VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote in news:xbwpftn0pmi9$.dlg@v.nguard.lh:

> Boris <nospam@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> But, it is mysterious (to me) as to why systems running SATA drives
>> sometimes show IDE in the device manager:
>
> IDE = Integrated Drive Electronics (controller on the drive instead of
> on the mobo or daughtercard).
> SATA = Serial ATA = Serial Advanced Technology Attachment
>
> IDE was first used, and then PATA was used to refer to IDE using flat
> cables to differentiate IDE drives that used SATA. All PATA and SATA
> are IDE; however, PATA uses 40-pin flat ribbon cables (because they
> issue parallel data) while SATA uses 7-pin wire cables for data (which
> is serialized). That's why Device Manager (devmgmt.msc) shows an "IDE
> ATA/ATAPI controllers" node listing the SATA controllers (host bus
> adapters) on the mobo.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA#IDE_and_ATA-1

So a SATA drive still has it's controller on the drive itself, and not on
the mobo?

I do remember the PATA 40-pin flat ribbon cable. If I remember, it
connected my Windows 95 and XP to a parallel HP laser printer. And maybe
my Xerox 820 (or Gateway?) to a Diablo printer.

=?UTF-8?B?Li4ud8Khw7HCp8KxwqTDsSA=?= <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote in
news:ulonrs$3cpk8$1@dont-email.me:

> Boris wrote on 12/17/23 9:36 PM:
>>> Sideline question - not related to your problem
>>> => You mentioned Photo Gallery (which version - Windows 10 did
>>> not come
>>> pre-built with Photo Gallery, that is a Windows Essentials included
>>> Program, separate installation). Windows 10 in addition to Photos,
>>> has a 'Windows Photo Viewer' program
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Years ago, I saved the offline install programs for Windows
>> Essentials 11 and 12. I installed Essentials 12, Live Mail, Photo
>> Gallery, and Movie Maker. I like that Photo Gallery shows pictures
>> in sub-folders without having to drill down to/open those subfolders.
>> I use Live Mail.
>>
>
> That's why I asked. To the folks that were email and news weaned on
> OE the release of the Live and later Windows 'Essentials' met a lot of
> resistance.

I used Eudora and then OE at home. I've always used Xnews. I can't
remember when I started using Essentials Live Mail (Vista?), but didn't
mind the change from OE.

> The OE team(and its internal successor, Vista's Windows mail)was
> disbanded years before the Live Essentials beta was released in 2007.
> - that loyal OE following never fully understood the 'Essentials
> purpose' and that seminal change was the foundation for what continues
> today[1] Granted WLM/PG/MM were not the best choice program for many,
> but it was never intended for the 'many'. It was the beginning of
> desktop to cloud integration, intended for use with a
> Live/Hotmail/MSN.com(now Microsft) accounts and for a specific and
> intended purpose.
> - Integration across programs in the Essentials suite,
> integration(sync) with SkyDrive, Live/Hotmail/MSn.com web stored
> email, contacts, calendar which made the OE crowd even more incensed.
> Throw in the telemetry collection aspect and that initial incense grew
> to irateness.
>
> [1]Essentials was a concept and vision for the future. With the
> deprecation of the Essentials product line, that didn't stop the
> initial objective which now exists today across Windows, Office,
> Contacts, Calendar, apps(iOs, Android)...but even more so across the
> entire Enterprise spectrum via Azure- which turned out to be one of
> Microsoft's largest revenue contributors(excluding Windows and Office)
> - i.e. it was never about providing a replacement for OE, but a
> vision(and an accurate one) for the future.
>
>
> I also like and use Live Photo Gallery/Movie Maker. I only use Live
> Mail b/c it is still much better than TBird and other news clients for
> Html supported and based news groups. My primary email client(since
> 1997 is Outlook).
>
> Lol...folks reading this will probably continue to raise their 15 yr
> old opinions against WLM, the cloud, telemetry...anything said, has
> already been heard.

I hear it all the time.

It's like still complaining about the
> transmission problems on an old Oldsmobile or Ford Pinto that was sold
> or put in the scrap yard(like OE was) years ago.
>
> Looking back, Photo Gallery while never the lead program(or intended
> to be) in the Essentials suite, proved to be the most long term useful
> of the entire Essentials suite.
> Even though its 'sign in' features no longer function for its design
> intent integration, it still works with OneDrive(and in Windows 11
> too)
> - just add the OneDrive folder to PG's Gallery. Then it's just a
> matter
> or placing a file(copy, move, save) etc in the OneDrive local folder
> or add a file in the OneDrive web UI and it's available in PG.
>
> Glad to hear someone still recognizing its usefulness.
>
>
>

On 12/19/2023 9:44 PM, Boris wrote:
> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote in news:xbwpftn0pmi9$.dlg@v.nguard.lh:
>
>> Boris <nospam@invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> But, it is mysterious (to me) as to why systems running SATA drives
>>> sometimes show IDE in the device manager:
>>
>> IDE = Integrated Drive Electronics (controller on the drive instead of
>> on the mobo or daughtercard).
>> SATA = Serial ATA = Serial Advanced Technology Attachment
>>
>> IDE was first used, and then PATA was used to refer to IDE using flat
>> cables to differentiate IDE drives that used SATA. All PATA and SATA
>> are IDE; however, PATA uses 40-pin flat ribbon cables (because they
>> issue parallel data) while SATA uses 7-pin wire cables for data (which
>> is serialized). That's why Device Manager (devmgmt.msc) shows an "IDE
>> ATA/ATAPI controllers" node listing the SATA controllers (host bus
>> adapters) on the mobo.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA#IDE_and_ATA-1
>
> So a SATA drive still has it's controller on the drive itself, and not on
> the mobo?
>
> I do remember the PATA 40-pin flat ribbon cable. If I remember, it
> connected my Windows 95 and XP to a parallel HP laser printer. And maybe
> my Xerox 820 (or Gateway?) to a Diablo printer.
>

The SATA and IDE drives have a processor on board. Plus a motor
controller with a three phase output for the spindle motor.
What we called the "cache RAM" on some of those things,
some of the RAM was used by the processor. IBM uses one megabyte
of RAM on their design, for the remapping table for spared sectors.

The processor loads a small firmware (on the controller). For example,
on my dead Maxtor, the firmware ways it is a "Falcon" and it is "10GB".
Even though the drive has four platters and is 40GB (before it died).

The firmware spins up the platter, loads the heads, and then reads...
more firmware off the platter. Maybe a couple megabytes of firmware
are stored on the platter. On my Maxtor, once that code is loaded,
the drive changes its name and declares it is a 40GB drive (because
now it realizes it has four platters and head-switching).

The ATA command set allows:
1) Accepting new firmware, which is stored in RAM, and used
for the current session only.
2) Accepting new firmware, and transferring it to the platter for next time.

The firmware contains a "command parser". The ATA command set. It translates
a request, into voice coil voltages, and attempts to read or write.

It's not the same as early storage devices, which tended to have
dumber mechanical controls. The drives did not have SMART back then,
the CRC, I don't know who worked that out. A floppy is an example of a
dumb mechanical device, and some of the very first consumer hard
drives, shared a lot with the floppy design. (The heads moved in and
out on a stepper, the tracks would need to be pretty sloppy/wide to work.)

*******

On drives around 20 years ago, if the controller board on the
drive fried, you could buy and swap a new controller (processor) board.
The drive would "just work" with a good controller board. Could be
a swap off a used drive. Ebay might be a source of drives.

On really modern drives, if the controller fries, you have to
un-solder a ROM, and transfer the ROM to a new controller board.
There is specific metadata stored in the ROM, that accompanies
the platters. The drive will most likely not work (your data
might not be recoverable), without the ROM. It is possible the
current version contains FDE (Full Drive Encryption info), but
slightly older drives needing a ROM swap, it might not be
something FDE related. In any case, if you're ever in a situation
where you're swapping the PCB on a rotating hard drive, keep the
old controller board until you've preserved the ROM. There are
several chips that look like ROMs, so you have some fun ahead.

At one time, the only way to get a controller, was a swap from
a duff drive (something off Ebay perhaps). In the last several years,
there appear to be controller boards for sale as new items. I do not
know how or why, the processor chips with the nine digit custom
part number on top, are being acquired by some other firm. If you cannot
find a duff drive for a swap, then a brand new controller may be
available. Still needs the ROM swap.

