"Theo" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:J9j*cE8kz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 12/07/2023 20:41, Robin wrote:
>> > The plan is by end-2025 there'll be no analogue, ISDN, SMPF, MPF or
>> > Narrowband. All gone.
>>
>>
>>
>> I suspect that is optimistic (or should I say pessimistic?).
>>
>> I was told by a BT engineer that they will doing the customers with a
>> poor broadband connection first - presumably mainly rural.

How will they cater for houses in very small communities (eg five houses and
two farms) which are about 2 miles by road (maybe 1.5 in a straight line)
from a BTOR cabinet. What bitrate does VOIP need? Will it work over a 500
kb/sec (down) / 50 kb/sec (up) ADSL connection? Will they run fibre even to
very small isolated communities, or will they shorten the route of the
existing copper to give FTTC? The house I'm thinking of (my parents' holiday
cottage) has a phone line which goes all the way back to the exchange, about
6 miles away; for some reason it passes fairly close to the FTTC cabinets
(covered in "Get your fibre now" adverts) but doesn't actually connect in
there, either for ADSL or VDSL. Given the 6-mile cable run to the exchange,
internet speeds are dire.

> A lot of people confuse the switch-off of analogue voice with the
> switch-off
> of copper broadband (ADSL and FTTC). The target for analogue voice
> switchoff is end 2025 (moving everyone onto VOIP products they're calling
> 'digital voice' running over their existing DSL), but FTTC in particular
> will be with us for a while longer. There is no target to get everyone on
> FTTP by end 2025.

Ah, so those people with good FTTC/VDSL won't be *required* to change to
FTTP (unless they want the faster speed). I presume the VOIP-analogue
converter just plugs into an Ethernet port on your router - if you want to
carry on using your cordless DECT phone rather than getting an all-digital
phone system instead.

The lack of force-feeding fibre is good news for us. If BTOR had insisted on
replacing our copper drop cable and wiring from there to the various
sockets, it would have been a logistical problem because the copper cable
reaches the house in a place that would need crawl boards over a roof to
reach, and they'd probably then bring the fibre in through a window frame at
a point in the living room where there is no mains power for the fibre-to-IP
interface (*); getting Ethernet from there to the route would be OK because
modern Cat7 is flat so it can tuck under the edge of carpets around the room
to the point where we have the router. Or else they'd bring it in via the
front door (where there is mains) but routing Cat 7 would be a real problem
because there is a room in between which has wall-to-wall hardwood flooring,
so no convenient carpet to hide the cable between carpet and skirting board.

(*) Lift carpet, chase out a channel in the concrete floor for an armoured
mains cable spur from a socket on the other side of a doorway, backfill,
install new mains socket. A faff, but not impossible.

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Theo" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:J9j*cE8kz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> > MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> >> On 12/07/2023 20:41, Robin wrote:
> >> > The plan is by end-2025 there'll be no analogue, ISDN, SMPF, MPF or
> >> > Narrowband. All gone.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I suspect that is optimistic (or should I say pessimistic?).
> >>
> >> I was told by a BT engineer that they will doing the customers with a
> >> poor broadband connection first - presumably mainly rural.
>
> How will they cater for houses in very small communities (eg five houses and
> two farms) which are about 2 miles by road (maybe 1.5 in a straight line)
> from a BTOR cabinet.

The fibre installation is separate from the cabinet location, so there's no
dependency on going back there. They do seem to be prioritising locations
with worse service (possibly because they're poled and so cheaper to do).

> What bitrate does VOIP need? Will it work over a 500 kb/sec (down) / 50
> kb/sec (up) ADSL connection?

Regular VOIP would be about 80kbps each way. It's possible downgrading the
codec would get it below 50. G.729 is 8kbps, for example.

> Will they run fibre even to very small isolated communities, or will they
> shorten the route of the existing copper to give FTTC?

It's fibre or nothing at the moment. Many of the engineers doing fibre
installs are new and aren't trained on copper. Fibre is much better over
longer distances than FTTC. Also long copper lines are unreliable, so
installing FTTP saves on maintenance in the long run.

