On 2/3/2024 12:19 PM, micky wrote:
> In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Sat, 3 Feb 2024 01:57:31 -0600, kelown
> <kelown@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I am not interested in synchronizing files between my Android and PC. I
>> was discussing the automatic copy/paste of text between my Android and
>> Windows laptop, and the possibility of running Android apps on my
> ===============
>> Windows laptop.
>
> Someone in this or another group tried to teach me about the difference
> between an app and a program, BOTH on a PC. It hasn't sunk in yet. Are
> you using app to mean program or are you using it differently from
> program?
>

They have characteristics, but they are likely coincidental.
In the case of Windows, they could have called them HotDogs, and
it would have made no difference.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/6q7Cz3CC/program-versus-App.gif

And as another example of that, when someone mentions
they have a UWP on their Windows desktop, what does that mean to
anyone ? Well, that's a "HotDog with Relish and Ketchup".

Paul

> OK. But the sidethread is about using WhatsApp as if it's on the PC, where
> you brought up emulation - not me. I was responding to what you brought up.

My original inquiry was to get elaboration on using Windows Phone Link
to run Android apps.

On 2024-02-02 15:01, micky wrote:
> I thought I was installing Whatsapp on my PC just because that one airline insisted on my using it, but it turns out it's a really good thing.

After lengthy threads in 3 newsgroups, the real issue for me has not
emerged: Whatsapp on Windows, NO smartphone, NO Microsoft account.
Would it be possible?

frank

On Sat, 03 Feb 2024 12:19:45 -0500, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com>
wrote:

>In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Sat, 3 Feb 2024 01:57:31 -0600, kelown
><kelown@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>I am not interested in synchronizing files between my Android and PC. I
>>was discussing the automatic copy/paste of text between my Android and
>>Windows laptop, and the possibility of running Android apps on my
> ==============>>Windows laptop.
>
>Someone in this or another group tried to teach me about the difference
>between an app and a program, BOTH on a PC. It hasn't sunk in yet. Are
>you using app to mean program or are you using it differently from
>program?

There are no official definitions that distinguish between them. "App"
is short for "application" and both "application" and "program" are
short for "application program" (as opposed to "utility program").

So there's no real difference between them. However many people use
the two terms differently, in a variety of ways. Probably the most
common way they are used is that an "app" is something used on a smart
phone and a "program" is something used on a PC. But since there's no
consistency in the way "app" is used, I avoid using the term myself,
and advise you to be wary of making any assumption about someone who
uses it means.

On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 00:54:44 -0600, kelown wrote:

>> OK. But the sidethread is about using WhatsApp as if it's on the PC, where
>> you brought up emulation - not me. I was responding to what you brought up.
>
> My original inquiry was to get elaboration on using Windows Phone Link
> to run Android apps.

There are two (both easy) ways to "see/run" Android apps on Windows.
1. Emulation (they're actually running on the computer cpu)
2. Mirroring (they're just reacting to the computer monitor & kb & mouse)

Here's just one (of many) wireless screen mirroring tool.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=fonelab.mirror.recorder

And here's just one (of many) phone emulator for the pc.
https://developer.android.com/studio/run/emulator

If it requires an account when it doesn't need that account, it's trash.

On 2024-02-03 09:19, micky wrote:
> In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Sat, 3 Feb 2024 01:57:31 -0600, kelown
> <kelown@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I am not interested in synchronizing files between my Android and PC. I
>> was discussing the automatic copy/paste of text between my Android and
>> Windows laptop, and the possibility of running Android apps on my
> ===============
>> Windows laptop.
>
> Someone in this or another group tried to teach me about the difference
> between an app and a program, BOTH on a PC. It hasn't sunk in yet. Are
> you using app to mean program or are you using it differently from
> program?

In my opinion, "app" is just a shorter way of saying "application", and
again in my opinion, the difference between "application" and "program"
is that "program" is a general term for software.

Any piece of software that is written is a "program" of some kind, and
an "application" is a particular kind of program that is created for a
computer user to perform some task.

On 2/4/24 10:14 AM, Alan wrote:
> On 2024-02-03 09:19, micky wrote:
>> In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Sat, 3 Feb 2024 01:57:31 -0600, kelown
>> <kelown@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am not interested in synchronizing files between my Android and PC. I
>>> was discussing the automatic copy/paste of text between my Android and
>>> Windows laptop, and the possibility of running Android apps on my
>> ===============
>>> Windows laptop.
>>
>> Someone in this or another group tried to teach me about the difference
>> between an app and a program, BOTH on a PC. It hasn't sunk in yet. Are
>> you using app to mean program or are you using it differently from
>> program?
>
> In my opinion, "app" is just a shorter way of saying "application", and
> again in my opinion, the difference between "application" and "program"
> is that "program" is a general term for software.
>
> Any piece of software that is written is a "program" of some kind, and
> an "application" is a particular kind of program that is created for a
> computer user to perform some task.