Paul

On 12/19/2023 9:18 PM, Boris wrote:
> =?UTF-8?B?Li4ud8Khw7HCp8KxwqTDsSA=?= <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:ulm81a$2r0rl$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> Boris wrote on 12/16/23 9:18 PM:
>>> =?UTF-8?B?Li4ud8Khw7HCp8KxwqTDsSA=?= <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote in
>>> news:ullncl$2oo6v$1@dont-email.me:
>>>
>>>> Boris wrote on 12/16/23 5:33 PM:
>>>>> =?UTF-8?B?Li4ud8Khw7HCp8KxwqTDsSA=?= <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> in news:uli2gn$2089t$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Boris wrote on 12/14/23 9:54 PM:
>>>>>>> I've been trying to solve 100% disk usage on this machine for a
>>>>>>> while, now:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dell Inspiron 5559
>>>>>>> Windows 10 HP x64, OEM installed, fully updated, 22H2, 5/18/2016
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It takes at least 15 minutes to settle down and become useful
>>>>>>> after a clean boot, and takes about 5 minutes to shutdown. Once
>>>>>>> up and running, it takes around a minute or so for a program to
>>>>>>> launch after clicked upon. If I want to open a picture, for
>>>>>>> instance, the program (i.e. Photos, Photo Gallery) takes about a
>>>>>>> minute to open. Same with FireFox. After they are first launched,
>>>>>>> the respond normally for the rest of my session.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a minimal amount of programs that launch at startup.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ethernet send/receive are almost non-existent at startup. Memory
>>>>>>> and CPU seem low.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I tried many suggested fixes months ago, with no luck. Before I
>>>>>>> do somthing more drastic that requires re-installation of the OS
>>>>>>> and updates or all programs, I thougt I'd try again to see what
>>>>>>> else I could find that may fix this problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I went here:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.kapilarya.com/fix-windows-10-100-percent-disk-usage-pr
>>>>>>> ob le m
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But it turns out my system doesn't include IDE ATA/ATAPI
>>>>>>> controllers, it only contains Standard SATA AHCI Controller.
>>>>>>> Nonetheless, burrowing down shows nothing similar to what's
>>>>>>> shown. Neither does the registry.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Next, going to:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/100-disk-usa
>>>>>>> ge -o n- windows-10/17e3aa7e-4a2a-4927-97bd-bdb2f7dbe04b
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> sfc /scannow found "Windows Resource Protection found corrupt
>>>>>>> files and successfully repaired them. For online repairs,
>>>>>>> details are included in the CBS log file located at
>>>>>>> windir\logs\CBS\CBS.log. For example C:
>>>>>>> \Windows\Logs\CBS\CBS.log. For offline repairs, details are
>>>>>>> included in the log fimle provided by the /OFFLOGFILE flag."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Per the instructions, I next ran:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> dism /online /cleanup-image /checkhealth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Response was, "No component store corruption was found.
>>>>>>> The operation completed successfully."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Per instructions, I next ran:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> dism /online /cleanup-image /scanhealt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Response was, ""No component store corruption was found.
>>>>>>> The operation completed successfully."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was about to run the next suggested command, "dism /online
>>>>>>> /cleanup- image /restorehealth"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But, I first researched the difference between checkhealth and
>>>>>>> scanhealth, and it seemed to me that checkhealth was not needed
>>>>>>> as checkhealth finds 'repairable' files, while scanhealth checks
>>>>>>> and fixes corrupt files. Is checkhealth really needed? Or is it
>>>>>>> needed because it identifies corrupt files, and places them
>>>>>>> somewhere where they can be acted upon?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, I'm going to continue on with the rest of the suggested
>>>>>>> plan to 'fix' this 100% disk usage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, if you have any other suggestions as how to diagnose/fix
>>>>>>> 100% disk usage, that would be appreciated. I just don't want to
>>>>>>> have to re- install the OS. Main reason...I may have to get a
>>>>>>> MSFT account to do so.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TIA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Might be worth it to:
>>>>>> a. include actual device specs(fyi one of the the Dell 5559 models
>>>>>> released/built/shipped was 4GB RAM with 1 TB HD, i5 Intel chip).
>>>>>> Note: The i5 would normally be sufficient for Win10.
>>>>>> b.Create a new Local Windows account with admin rights, then
>>>>>> retest opening programs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With respect to Scanhealth, Checkhealth
>>>>>> - Neither 'fix' anything, only providing a status of the
>>>>>> existing
>>>>>> image. The former only checks for corruption of the Windows image,
>>>>>> the latter also diagnostic, performs a more advanced scan to
>>>>>> determine if the image has an issue worthy of being repaired.
>>>>>> => Unlike the DISM's RestoreHealth which repairs a image.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Design intent is to run these three DISM commands in order
>>>>>> ScanHealth, Checkhealth and RestoreHealth
>>>>>> The latter is usually and only necessary when the first two report
>>>>>> a need to do so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Other DISM commands are available
>>>>>> DISM /Online /Cleanup-Image /AnalyzeComponentStore
>>>>>> DISM /Online /Cleanup-Image /StartComponentCleanup
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The first is diagnostic related(just reports, no fixing), the
>>>>>> latter cleans up the component store.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I ran the last DISM command in the instructions, RestoreHealth, and
>>>>> rebooted. No change, still slow to boot and settle down.
>>>>>
>>>>> Still following the instructions, I checked for updates, and there
>>>>> were two Security Intelligence Updates for Microsoft Defender
>>>>> Antivirus. Both installed successfully.
>>>>>
>>>>> Restart, and disable Microsoft Defender. suggested by VanguardLH.
>>>>> No change
>>>>>
>>>>> Next, I hid all Microsoft services, disabled the rest, and
>>>>> rebooted. There was a significant reduction in load up time, which
>>>>> included the painting of all desktop and task bar icons. And, disk
>>>>> activity settled down to 0 to 10 percent activity noticeably
>>>>> quicker. (Occassionally, it went up to 20 to 30 percent. I guess
>>>>> that's what Paul talks about, Windows is always doing something.)
>>>>>
>>>>> But, Programs still take a long time to start up when first
>>>>> launched.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've started on Paul's suggestions, but I think I'll first
>>>>> re-enable all programs in the System Configurations Startup tab.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Run in an Admin Command or Powershell window
>>>>
>>>> DISM /Online /Cleanup-Image /AnalyzeComponentStore
>>>>
>>>> - the above will report the status of the component store, and
>>>> may show
>>>> that a cleanup of the store is necessary. Disregard that info and
>>>> run the following:
>>>>
>>>> DISM /Online /Cleanup-Image /StartComponentCleanup
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Fyi...it would still be worthwhile to create another Local Windows
>>>> logon account(in an existing admin account), them configure the new
>>>> account as an admin account. Ensure you remember the password when
>>>> creating the new account(its only temporary, and can be removed
>>>> later). Logon to the new account to finish setup or the user profile
>>>> for that new logon, and test loading/opening programs.
>>>> - if you notice a significant difference, report the results...if
>>>> you
>>>> don't see a difference in the new logon profile, its unlikely there
>>>> is a profile issue(i.e. your condition is something else, and
>>>> possibly not even Windows related).
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I had planned to create another Local Windows logon...just
>>> hadn't gotten to it yet.
>>>
>>> When I go to Settings>Accounts>Your info, I see
>>> My Name
>>> Local Account
>>> Administrator
>>>
>>> I don't see anywhere there to create another Local Windows logon.
>>>
>>> I suspect there's another "real, top level" Administrator account,
>>> but I don't know how to get there. Is that where you are suggesting
>>> to create another Local Windows logon?
>>>
>>> Sorry for so many simple questions.
>>>
>> Account creation for a Local account can be done by navigation from
>> multiple places from an existing Admin account
>> 'Control Panel/User Accounts/Manage Accounts/Add new user in PC
>> Settings' or
>> Go/Navigate to the same location to add an account
>> Settings/Accounts/Other Users/Add Account
>> - Select/Click 'I dont have this persons sign in information'
>> - Select/Click 'Add a user without a Microsoft account'
>> => Enter Username and Password
>> Once the account is created go back to Accounts/User Accounts, select
>> the new account and use the 'Change account' option to change it to an
>> admin account.
>> Logoff the current admin account that created the account, restart and
>> select the new Local admin account. enter the password...Windows will
>> fnish creating the logon account, issue a Welcome or similar command
>> while it's building the folder structure and finally display the
>> desktop for the new account.
>> => At that point you can then navigate to different installed
>> programs
>> and see if the new account makes a difference in time to open
>> programs, Disk usage %, CPU usage, etc.
>> - i.e. what you are doing is comparing one account's vs the
>> possible
>> problem account.
>>
>
> Thanks for the instructions.
>
> Looks like no matter what identity (account profile) I use, results are
> the same. Sloooooow.
>
> I created another local administrator account, "Tester". So now I have
> two local administrator accounts. Tester was excrutiatingly slow to load
> the OS and eventually paint the desktop. Tester did not have all
> programs that Boris had, but all those that I tried on Tester acted that
> same as if I'd launched them from Boris's account...slow to launch.
> Also, the disk drive took so long to settle down from 100%, that I gave
> up.

Boris <Boris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Boris <nospam@invalid.com> wrote in
> news:XnsB0DCD005A1E72nospaminvalidcom@135.181.20.170:
>
>> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote in news:16f9t4phjjvjk.dlg@v.nguard.lh:
>>
>>> Boris <nospam@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> =?UTF-8?B?Li4ud8Khw7HCp8KxwqTDsSA=?= <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>> news:uli2gn$2089t$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>
>>>>> Boris wrote on 12/14/23 9:54 PM:
>>>>>> I've been trying to solve 100% disk usage on this machine for a
>>>>>> while, now:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dell Inspiron 5559
>>>>>> Windows 10 HP x64, OEM installed, fully updated, 22H2, 5/18/2016
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It takes at least 15 minutes to settle down and become useful
>>>>>> after a clean boot, and takes about 5 minutes to shutdown. Once
>>>>>> up and running, it takes around a minute or so for a program to
>>>>>> launch after clicked upon. If I want to open a picture, for
>>>>>> instance, the program (i.e. Photos, Photo Gallery) takes about a
>>>>>> minute to open. Same with FireFox. After they are first launched,
>>>>>> the respond normally for the rest of my session.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a minimal amount of programs that launch at startup.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ethernet send/receive are almost non-existent at startup. Memory
>>>>>> and CPU seem low.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I tried many suggested fixes months ago, with no luck. Before I
>>>>>> do somthing more drastic that requires re-installation of the OS
>>>>>> and updates or all programs, I thougt I'd try again to see what
>>>>>> else I could find that may fix this problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I went here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.kapilarya.com/fix-windows-10-100-percent-disk-usage-pro
>>>>>> b le m
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But it turns out my system doesn't include IDE ATA/ATAPI
>>>>>> controllers, it only contains Standard SATA AHCI Controller.
>>>>>> Nonetheless, burrowing down shows nothing similar to what's shown.
>>>>>> Neither does the registry.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Next, going to:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/100-disk-usag
>>>>>> e -o n- windows-10/17e3aa7e-4a2a-4927-97bd-bdb2f7dbe04b
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sfc /scannow found "Windows Resource Protection found corrupt
>>>>>> files and successfully repaired them. For online repairs, details
>>>>>> are included in the CBS log file located at
>>>>>> windir\logs\CBS\CBS.log. For example C: \Windows\Logs\CBS\CBS.log.
>>>>>> For offline repairs, details are included in the log fimle
>>>>>> provided by the /OFFLOGFILE flag."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Per the instructions, I next ran:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> dism /online /cleanup-image /checkhealth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Response was, "No component store corruption was found.
>>>>>> The operation completed successfully."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Per instructions, I next ran:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> dism /online /cleanup-image /scanhealt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Response was, ""No component store corruption was found.
>>>>>> The operation completed successfully."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was about to run the next suggested command, "dism /online
>>>>>> /cleanup- image /restorehealth"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But, I first researched the difference between checkhealth and
>>>>>> scanhealth, and it seemed to me that checkhealth was not needed as
>>>>>> checkhealth finds 'repairable' files, while scanhealth checks and
>>>>>> fixes corrupt files. Is checkhealth really needed? Or is it
>>>>>> needed because it identifies corrupt files, and places them
>>>>>> somewhere where they can be acted upon?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, I'm going to continue on with the rest of the suggested
>>>>>> plan to 'fix' this 100% disk usage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, if you have any other suggestions as how to diagnose/fix
>>>>>> 100% disk usage, that would be appreciated. I just don't want to
>>>>>> have to re- install the OS. Main reason...I may have to get a
>>>>>> MSFT account to do so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TIA
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Might be worth it to:
>>>>> a. include actual device specs(fyi one of the the Dell 5559 models
>>>>> released/built/shipped was 4GB RAM with 1 TB HD, i5 Intel chip).
>>>>> Note: The i5 would normally be sufficient for Win10.
>>>>> b.Create a new Local Windows account with admin rights, then retest
>>>>> opening programs.
>>>>>
>>>>> With respect to Scanhealth, Checkhealth
>>>>> - Neither 'fix' anything, only providing a status of the existing
>>>>> image. The former only checks for corruption of the Windows image,
>>>>> the latter also diagnostic, performs a more advanced scan to
>>>>> determine if the image has an issue worthy of being repaired.
>>>>> => Unlike the DISM's RestoreHealth which repairs a image.
>>>>>
>>>>> Design intent is to run these three DISM commands in order
>>>>> ScanHealth, Checkhealth and RestoreHealth
>>>>> The latter is usually and only necessary when the first two report
>>>>> a need to do so.
>>>>>
>>>>> Other DISM commands are available
>>>>> DISM /Online /Cleanup-Image /AnalyzeComponentStore
>>>>> DISM /Online /Cleanup-Image /StartComponentCleanup
>>>>>
>>>>> The first is diagnostic related(just reports, no fixing), the
>>>>> latter cleans up the component store.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I ran the last DISM command in the instructions, RestoreHealth, and
>>>> rebooted. No change, still slow to boot and settle down.
>>>>
>>>> Still following the instructions, I checked for updates, and there
>>>> were two Security Intelligence Updates for Microsoft Defender
>>>> Antivirus. Both installed successfully.
>>>>
>>>> Restart, and disable Microsoft Defender. suggested by VanguardLH.
>>>> No change
>>>>
>>>> Next, I hid all Microsoft services, disabled the rest, and rebooted.
>>>> There was a significant reduction in load up time, which included
>>>> the painting of all desktop and task bar icons. And, disk activity
>>>> settled down to 0 to 10 percent activity noticeably quicker.
>>>> (Occassionally, it went up to 20 to 30 percent. I guess that's what
>>>> Paul talks about, Windows is always doing something.)
>>>>
>>>> But, Programs still take a long time to start up when first
>>>> launched.
>>>>
>>>> I've started on Paul's suggestions, but I think I'll first re-enable
>>>> all programs in the System Configurations Startup tab.
>>>
>>> Did you disable the Windows Indexing service, too?
>>>
>>> If that helps, whether or not you reenable the service depends on
>>> whether or not you ever use it. I don't. Instead I use [Search]
>>> Everything from voidtools. It also has an indexing service, but
>>> doesn't seem to impact the file system as much.
>>>
>>
>> Ahhh...hadn't thought of that or done that. I just now disabled it.
>>
>> I will have to reboot and see the effects tomorrow morning.
>>
>> I don't use Windows indexing. Way too slow. I also use Everything,
>> amazingly fast.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>
> I forgot to reply that disabling Windows indexing made no difference.
> (I also left it disabled.)

Boris <Boris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Looks like no matter what identity (account profile) I use, results are
> the same. Sloooooow.

How old the HDD? If there has been lots of bad sectors found that got
remapped to recovery sectory on the platters, the remapping will slow
down access. The OS will try to access files, but get the seek remapped
to the recovery sectors, and remapping involves redirection that takes
time.

Also, the HDD will retry operations about 3 times. The OS will retry
operations about 5 times. So, for iffy sectors that occasionally have
read errors, there will 15 retries, or more, and all those retries take
time. Have you yet ran "chkdsk /r" in an admin command shell? Alas,
chkdsk will consider a sector okay if one of the 15 retries succeeds.
You need a drive tester that inspects all sectors (GRC Spinrite, HDD
Regenerator, both have a 30-day guarantee: if you find it doesn't fix
your HDD, you can get a refund). The good tools cost money, so they're
really for admins or techs that want to add them to their software
toolbox. I've heard of, but not used, TestDisk which is free. The HDD
makers also have their own test tools (e.g., Seagate Seatools, Western
Digital Lifeguard).

For end users, probably simpler and cheaper than pay for Spinrite, HDD
Regenerator, or other professional-grade payware is to clone the suspect
drive to a new drive, and go foward with the new drive.

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

> Boris <Boris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Looks like no matter what identity (account profile) I use, results are
>> the same. Sloooooow.
>
> How old the HDD? If there has been lots of bad sectors found that got
> remapped to recovery sectory on the platters, the remapping will slow
> down access. The OS will try to access files, but get the seek remapped
> to the recovery sectors, and remapping involves redirection that takes
> time.
>
> Also, the HDD will retry operations about 3 times. The OS will retry
> operations about 5 times. So, for iffy sectors that occasionally have
> read errors, there will 15 retries, or more, and all those retries take
> time. Have you yet ran "chkdsk /r" in an admin command shell? Alas,
> chkdsk will consider a sector okay if one of the 15 retries succeeds.
> You need a drive tester that inspects all sectors (GRC Spinrite, HDD
> Regenerator, both have a 30-day guarantee: if you find it doesn't fix
> your HDD, you can get a refund). The good tools cost money, so they're
> really for admins or techs that want to add them to their software
> toolbox. I've heard of, but not used, TestDisk which is free. The HDD
> makers also have their own test tools (e.g., Seagate Seatools, Western
> Digital Lifeguard).
>
> For end users, probably simpler and cheaper than pay for Spinrite, HDD
> Regenerator, or other professional-grade payware is to clone the suspect
> drive to a new drive, and go foward with the new drive.

Oh, in addition, you might want to test the performance of your HDD. It
can show if your brand and model of HDD is significantly slow (in the
config on your mobo).

https://www.hdtune.com/download.html

That's a matrix of what features are missing in the free version versus
the Pro paid version. The free version just does read performance
testing. If you get the paid version, be damn careful to not select a
destructive write test. Save an image backup before performing any
write tests. The free version has full features for its 15-day trial,
so you can do the write tests for a short time. Users can upload their
benchmarks, so you can compare yours against others. They have a table
of different brands and models, so see if they list yours, or one that
is very close. However, the mobo and other components in their build
are often different than your own.

In article <1lh3ll89ukdi9.dlg@v.nguard.lh>, VanguardLH wrote...
>
> Boris <Boris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
....
> ... I've heard of, but not used, TestDisk which is free. The HDD
> makers also have their own test tools (e.g., Seagate Seatools, Western
> Digital Lifeguard).
>

TestDisk isn't really a testing utility but one to recover data, which it does
remarkably well! I've used it a number of times.

https://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk

--

Phil, London

On 12/19/2023 11:48 PM, VanguardLH wrote:

> I've heard of, but not used, TestDisk which is free. The HDD
> makers also have their own test tools (e.g., Seagate Seatools, Western
> Digital Lifeguard).

TestDisk will regenerate a partition table for you.

For example, an OS installer once, deleted the partitions on my
disk, by apparently overwriting the MBR. A run with TestDisk,
created an MBR replacement with a partition table. And it does that,
by scanning and looking for file system headers.

However, in terms of "batting average", it is not 100% successful
all that often. I've had it propose overlapping partitions.
Or, propose too many partitions (more partitions than really
exist on the disk).

It requires of the operator, that the operator already have a
really good idea how many partitions are there.

TestDisk can also list the contents of hidden volumes.

But in Windows, for stuff like a 0x27, you can "assign a letter"
to a partition using diskpart.exe, the assignment is temporary,
and it gives you access to the contents. After a reboot,
the letters assigned, are gone (and the partition is hidden, as before).

[Picture] Assign a letter to a hidden partition, using diskpart.exe. Even works for ESP partition.

https://i.postimg.cc/yWCCdHB9/diskpart-assign-letter-K.gif

Notice that the Disk Management window, does not "get" the K: information,
only File Explorer seems to know.

Paul

Boris wrote on 12/19/23 7:18 PM:
> <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:ulm81a$2r0rl$1@dont-email.me:
>> Account creation for a Local account can be done by navigation from
>> multiple places from an existing Admin account
>> 'Control Panel/User Accounts/Manage Accounts/Add new user in PC
>> Settings' or
>> Go/Navigate to the same location to add an account
>> Settings/Accounts/Other Users/Add Account
>> - Select/Click 'I dont have this persons sign in information'
>> - Select/Click 'Add a user without a Microsoft account'
>> => Enter Username and Password
>> Once the account is created go back to Accounts/User Accounts, select
>> the new account and use the 'Change account' option to change it to an
>> admin account.
>> Logoff the current admin account that created the account, restart and
>> select the new Local admin account. enter the password...Windows will
>> fnish creating the logon account, issue a Welcome or similar command
>> while it's building the folder structure and finally display the
>> desktop for the new account.
>> => At that point you can then navigate to different installed
>> programs
>> and see if the new account makes a difference in time to open
>> programs, Disk usage %, CPU usage, etc.
>> - i.e. what you are doing is comparing one account's vs the
>> possible
>> problem account.
>>
>
> Thanks for the instructions.
>
> Looks like no matter what identity (account profile) I use, results are
> the same. Sloooooow.
>
> I created another local administrator account, "Tester". So now I have
> two local administrator accounts. Tester was excrutiatingly slow to load
> the OS and eventually paint the desktop. Tester did not have all
> programs that Boris had, but all those that I tried on Tester acted that
> same as if I'd launched them from Boris's account...slow to launch.
> Also, the disk drive took so long to settle down from 100%, that I gave
> up.
>
>
>
Thanks for the update and the willingness to test another profile.
Your results indicate it's not unique to a given windows logon profile,
thus an existing limit - not image related(if you ran *all* the DISM
commands to ensure the image and component store were addressed) - or
bottleneck associated with the hardware, software, o/s and their
associated services and performances.

Some suggestions(Paul, Vanguard) are trickling in now that more
information has been provided by you...but more info may be necessary
suggest other possible recommendations or direction.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
[...]

> Paul mentioned using Perfmon, and Andy mentioned using Resource Monitor.
> Another tool is SysInternals Procmon. Those can help show what is
> generating lots of drive traffic.

Indeed! Especially running Resource Monitor and looking at the Disk
Activity and Storage (what is the Disk Queue length?) sections, should
give some clue as to what the disk is doing.

AFAICT, Boris has not looked at this. It would be the first place
where I would look.

[...]

On 12/20/2023 10:50 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
> [...]
>
>> Paul mentioned using Perfmon, and Andy mentioned using Resource Monitor.
>> Another tool is SysInternals Procmon. Those can help show what is
>> generating lots of drive traffic.
>
> Indeed! Especially running Resource Monitor and looking at the Disk
> Activity and Storage (what is the Disk Queue length?) sections, should
> give some clue as to what the disk is doing.
>
> AFAICT, Boris has not looked at this. It would be the first place
> where I would look.
>
> [...]
>

None of the instrumentation is perfect.

You know, one day, my processor was railed on two or three cores.
What did Task Manager say ?

System Idle 99
xxx 00 \
yyy 00 \___ All the other programs read "00"
zzz 00 /

In other words, a detailed list of consumption revealed "nothing"
was using cycles. Yet, the CPU panes showed three cores railed.

Process Explorer from Sysinternals, includes some digits after the decimal,
and for some reason, seems to be able to list what is going on.

Paul

Paul wrote:

> None of the instrumentation is perfect.
>
> You know, one day, my processor was railed on two or three cores.
> What did Task Manager say ?
>
> System Idle 99
> xxx 00 \
> yyy 00 \___ All the other programs read "00"
> zzz 00 /
>
> In other words, a detailed list of consumption revealed "nothing"
> was using cycles. Yet, the CPU panes showed three cores railed.
>
> Process Explorer from Sysinternals, includes some digits after the decimal,

I regularly see Task Manager showing CPU usage over 10%
while Process Explorer says it's under 1%

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> On 12/20/2023 10:50 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> >> Paul mentioned using Perfmon, and Andy mentioned using Resource Monitor.
> >> Another tool is SysInternals Procmon. Those can help show what is
> >> generating lots of drive traffic.
> >
> > Indeed! Especially running Resource Monitor and looking at the Disk
> > Activity and Storage (what is the Disk Queue length?) sections, should
> > give some clue as to what the disk is doing.
> >
> > AFAICT, Boris has not looked at this. It would be the first place
> > where I would look.
> >
> > [...]
>
> None of the instrumentation is perfect.

Of course, nothing is perfect.

> You know, one day, my processor was railed on two or three cores.
> What did Task Manager say ?
>
> System Idle 99
> xxx 00 \
> yyy 00 \___ All the other programs read "00"
> zzz 00 /
>
> In other words, a detailed list of consumption revealed "nothing"
> was using cycles. Yet, the CPU panes showed three cores railed.
>
> Process Explorer from Sysinternals, includes some digits after the decimal,
> and for some reason, seems to be able to list what is going on.

But Boris' problem is disk I/O bound, not CPU bound, so I don't see
how this is relevant or helping him.

(BTW, Resource Monitor also shows Average CPU usage with two digits
after the decimal point.)

On 12/21/2023 8:02 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

>
> But Boris' problem is disk I/O bound, not CPU bound, so I don't see
> how this is relevant or helping him.

We're not getting any real information to work with
at the moment, so most of this is wheel-spin.

At the moment, I don't even know what era this hard drive is.
Make and model number. Or really, anything tangible. Unknown.

We need feedback to remain focused.

I have a just-awful Seagate drive, a 5900 RPM, and that
would definitely set your teeth on edge, in terms of lethargy.
It's fine as a backup drive, but it has no other usage
(can't be used as an OS drive, just awful). It's a drive
that is just not designed to seek. It's a sequential drive
(good for Macrium). But, I had to test it, and now I know.

Paul

Frank Slootweg wrote on 12/21/23 6:02 AM:
> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>> On 12/20/2023 10:50 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> Indeed! Especially running Resource Monitor and looking at the Disk
>>> Activity and Storage (what is the Disk Queue length?) sections, should
>>> give some clue as to what the disk is doing.
>>>
>>> AFAICT, Boris has not looked at this. It would be the first place
>>> where I would look.
>>>
>>> [...]
>>
>> None of the instrumentation is perfect.
>
> Of course, nothing is perfect.
>
>> You know, one day, my processor was railed on two or three cores.
>> What did Task Manager say ?
>>
>> System Idle 99
>> xxx 00 \
>> yyy 00 \___ All the other programs read "00"
>> zzz 00 /
>>
>> In other words, a detailed list of consumption revealed "nothing"
>> was using cycles. Yet, the CPU panes showed three cores railed.
>>
>> Process Explorer from Sysinternals, includes some digits after the decimal,
>> and for some reason, seems to be able to list what is going on.
>
> But Boris' problem is disk I/O bound, not CPU bound, so I don't see
> how this is relevant or helping him.
>
> (BTW, Resource Monitor also shows Average CPU usage with two digits
> after the decimal point.)
>

Hi, Frank.
It appears that Disk-I/O could be a concern or only part of(it). At
this stage(after 7 days) everything is just a guess.

Yesterday, I requested more information a few hours prior to Paul's
latest post(above, included in your reply) lacking that everything is
just a boatload of theory(try this, try that, look at this, etc.)

I was curious...so I powered up my 8 yr old Surface 3(Win10 Pro, Atom
CPU, 4 GB RAM, 128 GB drive - eMMC(NAND like SSD), 128GB SDXC), 56 GB
Used on the 128GB eMMC, 63 GB Used on the 128 GB SDXC - all data(files,
music, pictures, 3rd party program installers, and Surface drivers, and
OneDrive local synced storage) - the only significant user related data
file on the main SSD is Outlook's *.pst
Background - this device was as-shipped as Windows 8.1 Home(purchased
July 2015 a few days after Win10 initial public release[it had a $100
discount and included at no cost the leather case and the pen]. It was
upgraded to the 10 Home immediately after setting up the initial MSA and
a Local account. The Local admin was used to upgrade 'free' to Win10.
Post Win10 upgrade an 8.1 Pro Product key(key card, no media, received at
a MSFT sponsored local event) to Windows 10 Pro. Currently running Win10
Pro 22H2(Dec 2023 update), all software updated to latest version/build.
- for today's standards, the Surface 3 is a slow device spec wise and
horsepower.

Compared to Boris system times.
Power on to Windows logon screen - just shy of 20 sec
Windows logon to desktop - 15 secs(of the Welcome notice with its circle
spinning) then 5 seconds of a blank(black) screen before desktop appears
Desktop - Once the desktop loads, another range of 10-15 secs before the
Taskbar, QuickLaunch Bar and Notification icons fully appear. The last
and always last icon to appear is the Notification area's
Security/Defender icon.
- Task Manager wise, only Windows Security notification is
running(everything else disabled)

This Surface 3 device has a reasonable useful but not extensive
compliment of software
- M365 Office, iTunes, Chrome, SeaMonkey, Edge, Windows
Essentials(Photo Gallery), Adobe DC Classic, IrfanView, CCleaner, Macrium
Reflect free, Acronis True Image 2020, MBAM, and Zoom

From a resource respective on program loading - iTunes, Acronis and
Macrium take the longest, but never more than 20 sec. Office Outook 365
with multiple accts(POP, IMAP, and Exchange, 2.5GB *.PST is quick - less
than 10 sec.

Shutdown/Power Off - 25 sec from Local account, 20 sec from an MSA.

Granted this device with an old Atom chip and minimum RAM, lower
performance eMMC than an SSD - thus much better speeds for those noted
items would be not seem to be dramatically improvements with a better CPU
and more RAM. Would they be slower with an HDD instead of its eMMC disk
- probably, but not significant for the exceedingly longer times that
Boris reported.
- if I were to continue to guess, as you noted possibly Disk-I/O
related, but without more details, that's just another 'swag'.