> The house I'm thinking of (my parents' holiday cottage) has a phone line
> which goes all the way back to the exchange, about 6 miles away; for some
> reason it passes fairly close to the FTTC cabinets (covered in "Get your
> fibre now" adverts) but doesn't actually connect in there, either for ADSL
> or VDSL. Given the 6-mile cable run to the exchange, internet speeds are
> dire.

If the cabinet is nearby, it's possible that could be a fibre distribution
point, since there's already a backhaul there. But it doesn't have to be.

> Ah, so those people with good FTTC/VDSL won't be *required* to change to
> FTTP (unless they want the faster speed). I presume the VOIP-analogue
> converter just plugs into an Ethernet port on your router - if you want to
> carry on using your cordless DECT phone rather than getting an all-digital
> phone system instead.

The VOIP converter is inside the router, there's a phone socket on the back.
If you want to go to a third party VOIP service than that uses a separate
box.

> The lack of force-feeding fibre is good news for us. If BTOR had insisted on
> replacing our copper drop cable and wiring from there to the various
> sockets, it would have been a logistical problem because the copper cable
> reaches the house in a place that would need crawl boards over a roof to
> reach, and they'd probably then bring the fibre in through a window frame at
> a point in the living room where there is no mains power for the fibre-to-IP
> interface (*); getting Ethernet from there to the route would be OK because
> modern Cat7 is flat so it can tuck under the edge of carpets around the room
> to the point where we have the router. Or else they'd bring it in via the
> front door (where there is mains) but routing Cat 7 would be a real problem
> because there is a room in between which has wall-to-wall hardwood flooring,
> so no convenient carpet to hide the cable between carpet and skirting board.

Fibre installs don't need to follow the same routing as copper. Typically a
cable from the pole will run down the wall outside to a termination point at
ground level, then a fibre through the wall to a location for the ONT
(optical to ethernet converter box), which needs power. When they come you
can discuss the best location for it, but it would be good to think about
that and provision power in advance (worst case, run a temporary extension
lead).

OR won't install to 'difficult' places, eg unboarded lofts. I suspect
dubious roofs are out too.

> (*) Lift carpet, chase out a channel in the concrete floor for an armoured
> mains cable spur from a socket on the other side of a doorway, backfill,
> install new mains socket. A faff, but not impossible.

It's going to have to happen at some point this decade, so best plan for it.
Although a temporary power supply would work for the install and then tidy
it up later.

Theo

In message <H9j*Jsalz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Thu, 13 Jul 2023
16:04:45, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
>J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
[]
>> (Will VoIP telephone provision cease to be per-minute [with allowances
>> or not]? Those who already have it, is it? Or only for calls to certain
>> destinations/types of number?)
>
>You can PAYG or take an allowance ('NNN minutes per month') or bundle
>('unlimited weekends'), it's up to you. Different providers have different

So, basically, much the same range of schemes as we now get with POTS. I
just wondered if they was any chance of them doing away with such
charging in much the same way as (I think) per-megabyte (or -gigabyte)
charging for broadband has (I think) disappeared (for fixed lines - I
think several mobile operators still use it).
[]
>Before we got bogged down in the weeds of Openreach, I just wanted to make
>it clear that the copper from the cabinet is not going anytime soon, for a
>lot of people. Many seem to misunderstand about this.
>
>Theo

Thanks for the clarification. So, basically, what's going - first, at
least - is the old-fashioned switching - quaint concepts like "on hook",
exchange power, and so on.

I presume pulse dialling support will go at the same time.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

You need 10 wise men to get back a rock thrown in a lake by an idiot
- Romanian proverb (tweeted by Ovidiu S @plount_os 2023-2-6)

In message <H9j*byalz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Thu, 13 Jul 2023
16:28:05, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
[]
>The VOIP converter is inside the router, there's a phone socket on the back.
>If you want to go to a third party VOIP service than that uses a separate
>box.
[]
On the back of my latest router from PlusNet (a "hub 2"), there's a
taped-over socket (it says on the tape "digital voice customers only");
I presume that's it. I've just had a look under the tape, and it looks
like a normal BT type telephone socket (i. e. it's a different connector
to the row of ethernet sockets).

