Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
and lots of domestic[1] cancellations coming up later today and tomorrow
due to staff declining to work overtime (not related to strike action).

[1] Special mentions for Northern and Thameslink.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 09:14:09 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>and lots of domestic[1] cancellations coming up later today and tomorrow
>due to staff declining to work overtime (not related to strike action).
>
>[1] Special mentions for Northern and Thameslink.

Seems odd not to use Ebbsfleet.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),

Eurostar is hoping to re-start services from 10:30. I don't think it would
be feasible to divert to Ebbsfleet or Ashford, particularly as the Javelin
services are also suspended.

This follows the disruption on the 21st, when a lightning strike by French
Eurotunnel staff suspended all traffic for most of the day (my train was
the last Brussels-bound service of the day to run). My return train on
Thursday was also delayed by more than 90 minutes due to the
non-availability of the planned e300 set, which had to be substituted at
the last minute by an e320 set, which was presumably not ready for service.

Our delated train arrived at St Pancras just before a scheduled Paris
train, and, most unusually, shared one of the island platforms. Our
train's doors weren't released until the other train had stopped, so both
trainloads were simultaneously heading for the same exit — and the moving
walkway ramp wasn't (the down escalator from the Lille e* departure lounge
had also been broken). So the slow moving crowd of over a thousand arriving
passengers backed up the long island platform for quite a few minutes.

Codger <codger524@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 09:14:09 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>> and lots of domestic[1] cancellations coming up later today and tomorrow
>> due to staff declining to work overtime (not related to strike action).
>>
>> [1] Special mentions for Northern and Thameslink.
>
> Seems odd not to use Ebbsfleet.
>

Why? The Javelins are also cancelled, and there are no international
facilities there.

On 30/12/2023 09:41, Codger wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 09:14:09 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>> and lots of domestic[1] cancellations coming up later today and tomorrow
>> due to staff declining to work overtime (not related to strike action).
>>
>> [1] Special mentions for Northern and Thameslink.
>
> Seems odd not to use Ebbsfleet.

Or even Stratford International or is that completely moribund?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <0bpvoih6k23n1pl19s2r4068j2u1f93a74@4ax.com>, at 09:41:41 on
Sat, 30 Dec 2023, Codger <codger524@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 09:14:09 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>>be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>>and lots of domestic[1] cancellations coming up later today and tomorrow
>>due to staff declining to work overtime (not related to strike action).
>>
>>[1] Special mentions for Northern and Thameslink.
>
>Seems odd not to use Ebbsfleet.

They'd probably claim lack of security/immigration facilities, so you'd
have to run coaches to and from St Pancras, and there may well be a
shortage of capacity. Some of the trains will be trapped at the London
end of the line, too.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 09:45:44 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>
>Eurostar is hoping to re-start services from 10:30. I don't think it would
>be feasible to divert to Ebbsfleet or Ashford, particularly as the Javelin
>services are also suspended.

Why not? Whats the point of those disused stations if not for emergency
termini? Obviously its not practical to bus thousands from St P out there but
they could quite easily terminate continental trains at ebsfleet and bus them
to the nearest NR station.

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 09:48:22 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Codger <codger524@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 09:14:09 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>>> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>>> and lots of domestic[1] cancellations coming up later today and tomorrow
>>> due to staff declining to work overtime (not related to strike action).
>>>
>>> [1] Special mentions for Northern and Thameslink.
>>
>> Seems odd not to use Ebbsfleet.
>>
>
>Why? The Javelins are also cancelled, and there are no international
>facilities there.

How long would it take to bus some border guards out there? Where there's a
will... Sadly these days there isn't one, far more a case of "Oh well, its
fucked, you're on your own [shoulder shrug]".

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 09:52:39 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 30/12/2023 09:41, Codger wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 09:14:09 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>>> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>>> and lots of domestic[1] cancellations coming up later today and tomorrow
>>> due to staff declining to work overtime (not related to strike action).
>>>
>>> [1] Special mentions for Northern and Thameslink.
>>
>> Seems odd not to use Ebbsfleet.
>
>Or even Stratford International or is that completely moribund?

