Everyone else can ignore this post...

I've put in a filter to kill any posts that come from Google groups,
but I'm not sure if it's filtering out legitimate posts. I haven't
seen a non-spam post since I put the filter in place.

Ken Robinson
Info-VAX list manager
kenrbnsn@rbnsn.com
kenrbnsn@gmail.com

On 11/28/2023 3:12 PM, Ken Robinson wrote:
> Everyone else can ignore this post...
>
> I've put in a filter to kill any posts that come from Google groups, but
> I'm not sure if it's filtering out legitimate posts. I haven't seen a
> non-spam post since I put the filter in place.
>

Looks like my news server is doing that now and it is resulting in
legitimate posts being dropped. Considering how many free public
and very inexpensive news servers are available I hope anyone
expecting to actually use USENET leaves google groups.

bill

bill wrote:

> Ken Robinson wrote:
>
>> I've put in a filter to kill any posts that come from Google groups
>
> Looks like my news server is doing that now and it is resulting in
> legitimate posts being dropped.

Yes, considering VMS people to be technically competent, a surprising
number of them use google groups :-(

> Considering how many free public
> and very inexpensive news servers are available I hope anyone
> expecting to actually use USENET leaves google groups.

+1

On 11/29/23 1:56 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
> bill wrote:
>
>> Ken Robinson wrote:
>>
>>> I've put in a filter to kill any posts that come from Google groups
>>
>> Looks like my news server is doing that now and it is resulting in
>> legitimate posts being dropped.
>
> Yes, considering VMS people to be technically competent, a surprising
> number of them use google groups :-(
>
>> Considering how many free public
>> and very inexpensive news servers are available I hope anyone
>> expecting to actually use USENET leaves google groups.
>
> +1

As has been said many times (whenever this suggestion comes up), not
everyone has NNTP access. Corporate firewalls mostly block it, for one
thing.

On 2023-11-29, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:
>
> As has been said many times (whenever this suggestion comes up), not
> everyone has NNTP access. Corporate firewalls mostly block it, for one
> thing.
>

Some services allow NNTP access on ports 80 and 443 for just that reason.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 11/29/2023 8:07 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-11-29, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:
>> As has been said many times (whenever this suggestion comes up), not
>> everyone has NNTP access. Corporate firewalls mostly block it, for one
>> thing.
>
> Some services allow NNTP access on ports 80 and 443 for just that reason.

If the corporate security setup keep port 80 and 443
open and block other ports but does not bother checking
what protocols are used on port 80/443, then I would say that
it is a weak security setup. Either the firewall
does some inspection or only allows outbound port 80/443
via a proxy that does some inspection.

Arne

On 11/29/23 07:07, Simon Clubley wrote:
> Some services allow NNTP access on ports 80 and 443 for just that reason.

Deep packet (protocol) inspection (a.k.a. DPI) often detects and often
blocks this.

This is especially true if a corporate proxy is in play.

This is even more true if TLS monkey in the middle is happening in
conjunction with the corporate proxy.

--
Grant. . . .

On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 06:37:33 -0600, "Craig A. Berry"
<craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:

>
>On 11/29/23 1:56 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
>> bill wrote:
>>
>>> Ken Robinson wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've put in a filter to kill any posts that come from Google groups
>>>
>>> Looks like my news server is doing that now and it is resulting in
>>> legitimate posts being dropped.
>>
>> Yes, considering VMS people to be technically competent, a surprising
>> number of them use google groups :-(
>>
>>> Considering how many free public
>>> and very inexpensive news servers are available I hope anyone
>>> expecting to actually use USENET leaves google groups.
>>
>> +1
>
>As has been said many times (whenever this suggestion comes up), not
>everyone has NNTP access. Corporate firewalls mostly block it, for one
>thing.

Everyone can have direct, unmediated (by corporate, or institutional
networks) NNTP access, if they have the will, and inclination, to do
so:

1. Private Internet access by whatever means (home internet, or
hotspot off their mobile phone internet)

2. A NNTP block account from a Usenet Newsgroup service provider -
fixed once off fee, lasts essentially forever if you are only
participating in text groups and not downloading binaries.

- or -

Use a free, quality, NNTP text newsgroup feed such as:

https://www.i2pn2.org/

https://www.eternal-september.org/

Anyone claiming they can only access via google groups merely wants
the convenience of participating with comp.os.vms during their working
hours.

Of course, I am happy to stand corrected (I've had a lot of practice,
historically) if someone presents a compelling technical scenario
where someone's only possible recourse to comp.os.vms is via google
groups. :-)

On 06/12/2023 00:33, Subcommandante XDelta wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 06:37:33 -0600, "Craig A. Berry"
> <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 11/29/23 1:56 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> bill wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ken Robinson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I've put in a filter to kill any posts that come from Google groups
>>>>
>>>> Looks like my news server is doing that now and it is resulting in
>>>> legitimate posts being dropped.
>>>
>>> Yes, considering VMS people to be technically competent, a surprising
>>> number of them use google groups :-(
>>>
>>>> Considering how many free public
>>>> and very inexpensive news servers are available I hope anyone
>>>> expecting to actually use USENET leaves google groups.
>>>
>>> +1
>>
>> As has been said many times (whenever this suggestion comes up), not
>> everyone has NNTP access. Corporate firewalls mostly block it, for one
>> thing.
>
> Everyone can have direct, unmediated (by corporate, or institutional
> networks) NNTP access, if they have the will, and inclination, to do
> so:
>
> 1. Private Internet access by whatever means (home internet, or
> hotspot off their mobile phone internet)
>
> 2. A NNTP block account from a Usenet Newsgroup service provider -
> fixed once off fee, lasts essentially forever if you are only
> participating in text groups and not downloading binaries.
>
> - or -
>
> Use a free, quality, NNTP text newsgroup feed such as:
>
> https://www.i2pn2.org/
>
> https://www.eternal-september.org/
>
> Anyone claiming they can only access via google groups merely wants
> the convenience of participating with comp.os.vms during their working
> hours.
>
> Of course, I am happy to stand corrected (I've had a lot of practice,
> historically) if someone presents a compelling technical scenario
> where someone's only possible recourse to comp.os.vms is via google
> groups. :-)

Its hard for any one who does not own, or perhaps use on a regular basis
a "real" computer of their own, so only own a Tablet or Phone but have
access to a locked down real computer for work, and I think there are
more of those these days.

In fact many have a PC but don't use it on a regular basis. My wife is
like that. She uses an iPad for 99% of her work. She does have access to
a PC but tends to only use it for serious work, and its in a room we
don't often use.

I have searched high and low and have yet to find a decent news reader
for Android or IOS as I too would like to ditch my Laptop, which is
heavy and has short battery life, for a 12" Android Tablet...

.... you might say "we don't want those sorts on usenet" but if thats the
case then USENET is pretty much doomed.

Dave

On 06.12.2023 12:01, David Wade wrote:

>
> Its hard for any one who does not own, or perhaps use on a regular basis
> a "real" computer of their own, so only own a Tablet or Phone but have
> access to a locked down real computer for work, and I think there are
> more of those these days.

Then why do they care about VMS?

Op 06.dec.2023 om 12:01 schreef David Wade:
> On 06/12/2023 00:33, Subcommandante XDelta wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 06:37:33 -0600, "Craig A. Berry"
>> <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 11/29/23 1:56 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>> bill wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ken Robinson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I've put in a filter to kill any posts that come from Google groups
>>>>>
>>>>> Looks like my news server is doing that now and it is resulting in
>>>>> legitimate posts being dropped.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, considering VMS people to be technically competent, a surprising
>>>> number of them use google groups :-(
>>>>
>>>>> Considering how many free public
>>>>> and very inexpensive news servers are available I hope anyone
>>>>> expecting to actually use USENET leaves google groups.
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>
>>> As has been said many times (whenever this suggestion comes up), not
>>> everyone has NNTP access.  Corporate firewalls mostly block it, for one
>>> thing.
>>
>> Everyone can have direct, unmediated (by corporate, or institutional
>> networks) NNTP access, if they have the will, and inclination, to do
>> so:
>>
>> 1. Private Internet access by whatever means (home internet, or
>> hotspot off their mobile phone internet)
>>
>> 2. A NNTP block account from a Usenet Newsgroup service provider -
>> fixed once off fee, lasts essentially forever if you are only
>> participating in text groups and not downloading binaries.
>>
>> - or -
>>
>> Use a free, quality, NNTP text newsgroup feed such as:
>>
>> https://www.i2pn2.org/
>>
>> https://www.eternal-september.org/
>>
>> Anyone claiming they can only access via google groups merely wants
>> the convenience of participating with comp.os.vms during their working
>> hours.
>>
>> Of course, I am happy to stand corrected (I've had a lot of practice,
>> historically) if someone presents a compelling technical scenario
>> where someone's only possible recourse to comp.os.vms is via google
>> groups. :-)
>
> Its hard for any one who does not own, or perhaps use on a regular basis
> a "real" computer of their own, so only own a Tablet or Phone but have
> access to a locked down real computer for work, and I think there are
> more of those these days.
>
> In fact many have a PC but don't use it on a regular basis. My wife is
> like that. She uses an iPad for 99% of her work. She does have access to
> a PC but tends to only use it for serious work, and its in a room we
> don't often use.
>
> I have searched high and low and have yet to find a decent news reader
> for Android or IOS as I too would like to ditch my Laptop, which is
> heavy and has short battery life, for a 12" Android Tablet...
>
> ... you might say "we don't want those sorts on usenet" but if thats the
> case then USENET is pretty much doomed.

There is a discussion here:
https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/WUX6T9ADy60
Experiences seem to vary. I have no experience. Maybe if Thunderbird for
Android comes out that I will give it a try.

David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>Its hard for any one who does not own, or perhaps use on a regular basis
>a "real" computer of their own, so only own a Tablet or Phone but have
>access to a locked down real computer for work, and I think there are
>more of those these days.

I cannot imagine trying to use Google Groups from such a horrible interface
either.

And while this may be relevant to Usenet as a whole, it would not seem to be
relevant to comp.os.vms where everyone likely has access to at least a VMS
machine or they would not be on here.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 12/6/2023 9:00 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>> Its hard for any one who does not own, or perhaps use on a regular basis
>> a "real" computer of their own, so only own a Tablet or Phone but have
>> access to a locked down real computer for work, and I think there are
>> more of those these days.
>
> I cannot imagine trying to use Google Groups from such a horrible interface
> either.
>
> And while this may be relevant to Usenet as a whole, it would not seem to be
> relevant to comp.os.vms where everyone likely has access to at least a VMS
> machine or they would not be on here.
> --scott
>
I use(d) Google Groups. Not because I'm lazy, not because I don't know
better, not because I'm a Google fan-guy. It was easy to point a
browser to it on my phone and skim the discussions. I was unable to
reply from my phone, but it prompted me to walk to my computer and
contribute to the group.

With the Thai spam flood, I have switched to i2pn2.org and Thunderbird.
Yeah, I know I've triggered the keyboard jackals to start complaining
now about Thunderbird and that interface. Whatever.

I read the VSI forums more than I read here so if you want to get my
attention, post over there.

John

On 06/12/2023 14:26, John Reagan wrote:
> On 12/6/2023 9:00 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> David Wade  <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>>> Its hard for any one who does not own, or perhaps use on a regular basis
>>> a "real" computer of their own, so only own a Tablet or Phone but have
>>> access to a locked down real computer for work, and I think there are
>>> more of those these days.
>>
>> I cannot imagine trying to use Google Groups from such a horrible
>> interface
>> either.
>>
>> And while this may be relevant to Usenet as a whole, it would not seem
>> to be
>> relevant to comp.os.vms where everyone likely has access to at least a
>> VMS
>> machine or they would not be on here.
>> --scott
>>
> I use(d) Google Groups.  Not because I'm lazy, not because I don't know
> better, not because I'm a Google fan-guy.  It was easy to point a
> browser to it on my phone and skim the discussions.  I was unable to
> reply from my phone, but it prompted me to walk to my computer and
> contribute to the group.
>
> With the Thai spam flood, I have switched to i2pn2.org and Thunderbird.
> Yeah, I know I've triggered the keyboard jackals to start complaining
> now about Thunderbird and that interface. Whatever.
>
> I read the VSI forums more than I read here so if you want to get my
> attention, post over there.
>
> John

There are a few usenet readers on Google Play store. I haven't tried
them, as I am normally on a PC or a laptop. I just searched for "news
group reader app"

--
Chris

On 12/6/23 05:01, David Wade wrote:
> Its hard for any one who does not own, or perhaps use on a regular basis
> a "real" computer of their own, so only own a Tablet or Phone but have
> access to a locked down real computer for work, and I think there are
> more of those these days.

I think you bring up a valid concern.

But I think it's at least two combined problems, 1) poor client
experience and 2) old Usenet mode of operation. Sadly both #1 and #2
compound each other quite a bit.

> ... you might say "we don't want those sorts on usenet" but if thats the
> case then USENET is pretty much doomed.

:-/

--
Grant. . . .

On 12/6/23 08:00, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> And while this may be relevant to Usenet as a whole, it would not seem to be
> relevant to comp.os.vms where everyone likely has access to at least a VMS
> machine or they would not be on here.

I don't have easy access to a VMS machine (anywhere). I could spin spin
up an emulator or I could try contemporary OpenVMS from VSI in a VM.

But I believe it's possible to participate in the community, learn
about, and enjoy VMS without access to a VMS machine. -- That being
said, it's yet another way that I'm in the minority.

I think that most in the comp.os.vms newsgroup could relatively easily
have access to a VMS system if they wanted to.

--
Grant. . . .

On 06/12/2023 15:09, Chris Townley wrote:
> On 06/12/2023 14:26, John Reagan wrote:
>> On 12/6/2023 9:00 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> David Wade  <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Its hard for any one who does not own, or perhaps use on a regular
>>>> basis
>>>> a "real" computer of their own, so only own a Tablet or Phone but have
>>>> access to a locked down real computer for work, and I think there are
>>>> more of those these days.
>>>
>>> I cannot imagine trying to use Google Groups from such a horrible
>>> interface
>>> either.
>>>
>>> And while this may be relevant to Usenet as a whole, it would not
>>> seem to be
>>> relevant to comp.os.vms where everyone likely has access to at least
>>> a VMS
>>> machine or they would not be on here.
>>> --scott
>>>
>> I use(d) Google Groups.  Not because I'm lazy, not because I don't
>> know better, not because I'm a Google fan-guy.  It was easy to point a
>> browser to it on my phone and skim the discussions.  I was unable to
>> reply from my phone, but it prompted me to walk to my computer and
>> contribute to the group.
>>
>> With the Thai spam flood, I have switched to i2pn2.org and
>> Thunderbird. Yeah, I know I've triggered the keyboard jackals to start
>> complaining now about Thunderbird and that interface. Whatever.
>>
>> I read the VSI forums more than I read here so if you want to get my
>> attention, post over there.
>>
>> John
>
> There are a few usenet readers on Google Play store. I haven't tried
> them, as I am normally on a PC or a laptop. I just searched for "news
> group reader app"
>
I think the search results do not reflect reality.
I think the thread at :-

https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/WUX6T9ADy60

which says :-

-It's too easy to test freeware newsgroup readers on Android because
-there are no good ones, and the bad ones fail in seconds.
- -a. Groundhog fails every single time, because it crashes on me.
-b. News Commander fails instantly because it turns out not to be
- freeware.
-c. PhoNews takes slightly longer to fail, because the freeware can't
- post.
-d. Usenet Reader takes slightly longer because you can only post to
- 1 ng.
-e. So, you're left with Newsgroup Reader, as the only working freeware.
- -While the Newsgroup Reader interface stinks, it's really the only one
-out there that is freeware, and that can post to multiple newsgroups.

is nearer the truth. Most won't even install on my Samsung s10+. The
only one which does PhoNews won't post.....

Dave

On 06/12/2023 14:00, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>> Its hard for any one who does not own, or perhaps use on a regular basis
>> a "real" computer of their own, so only own a Tablet or Phone but have
>> access to a locked down real computer for work, and I think there are
>> more of those these days.
>
> I cannot imagine trying to use Google Groups from such a horrible interface
> either.
>
> And while this may be relevant to Usenet as a whole, it would not seem to be
> relevant to comp.os.vms where everyone likely has access to at least a VMS
> machine or they would not be on here.

I have several Vaxen, but they are not the machines I use every day, and
they are not connected to the internet. Given the environments in which
VAX and Alpha boxes are used, I would expect there to be many in
environs where they may not be connected to the internet, and where the
end user environment on the desktop pc's is tightly controlled...

> --scott
>

Dave

On 12/6/2023 6:01 AM, David Wade wrote:

> Its hard for any one who does not own, or perhaps use on a regular basis a
> "real" computer of their own, so only own a Tablet or Phone but have access to a
> locked down real computer for work, and I think there are more of those these days.
>
> In fact many have a PC but don't use it on a regular basis. My wife is like
> that. She uses an iPad for 99% of her work. She does have access to a PC but
> tends to only use it for serious work, and its in a room we don't often use.
>
> I have searched high and low and have yet to find a decent news reader for
> Android or IOS as I too would like to ditch my Laptop, which is heavy and has
> short battery life, for a 12" Android Tablet...
>
> ... you might say "we don't want those sorts on usenet" but if thats the case
> then USENET is pretty much doomed.
>
> Dave

To each whatever they feel comfortable with ...

I have an Android phone. I don't like it. But a phone is rather necessary.

I also have a 10 inch Android tablet. I like what it can do, when it does it.
What I don't like is that I'm never sure what it's doing, and I don't have a
clue on how to figure out what it is doing. It's main job right now is reading
Kindle books.

Over all I don't like Android. Nor do I know much about it, so perhaps some
fault is mine.

I do have multiple WEENDOZE PCs, VAXs, Alphas, even an itanic. They all seem
much more understandable to me. YMMV. E-mail, c.o.v, and such ahppen on the
WEENDOZE XP PC.

I feel that Android could be a lot better, but, that just may be me, not
everyone. My next Kindle reader will most likely be a WEENDOZE notebook.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 12/6/2023 9:00 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> And while this may be relevant to Usenet as a whole, it would not seem to be
> relevant to comp.os.vms where everyone likely has access to at least a VMS
> machine or they would not be on here.

I suspect that there some c.o.v. users that do not currently
have access to a VMS system, but are here because they once
had.

Arne

In article <ukqm7t$tggt$1@dont-email.me>,
Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>On 12/6/2023 9:00 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> And while this may be relevant to Usenet as a whole, it would not seem to be
>> relevant to comp.os.vms where everyone likely has access to at least a VMS
>> machine or they would not be on here.
>
>I suspect that there some c.o.v. users that do not currently
>have access to a VMS system, but are here because they once
>had.

It seems like the barrier to entry for getting an account on
Eisner is pretty low, for those that are interested. This
newsgroup, perhaps by way of INFO-VAX, is gatewayed into VAX
notes there (though I don't know if the inverse is also true).

Whether that's at all convenient for people connecting from
phones or tablets is an entirely different matter.

- Dan C.

Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
> It seems like the barrier to entry for getting an account on
> Eisner is pretty low, for those that are interested. This
> newsgroup, perhaps by way of INFO-VAX, is gatewayed into VAX
> notes there (though I don't know if the inverse is also true).
>
> Whether that's at all convenient for people connecting from
> phones or tablets is an entirely different matter.

One of the "subscribers" to the Info-VAX mailing list is an email address
on Decuserve that is the gateway to VAX notes there. It's not a two-way
gateway.

BTW, I currently don't use VMS, but I'm still interested in it, besides
running the Info-VAX mailing list.

I wonder whether it will ever be possible to run VMS under WSL2 on Windows
like I run Ubuntu. I do almost all my Drupal development on an instance of
Ubuntu that runs under WSL2.

Ken Robinson

On 12/6/23 3:45 PM, Ken Robinson wrote:

> I wonder whether it will ever be possible to run VMS under WSL2 on Windows
> like I run Ubuntu. I do almost all my Drupal development on an instance of
> Ubuntu that runs under WSL2.

My understanding of WSL2 is that it is just an Ubuntu instance running
under Hyper-V with some integrations to allow local file access (though
slower than WSL1 at that). There have been mentions of possibly
supporting OpenVMS x86 on Hyper-V at some point. I don't know the state
of that.

On 12/6/2023 4:45 PM, Ken Robinson wrote:
> I wonder whether it will ever be possible to run VMS under WSL2 on Windows
> like I run Ubuntu. I do almost all my Drupal development on an instance of
> Ubuntu that runs under WSL2.

Technically I cannot see any reason why it would not be possible. But
it will not happen for business reasons.

VSI will likely add support for VMS on Hyper-V.

But Microsoft does the have any financial incentive to do the
significant effort required to create a WSV (Windows Subsystem
for VMS). The number of VMS developers is too small.

Arne

On 12/6/2023 5:07 PM, Craig A. Berry wrote:
> On 12/6/23 3:45 PM, Ken Robinson wrote:
>> I wonder whether it will ever be possible to run VMS under WSL2 on
>> Windows
>> like I run Ubuntu. I do almost all my Drupal development on an
>> instance of
>> Ubuntu that runs under WSL2.
>
> My understanding of WSL2 is that it is just an Ubuntu instance running
> under Hyper-V with some integrations to allow local file access (though
> slower than WSL1 at that).  There have been mentions of possibly
> supporting OpenVMS x86 on Hyper-V at some point.  I don't know the state
> of that.

WSL2 is just a VM running Linux kernel with a very nice
Windows integration .

Ubuntu is default distro, but they do support a few other
distros: Debian, Kali, OracleLinux, OpenSUSE and SLES (per
"wsl -l -o" command on my Windows system).

Arne