(_Will_ it support pulse dialling? I'll be surprised. Though presumably
it _does_ supply the same sort of power the exchange currently does, for
corded 'phones with some electronics in. Though maybe not enough to ring
a mechanical bell.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

You need 10 wise men to get back a rock thrown in a lake by an idiot
- Romanian proverb (tweeted by Ovidiu S @plount_os 2023-2-6)

On 13/07/2023 22:34, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

> (_Will_ it support pulse dialling? I'll be surprised. Though presumably
> it _does_ supply the same sort of power the exchange currently does, for
> corded 'phones with some electronics in. Though maybe not enough to ring
> a mechanical bell.)
This claims to support using pulse and tone dial phones over VOIP
circuits. It might even work with OpenReach's version.

Reading the fine print it seems to only convert pulse dialling to tone
dialling, though.

https://www.vintagetelephony.co.uk/product/pulse-to-tone-converter-dial-a-tone-dialatone

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In message <khbaffFi60rU1@mid.individual.net> at Thu, 13 Jul 2023
23:00:13, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> writes
>On 13/07/2023 22:34, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>
>> (_Will_ it support pulse dialling? I'll be surprised. Though presumably
>> it _does_ supply the same sort of power the exchange currently does, for
>> corded 'phones with some electronics in. Though maybe not enough to ring
>> a mechanical bell.)
>This claims to support using pulse and tone dial phones over VOIP
>circuits. It might even work with OpenReach's version.
>
>Reading the fine print it seems to only convert pulse dialling to tone
>dialling, though.
>
>https://www.vintagetelephony.co.uk/product/pulse-to-tone-converter-dial-
>a-tone-dialatone
>
Ouch on price, but sounds like it'll work for those who really want it!
Presumably if it produces tones, that's going to be what the new routers
expect.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"You play the market?" "No, the ukelele. And I sing too"
- Tony Curtis/Marilyn Monroe in SLIH

On 13 Jul 2023 15:42:33 +0100 (BST), Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>In short, however Openreach call it, the copper between you and the cabinet
>will, for many people, still be carrying your broadband after the end of
>2025. It won't have a voice circuit on it, but it's not being withdrawn for
>data.

But only until that copper cable develops a fault perhaps?

If this happens in an area where FTTP is available, it must eventually
become standard practice to abandon the copper and tell the customer
that a change to fibre is the only option.

Rod.

Roderick Stewart wrote:

> Theo wrote:
>
>> the copper between you and the cabinet will, for many people, still
>> be carrying your broadband after the end of 2025.
>
> But only until that copper cable develops a fault perhaps?

Eh? if there's no FTTP, they'll have to fix the copper to keep FTTC
running, just like today.

> If this happens in an area where FTTP is available, it must eventually
> become standard practice to abandon the copper and tell the customer
> that a change to fibre is the only option.

Yes, once FTTP appears in an area, they should (and I think they will)
aggressively push people away from FTTC.

On 14/07/2023 08:52, Andy Burns wrote:
>
> Roderick Stewart wrote:
>
>> Theo wrote:
>>
>>> the copper between you and the cabinet will, for many people, still
>>> be carrying your broadband after the end of 2025.
>>
>> But only until that copper cable develops a fault perhaps?
>
> Eh? if there's no FTTP, they'll have to fix the copper to keep FTTC
> running, just like today.

They will, but there are fewer and fewer Openreach staff with the
experience and training to diagnose and fix copper/analogue faults.

New Openreach recruits are only being trained for 'fibre skills' AIUI

Get off FTTC as soon as you can (in other words as soon as FTTP is
available for your home)

Mark Carver wrote:

> there are fewer and fewer Openreach staff with the experience and
> training to diagnose and fix copper/analogue faults.

Yep, a schoolfriend of mine left at the end of the 5th form to work for
BT, he still works for them today up poles and down manholes. His patch
seem to keep extending and he's forever on standby ...

Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 13 Jul 2023 15:42:33 +0100 (BST), Theo
> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >In short, however Openreach call it, the copper between you and the cabinet
> >will, for many people, still be carrying your broadband after the end of
> >2025. It won't have a voice circuit on it, but it's not being withdrawn for
> >data.
>
> But only until that copper cable develops a fault perhaps?
>
> If this happens in an area where FTTP is available, it must eventually
> become standard practice to abandon the copper and tell the customer
> that a change to fibre is the only option.

Once an area is FTTPed, the copper will first go stop-sell (so no
new contracts can use copper but old ones can continue) and then stopped
completely.

This has happened in the areas which were in the initial batch of
total-FTTPing, eg Salisbury and Mildenhall. Other areas are at different
points along this journey.

What won't happen is piecemeal FTTP installation: if your copper line breaks
and there's no FTTP locally, they'll replace it with another copper line.
They won't run FTTP specially to your house, at least in most cases.
However new builds (>1 per site) are getting FTTP from the get-go, and they
are getting new FTTP plant.

Theo

J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> In message <H9j*byalz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Thu, 13 Jul 2023
> 16:28:05, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
> []
> >The VOIP converter is inside the router, there's a phone socket on the back.
> >If you want to go to a third party VOIP service than that uses a separate
> >box.
> []
> On the back of my latest router from PlusNet (a "hub 2"), there's a
> taped-over socket (it says on the tape "digital voice customers only");
> I presume that's it. I've just had a look under the tape, and it looks
> like a normal BT type telephone socket (i. e. it's a different connector
> to the row of ethernet sockets).

That's the one. If you have an old router without a phone socket your ISP
will send you a new one.

> (_Will_ it support pulse dialling? I'll be surprised. Though presumably
> it _does_ supply the same sort of power the exchange currently does, for
> corded 'phones with some electronics in. Though maybe not enough to ring
> a mechanical bell.)

Some ATA (standalone analogue to VOIP) boxes can support pulse dialling. As
to whether they do on your particular router depends on the specifics of the
implementation.

I don't think there's much beyond software needed to implement it, so it'll
probably be down to whatever the box manufacturer put in the firmware.

Theo

On 14/07/2023 11:19, Theo wrote:

> I don't think there's much beyond software needed to implement it, so it'll
> probably be down to whatever the box manufacturer put in the firmware.
>
The box I checked pretends at one end to be an old style pulse dial
exchange and at the other a standard tone dial handset. The main
problem, apparently, is fitting a capacitor big enough to trigger the
bell in the handset into the box.

If you can use a single ring unit, tone dial handset on your router,
you're good to go.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 14/07/2023 10:15, Andy Burns wrote:
> Mark Carver wrote:
>
>> there are fewer and fewer Openreach staff with the experience and
>> training to diagnose and fix copper/analogue faults.
>
> Yep, a schoolfriend of mine left at the end of the 5th form to work
> for BT, he still works for them today up poles and down manholes.  His
> patch seem to keep extending and he's forever on standby ...
If I'm still on FTTC in 2028, I might ping you for his contact details !

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 18:56:02 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

>In message <kh8711F2fghU1@mid.individual.net> at Wed, 12 Jul 2023
>18:42:59, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> writes
>>Theo wrote:
>>
>>> Once they have wired an exchange area for fibre, Openreach stop
>>>selling copper products:
>>
>>They're not going to sell copper voice lines (to new customers) after
>>this September.
>>
>Presumably they'll withdraw it from _existing_ customers not long after
>that.

Do you mean external lines just to the house with access problems or
the whole grid? Either way that will be years of work for Openreach.

On 14/07/2023 11:19, Theo wrote:
> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>> In message <H9j*byalz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Thu, 13 Jul 2023
>> 16:28:05, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
>> []
>>> The VOIP converter is inside the router, there's a phone socket on the back.
>>> If you want to go to a third party VOIP service than that uses a separate
>>> box.
>> []
>> On the back of my latest router from PlusNet (a "hub 2"), there's a
>> taped-over socket (it says on the tape "digital voice customers only");
>> I presume that's it. I've just had a look under the tape, and it looks
>> like a normal BT type telephone socket (i. e. it's a different connector
>> to the row of ethernet sockets).
>
> That's the one. If you have an old router without a phone socket your ISP
> will send you a new one.
>
>> (_Will_ it support pulse dialling? I'll be surprised. Though presumably
>> it _does_ supply the same sort of power the exchange currently does, for
>> corded 'phones with some electronics in. Though maybe not enough to ring
>> a mechanical bell.)
>
> Some ATA (standalone analogue to VOIP) boxes can support pulse dialling. As
> to whether they do on your particular router depends on the specifics of the
> implementation.
>
> I don't think there's much beyond software needed to implement it, so it'll
> probably be down to whatever the box manufacturer put in the firmware.
>