This 8 yr old Surface 3 looks like a ram jet compared to his glider type
speeds.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

On 12/22/2023 2:17 AM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
> Frank Slootweg wrote on 12/21/23 6:02 AM:
>> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 12/20/2023 10:50 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>>>    Indeed! Especially running Resource Monitor and looking at the Disk
>>>> Activity and Storage (what is the Disk Queue length?) sections, should
>>>> give some clue as to what the disk is doing.
>>>>
>>>>    AFAICT, Boris has not looked at this. It would be the first place
>>>> where I would look.
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>
>>> None of the instrumentation is perfect.
>>
>>    Of course, nothing is perfect.
>>
>>> You know, one day, my processor was railed on two or three cores.
>>> What did Task Manager say ?
>>>
>>>     System Idle      99
>>>     xxx              00 \
>>>     yyy              00  \___ All the other programs read "00"
>>>     zzz              00  /
>>>
>>> In other words, a detailed list of consumption revealed "nothing"
>>> was using cycles. Yet, the CPU panes showed three cores railed.
>>>
>>> Process Explorer from Sysinternals, includes some digits after the decimal,
>>> and for some reason, seems to be able to list what is going on.
>>
>>    But Boris' problem is disk I/O bound, not CPU bound, so I don't see
>> how this is relevant or helping him.
>>
>>    (BTW, Resource Monitor also shows Average CPU usage with two digits
>> after the decimal point.)
>>
>
> Hi, Frank.
>  It appears that Disk-I/O could be a concern or only part of(it). At this stage(after 7 days) everything is just a guess.
>
> Yesterday, I requested more information a few hours prior to Paul's latest post(above, included in your reply) lacking that everything is just a boatload of theory(try this, try that, look at this, etc.)
>
> I was curious...so I powered up my 8 yr old Surface 3(Win10 Pro, Atom CPU, 4 GB RAM, 128 GB  drive - eMMC(NAND like SSD), 128GB SDXC), 56 GB Used on the 128GB eMMC, 63 GB Used on the 128 GB SDXC - all data(files, music, pictures, 3rd party program installers, and Surface drivers, and OneDrive local synced storage) - the only significant user related data file on the main SSD is Outlook's *.pst
>  Background - this device was as-shipped as Windows 8.1 Home(purchased July 2015 a few days after Win10 initial public release[it had a $100 discount and included at no cost the leather case and the pen]. It was upgraded to the 10 Home immediately after setting up the initial MSA and a Local account. The Local admin was used to upgrade 'free' to Win10. Post Win10 upgrade an 8.1 Pro Product key(key card, no media, received at a MSFT sponsored local event) to Windows 10 Pro. Currently running Win10 Pro 22H2(Dec 2023 update), all software updated to latest version/build.
> - for today's standards, the Surface 3 is a slow device spec wise and horsepower.
>
> Compared to Boris system times.
> Power on to Windows logon screen - just shy of 20 sec
> Windows logon to desktop - 15 secs(of the Welcome notice with its circle spinning) then 5 seconds of a blank(black) screen before desktop appears
> Desktop - Once the desktop loads, another range of 10-15 secs before the Taskbar, QuickLaunch Bar and Notification icons fully appear. The last and always last icon to appear is the Notification area's Security/Defender icon.
>  - Task Manager wise, only Windows Security notification is running(everything else disabled)
>
> This Surface 3 device has a reasonable useful but not extensive compliment of software
>  - M365 Office, iTunes, Chrome, SeaMonkey, Edge, Windows Essentials(Photo Gallery), Adobe DC Classic, IrfanView, CCleaner, Macrium Reflect free, Acronis True Image 2020, MBAM, and Zoom
>
> From a resource respective on program loading - iTunes, Acronis and Macrium take the longest, but never more than 20 sec. Office Outook 365 with multiple accts(POP, IMAP, and Exchange, 2.5GB *.PST is quick - less than 10 sec.
>
> Shutdown/Power Off - 25 sec from Local account, 20 sec from an MSA.
>
> Granted this device with an old Atom chip and minimum RAM, lower performance eMMC than an SSD - thus much better speeds for those noted items would be not seem to be dramatically improvements with a better CPU and more RAM.  Would they be slower with an HDD instead of its eMMC disk - probably, but not significant for the exceedingly longer times that Boris reported.
>  - if I were to continue to guess, as you noted possibly Disk-I/O related, but without more details, that's just another 'swag'.
>
> This 8 yr old Surface 3 looks like a ram jet compared to his glider type speeds.
>

You can use WPA. But, you have to be careful and
find a recipe on the web, to get the value from it.

If you use the defaults, it does a two hour analysis that
doesn't tell you anything.

To highlight things at startup, a boot trace can be used.

xbootmgr -trace boot -traceFlags BASE+CSWITCH+DRIVERS+POWER -resultPath C:\TEMP

https://i.postimg.cc/25WKRmn5/wpa.gif

To get the program, the media tool allows you to tick one
box, and then the necessary downloads are only a few hundred megabytes,
instead of a large number of gigabytes (an entire ISO in the old days).

Process Monitor can also be used to collect a trace at startup.
It will start to collect information, once enough of the boot
process has completed so the subsystem needed is started.
The last time I checked, there was some sort of compatibility issue
between procmon23.dll and Windows 10. Procmon23.dll is only used for
boot traces, and regular traces in the middle of a Windows session,
do not rely on that for anything. Each time the API changes, the
staff bump the DLL number, so the next version would be Procmon24.dll .
It's hidden, so you cannot immediately see it has been injected, and
it is left there between sessions.

Paul

=?UTF-8?B?Li4ud8Khw7HCp8KxwqTDsSA=?= <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote in
news:uluksg$ht0l$1@dont-email.me:

> Boris wrote on 12/19/23 7:18 PM:
>> <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:ulm81a$2r0rl$1@dont-email.me:
>>> Account creation for a Local account can be done by navigation from
>>> multiple places from an existing Admin account
>>> 'Control Panel/User Accounts/Manage Accounts/Add new user in PC
>>> Settings' or
>>> Go/Navigate to the same location to add an account
>>> Settings/Accounts/Other Users/Add Account
>>> - Select/Click 'I dont have this persons sign in information'
>>> - Select/Click 'Add a user without a Microsoft account'
>>> => Enter Username and Password
>>> Once the account is created go back to Accounts/User Accounts,
>>> select the new account and use the 'Change account' option to change
>>> it to an admin account.
>>> Logoff the current admin account that created the account, restart
>>> and select the new Local admin account. enter the password...Windows
>>> will fnish creating the logon account, issue a Welcome or similar
>>> command while it's building the folder structure and finally display
>>> the desktop for the new account.
>>> => At that point you can then navigate to different installed
>>> programs
>>> and see if the new account makes a difference in time to open
>>> programs, Disk usage %, CPU usage, etc.
>>> - i.e. what you are doing is comparing one account's vs the
>>> possible
>>> problem account.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for the instructions.
>>
>> Looks like no matter what identity (account profile) I use, results
>> are the same. Sloooooow.
>>
>> I created another local administrator account, "Tester". So now I
>> have two local administrator accounts. Tester was excrutiatingly
>> slow to load the OS and eventually paint the desktop. Tester did not
>> have all programs that Boris had, but all those that I tried on
>> Tester acted that same as if I'd launched them from Boris's
>> account...slow to launch. Also, the disk drive took so long to settle
>> down from 100%, that I gave up.
>>
>>
>>
> Thanks for the update and the willingness to test another profile.
> Your results indicate it's not unique to a given windows logon
> profile, thus an existing limit - not image related(if you ran *all*
> the DISM commands to ensure the image and component store were
> addressed) - or bottleneck associated with the hardware, software, o/s
> and their associated services and performances.
>
> Some suggestions(Paul, Vanguard) are trickling in now that more
> information has been provided by you...but more info may be necessary
> suggest other possible recommendations or direction.
>
>

I've been away from this laptop for a while, and just got back. I see
lots of theories because I've not been able to provide specific
diagnostic information that would possibly provide better leads as to my
100% disk usage issue.

I've run ProcessMonitor, ResourceMonitor, Perfmon, and ProcessExplorer,
but I don't know how to interpret them. Making screenshots during 100%
disk usage has been difficult, because the screenshot program doesn't
like to load. More importanty, I don't know how to interpret what I see.
I'll provide (below) what I've been able to shoot while the disk is at
100% usage.

I'll give as much new information here, rather than respond separately to
all the new posts I see.

Time for machine to get to settling down from Start, 21 minutes, as
follows:

Start...press the hardware start button on the laptop
Dell logo appears
5-55 sec. (50 sec.) screen is black
55-2:50 (1 min. 55 sec.) please wait
2:50-2:55 (5 sec.) lock screen
2:55-3:20 (25 sec.) my background screen appears
3:20-3:30 (10 sec.) Boris welcome screen with spinning circle
3:30-6:00 (2 min. 30 sec.) screen is black
6:00-6:30 (30 sec.) my own desktop background appears without icons or
taskbar
6:30-9:00 (2 min. 30 sec.) desktop icons appear
9:00-9:10 (10 sec.) taskbar icons appear
at 9 1/2 minutes I go to taskmanager, and disk finally settles down at 21
minutes

Even once settled down, still takes more that a minute (or more) to
launch some programs for the first time during a session. And once the
program reacts normally, if I close it, and don't use it for a while, it
can take a long time to launch it again.

hard drive is Seagate:
https://goughlui.com/the-hard-disk-corner/seagate-st1000lm024-hn-m101mbb-
momentus-2-5-1tb-2014/

Safe mode (under Boris, not Tester) takes long to load, and while in Safe
Mode, task manager only displays CPU and memory, so can't see if disk is
100% usage, but the programs that do launch in Safe Mode do launch
normally, such as IrfanView, FastStone Image viewer, Adobe Acrobat
Reader. Some programs like VLC launch with server error, probably
checking for updates first, but there's no network connection, and
Windows Photos won't launh at all. Many programs don't appear in the
Safe Mode desktop.

This desktop has no Microsoft account.
There is no password.
Only local account.
No auto-login. Boris has to click in at welcome screen.

This laptop has no hard drive activity light.

Here's screenshots of task manager:
https://postimg.cc/gallery/LjLrYt9

Here's screenshots of ResourceMonitor:
https://postimg.cc/LhX9hFRG

Here's screenshots of Perfmon:
https://postimg.cc/gallery/2zZ34VV
(Odd that both are with disk 100%, but different graphs.)

Here's screenshots of ProcessExplorer:
https://postimg.cc/gallery/NwY7cXn

Here's screenshots of HD Tune:
https://postimg.cc/gallery/YQsz7LX

Don't know if this is of any help.

Thanks.

On 12/22/2023 6:58 PM, Boris wrote:
> =?UTF-8?B?Li4ud8Khw7HCp8KxwqTDsSA=?= <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:uluksg$ht0l$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> Boris wrote on 12/19/23 7:18 PM:
>>> <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote in
>>> news:ulm81a$2r0rl$1@dont-email.me:
>>>> Account creation for a Local account can be done by navigation from
>>>> multiple places from an existing Admin account
>>>> 'Control Panel/User Accounts/Manage Accounts/Add new user in PC
>>>> Settings' or
>>>> Go/Navigate to the same location to add an account
>>>> Settings/Accounts/Other Users/Add Account
>>>> - Select/Click 'I dont have this persons sign in information'
>>>> - Select/Click 'Add a user without a Microsoft account'
>>>> => Enter Username and Password
>>>> Once the account is created go back to Accounts/User Accounts,
>>>> select the new account and use the 'Change account' option to change
>>>> it to an admin account.
>>>> Logoff the current admin account that created the account, restart
>>>> and select the new Local admin account. enter the password...Windows
>>>> will fnish creating the logon account, issue a Welcome or similar
>>>> command while it's building the folder structure and finally display
>>>> the desktop for the new account.
>>>> => At that point you can then navigate to different installed
>>>> programs
>>>> and see if the new account makes a difference in time to open
>>>> programs, Disk usage %, CPU usage, etc.
>>>> - i.e. what you are doing is comparing one account's vs the
>>>> possible
>>>> problem account.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for the instructions.
>>>
>>> Looks like no matter what identity (account profile) I use, results
>>> are the same. Sloooooow.
>>>
>>> I created another local administrator account, "Tester". So now I
>>> have two local administrator accounts. Tester was excrutiatingly
>>> slow to load the OS and eventually paint the desktop. Tester did not
>>> have all programs that Boris had, but all those that I tried on
>>> Tester acted that same as if I'd launched them from Boris's
>>> account...slow to launch. Also, the disk drive took so long to settle
>>> down from 100%, that I gave up.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Thanks for the update and the willingness to test another profile.
>> Your results indicate it's not unique to a given windows logon
>> profile, thus an existing limit - not image related(if you ran *all*
>> the DISM commands to ensure the image and component store were
>> addressed) - or bottleneck associated with the hardware, software, o/s
>> and their associated services and performances.
>>
>> Some suggestions(Paul, Vanguard) are trickling in now that more
>> information has been provided by you...but more info may be necessary
>> suggest other possible recommendations or direction.
>>
>>
>
> I've been away from this laptop for a while, and just got back. I see
> lots of theories because I've not been able to provide specific
> diagnostic information that would possibly provide better leads as to my
> 100% disk usage issue.
>
> I've run ProcessMonitor, ResourceMonitor, Perfmon, and ProcessExplorer,
> but I don't know how to interpret them. Making screenshots during 100%
> disk usage has been difficult, because the screenshot program doesn't
> like to load. More importanty, I don't know how to interpret what I see.
> I'll provide (below) what I've been able to shoot while the disk is at
> 100% usage.
>
> I'll give as much new information here, rather than respond separately to
> all the new posts I see.
>
> Time for machine to get to settling down from Start, 21 minutes, as
> follows:
>
> Start...press the hardware start button on the laptop
> Dell logo appears
> 5-55 sec. (50 sec.) screen is black
> 55-2:50 (1 min. 55 sec.) please wait
> 2:50-2:55 (5 sec.) lock screen
> 2:55-3:20 (25 sec.) my background screen appears
> 3:20-3:30 (10 sec.) Boris welcome screen with spinning circle
> 3:30-6:00 (2 min. 30 sec.) screen is black
> 6:00-6:30 (30 sec.) my own desktop background appears without icons or
> taskbar
> 6:30-9:00 (2 min. 30 sec.) desktop icons appear
> 9:00-9:10 (10 sec.) taskbar icons appear
> at 9 1/2 minutes I go to taskmanager, and disk finally settles down at 21
> minutes
>
> Even once settled down, still takes more that a minute (or more) to
> launch some programs for the first time during a session. And once the
> program reacts normally, if I close it, and don't use it for a while, it
> can take a long time to launch it again.
>
> hard drive is Seagate:
> https://goughlui.com/the-hard-disk-corner/seagate-st1000lm024-hn-m101mbb-
> momentus-2-5-1tb-2014/
>
> Safe mode (under Boris, not Tester) takes long to load, and while in Safe
> Mode, task manager only displays CPU and memory, so can't see if disk is
> 100% usage, but the programs that do launch in Safe Mode do launch
> normally, such as IrfanView, FastStone Image viewer, Adobe Acrobat
> Reader. Some programs like VLC launch with server error, probably
> checking for updates first, but there's no network connection, and
> Windows Photos won't launh at all. Many programs don't appear in the
> Safe Mode desktop.
>
> This desktop has no Microsoft account.
> There is no password.
> Only local account.
> No auto-login. Boris has to click in at welcome screen.
>
> This laptop has no hard drive activity light.
>
> Here's screenshots of task manager:
> https://postimg.cc/gallery/LjLrYt9
>
> Here's screenshots of ResourceMonitor:
> https://postimg.cc/LhX9hFRG
>
> Here's screenshots of Perfmon:
> https://postimg.cc/gallery/2zZ34VV
> (Odd that both are with disk 100%, but different graphs.)
>
> Here's screenshots of ProcessExplorer:
> https://postimg.cc/gallery/NwY7cXn
>
> Here's screenshots of HD Tune:
> https://postimg.cc/gallery/YQsz7LX
>
> Don't know if this is of any help.
>
> Thanks.
>

Drive is 5400 RPM and started life at the Samsung plant. I would
guess Seagate acquired the Samsung drive business. 5400 RPM, SATA.
Data sheet says 145MB/sec [cough]. (A third-party bench is 120, and using
the "doubling rule", the inner-hub is 50MB/sec so the outer ring
should be 100MB/sec.) It could be a bridged drive with IDE electronics
and a IDE to SATA chip on it. The cache chip is only 16MB
and that means a static RAM, instead of DRAM used now. Static RAM
can also be slow, because a part of the industry is "frozen in time"
at 100MB/sec.

https://www.amazon.ca/Samsung-Spinpoint-ST1000LM024-Cache-3-0Gb/dp/B009BZUL6I

HDTune says 7600 power on hours, 45000 start-stop.
Reallocated sector count is 0. Nothing there hints at trouble.

The HDTune benchmark is inconclusive, because HDTune is fighting
with whatever else is consuming disk. I get the same problem here,
even after waiting an hour for stuff to quiet down.

The drive was running at 86F / 30C. Which is fine. The drive has
a small cache, so a track buffer is unlikely (a track cache helps sometimes
when wading through a sea of small files). The IOP rating of the drive,
is 58, instead of the 1500+ a modern drive with big DRAM on it gets.
The IOP on an SSD, can be faster than the OS can usefully employ.

Resource Monitor shows:

"Dell TechHub: replaces Dell Hardware Scan service and is needed to run the Hardware Scan panel"

Sample of Dell owner bloat-load in msconfig.exe services tab

https://www.dell.com/community/assets/community/687062f5-603c-4f5f-ab9d-31aa7cacb376/DellTechHubmakesDellcomputerta-521ae740-5420-41ea-8f78-73c2d158f771-1427808586.

The considered opinion here, is the drive is a dog, and an
SSD will provide relief from the agony.

https://www.dell.com/community/en/conversations/inspiron/inspiron-5559-laptop-is-very-slow-and-lags/647f7c71f4ccf8a8deac5b5a

But I would still be curious, to see what Dell software in that
set of Dell services, is making jello out of the computer. We
can't blame all of this on Windows Defender or on a third-party AV
product.

While the disk drive is "operational", it's a bit like my
Seagate 5900 that should never be used as a OS drive :-)

The chipset likely has a SATA II port, the SSD drive will be
SATA III, but, it does not matter (backward compatible) as
the improvement comes from the zero seek time of an SSD.

Boris <Boris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Start...press the hardware start button on the laptop
> Dell logo appears

Pressing the Power button on the case does not mandate a cold boot is
started. Could be the OS was put into hibernate mode. That creates an
image of memory into a file (hiberfil.sys) that gets read on Windows
startup to get back to the same state Windows was in when hibernated.
Takes time to read a file. Longer on an HDD than for an SSD.

If you put the OS into hiberate mode, the hiberfil.sys file takes time
to write a memory image into the file. When you warm start the OS out
of hibernate mode, the hiberfil.sys file gets read into memory to
restore the OS state. A slow HDD, or one with iffy sectors (takes
several reads, but succeeds before a failure threshold count), will take
longer to read files into memory. If it takes as long to cold boot as
to load from hiberfil.sys, there's not much point to hibernating unless
you want to get the OS and apps back to the same state they were in when
you shutdown, but maybe it's that state you don't want to restore.

Even if you think you are shutting down NOT in hibernate mode, maybe
you're using Fast Startup mode which is a hibernate hybrid mode.

On the Dell, a single press likely starts up from hibernate mode (since
shutdown was hibernate instead of off). Perhaps you have to press and
hold the Power button for 4 seconds, or more, to force a cold boot.
I've run into Dells where you don't get a choice. The only way to force
a cold boot of Windows is to hold down the Power button for 20 seconds,
or more, to drain residual power, and other steps to do a "hard reset"
to get a cold boot of Windows. See:

https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000130881/dell-pc-does-not-turn-on-or-boot-into-windows

Dell wants you to think their computer comes back up fast, so they use
hibernate on shutdown, and resume from hibernate on startup. A cold
boot will take longer; however, resume from hibernate has to read the
hiberfil.sys file, and that file gets written on shutdown.

I'd also disable Fast Startup. This uses a hybrid hibernate mode. All
it does it spend extra time on shutdown to make shorter the startup
time, so overall you haven't saved anything. Most users are sitting at
their computer when starting it, but many do a shutdown and walk away,
so they don't notice the longer shutdown time. It also incurs problems
with drivers on startup. The associated hardware does not get a Reset
signal from the CPU on a warm startup, so the hardware can get into an
unknown and unworking state. On startup, the hardware may not be in a
working state, and requires a cold boot to get it reset.

https://www.windowscentral.com/how-disable-windows-10-fast-startup

> 5-55 sec. (50 sec.) screen is black

Perhaps the POST screen, but may be disabled in BIOS for viewing, so it
doesn't show.

