loyal following as
>> they do in the south. Also, I understand fuel consumption is a major
>> concern with ScotRail preferring to substitute Class 158s (or is it
>> 170s?). What can we have instead given I assume procurement of new
>> diesel trains is out the the question?
>
> Some 180's are going spare, there's load of locos and hauled stock
> available after TPX retired the 68's.
> More likely would be to put the Scotrail 170's on the HST diagrams,
> these were going to be cascaded to get rid of their 156's.
> The Loco hauled ex-TPX would be the easiest,and best option IMO, but I
> think they are more expensive to run.

I don't think there are enough Mk 5a carriages to replace all the
Inter7City sets. But what about Mk 4s with DVTs and class 67/68 locos?

On 28/12/2023 10:06, John Armstrong wrote:
> On 27/12/2023 18:47, Certes wrote:
>> The driver was not harmed but the cab certainly was.
>>
>> <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/uk-weather-christmas-travellers-warned-of-storm-gerrit-hazards>
>
> "South of Dundee" is the Firth of Tay, which contains very few trees.
> Further checking produced this report. .
>
> https://news.stv.tv/north/front-of-train-destroyed-following-shocking-crash-with-fallen-tree
>
> Further further checking on the website of the local paper indicates the
> crash occurred "between Barry Links and Dundee". Barry is about 10 miles
> east of Dundee.

Thank you. The exact location wasn't revealed in initial reports, which
claimed it was a Dundee-Glasgow service. Other reports say the accident
occurred at Broughty Ferry (consistent with your statement above),
whilst still claiming it was a Dundee-Glasgow train.

Tentsmuir Forest lies south of Dundee and has some lovely trees, but no
railway.

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 11:22:09 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
wrote:

>On 28/12/2023 10:57, Tweed wrote:
>> Would a follow on order for the class 810 being constructed for the MML be
>> an idea? Can use the OHLE where available, as enough Diesel grunt
>> otherwise, and allegedly will have more comfortable seats.
>
>It's money. The Scottish Government have had a railway spending frenzy
>over the last 10 years, they are finally realising it cannot go on. I
>cannot see them buying new stock - even 5 years ago they took the
>cheaper option by refurbing the HSTs.

Are the HSTs owned by SG? I assumed they were leased.

>A bi mode /diesel and electric would be the preferred option, wires are
>up to Stirling now, Perth is planned, but I think that will go on the
>backburner, the Scot. Govmt are more focused on central belt commuting,
>thats where the bulk of journeys are.
>For a cheaper, easy solution, they could lease the 68's and stock, this
>will be cheaper than new stock, and the 40 miles of running diesel under
>the wires isnt too bad in a 100 mile+ journey.
>The HST cost (if withdrawn) will have to be written off, putting more
>pressure on spending plans.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 11:22:09 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 28/12/2023 10:57, Tweed wrote:
>>> Would a follow on order for the class 810 being constructed for the MML be
>>> an idea? Can use the OHLE where available, as enough Diesel grunt
>>> otherwise, and allegedly will have more comfortable seats.
>>
>> It's money. The Scottish Government have had a railway spending frenzy
>> over the last 10 years, they are finally realising it cannot go on. I
>> cannot see them buying new stock - even 5 years ago they took the
>> cheaper option by refurbing the HSTs.
>
> Are the HSTs owned by SG? I assumed they were leased.

You are correct: they're owned by Angel, but the lease is guaranteed until,
I think, 2030. That's how the refurbishment was funded. So ScotRail may
have to keep paying for them till then, even if it stops using them
earlier.

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 11:15:51 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 10:19:46 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 28/12/2023 09:25, Scott wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 08:55:22 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 27/12/2023 18:47, Certes wrote:
>>>>>> The driver was not harmed but the cab certainly was.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/uk-weather-christmas-travellers-warned-of-storm-gerrit-hazards>
>>>>>
>>>>> Another nail in the HSTs coffin. They'll be withdrawn sooner now. The
>>>>> Scottish Drivers came to an agreement last year to continue using them,
>>>>> following the deaths after hitting the landslide near Stonehaven , now
>>>>> showing this damage, they will want them withdrawn quicker.
>>>>
>>>> Would a different train type have fared any better?
>>>
>>> Yes, its the fibreglass that makes it nowhere near as crash compliant as
>>> modern vehicles.The pictures show, really well, the fibreglass panels in
>>> the top left corner have totally shattered.
>>> Compare a Ford Cortina from 1976 with a Ford Focus of today, you'd be
>>> lucky to get away without major injuries in a big crash in the Cortina,
>>> the same crash in the Focus, and people walk away with a little
>>> stiffness. Or, with the HST, a Reliant Robin maybe a better comparison
>>> of frontal damage.
>>> Decent pics below linked:
>>> <https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/dundee/4851471/broughty-ferry-train-tree-storm-gerrit/>
>>>
>>> <https://news.stv.tv/north/front-of-train-destroyed-following-shocking-crash-with-fallen-tree>
>>
>> Thanks for clarifying. I think you are right about withdrawal. Like
>> the Routemaster bus, they do not enjoy the same loyal following as
>> they do in the south. Also, I understand fuel consumption is a major
>> concern with ScotRail preferring to substitute Class 158s (or is it
>> 170s?). What can we have instead given I assume procurement of new
>> diesel trains is out the the question?
>
>New DMUs are being bought in England and Wales, plus there are several
>bimode options.

England and Wales don't have to contend with the same coalition
partners as the present SNP led government has.

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 11:35:11 +0000, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:

>On 28/12/2023 10:06, John Armstrong wrote:
>> On 27/12/2023 18:47, Certes wrote:
>>> The driver was not harmed but the cab certainly was.
>>>
>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/uk-weather-christmas-travellers-warned-of-storm-gerrit-hazards>
>>
>> "South of Dundee" is the Firth of Tay, which contains very few trees.
>> Further checking produced this report. .
>>
>> https://news.stv.tv/north/front-of-train-destroyed-following-shocking-crash-with-fallen-tree
>>
>> Further further checking on the website of the local paper indicates the
>> crash occurred "between Barry Links and Dundee". Barry is about 10 miles
>> east of Dundee.
>
>Thank you. The exact location wasn't revealed in initial reports, which
>claimed it was a Dundee-Glasgow service. Other reports say the accident
>occurred at Broughty Ferry (consistent with your statement above),
>whilst still claiming it was a Dundee-Glasgow train.
>
>Tentsmuir Forest lies south of Dundee and has some lovely trees, but no
>railway.

But it does have a naturist beach I believe :-)

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 11:15:51 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 10:19:46 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 28/12/2023 09:25, Scott wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 08:55:22 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 27/12/2023 18:47, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>> The driver was not harmed but the cab certainly was.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/uk-weather-christmas-travellers-warned-of-storm-gerrit-hazards>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another nail in the HSTs coffin. They'll be withdrawn sooner now. The
>>>>>> Scottish Drivers came to an agreement last year to continue using them,
>>>>>> following the deaths after hitting the landslide near Stonehaven , now
>>>>>> showing this damage, they will want them withdrawn quicker.
>>>>>
>>>>> Would a different train type have fared any better?
>>>>
>>>> Yes, its the fibreglass that makes it nowhere near as crash compliant as
>>>> modern vehicles.The pictures show, really well, the fibreglass panels in
>>>> the top left corner have totally shattered.
>>>> Compare a Ford Cortina from 1976 with a Ford Focus of today, you'd be
>>>> lucky to get away without major injuries in a big crash in the Cortina,
>>>> the same crash in the Focus, and people walk away with a little
>>>> stiffness. Or, with the HST, a Reliant Robin maybe a better comparison
>>>> of frontal damage.
>>>> Decent pics below linked:
>>>> <https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/dundee/4851471/broughty-ferry-train-tree-storm-gerrit/>
>>>>
>>>> <https://news.stv.tv/north/front-of-train-destroyed-following-shocking-crash-with-fallen-tree>
>>>
>>> Thanks for clarifying. I think you are right about withdrawal. Like
>>> the Routemaster bus, they do not enjoy the same loyal following as
>>> they do in the south. Also, I understand fuel consumption is a major
>>> concern with ScotRail preferring to substitute Class 158s (or is it
>>> 170s?). What can we have instead given I assume procurement of new
>>> diesel trains is out the the question?
>>
>> New DMUs are being bought in England and Wales, plus there are several
>> bimode options.
>
> England and Wales don't have to contend with the same coalition
> partners as the present SNP led government has.
>

I suppose secondhand 175s/180s or class 67/68 with Mk 4/5a might be the
best option then. They're probably cleaner, more economic and safer the the
much older HSTs (albeit with newer engines).

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 12:49:34 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 11:15:51 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 10:19:46 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 28/12/2023 09:25, Scott wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 08:55:22 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 27/12/2023 18:47, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>>> The driver was not harmed but the cab certainly was.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/uk-weather-christmas-travellers-warned-of-storm-gerrit-hazards>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another nail in the HSTs coffin. They'll be withdrawn sooner now. The
>>>>>>> Scottish Drivers came to an agreement last year to continue using them,
>>>>>>> following the deaths after hitting the landslide near Stonehaven , now
>>>>>>> showing this damage, they will want them withdrawn quicker.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Would a different train type have fared any better?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, its the fibreglass that makes it nowhere near as crash compliant as
>>>>> modern vehicles.The pictures show, really well, the fibreglass panels in
>>>>> the top left corner have totally shattered.
>>>>> Compare a Ford Cortina from 1976 with a Ford Focus of today, you'd be
>>>>> lucky to get away without major injuries in a big crash in the Cortina,
>>>>> the same crash in the Focus, and people walk away with a little
>>>>> stiffness. Or, with the HST, a Reliant Robin maybe a better comparison
>>>>> of frontal damage.
>>>>> Decent pics below linked:
>>>>> <https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/dundee/4851471/broughty-ferry-train-tree-storm-gerrit/>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://news.stv.tv/north/front-of-train-destroyed-following-shocking-crash-with-fallen-tree>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for clarifying. I think you are right about withdrawal. Like
>>>> the Routemaster bus, they do not enjoy the same loyal following as
>>>> they do in the south. Also, I understand fuel consumption is a major
>>>> concern with ScotRail preferring to substitute Class 158s (or is it
>>>> 170s?). What can we have instead given I assume procurement of new
>>>> diesel trains is out the the question?
>>>
>>> New DMUs are being bought in England and Wales, plus there are several
>>> bimode options.
>>
>> England and Wales don't have to contend with the same coalition
>> partners as the present SNP led government has.
>>
>I suppose secondhand 175s/180s or class 67/68 with Mk 4/5a might be the
>best option then. They're probably cleaner, more economic and safer the the
>much older HSTs (albeit with newer engines).

Could they not use the existing HST carriages they have refurbished?
At least this would distract the public away from what has taken
place.

There was a picture on the BBC Scotland news last night which I think
had another train stopped in a station with a smashed windscreen though
not as bad as that.

On 28/12/2023 12:54, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 12:49:34 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 11:15:51 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 10:19:46 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 28/12/2023 09:25, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 08:55:22 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 27/12/2023 18:47, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The driver was not harmed but the cab certainly was.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/uk-weather-christmas-travellers-warned-of-storm-gerrit-hazards>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Another nail in the HSTs coffin. They'll be withdrawn sooner now. The
>>>>>>>> Scottish Drivers came to an agreement last year to continue using them,
>>>>>>>> following the deaths after hitting the landslide near Stonehaven , now
>>>>>>>> showing this damage, they will want them withdrawn quicker.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would a different train type have fared any better?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, its the fibreglass that makes it nowhere near as crash compliant as
>>>>>> modern vehicles.The pictures show, really well, the fibreglass panels in
>>>>>> the top left corner have totally shattered.
>>>>>> Compare a Ford Cortina from 1976 with a Ford Focus of today, you'd be
>>>>>> lucky to get away without major injuries in a big crash in the Cortina,
>>>>>> the same crash in the Focus, and people walk away with a little
>>>>>> stiffness. Or, with the HST, a Reliant Robin maybe a better comparison
>>>>>> of frontal damage.
>>>>>> Decent pics below linked:
>>>>>> <https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/dundee/4851471/broughty-ferry-train-tree-storm-gerrit/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://news.stv.tv/north/front-of-train-destroyed-following-shocking-crash-with-fallen-tree>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for clarifying. I think you are right about withdrawal. Like
>>>>> the Routemaster bus, they do not enjoy the same loyal following as
>>>>> they do in the south. Also, I understand fuel consumption is a major
>>>>> concern with ScotRail preferring to substitute Class 158s (or is it
>>>>> 170s?). What can we have instead given I assume procurement of new
>>>>> diesel trains is out the the question?
>>>>
>>>> New DMUs are being bought in England and Wales, plus there are several
>>>> bimode options.
>>>
>>> England and Wales don't have to contend with the same coalition
>>> partners as the present SNP led government has.
>>>
>> I suppose secondhand 175s/180s or class 67/68 with Mk 4/5a might be the
>> best option then. They're probably cleaner, more economic and safer the the
>> much older HSTs (albeit with newer engines).
>
> Could they not use the existing HST carriages they have refurbished?
> At least this would distract the public away from what has taken
> place.

The HST Mk III use a different ETH system so probably not.

On 28/12/2023 12:23, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 11:35:11 +0000, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>
>> On 28/12/2023 10:06, John Armstrong wrote:
>>> On 27/12/2023 18:47, Certes wrote:
>>>> The driver was not harmed but the cab certainly was.
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/uk-weather-christmas-travellers-warned-of-storm-gerrit-hazards>
>>>
>>> "South of Dundee" is the Firth of Tay, which contains very few trees.
>>> Further checking produced this report. .
>>>
>>> https://news.stv.tv/north/front-of-train-destroyed-following-shocking-crash-with-fallen-tree
>>>
>>> Further further checking on the website of the local paper indicates the
>>> crash occurred "between Barry Links and Dundee". Barry is about 10 miles
>>> east of Dundee.
>>
>> Thank you. The exact location wasn't revealed in initial reports, which
>> claimed it was a Dundee-Glasgow service. Other reports say the accident
>> occurred at Broughty Ferry (consistent with your statement above),
>> whilst still claiming it was a Dundee-Glasgow train.
>>
>> Tentsmuir Forest lies south of Dundee and has some lovely trees, but no
>> railway.
>
> But it does have a naturist beach I believe :-)

Bit parky for that today .....

--
Colin