My first FTTP option - Hyperoptic - has just gone live so I've been
looking at their offers. I'm waiting for email support to answer my
questions about their routers as telephone support didn't have a clue
and the online router manuals don't even mention phones.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:

> J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> They're not going to sell copper voice lines (to new customers) after
>>> this September.
>>
>> Presumably they'll withdraw it from _existing_ customers not long after
>> that.
>
> Do you mean external lines just to the house with access problems or
> the whole grid? Either way that will be years of work for Openreach.

Within 2 years, if a house still has copper, it will *only* be for
broadband, any form of phoneline will be VoIP over the broadband one way
or another.

On 14/07/2023 13:58, Robin wrote:
> On 14/07/2023 11:19, Theo wrote:
>> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <H9j*byalz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Thu, 13 Jul 2023
>>> 16:28:05, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
>>> []
>>>> The VOIP converter is inside the router, there's a phone socket on
>>>> the back.
>>>> If you want to go to a third party VOIP service than that uses a
>>>> separate
>>>> box.
>>> []
>>> On the back of my latest router from PlusNet (a "hub 2"), there's a
>>> taped-over socket (it says on the tape "digital voice customers only");
>>> I presume that's it. I've just had a look under the tape, and it looks
>>> like a normal BT type telephone socket (i. e. it's a different
>>> connector
>>> to the row of ethernet sockets).
>>
>> That's the one.  If you have an old router without a phone socket
>> your ISP
>> will send you a new one.
>>
>>> (_Will_ it support pulse dialling? I'll be surprised. Though presumably
>>> it _does_ supply the same sort of power the exchange currently does,
>>> for
>>> corded 'phones with some electronics in. Though maybe not enough to
>>> ring
>>> a mechanical bell.)
>>
>> Some ATA (standalone analogue to VOIP) boxes can support pulse
>> dialling.  As
>> to whether they do on your particular router depends on the specifics
>> of the
>> implementation.
>>
>> I don't think there's much beyond software needed to implement it, so
>> it'll
>> probably be down to whatever the box manufacturer put in the firmware.
>>
>
> My first FTTP option - Hyperoptic - has just gone live so I've been
> looking at their offers. I'm waiting for email support to answer my
> questions about their routers as telephone support didn't have a clue
> and the online router manuals don't even mention phones.
>
If I were you, I'd be going with a third party VoIP supplier, and using
this as an ideal opportunity to port your phone number into them, thus
decoupling forever your POTs from your broadband. You are then totally
free to use and manage your own router and VoIP adaptor

Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 14/07/2023 13:58, Robin wrote:
> > My first FTTP option - Hyperoptic - has just gone live so I've been
> > looking at their offers. I'm waiting for email support to answer my
> > questions about their routers as telephone support didn't have a clue
> > and the online router manuals don't even mention phones.
> >
> If I were you, I'd be going with a third party VoIP supplier, and using
> this as an ideal opportunity to port your phone number into them, thus
> decoupling forever your POTs from your broadband. You are then totally
> free to use and manage your own router and VoIP adaptor

Yes, that's the way things are going. FTTP ISPs provide connectivity
primarily, and voice is really an afterthought to smooth out the bumps for
people who previously had ADSL/FTTC that came with a phone.

It feels a little like ISP provided email - the ISP would much rather you
went to Gmail or Outlook rather than relying on their own email platform
which has costs and no benefits for the ISP.

I expect sooner or later ISPs will start partnering with VOIP companies,
offering to resell their VOIP services rather than running their own.

In your case I'd get the FTTP installed and working, and once done port out
your number to a third party provider which will also cease your copper
broadband. More details here:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Telephones,_analogue_to_digital_conversion

(although that's partly about 'digital voice' on copper lines, the comments
about a SIP service are relevant)

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 14/07/2023 13:58, Robin wrote:
>>> My first FTTP option - Hyperoptic - has just gone live so I've been
>>> looking at their offers. I'm waiting for email support to answer my
>>> questions about their routers as telephone support didn't have a clue
>>> and the online router manuals don't even mention phones.
>>>
>> If I were you, I'd be going with a third party VoIP supplier, and using
>> this as an ideal opportunity to port your phone number into them, thus
>> decoupling forever your POTs from your broadband. You are then totally
>> free to use and manage your own router and VoIP adaptor
>
> Yes, that's the way things are going. FTTP ISPs provide connectivity
> primarily, and voice is really an afterthought to smooth out the bumps for
> people who previously had ADSL/FTTC that came with a phone.
>
> It feels a little like ISP provided email - the ISP would much rather you
> went to Gmail or Outlook rather than relying on their own email platform
> which has costs and no benefits for the ISP.
>
> I expect sooner or later ISPs will start partnering with VOIP companies,
> offering to resell their VOIP services rather than running their own.
>
> In your case I'd get the FTTP installed and working, and once done port out
> your number to a third party provider which will also cease your copper
> broadband. More details here:
> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Telephones,_analogue_to_digital_conversion
>
> (although that's partly about 'digital voice' on copper lines, the comments
> about a SIP service are relevant)
>
> Theo
>

I think many ISPs see their own provided voice services as a way of making
it harder for you to swap ISP.

In message <khce17Fmra7U2@mid.individual.net> at Fri, 14 Jul 2023
09:07:03, Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> writes
>On 14/07/2023 08:52, Andy Burns wrote:
[]
>> Eh? if there's no FTTP, they'll have to fix the copper to keep FTTC
>>running, just like today.
>
>They will, but there are fewer and fewer Openreach staff with the
>experience and training to diagnose and fix copper/analogue faults.
>
>New Openreach recruits are only being trained for 'fibre skills' AIUI
>
>Get off FTTC as soon as you can (in other words as soon as FTTP is
>available for your home)

Is this commonly available as a no-cost (to the consumer) matter, or do
you in most cases have to pay for such a transition? (I'm distinguishing
between "available" and "desired" [by the provider].)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The voices of Radio 4 continuity and newsreading have been keeping me right
for as long as I can remember. I can call on a million different information
sources, but it doesn't make sense unti I've heard it from Peter, Harriet,
Charlotte and the rest.- Eddie Mair in Radio Times 10-16 November 2012

In message <u8rkvp$1n5q$1@dont-email.me> at Fri, 14 Jul 2023 14:10:01,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> writes
[]
>I think many ISPs see their own provided voice services as a way of making
>it harder for you to swap ISP.
>
Certainly by arranging contracts with different ending dates, and hefty
charges for ending one of them early; I don't know if that was banned by
the line-rental-separate-banning legislation someone told us about, but
PlusNet certainly used it a few years ago. It worked like this:
theoretical high prices for each service, but in practice provided at a
discount if you took both from them (like gas and electric "duel fuel
discounts" for energy providers - but in this case the discount was many
times, not just a bit off). So if you stopped whichever contract ended
early (by switching it to another supplier), what was left on the other
service contract was now at the full (and previously only theoretical)
charge. And you couldn't terminate _that_ one early on the grounds the
cost had gone up, because it hadn't: you'd agreed that you'd accept the
"duel fuel" discount and that you'd lose it. (Terminating early
_without_ "good reason" involved you in an early termination penalty of
more or less the remaining fee anyway.)

Presumably VoIP transfers, at least to the same provider, will _not_
involve changing number. (Is it possible to change VoIP _provider_ and
retain number, as it is for fobile ones?)

[I just about know my number, after being here about 16 years - and
there are times I'm not entirely sure still!]