Probably a good way of determining age/experience; people who have been
around since card-punch days probably talk about programs and look upon
the app-people as children.

--
Cheers, Bev
"Screw the end users. If they want good software,
let them write it themselves." -- Anon.

>>> OK. But the sidethread is about using WhatsApp as if it's on the PC, where
>>> you brought up emulation - not me. I was responding to what you brought up.
>>
>> My original inquiry was to get elaboration on using Windows Phone Link
>> to run Android apps.
>
> There are two (both easy) ways to "see/run" Android apps on Windows.
> 1. Emulation (they're actually running on the computer cpu)
> 2. Mirroring (they're just reacting to the computer monitor & kb & mouse)

Further research has shown me that Windows Phone Link simply mirrors the
apps already on your Android phone. It does not independently run
Android apps as an emulator would. I'm already using NoxPlayer as an
emulator, so I'll continue using Windows Phone Link only for copy/paste
across PC <=> Android devices.

> Here's just one (of many) wireless screen mirroring tool.
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=fonelab.mirror.recorder
>
> And here's just one (of many) phone emulator for the pc.
> https://developer.android.com/studio/run/emulator

On 2/4/2024 3:18 AM, frank_n_2017 wrote:
> On 2024-02-02 15:01, micky wrote:
>> I thought I was installing Whatsapp on my PC just because that one airline insisted on my using it, but it turns out it's a really good thing.
>
> After lengthy threads in 3 newsgroups, the real issue for me has not emerged: Whatsapp on Windows, NO smartphone, NO Microsoft account. Would it be possible?
>
> frank

Short answer. "No."

WhatsApp uses a Jabber ID. The Jabber ID just happens to be a telecom phone number.
It goes downhill from there.

VOIP systems without POTS bridges, don't need any sort of telecom numbers.
A pure VOIP system could in fact be anonymous, but not very trustworthy.
(If ABC1234 called, you would not know who that was exactly.)

*******

Two computers, with TCP/IP addresses and protocols, could communicate
in complete privacy. Two computers plus the Internet, can function as
two tomato tins and a piece of string.

So we know that, given the right software, it's possible to
communicate voice and video, without anyone else having to know.

The invention of incidental issues (credit card charges applied by
telecom connections), is what causes the tie-in
with identifiers. Again, it goes downhill from there (Facebook
adverts based on WhatsApp activity).

Paul

On Sun, 4 Feb 2024 13:00:49 -0600, kelown wrote:

> Further research has shown me that Windows Phone Link simply mirrors the
> apps already on your Android phone. It does not independently run
> Android apps as an emulator would. I'm already using NoxPlayer as an
> emulator, so I'll continue using Windows Phone Link only for copy/paste
> across PC <=> Android devices.

If an application that doesn't need an account requires an account
(which PhoneLink does as far as I know) then it's trash in my book.

Luckily there are many apps to mirror & control the phone on the PC.
Here's another I found by searching which doesn't mention an account.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.koushikdutta.vysor
It has a Windows server that controls the entire phone from the PC.
https://www.vysor.io/download/

I looked for a free app without ads that shared the clipboard between
Windows & Android and a few came up if clipboard sharing is needed.

Take a look at these apps to see if any do what you like about clipbrds.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ghiasi.roamitapp
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.deedatbilla.clipshare

This one says it syncs the clipbrd with Android, Windows & the iphone too.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.c2design.ClipSyncMulti

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Sun, 4 Feb 2024 11:00:21 -0800, The Real
Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 2/4/24 10:14 AM, Alan wrote:
>> On 2024-02-03 09:19, micky wrote:
>>> In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Sat, 3 Feb 2024 01:57:31 -0600, kelown
>>> <kelown@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am not interested in synchronizing files between my Android and PC. I
>>>> was discussing the automatic copy/paste of text between my Android and
>>>> Windows laptop, and the possibility of running Android apps on my
>>> ===============
>>>> Windows laptop.
>>>
>>> Someone in this or another group tried to teach me about the difference
>>> between an app and a program, BOTH on a PC. It hasn't sunk in yet. Are
>>> you using app to mean program or are you using it differently from
>>> program?
>>
>> In my opinion, "app" is just a shorter way of saying "application", and
>> again in my opinion, the difference between "application" and "program"
>> is that "program" is a general term for software.
>>
>> Any piece of software that is written is a "program" of some kind, and
>> an "application" is a particular kind of program that is created for a
>> computer user to perform some task.
>
>Probably a good way of determining age/experience; people who have been
>around since card-punch days probably talk about programs and look upon
>the app-people as children.

Well, I felt that way and now that I know there is no difference, I feel
that way again.

someone, somewhere tutored me IIUC that there was an important
difference, and if I find the post again, I'll argue with him.

> I looked for a free app without ads that shared the clipboard between
> Windows & Android and a few came up if clipboard sharing is needed.

Before Windows Phone Link I tested plenty of Android <=> PC copy/paste
solutions and found that they all eventually unsynched unexpectedly and
I had to manually reconnect them, and sometimes had to reinstall them.
Windows Phone Link is the only bi-directional copy/paste solution that
hasn't given me a day of trouble. It automatically re-syncs after
Windows or my Android phone go to sleep.

Needing a MS account to make it all work is no issue since I used a MS
account long before Windows Phone Link was a thing. And you still
haven't proven that a MS account is not needed for all the stuff that
Windows Phone Link does. It certainly does more than just mirroring,
which is the only case you made for it not needing a MS account.

Before Windows Phone Link I used Google Keep for copy/paste syncs. It
was reliable but less convenient to use.

micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
> In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Sun, 4 Feb 2024 11:00:21 -0800, The Real
> Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On 2/4/24 10:14 AM, Alan wrote:
> >> On 2024-02-03 09:19, micky wrote:
> >>> In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Sat, 3 Feb 2024 01:57:31 -0600, kelown
> >>> <kelown@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I am not interested in synchronizing files between my Android and PC. I
> >>>> was discussing the automatic copy/paste of text between my Android and
> >>>> Windows laptop, and the possibility of running Android apps on my
> >>> ===============
> >>>> Windows laptop.
> >>>
> >>> Someone in this or another group tried to teach me about the difference
> >>> between an app and a program, BOTH on a PC. It hasn't sunk in yet. Are
> >>> you using app to mean program or are you using it differently from
> >>> program?
> >>
> >> In my opinion, "app" is just a shorter way of saying "application", and
> >> again in my opinion, the difference between "application" and "program"
> >> is that "program" is a general term for software.
> >>
> >> Any piece of software that is written is a "program" of some kind, and
> >> an "application" is a particular kind of program that is created for a
> >> computer user to perform some task.
> >
> >Probably a good way of determining age/experience; people who have been
> >around since card-punch days probably talk about programs and look upon
> >the app-people as children.
>
> Well, I felt that way and now that I know there is no difference, I feel
> that way again.
>
> someone, somewhere tutored me IIUC that there was an important
> difference, and if I find the post again, I'll argue with him.

On *Windows* - this thread is crossposted to Android and Windows
groups -, there *is* a big difference between regular 'old' style
Windows programs and 'new' style UWP/Metro/Modern/<whatever> apps.

It's not so much on the outside, but internally, how the software is
developed, how it is installed, where it is stored, etc., etc..

In general, Windows apps were and often still are more limited in
functionality than Windows programs. Often, there is no real need for
that, but that's what Microsoft decided in their infinite wisdom, is A
Good Thing (TM).

On the Windows 10/11 Start menu and Settings menu, Microsoft calls
everything 'Apps', but in Control Panel -> Programs, also they still
talk about programs (not apps) and only list the programs on your
system, not the apps.

If you have a third-party Start menu like Classic Start Menu,
Open-Shell Menu, etc., it probably makes the distinction for you. For
example Open-Shell Menu has a menu item for 'Programs' and another one
for 'Apps'. Wonder why *that* is!? :-) Probably they don't know either
what they're talking about, so if you want a candidate to "argue with",
there's your chance! :-)

Bottom line: You don't have to make a distinction and most of the time
saying 'app' is fine - if you don't mind looking a bit silly in a
Windows group, when you're actually referring to a program/non-app -,
but please do not "argue with" people who *do* know the difference.

On 2024-02-03 18:15, micky wrote:
> In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Sat, 3 Feb 2024 16:00:06 +0100, "Carlos
> E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-02-03 15:15, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>> On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 19:30:23 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2024-02-02 16:53, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 02 Feb 2024 10:01:46 -0500, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com>
>>>>> wrote:

....

>>>> But this tool requires the phone to be running, whereas the whatsapp app
>>>> (or the equivalent on the web browser) do not.
>>>
>>> Yes, but on the off-chance that someone might want to call us most of
>>> us don't switch our phones off.
>>
>> But specifically the OP does.
>
> Yes, and I appreciate the personal attention. And your passing remark
> was enlightening: "But this tool requires the phone to be running,
> whereas the whatsapp app (or the equivalent on the web browser) do not."

Welcome :-)

>
> I had not yet thought there might be a webpage that worked, and if I
> had, I would have thought the phone had to be on, like with the windows
> program, but by golly, it works, and in Firefox*** too
> (https://blog.whatsapp.com/whats-app-web pushed Chrome.) I think I
> could even saw it loading the new messages I had gotten since last I
> looked (nothing important).
>
> (I would have thought the equivalent of the whatsapp app was the
> whatsapp program, the separate one, and that it would be more powerful
> than the whatsapp webpage, but it's the opposite.)
>
> This is so great! Now I don't have to turn the phone on. And it's
> much easier to do housekeeping, like reading old chats and deleting
> them. (The mouse and keyboard are easier than on the phone.)
>
> And I can probably make calls using my laptops microphone and camera.
> And I've added a microphone to the desktop too. (Already has a camera, I
> usually turn both cameras off in Device Manager.) No more having to
> hold the phone!
>
> I've already put a "shortcut" on the new-tab page.
>
> I no longer see much use for the separate whatapp program except that it
> shows badges when I get a call or message, so I've moved that to the top
> line of the taskbar, where I'll see it. My nephew and his wife are
> back in Peru now, so one of them may call.
>
>
> ***Firefox currently has one weakness for which Chrome is better. You
> can't use a microphone to talk into google translate, but you can with
> Chrome on the PC.

