On 21.04.24 00:49, Cameo wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> On 2024-04-20, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
>>> Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>> Am 19.04.24 um 22:34 schrieb Cameo:
>>>>> Supposedly the new iPhones have the new UWB built in, but I haven't
>>>>> found it anywhere in the Setup. Anybody has?
>>>>
>>>> What do you expect? This is nothing you can actively manage. You can
>>>> turn it off and on:
>>>>
>>>> https://support.apple.com/de-ch/guide/iphone/iph771fd0aad/ios
>>>
>>> Fine, but I couldn’t find even that on-off switch.
>>
>> Airplane Mode turns it off. Pretty sure you were already told that once.
>>
>
> Airplane mode turns off all rádios, so that’s not much of a clue for most
> people.

Then it works as intended by the manufacturer. For security reasons.

--
"Mille viae ducunt hominem per saecula Romam." (Alanus ab Insulis 1120-1202)

On Sun, 21 Apr 2024 11:55:09 +0200, Jörg Lorenz wrote:

>> Airplane mode turns off all rádios, so that’s not much of a clue for most
>> people.
>
> Then it works as intended by the manufacturer. For security reasons.

Correction. It works as Apple intended. For profit reasons.

Ethical OEMs allow the user to turn just UWB off. For privacy reasons.

On 2024-04-21, Wolf Greenblatt <wolf@greenblatt.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Apr 2024 11:55:09 +0200, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>
>>> Airplane mode turns off all rádios, so that’s not much of a clue for
>>> most people.
>>
>> Then it works as intended by the manufacturer. For security reasons.
>
> Correction. It works as Apple intended. For profit reasons.

Nonsense. There's no profit motive here.

--
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JR

On 2024-04-20, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>> On 2024-04-19 16:34, Cameo wrote:
>>> Supposedly the new iPhones have the new UWB built in, but I haven't
>>> found it anywhere in the Setup. Anybody has?
>>
>> As other point out, it's either on or off depending on Airplane mode.
>>
>> UWB (in iPhones, etc.) is an Apple feature for high data rate transfers
>> and ranging functions. It's sort of a "back office" function that the
>> user doesn't need to worry about much.
>>
>> (To date it's not clear to me if it's actually used for data transfer in
>> Apple devices).
>
> That’s it: how do I know UWB is on?

Why should I care whether it's on?

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On 2024-04-21 07:12, Wolf Greenblatt wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Apr 2024 11:55:09 +0200, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>
>>> Airplane mode turns off all rádios, so that’s not much of a clue for most
>>> people.
>>
>> Then it works as intended by the manufacturer. For security reasons.
>
> Correction. It works as Apple intended. For profit reasons.
>
> Ethical OEMs allow the user to turn just UWB off. For privacy reasons.

What "profit reason" would that have been?

On 21 Apr 2024 16:33:12 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

>> Correction. It works as Apple intended. For profit reasons.
>
> Nonsense. There's no profit motive here.

Rest assured Apple didn't put a circa $20 chip for non-profit reasons,
given Apple does nothing that doesn't eke more money out of its owners.

More to the OP's point though, especially given the obvious huge privacy
implications, is why do you think Apple doesn't provide UWB on/off control.

Why does every phone EXCEPT Apple's iPhone provide that basic privacy?

On 21 Apr 2024 16:34:08 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

>> That's it: how do I know UWB is on?
>
> Why should I care whether it's on?

There are two fundamental reasons to care about the UWB radio, maybe
neither of which YOU care about - but many others do care about them.

On 2024-04-21 18:24:53 +0000, Nick Cine said:
> On 21 Apr 2024 16:34:08 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>
>>> That's it: how do I know UWB is on?
>>
>> Why should I care whether it's on?
>
> There are two fundamental reasons to care about the UWB radio, maybe
> neither of which YOU care about - but many others do care about them.