Is "short dialling" - where you only have to dial the digits after the
code, if calling someone on the same exchange - still available on VoIP?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The voices of Radio 4 continuity and newsreading have been keeping me right
for as long as I can remember. I can call on a million different information
sources, but it doesn't make sense unti I've heard it from Peter, Harriet,
Charlotte and the rest.- Eddie Mair in Radio Times 10-16 November 2012

J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> In message <u8rkvp$1n5q$1@dont-email.me> at Fri, 14 Jul 2023 14:10:01,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> writes
> []
>> I think many ISPs see their own provided voice services as a way of making
>> it harder for you to swap ISP.
>>
> Certainly by arranging contracts with different ending dates, and hefty
> charges for ending one of them early; I don't know if that was banned by
> the line-rental-separate-banning legislation someone told us about, but
> PlusNet certainly used it a few years ago. It worked like this:
> theoretical high prices for each service, but in practice provided at a
> discount if you took both from them (like gas and electric "duel fuel
> discounts" for energy providers - but in this case the discount was many
> times, not just a bit off). So if you stopped whichever contract ended
> early (by switching it to another supplier), what was left on the other
> service contract was now at the full (and previously only theoretical)
> charge. And you couldn't terminate _that_ one early on the grounds the
> cost had gone up, because it hadn't: you'd agreed that you'd accept the
> "duel fuel" discount and that you'd lose it. (Terminating early
> _without_ "good reason" involved you in an early termination penalty of
> more or less the remaining fee anyway.)
>
> Presumably VoIP transfers, at least to the same provider, will _not_
> involve changing number. (Is it possible to change VoIP _provider_ and
> retain number, as it is for fobile ones?)
>
> [I just about know my number, after being here about 16 years - and
> there are times I'm not entirely sure still!]
>
> Is "short dialling" - where you only have to dial the digits after the
> code, if calling someone on the same exchange - still available on VoIP?

Number portability exists for voip. I’ve moved a number that was originally
BT to Sipgate (voip) and then to Andrews and Arnold (voip). The latter
charge me £1.44 per month excluding any call charges, which gives you an
indication of the true economic cost of providing such a service.

On 14/07/2023 14:56, Theo wrote:

> It feels a little like ISP provided email - the ISP would much rather you
> went to Gmail or Outlook rather than relying on their own email platform
> which has costs and no benefits for the ISP.
>
I got e-mail service from BT as part of the landline broadband service I
paid for whether I used it or not, and now I am on someone else's 4G
service, I have to pay them a monthly fee, as I do for my website and
private e-mail server, which are on a server somewhere or other,
possibly in the EU.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 14/07/2023 14:56, Theo wrote:
> Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 14/07/2023 13:58, Robin wrote:
>>> My first FTTP option - Hyperoptic - has just gone live so I've been
>>> looking at their offers. I'm waiting for email support to answer my
>>> questions about their routers as telephone support didn't have a clue
>>> and the online router manuals don't even mention phones.
>>>
>> If I were you, I'd be going with a third party VoIP supplier, and using
>> this as an ideal opportunity to port your phone number into them, thus
>> decoupling forever your POTs from your broadband. You are then totally
>> free to use and manage your own router and VoIP adaptor
>
> Yes, that's the way things are going. FTTP ISPs provide connectivity
> primarily, and voice is really an afterthought to smooth out the bumps for
> people who previously had ADSL/FTTC that came with a phone.

That is very much in mind (not least as Hyperoptic they don't even offer
a call package that has free calls to mobiles). But I still wanted to
know what they supported.

>
> It feels a little like ISP provided email - the ISP would much rather you
> went to Gmail or Outlook rather than relying on their own email platform
> which has costs and no benefits for the ISP.
>
> I expect sooner or later ISPs will start partnering with VOIP companies,
> offering to resell their VOIP services rather than running their own.
>
> In your case I'd get the FTTP installed and working, and once done port out
> your number to a third party provider which will also cease your copper
> broadband. More details here:
> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Telephones,_analogue_to_digital_conversion
>

As you possibly recall I know about (and contributed a bit to) that
helpful page. But (unless I've missed a change) it doesn't cover my
precise circs - viz Virgin Media BB & phone. So I'm exploring taking the
number to Hyperoptic and then on to separate VOIP..

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid