I just selected BBC4 (sorry, "BBC FOUR"), forgetting it wasn't on this
time of day.

I see they've changed the "card" - may have changed it months ago, but
obviously I don't see it that often!; it's now plain white text (and
logos) on (dark) blue, not the old white on black that included
something like "if you can still see programming through this, change
channel and come back", or similar.

Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder
for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?

[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
both "smart" and actually connected.]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

.... each generation tends to imagine that its attitude to sex strikes just
about the right balance; that by comparison its predecessors were prim and
embarrassed, its successors sex-obsessed and pornified. - Julian Barnes, Radio
Times 9-15 March 2013

J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
> any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder
> for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
>
> [In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
> both "smart" and actually connected.]

You can buy a box for a few tens of pounds to plug into your TV, which
allows you to watch iPlayer on your dumb TV. I've done so for a CRT TV -
needed an extra HDMI to SCART converter as the box only had HDMI and the TV
only had analogue inputs. But it worked fine.

So the statement is true: you *can*, you may just have to buy extra hardware
to do so. (and have an internet connection, of course)

Theo

In message <I9j*EhRkz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Sun, 9 Jul 2023
15:43:06, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
>J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>> Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
>> any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder
>> for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
>>
>> [In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
>> both "smart" and actually connected.]
>
>You can buy a box for a few tens of pounds to plug into your TV, which
>allows you to watch iPlayer on your dumb TV. I've done so for a CRT TV -
>needed an extra HDMI to SCART converter as the box only had HDMI and the TV
>only had analogue inputs. But it worked fine.
>
>So the statement is true: you *can*, you may just have to buy extra hardware
>to do so. (and have an internet connection, of course)
>
>Theo

In other words, you can watch iPlayer on your MONITOR, if you shell out
a few tens of pounds, and possibly more for an adaptor, AND have an
internet connection.

You can watch DVDs "on your TV" too. But not unless it has a DVD player
built-in or connected.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I don't like that word [atheist]; it implies that there's a god not to believe
in - Eric Idle, quoted in RT 2016/12/10-16

Good question. I'd guess many gave up trying to update the apps on the smart
tv, and shoved in a firestick instead.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message
news:J0+kFZKZxqqkFw5U@255soft.uk...
>I just selected BBC4 (sorry, "BBC FOUR"), forgetting it wasn't on this time
>of day.
>
> I see they've changed the "card" - may have changed it months ago, but
> obviously I don't see it that often!; it's now plain white text (and
> logos) on (dark) blue, not the old white on black that included something
> like "if you can still see programming through this, change channel and
> come back", or similar.
>
> Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at any
> time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder for
> what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
>
> [In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
> both "smart" and actually connected.]
> --
> J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
>
> ... each generation tends to imagine that its attitude to sex strikes just
> about the right balance; that by comparison its predecessors were prim and
> embarrassed, its successors sex-obsessed and pornified. - Julian Barnes,
> Radio
> Times 9-15 March 2013

Is this not the same logic that assumes everyone has a smart phone and can
use it? I despair when I note that tickets can only be bought via eventbrite
and shown on the screen of your phone when attending.
Somebody needs to force the powers that be to acknowledge there are
citizens who do not have smart anythings or the internet.. Or is the whole
reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to give everyone
broadband whether they want it or not?
How broad is your band?
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message
news:yLNa6pMXm0qkFw8i@255soft.uk...
> In message <I9j*EhRkz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Sun, 9 Jul 2023
> 15:43:06, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
>>J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>> Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
>>> any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder
>>> for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
>>>
>>> [In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
>>> both "smart" and actually connected.]
>>
>>You can buy a box for a few tens of pounds to plug into your TV, which
>>allows you to watch iPlayer on your dumb TV. I've done so for a CRT TV -
>>needed an extra HDMI to SCART converter as the box only had HDMI and the
>>TV
>>only had analogue inputs. But it worked fine.
>>
>>So the statement is true: you *can*, you may just have to buy extra
>>hardware
>>to do so. (and have an internet connection, of course)
>>
>>Theo
>
> In other words, you can watch iPlayer on your MONITOR, if you shell out a
> few tens of pounds, and possibly more for an adaptor, AND have an internet
> connection.
>
> You can watch DVDs "on your TV" too. But not unless it has a DVD player
> built-in or connected.
> --
> J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
>
> I don't like that word [atheist]; it implies that there's a god not to
> believe
> in - Eric Idle, quoted in RT 2016/12/10-16