Mainly in the minds of conspiracy nutters who think the entire world is
out to get them. :-\

On 2024-04-21 11:20, Wolf Greenblatt wrote:
> On 21 Apr 2024 16:33:12 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>>> Correction. It works as Apple intended. For profit reasons.
>>
>> Nonsense. There's no profit motive here.
>
> Rest assured Apple didn't put a circa $20 chip for non-profit reasons,
> given Apple does nothing that doesn't eke more money out of its owners.

The "profit motive" is to give its customers a useful technology.

>
> More to the OP's point though, especially given the obvious huge privacy
> implications, is why do you think Apple doesn't provide UWB on/off control.
>
> Why does every phone EXCEPT Apple's iPhone provide that basic privacy?

It's a consppiiiiiiiirrrrrraacccyyyyyy!

On 2024-04-21, Nick Cine <nickcine@is.invalid> wrote:
> On 21 Apr 2024 16:34:08 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>>> That's it: how do I know UWB is on?
>>
>> Why should I care whether it's on?
>
> There are two fundamental reasons to care about the UWB radio, maybe
> neither of which YOU care about - but many others do care about them.

Must be really important considering your inability to articulate either
of them.

--
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JR

On 21 Apr 2024 23:44:34 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

>>>> That's it: how do I know UWB is on?
>>>
>>> Why should I care whether it's on?
>>
>> There are two fundamental reasons to care about the UWB radio, maybe
>> neither of which YOU care about - but many others do care about them.
>
> Must be really important considering your inability to articulate either
> of them.

You're arguing it's not needed, and not wanted - yet you don't understand
it. Consider it obvious that only Apple doesn't allow you to turn UWB off.

Every other phone made with UWB allows a separate on/off control for the
obvious two reasons, which, if you don't know, you know nothing about UWB.

On 2024-04-22, Nick Cine <nickcine@is.invalid> wrote:
> On 21 Apr 2024 23:44:34 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>>>>> That's it: how do I know UWB is on?
>>>>
>>>> Why should I care whether it's on?
>>>
>>> There are two fundamental reasons to care about the UWB radio, maybe
>>> neither of which YOU care about - but many others do care about
>>> them.
>>
>> Must be really important considering your inability to articulate
>> either of them.
>
> You're arguing

I haven't argued anything, troll boy. I asked a question, and you have
failed to answer. You must have the mental and emotional capacity of a
child to think that asking a legitimate question and expecting an honest
answer is "arguing".

--
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JR

On 22 Apr 2024 03:04:01 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

> I asked a question, and you have
> failed to answer. You must have the mental and emotional capacity of a
> child to think that asking a legitimate question and expecting an honest
> answer is "arguing".

The answer is obvious to all (except you, it seems) so for you to say the
UWB switch is not needed & not wanted is you being the troll boy, not me.
<1> Power
<2> Privacy

That answer is so simple that for you to not know it means you know nothing
about UWB. Particularly the huge privacy implications of not being able to
turn it off only on Apple products (everyone else lets you turn it off).

Why do you think only Apple denies users the basic privacy to turn UWB off?

On 21.04.24 16:12, Wolf Greenblatt wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Apr 2024 11:55:09 +0200, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>
>>> Airplane mode turns off all rádios, so that’s not much of a clue for most
>>> people.
>>
>> Then it works as intended by the manufacturer. For security reasons.
>
> Correction. It works as Apple intended. For profit reasons.
>
> Ethical OEMs allow the user to turn just UWB off. For privacy reasons.

Arlen, you are trolling again.

--
"Mille viae ducunt hominem per saecula Romam." (Alanus ab Insulis 1120-1202)

On 2024-04-22, Nick Cine <nickcine@is.invalid> wrote:
> On 22 Apr 2024 03:04:01 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>> I asked a question, and you have failed to answer. You must have the
>> mental and emotional capacity of a child to think that asking a
>> legitimate question and expecting an honest answer is "arguing".
>
> The answer is obvious

Yet you are unable to articulate it.

> for you to say

I said nothing - I asked a question. And you refuse to answer.

--
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JR

On 2024-04-20 18:49, Cameo wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>> On 2024-04-19 16:34, Cameo wrote:
>>> Supposedly the new iPhones have the new UWB built in, but I haven't
>>> found it anywhere in the Setup. Anybody has?
>>
>> As other point out, it's either on or off depending on Airplane mode.
>>
>> UWB (in iPhones, etc.) is an Apple feature for high data rate transfers
>> and ranging functions. It's sort of a "back office" function that the
>> user doesn't need to worry about much.
>>
>> (To date it's not clear to me if it's actually used for data transfer in
>> Apple devices).
>>
>
> That’s it: how do I know UWB is on? I have a feeling Android phones show it
> with little icon on the top 5 mm of the screen the way they used to
> indicate if 3G or 4G/LTE was being used. Apple likes to keep us in the
> dark, sp it seems.

I don't know about Android in this sense but I'd be very surprised.
This is a "back office" function.

If the phone has it (see model no.) and you're not in Airplane Mode,
then it is on.

There are thousands - 10's of thousands of states in an appliance like
an iPhone. Apple don't expose many of them because: no need.

--
“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first;
nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.”
- Charles de Gaulle.

On 2024-04-21 14:20, Wolf Greenblatt wrote:
> On 21 Apr 2024 16:33:12 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>>> Correction. It works as Apple intended. For profit reasons.
>>
>> Nonsense. There's no profit motive here.
>
> Rest assured Apple didn't put a circa $20 chip for non-profit reasons,
> given Apple does nothing that doesn't eke more money out of its owners.

The main purpose of UWB (so far) is for object locating (such as AirTag
and AirPods).
I suspect their line cost is more like $2 if not less for the device in
question. Not that it matters, Apple don't charge prices according to
manufactured costs. You should know that.

--
“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first;
nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.”
- Charles de Gaulle.

On 22 Apr 2024 15:44:12 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

>> The answer is obvious
>
> Yet you are unable to articulate it.
>
>> for you to say
>
> I said nothing - I asked a question. And you refuse to answer.

WTF? I gave you the answer already. Look again. It's in the response you
just read and cut way all but the answer that I gave you.

Open your eyes this time.

On 2024-04-22 15:42, Nick Cine wrote:
> On 22 Apr 2024 15:44:12 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>>> The answer is obvious
>>
>> Yet you are unable to articulate it.
>>
>>> for you to say
>>
>> I said nothing - I asked a question. And you refuse to answer.
>
> WTF? I gave you the answer already. Look again. It's in the response you
> just read and cut way all but the answer that I gave you.
>
> Open your eyes this time.

I've rechecked the previous messages.

You never answered his question in any substantive way.

On 2024-04-22, Nick Cine <nickcine@is.invalid> wrote:
> On 22 Apr 2024 15:44:12 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>>> The answer is obvious
>>
>> Yet you are unable to articulate it.
>>
>>> for you to say
>>
>> I said nothing - I asked a question. And you refuse to answer.
>
> WTF? I gave you the answer already.i

Nope. "huge privacy implications" isn't an answer, since it doesn't
explain what the actual supposed privacy implication is. I asked a
specific question, and you have been unable to articulate an answer.

> Open your eyes this time.

Unlike you, my eyes are wide open. I've even asked for an explanation
hoping to learn more, and you have failed to provide anything of
substance as usual.