This may be Google's fault. They do mention that FF doesn't have all the
features. Google can recode Chrome to better support their own web apps.

> Not a big problem since usually I'm out and relying
> on the phone when I would use it, where it works great by the way. Also
> from Spanish. There were several people who IMO slurred their Spanish
> words together or dropped the final consonants so I couldn't come close
> to understanding them, but Google translate via microphone did. Every
> time. Incredible.
>
> In LIvingston, Guatemala, even the men who had to get their water at the
> pila (I think they say pila for pileta**, where they have a big pool of
> water and cement washboards for doing laundry, plus a 2" pipe with water
> coming out. . Only saw this in one town. They carry it home in what
> looked like 10gallon plastic cans.

Yes, I saw this in Spain when I was a kid in remote villages. Not
plastic, but old earthenware. Heavy. At some time, it wall everywhere
like this.

> Even though I guess they had no
> running water, at least 4 of them had smart phones. So just about
> everyone was used to google translate. (One older woman ignored the
> phone when I put it in front of her, but everyone else used it to get
> English for me. OTOH, I only needed it for unusual words.)

Yeah, that is funny. Modern and old mixed.

>
> **Even though google translate doesn't list pila to mean pool.
>
>
> At home. I can always start Chrome on rare occasions when I want to use
> the microphone to imput words to translate.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2024-02-04 19:28, Paul wrote:
> Short answer. "No."
>
> WhatsApp uses a Jabber ID. The Jabber ID just happens to be a telecom phone number.

A telephone is not necessary a smartphone. My text-only cellphone is
used profusely in many 2-way security checks.

On 2/5/2024 8:09 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
>> In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Sun, 4 Feb 2024 11:00:21 -0800, The Real
>> Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/4/24 10:14 AM, Alan wrote:
>>>> On 2024-02-03 09:19, micky wrote:
>>>>> In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Sat, 3 Feb 2024 01:57:31 -0600, kelown
>>>>> <kelown@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not interested in synchronizing files between my Android and PC. I
>>>>>> was discussing the automatic copy/paste of text between my Android and
>>>>>> Windows laptop, and the possibility of running Android apps on my
>>>>> ===============
>>>>>> Windows laptop.
>>>>>
>>>>> Someone in this or another group tried to teach me about the difference
>>>>> between an app and a program, BOTH on a PC. It hasn't sunk in yet. Are
>>>>> you using app to mean program or are you using it differently from
>>>>> program?
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion, "app" is just a shorter way of saying "application", and
>>>> again in my opinion, the difference between "application" and "program"
>>>> is that "program" is a general term for software.
>>>>
>>>> Any piece of software that is written is a "program" of some kind, and
>>>> an "application" is a particular kind of program that is created for a
>>>> computer user to perform some task.
>>>
>>> Probably a good way of determining age/experience; people who have been
>>> around since card-punch days probably talk about programs and look upon
>>> the app-people as children.
>>
>> Well, I felt that way and now that I know there is no difference, I feel
>> that way again.
>>
>> someone, somewhere tutored me IIUC that there was an important
>> difference, and if I find the post again, I'll argue with him.
>
> On *Windows* - this thread is crossposted to Android and Windows
> groups -, there *is* a big difference between regular 'old' style
> Windows programs and 'new' style UWP/Metro/Modern/<whatever> apps.
>
> It's not so much on the outside, but internally, how the software is
> developed, how it is installed, where it is stored, etc., etc..
>
> In general, Windows apps were and often still are more limited in
> functionality than Windows programs. Often, there is no real need for
> that, but that's what Microsoft decided in their infinite wisdom, is A
> Good Thing (TM).
>
> On the Windows 10/11 Start menu and Settings menu, Microsoft calls
> everything 'Apps', but in Control Panel -> Programs, also they still
> talk about programs (not apps) and only list the programs on your
> system, not the apps.
>
> If you have a third-party Start menu like Classic Start Menu,
> Open-Shell Menu, etc., it probably makes the distinction for you. For
> example Open-Shell Menu has a menu item for 'Programs' and another one
> for 'Apps'. Wonder why *that* is!? :-) Probably they don't know either
> what they're talking about, so if you want a candidate to "argue with",
> there's your chance! :-)
>
> Bottom line: You don't have to make a distinction and most of the time
> saying 'app' is fine - if you don't mind looking a bit silly in a
> Windows group, when you're actually referring to a program/non-app -,
> but please do not "argue with" people who *do* know the difference.
>

The only safe definition that I can figure out, is the "anti-particle" definition.

An "App" is anything which is not a Program or a Widget or a <insert-expanding-list-here>.

Windows 11

File 14004
\Users\username\AppData\Local\MICROS~1\WINDOW~1\notepad.exe
$STANDARD_INFORMATION (resident)
$FILE_NAME (resident)
$DATA (resident)
$REPARSE_POINT (resident)

File 247041
\Users\username-2\AppData\Local\MICROS~1\WINDOW~1\notepad.exe
$STANDARD_INFORMATION (resident)
$FILE_NAME (resident)
$DATA (resident)
$REPARSE_POINT (resident)

C:\Users\username\AppData\Local\Microsoft\WindowsApps
Notepad.exe 0 bytes <=== ??? Antiparticle.

On Windows 10, that file is not in that place, because
on Windows 10, Notepad.exe is a Program, and not stored in WindowsApps
various cubby holes.

The only reason I could make my joke picture, is I had access to both
a Win10 and a Win11 OS on the same disk drive, and I could reach into
the Win10 storage place and run the Program Version of Notepad.exe .

What we're looking for, is precise distinctive features a user can use.
They don't use the same font rendering or graphics surface.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/6q7Cz3CC/program-versus-App.gif

The Program on the left is using ClearType font rendering (blue feathering).
The App on the right is using grayscale feathering for its fonts (not ClearType).
The third kind of font rendering, can be seen on some older programs
which are runtime compatible with the OS (effectively 7x9 dot matrix or "fixed" fonts).

Apps like the Groove music player, try to distract you with huge
background images (Groove has probably been re-written multiple
times since launch). Programs which open a GUI, they don't try to
distract you.

The only Widget sample I have on my system, is News and Interests,
which is an App without App decorations around the edges.
It cannot be "dismissed" as such. The notifications dialog has some
Widget-like properties. Maybe the Search boxes I don't use, like the
one on the Task Bar I got rid of ? It could be widget-like.

Metro.App on Win 8.0 , did not have the "X" to dismiss them.
Win 8.1 added that back. There is a famous little video snippet,
of a "test user" in a lab, staring at a screen like a deer
in the headlights, when there is no "X" to dismiss the Metro.App
that occupies his entire screen :-) Of course alt-F4 would have
dismissed it, but we only learned that trick later (it's not the
first thing that comes to mind). Thanks to "that guy", today
the App has decorations. Thank you, sir.

What is design intent ? It's what you do when you not
taking hits off your bong.

Paul

In comp.mobile.android, on Mon, 5 Feb 2024 14:40:45 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>On 2024-02-03 18:15, micky wrote:
>> In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Sat, 3 Feb 2024 16:00:06 +0100, "Carlos
>> E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-02-03 15:15, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 19:30:23 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2024-02-02 16:53, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 02 Feb 2024 10:01:46 -0500, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>
>...
>
>>>>> But this tool requires the phone to be running, whereas the whatsapp app
>>>>> (or the equivalent on the web browser) do not.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but on the off-chance that someone might want to call us most of
>>>> us don't switch our phones off.
>>>
>>> But specifically the OP does.
>>
>> Yes, and I appreciate the personal attention. And your passing remark
>> was enlightening: "But this tool requires the phone to be running,
>> whereas the whatsapp app (or the equivalent on the web browser) do not."
>
>Welcome :-)
>
>>
>> I had not yet thought there might be a webpage that worked, and if I
>> had, I would have thought the phone had to be on, like with the windows
>> program, but by golly, it works, and in Firefox*** too
>> (https://blog.whatsapp.com/whats-app-web pushed Chrome.) I think I
>> could even saw it loading the new messages I had gotten since last I
>> looked (nothing important).
>>
>> (I would have thought the equivalent of the whatsapp app was the
>> whatsapp program, the separate one, and that it would be more powerful
>> than the whatsapp webpage, but it's the opposite.)
>>
>> This is so great! Now I don't have to turn the phone on. And it's
>> much easier to do housekeeping, like reading old chats and deleting
>> them. (The mouse and keyboard are easier than on the phone.)
>>
>> And I can probably make calls using my laptops microphone and camera.
>> And I've added a microphone to the desktop too. (Already has a camera, I
>> usually turn both cameras off in Device Manager.) No more having to
>> hold the phone!
>>
>> I've already put a "shortcut" on the new-tab page.
>>
>> I no longer see much use for the separate whatapp program except that it
>> shows badges when I get a call or message, so I've moved that to the top
>> line of the taskbar, where I'll see it. My nephew and his wife are
>> back in Peru now, so one of them may call.
>>
>>
>> ***Firefox currently has one weakness for which Chrome is better. You
>> can't use a microphone to talk into google translate, but you can with
>> Chrome on the PC.
>
>This may be Google's fault. They do mention that FF doesn't have all the
>features. Google can recode Chrome to better support their own web apps.
>
>> Not a big problem since usually I'm out and relying
>> on the phone when I would use it, where it works great by the way. Also
>> from Spanish. There were several people who IMO slurred their Spanish
>> words together or dropped the final consonants so I couldn't come close
>> to understanding them, but Google translate via microphone did. Every
>> time. Incredible.
>>
>> In LIvingston, Guatemala, even the men who had to get their water at the
>> pila (I think they say pila for pileta**, where they have a big pool of
>> water and cement washboards for doing laundry, plus a 2" pipe with water
>> coming out. . Only saw this in one town. They carry it home in what
>> looked like 10gallon plastic cans.
>
>Yes, I saw this in Spain when I was a kid in remote villages. Not
>plastic, but old earthenware. Heavy. At some time, it wall everywhere
>like this.

Heavy earthenware, plus the water is heavy.
>
>> Even though I guess they had no
>> running water, at least 4 of them had smart phones. So just about
>> everyone was used to google translate. (Oneolder woman ignored the
>> phone when I put it in front of her, but everyone else used it to get
>> English for me. OTOH, I only needed it for unusual words.)
>
>Yeah, that is funny. Modern and old mixed.

Indeed.

I have my own pictures, but I'm not good at getting them from the phone
to the laptop to a website, so here is streetview. They don't have
every street but they have this one.
https://www.google.com/maps/@15.8238108,-88.7497978,3a,26.5y,44.67h,69.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suwWIaWhCK8HPuC_j7xe07g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en&entry=ttu
This is street view so you can move it around, move to the left up the
street to see froma different angle.

One can see that there are 6 places to do wash, on this side of the big
pool and there are another 6 on the other side. There are 3 women doing
their wash in the view I post, and to the left of the left-most one is a
"scrub board" that is not being used. It's cement, and the one woman
who was doing her wash when I was there didn't use it. She had a bag of
liquid, soap I guess or detergent, that she squeezed so it made a line
on the clothes and iirc she just rubbed the clothes against itself, and
then rinsed it in the sink (the scrubboard). I'm sure each of the 12
places has its own drain, so the water in the middle stays clean, and
indeed it was clean. When the woman needed water, frequently, she
dipped a plastic dishpan in the pool and brought out water.

In 1971, I had a glimpse of women washing clothes in a river, on the
rocks at the edge, the river that divides El Salvador from Honduras on
the PanAm Highway. I guess I was riding and couldn't go back and look
more or take a picture. The paragraph above is better.

On the left side (move the view to see better, though it's 5 steps down
from the street) were those men I was talking about who were filling
their 10 gallon plastic bottles with water. The water, from a 2"
plastic pipe, seemed to run constantly. The man closest to the pipe
was in charge of noticing when the "bottle" was getting full and
changing to the next bottle, but when his two were full he would take
them away, to his home I'm sure, and another guy sat there. They didn't
mind my taking pictures.

Livingston has no roads that go to it. You have to take a boat. These
days there are 5 or 6 or more boats a day from Rio Dulce and two other
towns. Most of those on my boat were not tourists.

I have a Shell Oil map from 1960. Rio Dulce didn't exist then, nor did
any road go to where it is now.
>>
>> **Even though google translate doesn't list pila to mean pool.
>>
>>
>> At home. I can always start Chrome on rare occasions when I want to use
>> the microphone to imput words to translate.

Paul wrote on Mon, 5 Feb 2024 11:06:45 -0500 :

> The only Widget sample I have on my system, is News and Interests,
> which is an App without App decorations around the edges.

Have you ever installed a special appref-ms file on Microsoft Windows?

I once installed "this thing" on my system, but is it a program or app
or something that Microsoft seems to be calling an "appref-ms" instead?
https://github.com/teamclouday/AndroidMic
https://github.com/teamclouday/AndroidMic/tree/main?tab=readme-ov-file#readme
https://github.com/teamclouday/AndroidMic/releases/download/2.0.0/release.zip

It created a shortcut whose target is an "*.appref-ms", whatever that is.
C:\path_to\AndroidMic.appref-ms

A search on "*.appref-ms" shows it's something strange to Microsoft.
https://extensionfile.net/open/appref-ms/
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/10766334/how-to-find-the-target-exe-file-of-appref-ms
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/some-programs-have-been-converted-to-appref-ms/4c8f1628-7208-41c4-be09-d6675ad6d33b

But what is it?
Is it a program? A widget? An app?

Or something new, called an "appref-ms"?

On 2/7/2024 10:48 PM, Andrew wrote:
> Paul wrote on Mon, 5 Feb 2024 11:06:45 -0500 :
>
>> The only Widget sample I have on my system, is News and Interests,
>> which is an App without App decorations around the edges.
>
> Have you ever installed a special appref-ms file on Microsoft Windows?
>
> I once installed "this thing" on my system, but is it a program or app
> or something that Microsoft seems to be calling an "appref-ms" instead?
> https://github.com/teamclouday/AndroidMic
> https://github.com/teamclouday/AndroidMic/tree/main?tab=readme-ov-file#readme
> https://github.com/teamclouday/AndroidMic/releases/download/2.0.0/release.zip
>
> It created a shortcut whose target is an "*.appref-ms", whatever that is.
> C:\path_to\AndroidMic.appref-ms
>
> A search on "*.appref-ms" shows it's something strange to Microsoft.
> https://extensionfile.net/open/appref-ms/
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/10766334/how-to-find-the-target-exe-file-of-appref-ms
> https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/some-programs-have-been-converted-to-appref-ms/4c8f1628-7208-41c4-be09-d6675ad6d33b
>
> But what is it?
> Is it a program? A widget? An app?
>
> Or something new, called an "appref-ms"?
>

https://github.com/teamclouday/AndroidMic/blob/main/Windows/Experimental/Experimental.csproj

<ItemGroup>
<None Include="App.config" />
<None Include="packages.config" />
</ItemGroup>

The latency through the regular audio profile on Bluetooth,
is something like 245 milliseconds. There is a newer audio profile
with a 40 millisecond latency, but this is basically never
going to happen on any "ordinary" Windows computer (the Windows
profile support is never going to have that, not ever). It's possible
a third party BT stack could have it.

Microsoft likes to keep redefining how application manifests are
stored. Maybe the file you reference, has something to do with that.

Paul

Paul wrote on Thu, 8 Feb 2024 00:20:33 -0500 :

> https://github.com/teamclouday/AndroidMic/blob/main/Windows/Experimental/Experimental.csproj
>
> <ItemGroup>
> <None Include="App.config" />
> <None Include="packages.config" />
> </ItemGroup>

I wish I understood what you wrote, but I simply do not.
I just wanted to know what this brand new Microsoft "appref-ms" file stuff is.

When I installed AndroidMic, the application went somewhere
but I still don't know where it installed itself because the
shortcut isn't like any shortcut I've ever seen before.

This is what the shortcut three tabs look like.
https://i.postimg.cc/vThHc47t/appref-ms.jpg

First of all the shortcut has no TARGET.
It has a General, Security & Details tab.

The shortcut simply has a "Location" in the "General" tab.
C:\Users\user\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Quick Launch\User Pinned\TaskBar

The shortcut has an "Object name" in the "Security" tab.
C:\Users\user\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Quick Launch\User Pinned\TaskBar\AndroidMic.appref-ms

The shortcut has that "Location" again in the "Details" tab.
C:\Users\user\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Quick Launch\User Pinned\TaskBar

> The latency through the regular audio profile on Bluetooth,
> is something like 245 milliseconds.

For this question, what the application does, doesn't matter.
The question is what the heck is an "appref-ms" file anyway?

What is an APPREF-MS file?
Application reference file used by ClickOnce, a Microsoft platform used to
deploy and run remote Web applications; contains a local or remote link to
an application; commonly used to enable links from the Windows Start Menu.

More Information
APPREF-MS file and their corresponding .APPLICATION files are enabled by the
Microsoft .NET framework. When an APPREF-MS file is activated from a Web
hyperlink, ClickOnce can check for updates, make installations, and run a
program.

shemp13@outlook.com wrote on Thu, 8 Feb 2024 15:53:58 GMT :

> What is an APPREF-MS file?
> Application reference file used by ClickOnce, a Microsoft platform used to
> deploy and run remote Web applications; contains a local or remote link to
> an application; commonly used to enable links from the Windows Start Menu.
>
> More Information
> APPREF-MS file and their corresponding .APPLICATION files are enabled by the
> Microsoft .NET framework. When an APPREF-MS file is activated from a Web
> hyperlink, ClickOnce can check for updates, make installations, and run a
> program.

Yes. Thanks. I saw that from the original post links I had provided.
https://extensionfile.net/open/appref-ms/

But that isn't in a human-readable form, at least not to me it isn't.

It's kind of like a pure technical dictionary meaning.
Versus using the word in context of installation of another app.

For example, I had never heard of "ClickOnce" until I wrote this thread.
Does anyone here have experience with ClickOnce with any other app?

If someone has experience with other appref-ms/clickonce installations,
your experience will be helpful for me (& others) to better understand it.

What experience have others had with appref-ms/clickonce installations?

On 2/8/2024 11:03 AM, Andrew wrote:
> shemp13@outlook.com wrote on Thu, 8 Feb 2024 15:53:58 GMT :
>
>> What is an APPREF-MS file?
>> Application reference file used by ClickOnce, a Microsoft platform used to
>> deploy and run remote Web applications; contains a local or remote link to
>> an application; commonly used to enable links from the Windows Start Menu.
>>
>> More Information
>> APPREF-MS file and their corresponding .APPLICATION files are enabled by the
>> Microsoft .NET framework. When an APPREF-MS file is activated from a Web
>> hyperlink, ClickOnce can check for updates, make installations, and run a
>> program.
>
> Yes. Thanks. I saw that from the original post links I had provided.
> https://extensionfile.net/open/appref-ms/
>
> But that isn't in a human-readable form, at least not to me it isn't.
>
> It's kind of like a pure technical dictionary meaning.
> Versus using the word in context of installation of another app.
>
> For example, I had never heard of "ClickOnce" until I wrote this thread.
> Does anyone here have experience with ClickOnce with any other app?
>
> If someone has experience with other appref-ms/clickonce installations,
> your experience will be helpful for me (& others) to better understand it.
>
> What experience have others had with appref-ms/clickonce installations?
>

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/10766334/how-to-find-the-target-exe-file-of-appref-ms

It's apparently a ClickOnce App.

[Picture] ... of the stackoverflow page

https://i.postimg.cc/dV5Ld83L/click-once-appref.gif

Apps need the ability to update.

sideload (winget)
App Store (microsoftstore)
ClickOnce (essentially a private store, for your updates)

The appref-ms gives the ability to store a URL or similar,
and when the application starts, it checks for updates.

Otherwise, the App part works the usual ways, using its manifest
for loading, using certain (permission denied) areas for
component storage. This is what makes study of the construction,
searching for the gubbins, hard to do.

You can always use nfi.exe to list the component parts.
That's how I'd do it, if I needed "component part" info.

Paul

Paul wrote on Thu, 8 Feb 2024 12:49:33 -0500 :

> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/10766334/how-to-find-the-target-exe-file-of-appref-ms

Yes. Thanks. I had already read that before I posted the question.
You can see that link in the original post.

I read every link found before I asked the question here.
If I had found the answer on the Internet, I wouldn't have asked here.

In particular, that link doesn't answer the question of what the thing is.
It answers the question of how to find the executable which I did try.

> It's apparently a ClickOnce App.

What does that mean when EVERY app is a click once app.
How's that different from a double click once app?

> [Picture] ... of the stackoverflow page
> https://i.postimg.cc/dV5Ld83L/click-once-appref.gif

Yes. I saw that BEFORE I posted. It answers a different question.
It's not asking what it is but where it went.

I did look at where it went though, which is here.
C:\Users\user\AppData\Local\Apps\2.0\N0AR711Q.1VA\PRHK4WQY.TYG\andr..tion_0000000000000000_0002.0000_0bbee2d2e624354e\AndroidMic.exe
(and yes, those doubledots are really there, as can be seen here)
https://i.postimg.cc/ZRn4VZdT/clickonce.jpg

Apparently this strange appref-ms thing installed into an AppData folder.
https://i.postimg.cc/Qxt11WtP/appdata.jpg

Where if you dig down deep enough you finally find the executable.
https://i.postimg.cc/rsdyFcVh/androidmic.jpg

Doesn't this "appref-ms" thing from Microsoft seem strange to you?

> Apps need the ability to update.

All apps have the ability to update, whether they're click once or click
twice apps. So that doesn't tell us anything.
> sideload (winget)
> App Store (microsoftstore)
> ClickOnce (essentially a private store, for your updates)
>
> The appref-ms gives the ability to store a URL or similar,
> and when the application starts, it checks for updates.

All apps can do that.
Whether or not they're these strange new Microsoft appref-ms things.
> Otherwise, the App part works the usual ways, using its manifest
> for loading, using certain (permission denied) areas for
> component storage. This is what makes study of the construction,
> searching for the gubbins, hard to do.
>
> You can always use nfi.exe to list the component parts.
> That's how I'd do it, if I needed "component part" info.

I don't have nfi.exe on my system as it's not native to Windows.
But I googled for it and see that it's described over here.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/resources/archive/v02n05

"Microsoft has released a free tool named NFI (NTFS Information) that
understands and can dump the internal structures of NTFS volumes.
You can download NFI as part of the OEM Support Tools at
http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q253/0/66.asp. Running NFI
with a file name dumps the NTFS MFT record for that file."

From that I can tell it's not going to explain to me in human
understandable terms what these very strange new "appref-ms" files are.

What would be nice is if someone can look in their similar folder
C:\Users\user\AppData\Local\Apps\2.0\N0AR711Q.1VA\PRHK4WQY.TYG

And let me know what other apps they have installed which turned
out to be one of these brand new but very strange "appref-ms" things.

Andrew wrote:

> Doesn't this "appref-ms" thing from Microsoft seem strange to you?.

I'm tempted to file it under "Modern apps" and accept the don't really
want humans to understand how it all hangs together any longer.

> What would be nice is if someone can look in their similar folder
> C:\Users\user\AppData\Local\Apps\2.0\N0AR711Q.1VA\PRHK4WQY.TYG
>
> And let me know what other apps they have installed which turned
> out to be one of these brand new but very strange "appref-ms" things.

I have "C:\Users\Andy\AppData\Local\Apps\2.0\CX4NKDB8.9YL\2D70C5C9.D2W"
but it's empty, apart from a manifests folder.