> 55-2:50 (1 min. 55 sec.) please wait
> 2:50-2:55 (5 sec.) lock screen
> 2:55-3:20 (25 sec.) my background screen appears
> 3:20-3:30 (10 sec.) Boris welcome screen with spinning circle
> 3:30-6:00 (2 min. 30 sec.) screen is black
> 6:00-6:30 (30 sec.) my own desktop background appears without icons or
> taskbar
> 6:30-9:00 (2 min. 30 sec.) desktop icons appear
> 9:00-9:10 (10 sec.) taskbar icons appear
> at 9 1/2 minutes I go to taskmanager, and disk finally settles down at 21
> minutes

Seems the time to load the OS is about 2 minutes which isn't bad. The
biggest lag is when logging into your Windows account. The time for the
HDD to "settle down" is long after Windows and your account are ready
for use.

> Even once settled down, still takes more that a minute (or more) to
> launch some programs for the first time during a session. And once the
> program reacts normally, if I close it, and don't use it for a while, it
> can take a long time to launch it again.

How much system RAM is installed in the mobo?
What is the size of the pagefile? You didn't disable it, did you?
Do you have more than 1 HDD, so the pagefile could be moved to the 2nd
drive (other than where is the OS)?

> hard drive is Seagate:
> https://goughlui.com/the-hard-disk-corner/seagate-st1000lm024-hn-m101mbb-momentus-2-5-1tb-2014/

After the HDD activity settles after startup and login, have you ever
felt the HDD to see if it is hot? There are tools to show the HDD
temperature, but they rely on sensors inside the HDD, not an external
temperature sensor. I've used HD Sentinel free, but eventually went to
the paid version. CrystalDiskInfo will also show temperature as well as
other S.M.A.R.T. values. Besides temperature, S.M.A.R.T. can show how
many remapped sectors occured (Reallocated Sectors Count). Doesn't have
to be zero, but the higher it is then the more bad sectors have been
found. If more are found than there are reserve sectors used for
reallocation, the bad sectors can no longer be mapped to good ones.
That's where you check the Current Pending Sector Count. If not zero,
there are no more reserve sectors to remap the bad ones. The count may
not be zero, but an OS restart or some idle time on the HDD should
eventually reduce the count to zero. Non-zero means no bad sector
correction.

For where the HDD is mounted, you want space around it to allow air
flow. In a drive bay with drives packed alongside each other, there is
little air flow. With wide cables or other obstructions, air flow can
be too low to cool the drive. You need air flow around the drives (of
any type), memory modules, CPU, GPU, and PSU. Anything that generates
heat needs air flow to remove the heat.

CPUs will throttle themselves when they get overly hot. The throttling
reduces the heat generated by the CPU, but also slows processing. This
is to prevent the CPU from burning up with air flow is poor, the CPU fan
slows or stops, or the heatsink isn't properly attached to the CPU (too
little, none, or too much heatsink paste, the heatsink popped off, etc).
Besides blocked air flow, fans wear out and slow down or sieze up, so
the heatsink doesn't get cooled well enough. Plus dust is a thermal
insulator, so you need to blow out the dust that accumulates inside,
like in the fins of heatsinks or exhaust ports. Desktop PCs are easier
to open to use an air can to blow out the dust while laptops require
disassembly.

Sometimes pre-built computers include CPU temp monitor software; else,
you have to get it elsewhere, like https://openhardwaremonitor.org/,
https://www.alcpu.com/CoreTemp/. Everything slow when the CPU gets
throttled to prevent overheating.

Are you overclocking at all? That ups the heat requiring better cooling
solutions. Since this is a Dell laptop, I suspect you don't get much
for options in its BIOS.

Other than a keyboard and mouse, have you disconnected all other USB
devices from the computer during Windows startup and login?

Do you have any networked drives shown in File Explorer?

> Safe mode (under Boris, not Tester) takes long to load, and while in Safe
> Mode, task manager only displays CPU and memory, so can't see if disk is
> 100% usage, but the programs that do launch in Safe Mode do launch
> normally, such as IrfanView, FastStone Image viewer, Adobe Acrobat
> Reader. Some programs like VLC launch with server error, probably
> checking for updates first, but there's no network connection, and
> Windows Photos won't launh at all. Many programs don't appear in the
> Safe Mode desktop.

Since safe mode works better, you might start looking at all the startup
programs that load when you log into your Windows account. Windows 10
removed config of startup program in msconfig. Instead you have to go
into Task Manager's Startup tab, right-click on a startup item, and
select Disable. Probably easier is to use Sysinternals AutoRuns, plus
it shows a lot more startup locations than does msconfig or Task
Manager; however, you'll probably want to stick with the simple ones
rather than say, WinLogon events, but you might want to review the
startup items in Task Scheduler (AutoRuns shows those; else, you have to
view the events defined in Task Scheduler).

> This laptop has no hard drive activity light.

I'd check the Power Options to make sure the HDD doesn't get put into
low-power mode. That stops the platters from spinning, so they have to
spin up again when anything is accessed on the HDD, and the OS is going
to make repeated and often writes to the OS partition on the drive.
Currently I have "Turn off hard disk after 60 minutes". That is long
enough that I'm not pestered with waiting for the platters to spin back
up, plus it reduces the power surge to the HDD to start the motor. That
setting is not effected on SSDs, but you have a spinner. My OS drive is
an NVMe m.2 SSD, so it doesn't go into a sleep mode, but I also have
some other HDDs inside the case. 60 minutes is long after I'm done with
any access to those HDDs. However, since yours is a laptop, you might
want a shorter interval to reduce power consumption on the battery
(unless it's not really portable, sits in the same place, and always
connected to live A/C power). This setting is independent of spinning
down the HDDs when the computer goes into low-power/standby mode, like
when closing the lid.

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote in news:um5d55$1pgjf$1@dont-email.me:

> On 12/22/2023 6:58 PM, Boris wrote:
>> =?UTF-8?B?Li4ud8Khw7HCp8KxwqTDsSA=?= <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:uluksg$ht0l$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> Boris wrote on 12/19/23 7:18 PM:
>>>> <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>> news:ulm81a$2r0rl$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>> Account creation for a Local account can be done by navigation
>>>>> from multiple places from an existing Admin account
>>>>> 'Control Panel/User Accounts/Manage Accounts/Add new user in PC
>>>>> Settings' or
>>>>> Go/Navigate to the same location to add an account
>>>>> Settings/Accounts/Other Users/Add Account
>>>>> - Select/Click 'I dont have this persons sign in information'
>>>>> - Select/Click 'Add a user without a Microsoft account'
>>>>> => Enter Username and Password
>>>>> Once the account is created go back to Accounts/User Accounts,
>>>>> select the new account and use the 'Change account' option to
>>>>> change it to an admin account.
>>>>> Logoff the current admin account that created the account, restart
>>>>> and select the new Local admin account. enter the
>>>>> password...Windows will fnish creating the logon account, issue a
>>>>> Welcome or similar command while it's building the folder
>>>>> structure and finally display the desktop for the new account.
>>>>> => At that point you can then navigate to different installed
>>>>> programs
>>>>> and see if the new account makes a difference in time to open
>>>>> programs, Disk usage %, CPU usage, etc.
>>>>> - i.e. what you are doing is comparing one account's vs the
>>>>> possible
>>>>> problem account.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the instructions.
>>>>
>>>> Looks like no matter what identity (account profile) I use, results
>>>> are the same. Sloooooow.
>>>>
>>>> I created another local administrator account, "Tester". So now I
>>>> have two local administrator accounts. Tester was excrutiatingly
>>>> slow to load the OS and eventually paint the desktop. Tester did
>>>> not have all programs that Boris had, but all those that I tried on
>>>> Tester acted that same as if I'd launched them from Boris's
>>>> account...slow to launch. Also, the disk drive took so long to
>>>> settle down from 100%, that I gave up.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Thanks for the update and the willingness to test another profile.
>>> Your results indicate it's not unique to a given windows logon
>>> profile, thus an existing limit - not image related(if you ran *all*
>>> the DISM commands to ensure the image and component store were
>>> addressed) - or bottleneck associated with the hardware, software,
>>> o/s and their associated services and performances.
>>>
>>> Some suggestions(Paul, Vanguard) are trickling in now that more
>>> information has been provided by you...but more info may be
>>> necessary suggest other possible recommendations or direction.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I've been away from this laptop for a while, and just got back. I
>> see lots of theories because I've not been able to provide specific
>> diagnostic information that would possibly provide better leads as to
>> my 100% disk usage issue.
>>
>> I've run ProcessMonitor, ResourceMonitor, Perfmon, and
>> ProcessExplorer, but I don't know how to interpret them. Making
>> screenshots during 100% disk usage has been difficult, because the
>> screenshot program doesn't like to load. More importanty, I don't
>> know how to interpret what I see. I'll provide (below) what I've
>> been able to shoot while the disk is at 100% usage.
>>
>> I'll give as much new information here, rather than respond
>> separately to all the new posts I see.
>>
>> Time for machine to get to settling down from Start, 21 minutes, as
>> follows:
>>
>> Start...press the hardware start button on the laptop
>> Dell logo appears
>> 5-55 sec. (50 sec.) screen is black
>> 55-2:50 (1 min. 55 sec.) please wait
>> 2:50-2:55 (5 sec.) lock screen
>> 2:55-3:20 (25 sec.) my background screen appears
>> 3:20-3:30 (10 sec.) Boris welcome screen with spinning circle
>> 3:30-6:00 (2 min. 30 sec.) screen is black
>> 6:00-6:30 (30 sec.) my own desktop background appears without icons
>> or taskbar
>> 6:30-9:00 (2 min. 30 sec.) desktop icons appear
>> 9:00-9:10 (10 sec.) taskbar icons appear
>> at 9 1/2 minutes I go to taskmanager, and disk finally settles down
>> at 21 minutes
>>
>> Even once settled down, still takes more that a minute (or more) to
>> launch some programs for the first time during a session. And once
>> the program reacts normally, if I close it, and don't use it for a
>> while, it can take a long time to launch it again.
>>
>> hard drive is Seagate:
>> https://goughlui.com/the-hard-disk-corner/seagate-st1000lm024-hn-m101m
>> bb- momentus-2-5-1tb-2014/
>>
>> Safe mode (under Boris, not Tester) takes long to load, and while in
>> Safe Mode, task manager only displays CPU and memory, so can't see if
>> disk is 100% usage, but the programs that do launch in Safe Mode do
>> launch normally, such as IrfanView, FastStone Image viewer, Adobe
>> Acrobat Reader. Some programs like VLC launch with server error,
>> probably checking for updates first, but there's no network
>> connection, and Windows Photos won't launh at all. Many programs
>> don't appear in the Safe Mode desktop.
>>
>> This desktop has no Microsoft account.
>> There is no password.
>> Only local account.
>> No auto-login. Boris has to click in at welcome screen.
>>
>> This laptop has no hard drive activity light.
>>
>> Here's screenshots of task manager:
>> https://postimg.cc/gallery/LjLrYt9
>>
>> Here's screenshots of ResourceMonitor:
>> https://postimg.cc/LhX9hFRG
>>
>> Here's screenshots of Perfmon:
>> https://postimg.cc/gallery/2zZ34VV
>> (Odd that both are with disk 100%, but different graphs.)
>>
>> Here's screenshots of ProcessExplorer:
>> https://postimg.cc/gallery/NwY7cXn
>>
>> Here's screenshots of HD Tune:
>> https://postimg.cc/gallery/YQsz7LX
>>
>> Don't know if this is of any help.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>
> Drive is 5400 RPM and started life at the Samsung plant. I would
> guess Seagate acquired the Samsung drive business. 5400 RPM, SATA.
> Data sheet says 145MB/sec [cough]. (A third-party bench is 120, and
> using the "doubling rule", the inner-hub is 50MB/sec so the outer ring
> should be 100MB/sec.) It could be a bridged drive with IDE electronics
> and a IDE to SATA chip on it. The cache chip is only 16MB
> and that means a static RAM, instead of DRAM used now. Static RAM
> can also be slow, because a part of the industry is "frozen in time"
> at 100MB/sec.
>
> https://www.amazon.ca/Samsung-Spinpoint-ST1000LM024-Cache-3-0Gb/dp/B009
> BZUL6I

So the drive was a four year old POS when Dell put it in their 5559. As
my kids would say, LOL.

>
> HDTune says 7600 power on hours, 45000 start-stop.
> Reallocated sector count is 0. Nothing there hints at trouble.
>
> The HDTune benchmark is inconclusive, because HDTune is fighting
> with whatever else is consuming disk. I get the same problem here,
> even after waiting an hour for stuff to quiet down.
>
> The drive was running at 86F / 30C. Which is fine. The drive has
> a small cache, so a track buffer is unlikely (a track cache helps
> sometimes when wading through a sea of small files). The IOP rating of
> the drive, is 58, instead of the 1500+ a modern drive with big DRAM on
> it gets. The IOP on an SSD, can be faster than the OS can usefully
> employ.
>
> Resource Monitor shows:
>
> "Dell TechHub: replaces Dell Hardware Scan service and is needed
> to run the Hardware Scan panel"
>
> Sample of Dell owner bloat-load in msconfig.exe services tab
>
> https://www.dell.com/community/assets/community/687062f5-603c-4f5f
> -ab9d-31aa7cacb376/DellTechHubmakesDellcomputerta-521ae740-5420-41
> ea-8f78-73c2d158f771-1427808586.

On 12/23/2023 2:02 AM, Boris wrote:

>
> So the drive was a four year old POS when Dell put it in their 5559. As
> my kids would say, LOL.
>
> That link gives me an error, but I'm interested in what it has to say.

My line wrap is set at a high number. It's not 72 columns. The wider you
make your screen, the wider this line will become.

https://www.dell.com/community/assets/community/687062f5-603c-4f5f-ab9d-31aa7cacb376/DellTechHubmakesDellcomputerta-521ae740-5420-41ea-8f78-73c2d158f771-1427808586.

I'll put angle-brackets around it, but I doubt this will help. The
period on the end of that link IS PART OF THE LINK. Talk about
corny affectations at Dell.

<https://www.dell.com/community/assets/community/687062f5-603c-4f5f-ab9d-31aa7cacb376/DellTechHubmakesDellcomputerta-521ae740-5420-41ea-8f78-73c2d158f771-1427808586.>

>> The considered opinion here, is the drive is a dog, and an
>> SSD will provide relief from the agony.
>
> I love dogs.

We'll see in January, whether there will be a Good Dog for you.

And by the way, don't expect miracles. The OS presents a lot
of overhead, that cannot be justified. Anything Dell has added,
isn't helping matters. An SSD is not a miracle cure. It's a start
at improving things. Some of the Dell software should be removed
or disabled. msconfig would have made this easy, the new solution
isn't particularly pleasant or clever.

Things I meddle with, when I'm muttering "hurry up, hurry up!".
These are typical during a Cumulative on Patch Tuesday.

1( Stop the sysmain service.
2) Repeatedly kill the SearchIndexer.exe (it is set to restart itself,
and will not stay non-running for long.
3) Windows Defender, turn off Real Time Protection. WD can drop the
I/O rate on a W10/W11 device by a factor of ten.

Paul

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 12/23/2023 2:02 AM, Boris wrote:
>
>>
>> So the drive was a four year old POS when Dell put it in their 5559. As
>> my kids would say, LOL.
>>
>> That link gives me an error, but I'm interested in what it has to say.
>
> My line wrap is set at a high number. It's not 72 columns. The wider you
> make your screen, the wider this line will become.
>
> https://www.dell.com/community/assets/community/687062f5-603c-4f5f-ab9d-31aa7cacb376/DellTechHubmakesDellcomputerta-521ae740-5420-41ea-8f78-73c2d158f771-1427808586.
>
> I'll put angle-brackets around it, but I doubt this will help. The
> period on the end of that link IS PART OF THE LINK. Talk about
> corny affectations at Dell.
>
> <https://www.dell.com/community/assets/community/687062f5-603c-4f5f-ab9d-31aa7cacb376/DellTechHubmakesDellcomputerta-521ae740-5420-41ea-8f78-73c2d158f771-1427808586.>
>
>>> The considered opinion here, is the drive is a dog, and an
>>> SSD will provide relief from the agony.
>>
>> I love dogs.
>
> We'll see in January, whether there will be a Good Dog for you.
>
> And by the way, don't expect miracles. The OS presents a lot
> of overhead, that cannot be justified. Anything Dell has added,
> isn't helping matters. An SSD is not a miracle cure. It's a start
> at improving things. Some of the Dell software should be removed
> or disabled. msconfig would have made this easy, the new solution
> isn't particularly pleasant or clever.
>
> Things I meddle with, when I'm muttering "hurry up, hurry up!".
> These are typical during a Cumulative on Patch Tuesday.
>
> 1( Stop the sysmain service.
> 2) Repeatedly kill the SearchIndexer.exe (it is set to restart itself,
> and will not stay non-running for long.
> 3) Windows Defender, turn off Real Time Protection. WD can drop the
> I/O rate on a W10/W11 device by a factor of ten.
>
> Paul

His Dell 5559 is c.2015. His Seagate drive is c.2014. The story might
parallel Old Yeller: time to put down Old Yeller, and move on with Young
Yeller. Could be Old Yeller is acceptable at doing what Boris wants
from it, but I need to ask if the slowdown is a new problem, or noticed
after using a much faster computer. That is, is it a new problem, or an
old lingering problem? "For a while" doesn't say how long. As you use
new and faster computers, the older slower ones seem even more slow.
It's old, but not that bad for many end-user tasks.

A $100 2.5" 2TB SSD to replace his 2TB HDD would give a performance
boost, like during startup, shutdown, and when loading programs, but it
would only improve disk performance. Whatever is causing the slowdown,
especially if a recent problem, could easily migrate to his setup after
switching to an SSD. His startup time would be reduced, but the
slowdown may be other than disk based.

Paul wrote:

> My line wrap is set at a high number. It's not 72 columns. The wider you
> make your screen, the wider this line will become.

Not true as received here, the line break occurs after "you" when there
is more than enough width remaining on my screen for the following line
to be shown to the right.

> I'll put angle-brackets around it, but I doubt this will help. The
> period on the end of that link IS PART OF THE LINK. Talk about
> corny affectations at Dell.
>
> <https://www.dell.com/community/assets/community/687062f5-603c-4f5f-ab9d-31aa7cacb376/DellTechHubmakesDellcomputerta-521ae740-5420-41ea-8f78-73c2d158f771-1427808586.>

With or without the angle-brackets, that URL doesn't wrap here.

Boris <nospam@invalid.com> wrote:
> I've been trying to solve 100% disk usage on this machine for a while,
> now:
>
> Dell Inspiron 5559
> Windows 10 HP x64, OEM installed, fully updated, 22H2, 5/18/2016

After all these, about fifty, responses, just a reference point that
a laptop as yours should be able to give a reasonable performance.

My wife's laptop:

HP Pavilion 17-e106ed ('d' for Dutch).
Purchased May 2014.
Came with Windows 8. Updated to 8.1. Upgraded to Windows 10 22H2. Fully
updated.
AMD A4-5000 CPU and AMD Radeon HD 8330 GPU
8GB RAM
500 GB HDD 'HGST HTS545050A7E680 SATA Disk Device' (in Device Mananger)

Some details for this Hitachi disk:

'Hard Disk Drive / SSD / Storage Device Technical Details'
<https://www.hdsentinel.com/storageinfo_details.php?lang=en&model=HITACHI%20HTS545050A7E680>

While this laptop is not blazingly fast, it's quite usable, especially
once booted and logged in [1].

Some programs which haven't run yet - or haven't run for a long time -
might take some time to (re)start, but normally not more than a few
seconds, ten at most.

All in all, IMO not bad for a nearly ten year old laptop with -
relatively - small RAM and a HDD.

[1] We don't turn off our laptops. No need to. We let them sleep or, if
that takes too much (battery) power, we hibernate them, much faster
'restart'/wakeup.

[...]