You are trolling. And it's a weak troll with nothing apparent to back it
up, just bogus claims without substance as usual.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 18:30:00 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

>> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-19 16:34, Cameo wrote:
>>>> Supposedly the new iPhones have the new UWB built in, but I haven't
>>>> found it anywhere in the Setup. Anybody has?
>>>
>>> As other point out, it's either on or off depending on Airplane mode.
>>>
>>> UWB (in iPhones, etc.) is an Apple feature for high data rate transfers
>>> and ranging functions. It's sort of a "back office" function that the
>>> user doesn't need to worry about much.
>>>
>>> (To date it's not clear to me if it's actually used for data transfer in
>>> Apple devices).
>>>
>>
>> That's it: how do I know UWB is on? I have a feeling Android phones show it
>> with little icon on the top 5 mm of the screen the way they used to
>> indicate if 3G or 4G/LTE was being used. Apple likes to keep us in the
>> dark, sp it seems.
>
> I don't know about Android in this sense but I'd be very surprised.
> This is a "back office" function.
>
> If the phone has it (see model no.) and you're not in Airplane Mode,
> then it is on.
>
> There are thousands - 10's of thousands of states in an appliance like
> an iPhone. Apple don't expose many of them because: no need.

Apple originally supplied a GUI to specifically turn UWB off in the beta.
https://www.macrumors.com/how-to/disable-ultra-wideband-chip-iphone/

How to Disable the Ultra Wideband Chip in Your iPhone 11 Pro
to Prevent Location Data Usage

"A security researcher discovered that Apple's iPhone 11 Pro models
access user location data even when all apps and system services on the
*iPhone* are set to not request the data... Apple responded by explaining
that *these *iPhone** models have a U1 Ultra Wideband chip... With the
release of iOS 13.3.1, Apple is adding an option to its *iPhone* software
that allows users to turn off the UI chip entirely if they so wish.

The new option is hidden away in settings, but you can find it by
following the steps below.

Launch the Settings app on your *iPhone*.
Tap Privacy.
Tap Location Services.
Tap System Services at the bottom of the menu.
Toggle the Networking & Wireless switch to the grey OFF position.
A prompt will appear - tap Turn Off to confirm."

Did that UWB privacy switch never make it into the iOS release stream?

On 22 Apr 2024 22:54:15 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

>> Open your eyes this time.
>
> Unlike you, my eyes are wide open.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/uwb-new-wireless-technology-could-nightmare-privacy-alexander-leschik
"it is important to be aware of the potential privacy implications of UWB"

https://medium.com/@orlandonhoward/the-silent-advent-of-uwb-technology-and-its-implications-for-privacy-6114fb2da0d3
"The proliferation of UWB in cell phones enables scenarios where the
locations and movements of every person with a UWB device can be precisely
tracked with UWB sensors mounted in inconspicuous places."

https://freedom-to-tinker.com/2019/12/21/every-move-you-make-ill-be-watching-you-privacy-implications-of-the-apple-u1-chip-and-ultra-wideband/
"What makes the current generation of UWB chips stand out is that for the
first time they will be deployed in mobile phones, which for a lot of
people is an inseparable part of their daily routine. While it is promoted
by Apple as just another sensor to "Share. Find. Play. More precisely than
ever," this technology has the power to disrupt existing societal norms.
Suddenly businesses will be able to track an individual's location within
their stores down to the centimeter, which gives them the power to track
which products you look at in real-time. Similar to the debated facial
recognition technology, UWB localization offers a new capability to capture
and ultimately profile identities of a user. Essentially, the new chip is a
marketer's dream in a box. Shops already track your purchases, leading to
cases like the infamous 2012 case where Target unintentionally divulged a
teen's pregnancy to her father. When a store has UWB-enabled access points,
it will be easy to monitor a phone's location indoors and track what you
considered purchasing in addition to what you actually purchase."