Wrong side of the flooded tunnel.

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 09:52:39 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 30/12/2023 09:41, Codger wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 09:14:09 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>>> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>>> and lots of domestic[1] cancellations coming up later today and tomorrow
>>> due to staff declining to work overtime (not related to strike action).
>>>
>>> [1] Special mentions for Northern and Thameslink.
>>
>> Seems odd not to use Ebbsfleet.
>
>Or even Stratford International or is that completely moribund?

How would that help? St Pancras was working.

In message <umopul$186hj$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:05 on Sat, 30 Dec
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>>>> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>>>> and lots of domestic[1] cancellations coming up later today and tomorrow
>>>> due to staff declining to work overtime (not related to strike action).
>>>>
>>>> [1] Special mentions for Northern and Thameslink.
>>>
>>> Seems odd not to use Ebbsfleet.
>>
>>Or even Stratford International or is that completely moribund?
>
>Wrong side of the flooded tunnel.

And it's not fitted out for passengers, either at track level or
elsewhere. At least Ebbsfleet probably still has both (even if
mothballed at the moment).
--
Roland Perry

On 30/12/2023 10:04, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 09:52:39 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 30/12/2023 09:41, Codger wrote:
>>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 09:14:09 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>>>> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>>>> and lots of domestic[1] cancellations coming up later today and tomorrow
>>>> due to staff declining to work overtime (not related to strike action).
>>>>
>>>> [1] Special mentions for Northern and Thameslink.
>>>
>>> Seems odd not to use Ebbsfleet.
>>
>> Or even Stratford International or is that completely moribund?
>
> Wrong side of the flooded tunnel.
>
>

Sorry, of course it is.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 30/12/2023 10:19, Recliner wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 09:52:39 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 30/12/2023 09:41, Codger wrote:
>>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 09:14:09 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>>>> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>>>> and lots of domestic[1] cancellations coming up later today and tomorrow
>>>> due to staff declining to work overtime (not related to strike action).
>>>>
>>>> [1] Special mentions for Northern and Thameslink.
>>>
>>> Seems odd not to use Ebbsfleet.
>>
>> Or even Stratford International or is that completely moribund?
>
> How would that help? St Pancras was working.

Misapplication of geography.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Codger <codger524@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 09:14:09 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>>> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>>> and lots of domestic[1] cancellations coming up later today and tomorrow
>>> due to staff declining to work overtime (not related to strike action).
>>>
>>> [1] Special mentions for Northern and Thameslink.
>>
>> Seems odd not to use Ebbsfleet.
>>
>
> Why? The Javelins are also cancelled, and there are no international
> facilities there.
>
>

As far as I can tell from my two recent visits there, the Eurostar
equipment at Ebbsfleet is all still present, but presumably unused for
almost four years, so not necessarily in working order.

It'd be awkward to get passengers there, neither Swanscombe nor Northfleet
have particularly good facilities for loading coaches, so probably road
transport from Gravesend; the limited facilities would probably take at
least a couple of hours to process one trainload of passengers, who would
have to wait on the train while the rest were processed, and then
presumably change at Lille for Brussels?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <cFRjN.113992$c68d.43714@fx15.ams1>, at 09:45:44 on Sat, 30
Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>
>Eurostar is hoping to re-start services from 10:30.

It's now gone noon and nothing is moving yet. The Javelin isn't even
showing any planned services after 08:08

>I don't think it would be feasible to divert to Ebbsfleet or Ashford,
>particularly as the Javelin services are also suspended.

What's the reason for linking those two services?
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:17:00 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Codger <codger524@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 09:14:09 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>>>> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>>>> and lots of domestic[1] cancellations coming up later today and tomorrow
>>>> due to staff declining to work overtime (not related to strike action).
>>>>
>>>> [1] Special mentions for Northern and Thameslink.
>>>
>>> Seems odd not to use Ebbsfleet.
>>>
>>
>> Why? The Javelins are also cancelled, and there are no international
>> facilities there.
>>
>>
>
>As far as I can tell from my two recent visits there, the Eurostar
>equipment at Ebbsfleet is all still present, but presumably unused for
>almost four years, so not necessarily in working order.

The passport scanners probably don't work.

>
>It'd be awkward to get passengers there, neither Swanscombe nor Northfleet
>have particularly good facilities for loading coaches, so probably road
>transport from Gravesend; the limited facilities would probably take at
>least a couple of hours to process one trainload of passengers, who would
>have to wait on the train while the rest were processed, and then
>presumably change at Lille for Brussels?

I doubt that Eurostar has the UK staff or arrangements to set up something like that.

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:10:06 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <cFRjN.113992$c68d.43714@fx15.ams1>, at 09:45:44 on Sat, 30
>Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>>> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>>
>>Eurostar is hoping to re-start services from 10:30.
>
>It's now gone noon and nothing is moving yet.

Eurostar is now (optimistically?) showing services restarting at 1631.

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:03:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <umopul$186hj$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:05 on Sat, 30 Dec
>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>>>>> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>>>>> and lots of domestic[1] cancellations coming up later today and tomorrow
>>>>> due to staff declining to work overtime (not related to strike action).
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] Special mentions for Northern and Thameslink.
>>>>
>>>> Seems odd not to use Ebbsfleet.
>>>
>>>Or even Stratford International or is that completely moribund?
>>
>>Wrong side of the flooded tunnel.
>
>And it's not fitted out for passengers, either at track level or
>elsewhere. At least Ebbsfleet probably still has both (even if
>mothballed at the moment).

I suspect the equipment couldn't just be turned on and work. For example, the passport scanners probably are out of date
and unusable.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:10:06 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <cFRjN.113992$c68d.43714@fx15.ams1>, at 09:45:44 on Sat, 30
>> Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>>>> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>>>
>>> Eurostar is hoping to re-start services from 10:30.
>>
>> It's now gone noon and nothing is moving yet.
>
> Eurostar is now (optimistically?) showing services restarting at 1631.
>

It will be interesting to see what type of flooding this is, at first I
thought it was floodwater over
the track and of course it still could be. There is now video on news feeds
which show water cascading from a pipe bend where it penetrates a wall in
what appears to be a permanently installed pipe.
Case of pipe joint failure caused by excess volume and pressure behind the
wall or some unnoticed corrosion giving way. perhaps? So is that pipe part
of the drainage system designed to prevent flooding and has failed on one
of the most awkward days it could after being stressed by the recent heavy
rainfall.
If it is just that pipe it is probably relatively easy to deal with.

GH

On 30/12/2023 12:56, Marland wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:10:06 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <cFRjN.113992$c68d.43714@fx15.ams1>, at 09:45:44 on Sat, 30
>>> Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>>>>> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>>>>
>>>> Eurostar is hoping to re-start services from 10:30.
>>>
>>> It's now gone noon and nothing is moving yet.
>>
>> Eurostar is now (optimistically?) showing services restarting at 1631.
>>
>
> It will be interesting to see what type of flooding this is, at first I
> thought it was floodwater over
> the track and of course it still could be. There is now video on news feeds
> which show water cascading from a pipe bend where it penetrates a wall in
> what appears to be a permanently installed pipe.
> Case of pipe joint failure caused by excess volume and pressure behind the
> wall or some unnoticed corrosion giving way. perhaps? So is that pipe part
> of the drainage system designed to prevent flooding and has failed on one
> of the most awkward days it could after being stressed by the recent heavy
> rainfall.
> If it is just that pipe it is probably relatively easy to deal with.

Then they've got to pump the water out and probably check the train
detection systems.

On 30 Dec 2023 12:56:19 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:10:06 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <cFRjN.113992$c68d.43714@fx15.ams1>, at 09:45:44 on Sat, 30
>>> Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>>>>> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>>>>
>>>> Eurostar is hoping to re-start services from 10:30.
>>>
>>> It's now gone noon and nothing is moving yet.
>>
>> Eurostar is now (optimistically?) showing services restarting at 1631.
>>
>
>It will be interesting to see what type of flooding this is, at first I
>thought it was floodwater over
>the track and of course it still could be. There is now video on news feeds
> which show water cascading from a pipe bend where it penetrates a wall in
>what appears to be a permanently installed pipe.
>Case of pipe joint failure caused by excess volume and pressure behind the
>wall or some unnoticed corrosion giving way. perhaps? So is that pipe part
>of the drainage system designed to prevent flooding and has failed on one
>of the most awkward days it could after being stressed by the recent heavy
>rainfall.

Yes, that's my assumption.

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 13:22:56 +0000, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:

>On 30/12/2023 12:56, Marland wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:10:06 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <cFRjN.113992$c68d.43714@fx15.ams1>, at 09:45:44 on Sat, 30
>>>> Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>>>>>> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>>>>>
>>>>> Eurostar is hoping to re-start services from 10:30.
>>>>
>>>> It's now gone noon and nothing is moving yet.
>>>
>>> Eurostar is now (optimistically?) showing services restarting at 1631.
>>>
>>
>> It will be interesting to see what type of flooding this is, at first I
>> thought it was floodwater over
>> the track and of course it still could be. There is now video on news feeds
>> which show water cascading from a pipe bend where it penetrates a wall in
>> what appears to be a permanently installed pipe.
>> Case of pipe joint failure caused by excess volume and pressure behind the
>> wall or some unnoticed corrosion giving way. perhaps? So is that pipe part
>> of the drainage system designed to prevent flooding and has failed on one
>> of the most awkward days it could after being stressed by the recent heavy
>> rainfall.
>> If it is just that pipe it is probably relatively easy to deal with.
>
>Then they've got to pump the water out and probably check the train
>detection systems.
>

Hopefully no signalling or power cables have been damaged.

I see that Eurostar has now given up hope of running any trains today.

On 30/12/2023 12:17, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> As far as I can tell from my two recent visits there, the Eurostar
> equipment at Ebbsfleet is all still present, but presumably unused for
> almost four years, so not necessarily in working order.

Makes you wonder if they have any resilience planning.

Some years back when there was the tunnel collapse on the ECML, it was
found they did not have 'Euston' on the destination boards at Edinburgh
Waverley.

Minor thing but should have been picked up if there had been any planning.

On 30/12/2023 14:25, JMB99 wrote:
> On 30/12/2023 12:17, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> As far as I can tell from my two recent visits there, the Eurostar
>> equipment at Ebbsfleet is all still present, but presumably unused for
>> almost four years, so not necessarily in working order.
>
>
> Makes you wonder if they have any resilience planning.
>
> Some years back when there was the tunnel collapse on the ECML, it was
> found they did not have 'Euston' on the destination boards at Edinburgh
> Waverley.
>
> Minor thing but should have been picked up if there had been any planning.
>
>
>

From the South-Eastern video it appears to be twin single bore tunnels,
are both flooded?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 30/12/2023 12:56, Marland wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:10:06 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <cFRjN.113992$c68d.43714@fx15.ams1>, at 09:45:44 on Sat, 30
>>> Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Flooding in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames has caused all E* trains to
>>>>> be cancelled (with no backup plan to use Ebbsfleet or Ashford it seems),
>>>>
>>>> Eurostar is hoping to re-start services from 10:30.
>>>
>>> It's now gone noon and nothing is moving yet.
>>
>> Eurostar is now (optimistically?) showing services restarting at 1631.
>>
>
> It will be interesting to see what type of flooding this is, at first I
> thought it was floodwater over
> the track and of course it still could be. There is now video on news feeds
> which show water cascading from a pipe bend where it penetrates a wall in
> what appears to be a permanently installed pipe.
> Case of pipe joint failure caused by excess volume and pressure behind the
> wall or some unnoticed corrosion giving way. perhaps? So is that pipe part
> of the drainage system designed to prevent flooding and has failed on one
> of the most awkward days it could after being stressed by the recent heavy
> rainfall.
> If it is just that pipe it is probably relatively easy to deal with.
>
> GH

Yeah, bit o' gaffer tape, all sorted

--
Colin