On Sun, 9 Jul 2023 13:47:21 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>
wrote:

>I just selected BBC4 (sorry, "BBC FOUR"), forgetting it wasn't on this
>time of day.
>
>I see they've changed the "card" - may have changed it months ago, but
>obviously I don't see it that often!; it's now plain white text (and
>logos) on (dark) blue, not the old white on black that included
>something like "if you can still see programming through this, change
>channel and come back", or similar.
>
>Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
>any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder
>for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
>
>[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
>both "smart" and actually connected.]

<pedant_mode> You can watch 'the programmes' at any time just not
necessarily contemporaneous with broadcast just as you can watch films
on Netflix at any time /<pedant_mode>

J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> In other words, you can watch iPlayer on your MONITOR, if you shell out
> a few tens of pounds, and possibly more for an adaptor, AND have an
> internet connection.
>
> You can watch DVDs "on your TV" too. But not unless it has a DVD player
> built-in or connected.

You can't watch broadcast programmes on your TV unless your house has an
aerial (or other connection) installed and your TV is suitably tuned. Some
level of investment is necessary to unlock the functionality. For many
people with smart TVs that investment will be limited to 5 minutes setting
it up.

Theo

On 10/07/2023 00:58, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <I9j*EhRkz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Sun, 9 Jul 2023
> 15:43:06, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
>> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

>>> Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
>>> any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder
>>> for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
>>>
>>> [In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
>>> both "smart" and actually connected.]
>>
>> You can buy a box for a few tens of pounds to plug into your TV, which
>> allows you to watch iPlayer on your dumb TV.  I've done so for a CRT TV -
>> needed an extra HDMI to SCART converter as the box only had HDMI and
>> the TV
>> only had analogue inputs.  But it worked fine.
>>
>> So the statement is true: you *can*, you may just have to buy extra
>> hardware
>> to do so.  (and have an internet connection, of course)
>>
>> Theo
>
> In other words, you can watch iPlayer on your MONITOR, if you shell out
> a few tens of pounds, and possibly more for an adaptor, AND have an
> internet connection.

I just connect my laptop to the TV with an HDMI lead.

--
Max Demian

Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

>.. Or is the whole
> reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to give everyone
> broadband whether they want it or not?

I suspect they are predicting that the price of copper will rise due to
the demand for electric cars. They are ripping out plant as fast as
they can to make a killing on the copper market before the politicians
come to their senses and realise that electric cars are actually making
the environmental prolems worse.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Brian Gaff wrote:

> is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to
> give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?

Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
broadband prices ...

In message <H9j*7zVkz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Mon, 10 Jul 2023
11:14:05, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
>J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>> In other words, you can watch iPlayer on your MONITOR, if you shell out
>> a few tens of pounds, and possibly more for an adaptor, AND have an
>> internet connection.
>>
>> You can watch DVDs "on your TV" too. But not unless it has a DVD player
>> built-in or connected.
>
>You can't watch broadcast programmes on your TV unless your house has an
>aerial (or other connection) installed and your TV is suitably tuned. Some
>level of investment is necessary to unlock the functionality. For many
>people with smart TVs that investment will be limited to 5 minutes setting
>it up.
>
>Theo

Plus maintaining their broadband connection as well as the TV licence.
With an aerial, you only need the TV licence.

(If they have broadband _anyway_, fine - but not everyone does. Though I
think they should, and maybe the end of POTS will cause it.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

My friend David had his ID stolen - now he's just Dav

In message <u8gk36$2gduf$1@dont-email.me> at Mon, 10 Jul 2023 10:47:17,
Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> writes
>Is this not the same logic that assumes everyone has a smart phone and can
>use it? I despair when I note that tickets can only be bought via eventbrite
>and shown on the screen of your phone when attending.
> Somebody needs to force the powers that be to acknowledge there are
>citizens who do not have smart anythings or the internet.. Or is the whole
>reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to give everyone
>broadband whether they want it or not?
> How broad is your band?
> Brian
>
The word you slipped in - unintentionally, I'm sure - is "give".