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
> On 2024-04-20 18:49, Cameo wrote:
>> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-19 16:34, Cameo wrote:
>>>> Supposedly the new iPhones have the new UWB built in, but I haven't
>>>> found it anywhere in the Setup. Anybody has?
>>>
>>> As other point out, it's either on or off depending on Airplane mode.
>>>
>>> UWB (in iPhones, etc.) is an Apple feature for high data rate transfers
>>> and ranging functions. It's sort of a "back office" function that the
>>> user doesn't need to worry about much.
>>>
>>> (To date it's not clear to me if it's actually used for data transfer in
>>> Apple devices).
>>>
>>
>> That’s it: how do I know UWB is on? I have a feeling Android phones show it
>> with little icon on the top 5 mm of the screen the way they used to
>> indicate if 3G or 4G/LTE was being used. Apple likes to keep us in the
>> dark, sp it seems.
>
> I don't know about Android in this sense but I'd be very surprised.
> This is a "back office" function.
>
> If the phone has it (see model no.) and you're not in Airplane Mode,
> then it is on.

Then it’s on … Provided that the network provider has a near antenna to
broadcast UWB. We need to see some indication of that so we can see the
difference in data speed when it exists and when it does not.

On 2024-04-23 12:20, Bill Powell wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 18:30:00 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:
>
>>> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2024-04-19 16:34, Cameo wrote:
>>>>> Supposedly the new iPhones have the new UWB built in, but I haven't
>>>>> found it anywhere in the Setup. Anybody has?
>>>>
>>>> As other point out, it's either on or off depending on Airplane mode.
>>>>
>>>> UWB (in iPhones, etc.) is an Apple feature for high data rate transfers
>>>> and ranging functions.  It's sort of a "back office" function that the
>>>> user doesn't need to worry about much.
>>>>
>>>> (To date it's not clear to me if it's actually used for data
>>>> transfer in
>>>> Apple devices).
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's it: how do I know UWB is on? I have a feeling Android phones
>>> show it
>>> with little icon on the top 5 mm  of the screen the way they used to
>>> indicate if 3G or 4G/LTE was being used. Apple likes to keep us in the
>>> dark, sp it seems.
>>
>> I don't know about Android in this sense but I'd be very surprised.
>> This is a "back office" function.
>>
>> If the phone has it (see model no.) and you're not in Airplane Mode,
>> then it is on.
>>
>> There are thousands - 10's of thousands of states in an appliance like
>> an iPhone.  Apple don't expose many of them because: no need.
>
> Apple originally supplied a GUI to specifically turn UWB off in the beta.
> https://www.macrumors.com/how-to/disable-ultra-wideband-chip-iphone/
>
> How to Disable the Ultra Wideband Chip in Your iPhone 11 Pro to Prevent
> Location Data Usage

Not needed.

--
“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first;
nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.”
- Charles de Gaulle.

On 2024-04-23 12:52, Cameo wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>> On 2024-04-20 18:49, Cameo wrote:
>>> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2024-04-19 16:34, Cameo wrote:
>>>>> Supposedly the new iPhones have the new UWB built in, but I haven't
>>>>> found it anywhere in the Setup. Anybody has?
>>>>
>>>> As other point out, it's either on or off depending on Airplane mode.
>>>>
>>>> UWB (in iPhones, etc.) is an Apple feature for high data rate transfers
>>>> and ranging functions. It's sort of a "back office" function that the
>>>> user doesn't need to worry about much.
>>>>
>>>> (To date it's not clear to me if it's actually used for data transfer in
>>>> Apple devices).
>>>>
>>>
>>> That’s it: how do I know UWB is on? I have a feeling Android phones show it
>>> with little icon on the top 5 mm of the screen the way they used to
>>> indicate if 3G or 4G/LTE was being used. Apple likes to keep us in the
>>> dark, sp it seems.
>>
>> I don't know about Android in this sense but I'd be very surprised.
>> This is a "back office" function.
>>
>> If the phone has it (see model no.) and you're not in Airplane Mode,
>> then it is on.
>
> Then it’s on … Provided that the network provider has a near antenna to
> broadcast UWB. We need to see some indication of that so we can see the
> difference in data speed when it exists and when it does not.

Do we?

--
“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first;
nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.”
- Charles de Gaulle.