*IF* the solution _is_ to actually _give_ everyone broadband - i. e.
provide it at no more than the line rental charge - then I'd accept it*,
but I very much doubt either the government or the ISPs have any
intention of doing away with that revenue stream. I've thought for some
time that the splitting of the charge into line rental and broadband is
increasingly arbitrary (and leads to many dishonest marketing
practices), but without legislation - from a government that knows what
it's doing, so that's a pipedream - it won't happen.

*Yes, even universal broadband would far from solve everything, but I'd
withdraw a lot of my objections.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

My friend David had his ID stolen - now he's just Dav

On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:18:08 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>
>Brian Gaff wrote:
>
>> is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to
>> give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?
>
>Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
>broadband prices ...

That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.

In message <jvknaidlhjvlo6set46mt5348jk8t168mr@4ax.com> at Mon, 10 Jul
2023 10:51:11, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> writes
>On Sun, 9 Jul 2023 13:47:21 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>
>wrote:
[]
>>Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
>>any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder
>>for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
>>
>>[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
>>both "smart" and actually connected.]
>
><pedant_mode> You can watch 'the programmes' at any time just not
>necessarily contemporaneous with broadcast just as you can watch films
>on Netflix at any time /<pedant_mode>

<pedant>You can only "watch … iPlayer on your TV" if you have (a) a
smart TV (b) a broadband connection, and (c) the two are connected. The
incessant plugging of iPlayer (e. g. "press red to watch it") _never_
mentions any of these, all of which are _in addition to_ what the person
they are plugging it to has to have done to receive the plugs.</pedant>

I haven't seen the national lottery use the "it could be you"
advertising line for a while; I wonder if that's because it's incomplete
without "if you buy a ticket", and they'd had their knuckles rapped
and/or too many complaints.

I wondered about leaving off the "</pedant>", as I usually operate in
somewhat-pedant mode anyway. (-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

My friend David had his ID stolen - now he's just Dav

On 10/07/2023 15:00, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:18:08 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Brian Gaff wrote:
>>
>>> is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to
>>> give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?
>> Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
>> broadband prices ...
> That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.
>
I think you'll find that the idea is a levy will be added to ALL
broadband contracts, so it's irrelevant whether or not you use iplayer.

A bit like all those schools you pay for via council tax, despite having
no children ?

J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> In message <H9j*7zVkz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Mon, 10 Jul 2023
> 11:14:05, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
> >
> >You can't watch broadcast programmes on your TV unless your house has an
> >aerial (or other connection) installed and your TV is suitably tuned. Some
> >level of investment is necessary to unlock the functionality. For many
> >people with smart TVs that investment will be limited to 5 minutes setting
> >it up.
>
> Plus maintaining their broadband connection as well as the TV licence.
> With an aerial, you only need the TV licence.

And you can only run a TV if you have electricity.

> (If they have broadband _anyway_, fine - but not everyone does. Though I
> think they should, and maybe the end of POTS will cause it.)

Not everyone has electricity. Some people are off grid, others live in
caves. Where does this rabbit hole end?

(if you want X, it's up to you to arrange prerequisites Y and Z. If you
don't want X, then nobody is forcing you to have it or provide its
prerequisites)

Theo

On 10/07/2023 15:46, Theo wrote:
> Not everyone has electricity. Some people are off grid, others live in
> caves. Where does this rabbit hole end?

How do they have broadband if no electricity.

On 10/07/2023 15:46, Theo wrote:
> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>> In message <H9j*7zVkz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Mon, 10 Jul 2023
>> 11:14:05, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
>>> You can't watch broadcast programmes on your TV unless your house has an
>>> aerial (or other connection) installed and your TV is suitably tuned. Some
>>> level of investment is necessary to unlock the functionality. For many
>>> people with smart TVs that investment will be limited to 5 minutes setting
>>> it up.
>> Plus maintaining their broadband connection as well as the TV licence.
>> With an aerial, you only need the TV licence.
> And you can only run a TV if you have electricity.
>
In the 60s some areas of NW Scotland and the isles got electricity
around about the same time as TV signals arrived I think ?

Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
>> broadband prices ...
>
> That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.

That's not how I took it, I've not listened to the podcast, but

<https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/07/07/wealthier-households-pay-more-bbc-licence-fee-richard-sharp/>

On 10/07/2023 15:09, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 10/07/2023 15:00, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:18:08 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Brian Gaff wrote:
>>>
>>>> is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to
>>>> give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?
>>> Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
>>> broadband prices ...
>> That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.
>>
> I think you'll find that the idea is a levy will be added to ALL
> broadband contracts, so it's irrelevant whether or not you use iplayer.
>

Yep. Idea's been around a while. BBC floated it in March 2020. As with
most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as well as
wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what? (E.g. what about
household with fibre + 4 mobile contracts? What about the employer-paid
contract for WTF?) But I suspect the killer argument is one the HoL made
last year: could end up no more progressive than the licence fee and may
discourage poor households from having broadband with nasty effects on
kids education.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Robin wrote:

> As with most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as well
> as wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what?

Maybe they fancy linking the licence price to something that's on the
inflation+X% model?

On 10/07/2023 15:58, Mark Carver wrote:
> In the 60s some areas of NW Scotland and the isles got electricity
> around about the same time as TV signals arrived I think ?

By that time it would be individual small communities, I don't think
there many larger communities with no electricity by then.

I can't think of any relays that came on at the same time as the
electricity supply.

What should have been the last analogue UHF relay (*) took over the
supply to a local self-help scheme.

(*) Another site became the last because the 'powers that be' did not
think a muddy site was a good place to take VIPs for the opening ceremony!

Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
> On 10/07/2023 15:09, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 10/07/2023 15:00, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
>>> On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:18:08 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Brian Gaff wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to
>>>>> give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?
>>>> Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
>>>> broadband prices ...
>>> That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.
>>>
>> I think you'll find that the idea is a levy will be added to ALL
>> broadband contracts, so it's irrelevant whether or not you use iplayer.
>>
>
> Yep. Idea's been around a while. BBC floated it in March 2020. As with
> most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as well as
> wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what? (E.g. what about
> household with fibre + 4 mobile contracts? What about the employer-paid
> contract for WTF?) But I suspect the killer argument is one the HoL made
> last year: could end up no more progressive than the licence fee and may
> discourage poor households from having broadband with nasty effects on
> kids education.
>
>
>

It will end up on the council tax, just as Police, Fire etc are added. Easy
to administer and hard to avoid. CT has reductions for single person
households, the hard up etc.

In article <kh2kk1F229eU2@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 10/07/2023 15:46, Theo wrote:
> > J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> >> In message <H9j*7zVkz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Mon, 10 Jul 2023
> >> 11:14:05, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
> >>> You can't watch broadcast programmes on your TV unless your house has
> >>> an aerial (or other connection) installed and your TV is suitably
> >>> tuned. Some level of investment is necessary to unlock the
> >>> functionality. For many people with smart TVs that investment will
> >>> be limited to 5 minutes setting it up.
> >> Plus maintaining their broadband connection as well as the TV licence.
> >> With an aerial, you only need the TV licence.
> > And you can only run a TV if you have electricity.
> >
> In the 60s some areas of NW Scotland and the isles got electricity
> around about the same time as TV signals arrived I think ?

When I was on South Uist (mid '70s) checking new transmitter coverage, a
lady came out of her house and "we haven't got the electric". So, you're
right

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 10/07/2023 18:24, Tweed wrote:
> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>> On 10/07/2023 15:09, Mark Carver wrote:
>>> On 10/07/2023 15:00, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:18:08 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Brian Gaff wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to
>>>>>> give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?
>>>>> Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
>>>>> broadband prices ...
>>>> That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.
>>>>
>>> I think you'll find that the idea is a levy will be added to ALL
>>> broadband contracts, so it's irrelevant whether or not you use iplayer.
>>>
>>
>> Yep. Idea's been around a while. BBC floated it in March 2020. As with
>> most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as well as
>> wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what? (E.g. what about
>> household with fibre + 4 mobile contracts? What about the employer-paid
>> contract for WTF?) But I suspect the killer argument is one the HoL made
>> last year: could end up no more progressive than the licence fee and may
>> discourage poor households from having broadband with nasty effects on
>> kids education.
>>
>>
>>
>
> It will end up on the council tax, just as Police, Fire etc are added. Easy
> to administer and hard to avoid. CT has reductions for single person
> households, the hard up etc.
>

I've not seen the proponents of that address the fact that local
taxation is a devolved matter. (Hence e.g. there is no council tax in NI.)

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid