Am 12.08.23 um 12:48 schrieb Pancho:
> On 12/08/2023 11:46, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 12.08.23 um 12:41 schrieb Jörg Lorenz:
>>> Am 12.08.23 um 12:26 schrieb Pancho:
>>>> Looking at previous postings, it seems about average "on topic" for
>>>> comp.os.linux.misc, it is 100% on topic for comp.sys.raspberry-pi.
>>>>
>>>> I'm interested.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to criticise, there is loads of other shit that we discuss
>>>> that isn't on topic.
>>>
>>> Discussions with fake identities are futile.
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
>>
>> Before and after Covid I have no intention to talk to masked and
>> anonymous people.
>>
>
> Why are you talking to me?

Try to find out yourself.

--
Alea iacta est

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 06:11:10 -0400, Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:

> Am 12.08.23 um 11:55 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>> On 12/08/2023 10:10, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 12.08.23 um 09:43 schrieb Richard Kettlewell:
>>
>>>> At any rate, chatter about the longevity characteristics of storage
>>>> devices seems on topic here to me.
>>>
>>> This is a general hardware question and not of any relevance to Linux in
>>> particular.
>>>
>> If you look at the headers, assuming you can read, you will see that its
>> cross posted to comp.sys.raspberry-pi,
>
> comp.os.linux.misc
>
> Stop this X-posting! Get it?

Trying to police a newsgroup that is not moderated will not work.

If you don't like the discussion filter it out of your feed, either by
poster, or by thread. Complaining will not stop it and just adds to the
noise, or gets your articles filtered out by others.

That's how usenet works.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

On 2023-08-12, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 12/08/2023 11:46, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 12.08.23 um 12:41 schrieb Jörg Lorenz:
>>> Am 12.08.23 um 12:26 schrieb Pancho:
>>>> Looking at previous postings, it seems about average "on topic" for
>>>> comp.os.linux.misc, it is 100% on topic for comp.sys.raspberry-pi.
>>>>
>>>> I'm interested.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to criticise, there is loads of other shit that we discuss
>>>> that isn't on topic.
>>>
>>> Discussions with fake identities are futile.
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
>>
>> Before and after Covid I have no intention to talk to masked and
>> anonymous people.
>>
>
> Well why don't you STFU then?
> You have no way of knowing who here is using their real name, or even if
> they have a real name. Many people have more than one name they commonly
> use.
>
> As for publishing a real email address, you must be bonkers. I have
> enough spam as it is.

Just to add a data point to this more and more ridiculous off-topic meta
discussion, for Usenet purpose only, email address in my From: header,
as well as in my .signature, is quite real and working. I cannot
remember the last time, if ever at all, I received spam email at that
address. Lucky? Maybe.

--
chrispam1@me.com is a filtered spam magnet. Email replies may be lost.
You're better off replying to this newsgroup.

On 2023-08-12 11:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 12/08/2023 10:10, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 12.08.23 um 09:43 schrieb Richard Kettlewell:
>
>>> At any rate, chatter about the longevity characteristics of storage
>>> devices seems on topic here to me.
>>
>> This is a general hardware question and not of any relevance to Linux in
>> particular.
>>
> If you look at the headers, assuming you can read, you will see that its
> cross posted to comp.sys.raspberry-pi, and since all PIs other than the
> Pico run off primarily an SD card, and primarily run Linux, it is of
> extreme relevance to them.
>
> It also touches on aspects of the Linux operating system - its logging,
> and its file system behaviour, and its file cacheing, that are of
> considerable interest to people who may not appreciate how deeply these
> affect its performance.

Absolutely.

>
> Of course if you simply want to gaze at a glass terminal and pretend you
> are back in the days of a PDP11, it's of no interest to you at all.
>
> But don't judge everyone else by your own standards
>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 12/08/2023 12:22, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 12.08.23 um 12:48 schrieb Pancho:
>> On 12/08/2023 11:46, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 12.08.23 um 12:41 schrieb Jörg Lorenz:
>>>> Am 12.08.23 um 12:26 schrieb Pancho:
>>>>> Looking at previous postings, it seems about average "on topic" for
>>>>> comp.os.linux.misc, it is 100% on topic for comp.sys.raspberry-pi.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm interested.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you want to criticise, there is loads of other shit that we discuss
>>>>> that isn't on topic.
>>>>
>>>> Discussions with fake identities are futile.
>>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
>>>
>>> Before and after Covid I have no intention to talk to masked and
>>> anonymous people.
>>>
>>
>> Why are you talking to me?
>
> Try to find out yourself.
>
I don't feel it would be worth ones while.
--
It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
for the voice of the kingdom.

Jonathan Swift

Am 12.08.23 um 13:23 schrieb David W. Hodgins:
> Trying to police a newsgroup that is not moderated will not work.

Sure. I made my point clear in the first answer to the OP.
But so many users thought they had to add something meaningful.

Case is closed for me now and the OP is (again) in my killfile. I will
always react to anonymous and impolite wisenheimers the way they deserve
in my opinion.

> If you don't like the discussion filter it out of your feed, either by
> poster, or by thread. Complaining will not stop it and just adds to the
> noise, or gets your articles filtered out by others.

What I observe since I participate in the usenet Anglosaxons often weigh
free speech higher than a minimum standard of decency and politeness
that helps to increase their credibility.

> That's how usenet works.

Believe me, after 22 years in the global usenet I know how it works.
Unmoderated Usenet is much more beneficial to all of us if the regulars
are very disciplined.

--
Alea iacta est

In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/08/2023 22:33, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 11.08.23 um 23:07 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>> Oh? You think that unsolicited information about Linux and
>>> rasberry Pis is spam, in linux and raspberry Pi newsgroups? What
>>> on earth do you think that spam acrually IS?
>>
>> Postings from anonymous Trolls with fake identities.
>>
> No-one could possibly be called Jörg Lorenz.

Jörg earned a permanent position in my kill file by being a complete
arsehole. This entire meta discussion indicates that the mentally
disturbed individual behind the nym remains just as much an arsehole
now as then.

Best to just killfile it and more along.

On 12/08/2023 15:29, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> What I observe since I participate in the usenet Anglosaxons often weigh
> free speech higher than a minimum standard of decency and politeness
> that helps to increase their credibility.
>
What a pompous prick.

--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

On 12/08/2023 16:08, Rich wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 11/08/2023 22:33, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 11.08.23 um 23:07 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>>> Oh? You think that unsolicited information about Linux and
>>>> rasberry Pis is spam, in linux and raspberry Pi newsgroups? What
>>>> on earth do you think that spam acrually IS?
>>>
>>> Postings from anonymous Trolls with fake identities.
>>>
>> No-one could possibly be called Jörg Lorenz.
>
> Jörg earned a permanent position in my kill file by being a complete
> arsehole. This entire meta discussion indicates that the mentally
> disturbed individual behind the nym remains just as much an arsehole
> now as then.
>
> Best to just killfile it and more along.

One investigates to see if there is any sanity behind the mask. Then
moves on. There is none.

--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

On 12/08/23 11:10, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 12.08.23 um 09:43 schrieb Richard Kettlewell:
>> Pancho <Pancho.Jones@Proton.Me> writes:
>>> On 8/11/23 22:33, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>> Am 11.08.23 um 23:07 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>>>> Oh? You think that unsolicited information about Linux and rasberry
>>>>> Pis is spam, in linux and raspberry Pi newsgroups? What on earth do
>>>>> you think that spam acrually IS?
>>>> Postings from anonymous Trolls with fake identities.
>>>
>>> When is an identity real, and when is it fake?
>>>
>>> Surely it is only fake if it is pretending to be someone, or
>>> something, it is not.
>>
>> TNP’s been consistently posting under the same identity since, hmm, the
>> 1990s I think? I think I’d call it a nom de plume.
>>
>> At any rate, chatter about the longevity characteristics of storage
>> devices seems on topic here to me.
>
> This is a general hardware question and not of any relevance to Linux in
> particular.
I completely disagree, since he, after a technical
discussion (to prove the conclusions), went on to give
useful advices specific to Linux, i.g. the one about
"noatime" mount option, and the stuff about logging on a ram
disk.
You seem to be polemising for misterious reasons

>
--
1) Resistere, resistere, resistere.
2) Se tutti pagano le tasse, le tasse le pagano tutti
MarioCCCP

In comp.os.linux.misc 23k.304 <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote:
> In any case, SDs are "smart" devices, they have a
> controller to manage various needs. They are not
> just "stupid" memory space even though they try
> to *appear* as such to the user.
>
> A few of my applications involve like a DECADE
> of reliability. As such the hidden tricks of SDs
> becomes relevant (as do memory leaks).

At the point where you _need_ something to work for a decade, it's
probably worth looking at industrial SD cards rather than
off-the-shelf ones. These are commonly characterised by using SLC
flash, which trades storage capacity for more write cycles.

NAND flash types:
https://www.kingston.com/en/blog/pc-performance/difference-between-slc-mlc-tlc-3d-nand

The datasheet for this SLC SD card describes the controller's
reliability features (including wear levelling):
https://docs.rs-online.com/29d1/0900766b815d5fe1.pdf
(pages 11 & 12)

Here's sales info from another industrial SD card manufacturer, who
elsewhere also advertise SD cards with an "advanced wear levelling
algorithm":
https://www.atpinc.com/blog/industrial-sd-cards-factors-requirements-to-consider

I'm not sure whether the industrial SD card controllers really do
much more for increasing longevity in a read-only application
though.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 2023-08-12, Chris Schram <chrispam1@me.com> wrote:
> On 2023-08-12, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 12/08/2023 11:46, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 12.08.23 um 12:41 schrieb Jörg Lorenz:
>>>> Am 12.08.23 um 12:26 schrieb Pancho:
>>>>> Looking at previous postings, it seems about average "on topic" for
>>>>> comp.os.linux.misc, it is 100% on topic for comp.sys.raspberry-pi.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm interested.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you want to criticise, there is loads of other shit that we discuss
>>>>> that isn't on topic.
>>>>
>>>> Discussions with fake identities are futile.
>>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
>>>
>>> Before and after Covid I have no intention to talk to masked and
>>> anonymous people.
>>>
>>
>> Well why don't you STFU then?
>> You have no way of knowing who here is using their real name, or even if
>> they have a real name. Many people have more than one name they commonly
>> use.
>>
>> As for publishing a real email address, you must be bonkers. I have
>> enough spam as it is.
>
> Just to add a data point to this more and more ridiculous off-topic meta
> discussion, for Usenet purpose only, email address in my From: header,
> as well as in my .signature, is quite real and working. I cannot
> remember the last time, if ever at all, I received spam email at that
> address. Lucky? Maybe.

And to add another data point: I get a few spam messages per day
at the real, live email address in my signature. Until recently,
I used my email service provider's spam filter to get rid of the
repeat offenders but switched to a home-grown filter program
after I got blasted with several per day from random-ish invalid
domain names. Having "spamtrap" in the name field seems to help.

--
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

On 13/08/2023 01:40, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

> At the point where you _need_ something to work for a decade, it's
> probably worth looking at industrial SD cards rather than
> off-the-shelf ones. These are commonly characterised by using SLC
> flash, which trades storage capacity for more write cycles.
>
> NAND flash types:
> https://www.kingston.com/en/blog/pc-performance/difference-between-slc-mlc-tlc-3d-nand
>
> The datasheet for this SLC SD card describes the controller's
> reliability features (including wear levelling):
> https://docs.rs-online.com/29d1/0900766b815d5fe1.pdf
> (pages 11 & 12)
>
> Here's sales info from another industrial SD card manufacturer, who
> elsewhere also advertise SD cards with an "advanced wear levelling
> algorithm":
> https://www.atpinc.com/blog/industrial-sd-cards-factors-requirements-to-consider
>
> I'm not sure whether the industrial SD card controllers really do
> much more for increasing longevity in a read-only application
> though.
>

Indeed. It does seem that with the price of computing power falling so
massively, there is little reason *not* to add wear levelling to SD
cards. Which ultimately renders them as reliable as any other NAND based
flash device.

My interest is, as always, to understand just enough to get the job
done, which in this case means I want about 10-15 years of reliable
operation on a 24x7 basis.

Having noted that in normal operation as far as I have built it, the
unit is not accessing its SD card AT ALL apart from a daily write to
some logs, I think that there I will stop.

There happens to be a sufficiency of RAM to regard the SD card
essentially as EAROM.

That will do nicely.

--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Doing the research reveals  the true case about wear on flash memory
> style devices and that is that substantially reads do *not* damage the
> cells at all, at least no more than reading, say, DRAM. It is block
> erases and writes that do a

Hence the primary metric for SSD longevity is TBW (terabytes written).

On 8/12/23 8:40 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.misc 23k.304 <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote:
>> In any case, SDs are "smart" devices, they have a
>> controller to manage various needs. They are not
>> just "stupid" memory space even though they try
>> to *appear* as such to the user.
>>
>> A few of my applications involve like a DECADE
>> of reliability. As such the hidden tricks of SDs
>> becomes relevant (as do memory leaks).
>
> At the point where you _need_ something to work for a decade, it's
> probably worth looking at industrial SD cards rather than
> off-the-shelf ones. These are commonly characterised by using SLC
> flash, which trades storage capacity for more write cycles.

Those are pretty good. However within a certain range
I still rec FRAM. It's REALLY good and you can get I2C
or SPI interface. Capacity, alas, is a bit limited. But,
if your app requires keeping track of peak figures,
current state and such ... things that ARE going to change
a fair bit but MUST be remembered between reboots .......
if you want a decade you don't use SD or on-chip flash.

> NAND flash types:
> https://www.kingston.com/en/blog/pc-performance/difference-between-slc-mlc-tlc-3d-nand
>
> The datasheet for this SLC SD card describes the controller's
> reliability features (including wear levelling):
> https://docs.rs-online.com/29d1/0900766b815d5fe1.pdf
> (pages 11 & 12)
>
> Here's sales info from another industrial SD card manufacturer, who
> elsewhere also advertise SD cards with an "advanced wear levelling
> algorithm":
> https://www.atpinc.com/blog/industrial-sd-cards-factors-requirements-to-consider
>
> I'm not sure whether the industrial SD card controllers really do
> much more for increasing longevity in a read-only application
> though.

Well, as mentioned, there may be "sneak" writes of
various kinds. Those who make distros for PIs and
such TRY to shift everything off into RAM but they
can MISS stuff, or discount "lesser" stresses on
SD. The focus of such distros is still aimed more
at "hobbyists" than "industrial" and they make
judgements accordingly.

On 8/13/23 3:33 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 13/08/2023 01:40, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>
>> At the point where you _need_ something to work for a decade, it's
>> probably worth looking at industrial SD cards rather than
>> off-the-shelf ones. These are commonly characterised by using SLC
>> flash, which trades storage capacity for more write cycles.
>>
>> NAND flash types:
>> https://www.kingston.com/en/blog/pc-performance/difference-between-slc-mlc-tlc-3d-nand
>>
>>
>> The datasheet for this SLC SD card describes the controller's
>> reliability features (including wear levelling):
>> https://docs.rs-online.com/29d1/0900766b815d5fe1.pdf
>> (pages 11 & 12)
>>
>> Here's sales info from another industrial SD card manufacturer, who
>> elsewhere also advertise SD cards with an "advanced wear levelling
>> algorithm":
>> https://www.atpinc.com/blog/industrial-sd-cards-factors-requirements-to-consider
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure whether the industrial SD card controllers really do
>> much more for increasing longevity in a read-only application
>> though.
>>
>
> Indeed. It does seem that with the price of computing power falling so
> massively, there is little reason *not* to add wear levelling to SD
> cards. Which ultimately renders them as reliable as any other NAND based
> flash device.
>
> My interest is, as always, to understand just enough to get the job
> done, which in this case means I want about 10-15 years of reliable
> operation on a 24x7 basis.
>
> Having noted that in normal operation as far as I have built it, the
> unit is not accessing its SD card AT ALL apart from a daily write to
> some logs, I think that there I will stop.
>
> There happens to be a sufficiency of RAM to regard the SD card
> essentially as EAROM.
>
> That will do nicely.

I wrote a multi-channel environmental monitor for "field"
use a few years ago. It took 12 samples per hour. Does not
sound like much, but it adds up. The device also HAD to
store a lot of high/low and random params which could
change every sample.

For that I chose I2C FRAM. No wait states, effectively
unlimited re-writes. Better than SD or on-chip EEPROM.

This is NOT a solution for jamming an entire OS into
unless it's DOS 2.x but you (and hopefully the distro
writers) do your best to shift all the OS stuff into
RAM and kinda hope for the best. The params in the FRAM
take care of reboots, save "the state".

In comp.sys.raspberry-pi Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 12.08.23 um 11:55 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>> On 12/08/2023 10:10, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 12.08.23 um 09:43 schrieb Richard Kettlewell:
>>
>>>> At any rate, chatter about the longevity characteristics of storage
>>>> devices seems on topic here to me.
>>>
>>> This is a general hardware question and not of any relevance to Linux in
>>> particular.
>>>
>> If you look at the headers, assuming you can read, you will see that its
>> cross posted to comp.sys.raspberry-pi,
>
> comp.os.linux.misc
>
> Stop this X-posting! Get it?

The horse is dead. Quit beating it. If you find a topic annoying, killfile
it. (You do know how to use your newsreader's killfile facility, right?)

FWIW, I find you more annoying than this topic, so...

** PLONK ***

--
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 12:41:31 +0200, in <ub7nkr$bgb$1@solani.org>, Jörg
Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:

>Am 12.08.23 um 12:26 schrieb Pancho:
>> Looking at previous postings, it seems about average "on topic" for
>> comp.os.linux.misc, it is 100% on topic for comp.sys.raspberry-pi.
>>
>> I'm interested.
>>
>> If you want to criticise, there is loads of other shit that we discuss
>> that isn't on topic.
>
>Discussions with fake identities are futile.
>The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>

After many years I've discovered that those complaining about a non de
plume vs a real name, and esp a working email address, are only trolls
looking for info to allow harassing the poster via other means.
--
Jim H

On 2023-08-11 17:48, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 11.08.23 um 17:21 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>> On 11/08/2023 13:24, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 11.08.23 um 11:54 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>>> Doing the research reveals the true case about wear on flash memory
>>>> style devices and that is that substantially reads do *not* damage the
>>>> cells at all, at least no more than reading, say, DRAM. It is block
>>>> erases and writes that do and so, paradoxically, when used as a PROM,
>>>> probably wear levelling is entirely unnecessary. And if done
>>>> gratuitously may actually reduce lifetime. By 'gratuitously;, I mean
>>>> that it is done when there is no write operation in progress.
>>>> I cannot see any reason why one would shuffle blocks around *except* as
>>>> a result of a write operation, however.
>>>>
>>>> There appears to be one aspect of read operations that *does* disturb
>>>> the data (read distrurbance), and that is that read operations can
>>>> minutely affect the state of physically adjacent but unread cells.
>>>> However this is generally at least an order of magnitude below write
>>>> damage, and is normally dealt with by error correction.
>>>>
>>>> So smart SSDS with good wear levelling will *occasionally* rewrite read
>>>> only blocks, but this is in terms of hundreds of thousands of reads.
>>>>
>>>> In my particular application the reads to reasonably static
>>>> configuration files will exceed 32 million per annum, or rather they
>>>> would *without disk caching*...
>>>>
>>>> Now I am unaware as to how long Linux will regard a read only file that
>>>> is fully cached (my files are less than 1kBytes) as valid. I cannot
>>>> see *any* reason why re-reading file data that the operating systems
>>>> *knows* has not changed, would result in any actual 'physical' reads to
>>>> the SD card *at all*.
>>>>
>>>> And in fact in my particular application one code and data is loaded,
>>>> even changing the configurations files should not result in a physical
>>>> read, as the disk cache itself used to do the writing will retain the
>>>> information.
>>>>
>>>> I think the summary of all of this research is significant for PI users
>>>> running Linux in what may be generally classed as 'read often, write
>>>> seldom' accesses to an SD card, and that is that by far and away the
>>>> greatest protection the card has is the Linux disk buffering algorithm
>>>> itself, provided that constant reads do not exceed its capacity. In a
>>>> typical 24x7 applications there is no reason why, post boot, any SD
>>>> reads should happen *at all*, once the disk cache is full. It also shows
>>>> the absolutely vital role that '-noatime' plays in protecting read only
>>>> files that are read continuously from producing unwanted writes.
>>>>
>>>> As far as writes go there will (nearly) always be a 1:1 correlation
>>>> eventually between writes to the linux file system and writes to the SD
>>>> card: The exception being data that us rewritten to the same disk file
>>>> cache before it gets flushed to physical storage.
>>>>
>>>> So the general rule in utilising the SD card in the most effective
>>>> manner, is to reduce writes to a minimum by firstly mounting the card
>>>> -noatime, and secondly using RAM disks to do any logging that you can't
>>>> turn off, and for all operations where ephemeral data are being recorded
>>>> and read, but which do not need to survive a reboot. Then, having a
>>>> superfluity of RAM available for disk caching will reduce SD *reads* to
>>>> essentially zero. No matter how often the file system is accessed by the
>>>> application.
>>>>
>>>> And in fact using iostat on my running application shows no (physical)
>>>> reads or writes *AT ALL*. As evinced by the rock steady light on the Pi
>>>> Zero.
>>>
>>> What exactly is your question?
>>>
>> My question is "Why did you think that a post has to be a question?"
>
> Because the posting otherwise is unsoliceted spam?

Not correct.

As we are in a Linux group, you might remember that Linus posted his
first kernel here (on comp.os.minix) and it was not a question.

>
>> This is information for Pi people using SD cards. Condensing a mornings
>> research into some general practical conclusions.
>>
>> If you are not interested in it, just skip it.
>
> I'll ask when I am interested.
>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

.
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Weird code crash
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 06:23:15 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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Message-ID: <udu5c4$2gutd$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 05:23:16 -0000 (UTC)
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logging-data="2653101"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+XjoAbi9Y8WnSfT/3f9DoioZnTam4daVo="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
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Xref: rslight comp.os.linux.misc:12284 comp.sys.raspberry-pi:8021

I don't expect people to know the answer, but I could use some help in
puzzling out where to look.

I had a power cut that did leave my network a bit sketchy and it took
two reboots on this desktop to get back to normal. This may or may not
be relevant.

But my question refers to my Pi Zero W server I am developing.

It came up, ok, but then after a while my relay daemon crashed...

Sep 13 11:26:36 heating-controller systemd[1]: relayd.service: Main
process exit
ed, code=killed, status=6/ABRT
Sep 13 11:26:36 heating-controller systemd[1]: relayd.service: Failed
with resul
t 'signal'.
Sep 13 11:26:36 heating-controller systemd[1]: relayd.service: Consumed
15.074s
CPU time.

I rebooted it, and after awhile - about ten minutes, it happened again -
that is the above trace.

I restarted it manually, and it hasn't crashed since.

The web is flooded with instances of this messaqe all on different
platforms and applications, and it would appear this is a very generic
message possibly to do with memory issues.

One person 'fixed' it by changing CPUs...
Now *as far as I know* there was nothing special about the data the
daemon would be operating on it this point to cause it to crash. I am
fairly sure I have no memory leaks in it - in normal operation it
strdups() and frees() and opens and closes files... and 'top' shows
memory usage is rock steady.

One possibility is that it is opening and reading a file at the precise
time another process is writing it...in both cases the read and write
operations are atomic and done with C code.

READ
====
fp=fopen(fullname, "r");
len=fread(filbuf,1,255,fp); // read entire file

WRITE
=====
fp=fopen(filename, "w");
if (fp)
{
fprintf(fp,"%s%s\n",filedata,timestamp);
fclose(fp);
}

Could this cause a problem?

I tend to suspect some sort of asynchronous timing issue because it is
such a rare occurrence. I have been utterly unable to make it happen on
demand...

--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.
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From: Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Limiting the capacity of SD cards for the pi
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:21:47 +0100
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Xref: rslight comp.sys.raspberry-pi:8021

In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/08/2023 13:24, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 11.08.23 um 11:54 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
[snip long research summary]
>>>
>>> And in fact using iostat on my running application shows no (physical)
>>> reads or writes *AT ALL*. As evinced by the rock steady light on the Pi
>>> Zero.
>>
>> What exactly is your question?
>>
> My question is "Why did you think that a post has to be a question?"

Well, you were responded to by Jörg -- it has a mental defect where it
can't help but be a prime asshole. That mental defect earned it a
permanant position in my killfile. I only saw it's response because of
your response.

> This is information for Pi people using SD cards. Condensing a mornings
> research into some general practical conclusions.

And condensing a few hundred scattered individual articles in the two
groups into a single place for future reference. It was a useful
summary post, even if Jörg had an issue.

> If you are not interested in it, just skip it.

Indeed, some can't seem to 'get' that simple bit of logic into their
thick heads.
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From: Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Weird code crash
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 07:09:15 +0100
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Xref: rslight comp.os.linux.misc:12284 comp.sys.raspberry-pi:8022

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 06:23:15 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> One possibility is that it is opening and reading a file at the precise
> time another process is writing it...in both cases the read and write
> operations are atomic and done with C code.
>
> READ
> ====
> fp=fopen(fullname, "r");

Anything opened with fopen is a buffered stream operations on it
are not atomic so yes it is very possible for the read to see a partially
written file. To avoid the race you need to use some kind of locking.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency
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From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Limiting the capacity of SD cards for the pi
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:41:13 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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On 20/09/2023 13:46, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <ueenp9$2u313$1@dont-email.me>,
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 20/09/2023 13:09, Bob Latham wrote:
>>> cd/media/usb-drive/
>
>> Thats your problem Lady.
>
>> cd /
>> THEN
>> umount
>
>> You cant unmount a drive you are sitting in
>
> Are you saying that's why it doesn't seem to have done anything even
> though I eventually typed
> # cd
> before umount. It then appeared to dismount to me?
>

That's right. If you are sitting on the mounted mount point, it cant get
off!
It will say 'busy'

> Or are you just confirming my brain wobble was correct?
>

Not sure which wobble that was...

> Bob.
>

--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

.
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From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: pi5!
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:15:41 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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On 13/10/2023 09:18, nev young wrote:
> On 12/10/2023 11:21, Louis Northmore wrote:
>> If you're a Pi lover you're going ot love the pi5! It's 2-3 times
>> faster than a
>> pi4 which is super nice.
>> Looking forward to upgrading my pi nodes in my cluster and checking
>> out the
>> performance.
>>
>> https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-5/
>>
>>
> A nice evolution of the Pi.
>
> I would rather see a Pi that will run for 7 days from 4xAA.
>
I am building one that I hope will run for a year from 3xAA

> I accept most folk want faster and faster still, but I would like
> battery powered and long time running for my wild-life cameras.
>
Cameras eat watts. Invest in serious LIPO packs or lead acid batteries

--
“A leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
“We did this ourselves.”

― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

.
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Xref: rslight comp.sys.raspberry-pi:8022

On 11/08/2023 16:48, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 11.08.23 um 17:21 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>> On 11/08/2023 13:24, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 11.08.23 um 11:54 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>>> Doing the research reveals the true case about wear on flash memory
>>>> style devices and that is that substantially reads do *not* damage the
>>>> cells at all, at least no more than reading, say, DRAM. It is block
>>>> erases and writes that do and so, paradoxically, when used as a PROM,
>>>> probably wear levelling is entirely unnecessary. And if done
>>>> gratuitously may actually reduce lifetime. By 'gratuitously;, I mean
>>>> that it is done when there is no write operation in progress.
>>>> I cannot see any reason why one would shuffle blocks around *except* as
>>>> a result of a write operation, however.
>>>>
>>>> There appears to be one aspect of read operations that *does* disturb
>>>> the data (read distrurbance), and that is that read operations can
>>>> minutely affect the state of physically adjacent but unread cells.
>>>> However this is generally at least an order of magnitude below write
>>>> damage, and is normally dealt with by error correction.
>>>>
>>>> So smart SSDS with good wear levelling will *occasionally* rewrite read
>>>> only blocks, but this is in terms of hundreds of thousands of reads.
>>>>
>>>> In my particular application the reads to reasonably static
>>>> configuration files will exceed 32 million per annum, or rather they
>>>> would *without disk caching*...
>>>>
>>>> Now I am unaware as to how long Linux will regard a read only file that
>>>> is fully cached (my files are less than 1kBytes) as valid. I cannot
>>>> see *any* reason why re-reading file data that the operating systems
>>>> *knows* has not changed, would result in any actual 'physical' reads to
>>>> the SD card *at all*.
>>>>
>>>> And in fact in my particular application one code and data is loaded,
>>>> even changing the configurations files should not result in a physical
>>>> read, as the disk cache itself used to do the writing will retain the
>>>> information.
>>>>
>>>> I think the summary of all of this research is significant for PI users
>>>> running Linux in what may be generally classed as 'read often, write
>>>> seldom' accesses to an SD card, and that is that by far and away the
>>>> greatest protection the card has is the Linux disk buffering algorithm
>>>> itself, provided that constant reads do not exceed its capacity. In a
>>>> typical 24x7 applications there is no reason why, post boot, any SD
>>>> reads should happen *at all*, once the disk cache is full. It also shows
>>>> the absolutely vital role that '-noatime' plays in protecting read only
>>>> files that are read continuously from producing unwanted writes.
>>>>
>>>> As far as writes go there will (nearly) always be a 1:1 correlation
>>>> eventually between writes to the linux file system and writes to the SD
>>>> card: The exception being data that us rewritten to the same disk file
>>>> cache before it gets flushed to physical storage.
>>>>
>>>> So the general rule in utilising the SD card in the most effective
>>>> manner, is to reduce writes to a minimum by firstly mounting the card
>>>> -noatime, and secondly using RAM disks to do any logging that you can't
>>>> turn off, and for all operations where ephemeral data are being recorded
>>>> and read, but which do not need to survive a reboot. Then, having a
>>>> superfluity of RAM available for disk caching will reduce SD *reads* to
>>>> essentially zero. No matter how often the file system is accessed by the
>>>> application.
>>>>
>>>> And in fact using iostat on my running application shows no (physical)
>>>> reads or writes *AT ALL*. As evinced by the rock steady light on the Pi
>>>> Zero.
>>>
>>> What exactly is your question?
>>>
>> My question is "Why did you think that a post has to be a question?"
>
> Because the posting otherwise is unsoliceted spam?
>
Oh? You think that unsolicited information about Linux and rasberry Pis
is spam, in linux and raspberry Pi newsgroups?
What on earth do you think that spam acrually IS?

>> This is information for Pi people using SD cards. Condensing a mornings
>> research into some general practical conclusions.
>>
>> If you are not interested in it, just skip it.
>
> I'll ask when I am interested.
>
Well, next time why not shut the fuck up when you are not.

You don't get to decide policy.

All you have is a keyboard and a killfile. It's very democratic. You can
only create your own safe space, you cant dictate it for anyone else

--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

.
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From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Weird code crash
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 07:57:45 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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On 14/09/2023 07:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 06:23:15 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> One possibility is that it is opening and reading a file at the precise
>> time another process is writing it...in both cases the read and write
>> operations are atomic and done with C code.
>>
>> READ
>> ====
>> fp=fopen(fullname, "r");
>
> Anything opened with fopen is a buffered stream operations on it
> are not atomic so yes it is very possible for the read to see a partially
> written file. To avoid the race you need to use some kind of locking.
>
Hmm.

Howver I think that for small operations one would have to posit a time
between fopen() and fread() in which the file 'disappears' in some
sense. Burt I 8thought* that a file handle once issued would not point
to empty data, and that in fact fopen('w") would in fact create a new
file and the old would not get unlinked until it was 'fclosed'
--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

.
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From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Limiting the capacity of SD cards for the pi
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:41:35 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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Am 11.08.23 um 23:07 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
> Oh? You think that unsolicited information about Linux and rasberry Pis
> is spam, in linux and raspberry Pi newsgroups?
> What on earth do you think that spam acrually IS?

Postings from anonymous Trolls with fake identities.

--
Alea iacta est

.
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From: Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Weird code crash
Date: 14 Sep 2023 08:36:07 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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Xref: rslight comp.os.linux.misc:12284 comp.sys.raspberry-pi:8024

In comp.sys.raspberry-pi The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Sep 13 11:26:36 heating-controller systemd[1]: relayd.service: Main
> process exit
> ed, code=killed, status=6/ABRT
> Sep 13 11:26:36 heating-controller systemd[1]: relayd.service: Failed
> with resul
> t 'signal'.
> Sep 13 11:26:36 heating-controller systemd[1]: relayd.service: Consumed
> 15.074s
> CPU time.
>
> I rebooted it, and after awhile - about ten minutes, it happened again -
> that is the above trace.
>
> I restarted it manually, and it hasn't crashed since.
>
> The web is flooded with instances of this messaqe all on different
> platforms and applications, and it would appear this is a very generic
> message possibly to do with memory issues.

You're getting SIGABRT which is typically something bailing due to memory
corruption, eg corrupting metadata so that malloc can't work, or a
double-free.

I would compile it with debugging enabled: '-g' or '-ggdb' flag to your
compiler. Then run it under gdb:

$ gdb ./myprog
(gdb) run

and see if it dies. If it does you can get a backtrace to indicate where
the fault occurred:

(gdb) bt

It may be that starting it under systemd is different in some way that it
doesn't show up when running it by hand. You could try setting as your
systemd command:

gdb -ex run -ex bt --args /usr/local/bin/myprog arg1 arg2

which will run it and then dump a backtrace when it's finished. You may get
'no stack' if it succeeded and didn't record one.

Theo
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From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Limiting the capacity of SD cards for the pi
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:43:02 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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On 20/09/2023 14:15, Tauno Voipio wrote:
> On 19.9.2023 13.16, Chris Elvidge wrote:
>> On 19/09/2023 08:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 18/09/2023 20:54, druck wrote:
>>>> On 18/09/2023 09:29, Ian wrote:
>>>>> If you log in as "root", or get a root shell by calling "sudo bash",
>>>>> things work as expected:
>>>>
>>>> sudo -i
>>>>
>>>> is quicker to type.
>>>>
>>>> ---druck
>>>>
>>> su - is even quicker
>>>
>>
>> 'su -' needs a password entered (on my system(s))
>
>
> So should all other methods to aquire superuser privileges.
>
> There seems to be around RaspiOS setups with one user
> permitted in the /etc/sudoers without password.
>
Well, being linux, you have the choice. If you want to run the whole
shebang as root, you can!
--
“I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the
greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of
conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which
they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

― Leo Tolstoy

.
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From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: PCBs available
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:35:44 +0100
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On 13/10/2023 10:18, Theo wrote:
> Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:
>> I assumed it was a standard board. A 5v/240v relay is a common
>> requirement. I used a very similar board, before I switched to using
>> Shelly/Sonoff type devices. It even had 4 relays, when I only wanted one.
>
> Chinese relay boards aren't uncommon, eg:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/262499095094
>
> - on that one there are optocouplers between the inputs and the relay coils,
> for some reason (maybe they were cheaper than transistors, or they really
> don't trust the relays' isolation?)
>
> The nice thing about TNP's board is there's a mains to 5V converter on
> board, which means you can power the board from the mains that you're
> switching. Otherwise you need to arrange for a separate DC power supply,
> and that gets annoying in a tight space - with this board you don't need a
> separate power supply for the Pi.
>
> Theo

Yes. I was going to cobble it all together from hats, but then it all
seemed messy.
If I had thought a bit more I could have made a bigger board and put the
zero actually ON the main PCB, and eliminated the 6 way plug...

I am considering just that for the next part of all this - the oil tank
ultrasonic level sensor which needs a battery holder, a micropower timer
to fire the PI Pico up every hour and then shut it down, and the
ultrasonic transducers. Plus two resistors to drop the supply voltage to
something the PICO ADC can handle.

It seems that the place that does the board just does a whole big sheet
of copper pcb at one price, so ordering just one doesn't happen. I think
this was $40 for ten boards.

Now I don't want a million oil tank sensors, but frankly $40 for a
single proto board is OK so if I get another 20 thrown in, they will be
up for grabs too.

I am not claiming that I can get my discrete parts count down to a mass
produced surface mounted HAT, because I cant. But the heating
controller has to 'see me out' and this looks to be a reasonably
professional way to use my skills and what eyesight and manual dexterity
I have left to make a solution that exactly fits what I want.

On 8/11/23 22:33, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 11.08.23 um 23:07 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>> Oh? You think that unsolicited information about Linux and rasberry Pis
>> is spam, in linux and raspberry Pi newsgroups?
>> What on earth do you think that spam acrually IS?
>
> Postings from anonymous Trolls with fake identities.
>
When is an identity real, and when is it fake?

Surely it is only fake if it is pretending to be someone, or something,
it is not.
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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Weird code crash
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The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
> READ
> ====
> fp=fopen(fullname, "r");
> len=fread(filbuf,1,255,fp); // read entire file

There’s no error checking on the call to fopen, so fp could be a null
pointer when you call fread. So crashes are to be expected, although in
this code fragment a SIGSEGV would be expected rather than SIGABRT.

> WRITE
> =====
> fp=fopen(filename, "w");
> if (fp)
> {
> fprintf(fp,"%s%s\n",filedata,timestamp);
> fclose(fp);
> }
>
> Could this cause a problem?
>
> I tend to suspect some sort of asynchronous timing issue because it is
> such a rare occurrence. I have been utterly unable to make it happen
> on demand...

Investigate properly first (see Theo’s post), guess about the cause
later.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
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From: Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Limiting the capacity of SD cards for the pi
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On Wed, 20 Sep 2023 16:15:44 +0300
Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> wrote:

> On 19.9.2023 13.16, Chris Elvidge wrote:

> > 'su -' needs a password entered (on my system(s))
>
>
> So should all other methods to aquire superuser privileges.

With sudo it depends entirely on what is in /etc/sudoers.

> There seems to be around RaspiOS setups with one user
> permitted in the /etc/sudoers without password.

This is possible sudoers supports a NOPASSWD keyword - this is
mostly useful for automation and laziness.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency
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From: Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: PCBs available
Date: 13 Oct 2023 13:23:11 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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Xref: rslight comp.sys.raspberry-pi:8025

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Since when I did this professionally it was black tape on clear film, I
> ended up using Corel Draw! I started with a 3D modelling program to make
> sure the physical bits fitted, then exported the copper to Corel,
> because I am very fluent in it
>
> I found a CDR to Gerber conversion utility online. That made all the
> difference and it even worked for the legend. The drill file was harder
> but again I found a utility to create that.

Nice. An ex-colleague of mine has a startup which does 'PCB art', ie using
the PCB medium for artistic design that happens to be a functional circuit:
https://boldport.com/

He has a flow that uses Inkscape for the 'artistry' and then turns it into
Gerbers:
https://github.com/boldport/pcbmode

but if you don't need any of the schematic/netlist/ERC/DRC/etc support that
a PCB tool gives you, just hand drawing it in the drawing package works well
enough. It's quite a nice idea for making attractive and not-complicated
boards.

> > I now need to trigger one mains coil from a Pi without exporting mains or
> > putting any DC wiring in the all-mains enclosure (where I can't get good
> > isolation). Current plan is to make a photo-triac triggered by light from
> > an LED on the Pi carried on some optical fibre...
>
> If a discrete optical coupler is a nono that might work.

It's a bit annoying... with no DC in the box and not wanting to risk
exporting mains to the Pi, or making another box with a relay, the obvious
option is an optocoupler, but you can't really ensure good isolation unless
you put it in a good enclosure, which is tricky here because I'm shoving it
in an existing mains box dangling on flying leads.

Aha, I thought, you can get optotriacs to switch AC, so what about if I just
get a phototriac and shine a light at it to trigger the triac instead of
having the LED in the optotriac. Trouble is, phototriacs don't exist as a
discrete component. So the next plan is to use an LDR (photoresistor) to
trigger the gate of a regular triac (street lights use this for the
dawn-to-dusk circuit). Only finding an LDR rated for 339Vpeak is tricky, so
I probably need to voltage divide first...

I suppose I should just bite the bullet with an optotriac, put it in a
little case with wire tail connections, and pot it all with some HV safe
resin. Although the idea of a mains box with just an optical fibre input
does have its appeal...

Theo
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On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 20:11:43 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
> On 2023-08-11 17:48, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 11.08.23 um 17:21 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:

You all forgot how to trim postings? :-/

>>>> What exactly is your question?
>>>>
>>> My question is "Why did you think that a post has to be a question?"
>> Because the posting otherwise is unsoliceted spam?
>
> Not correct.
>
> As we are in a Linux group, you might remember that Linus posted his
> first kernel here (on comp.os.minix) and it was not a question.

Part was.

| [...] PS. Could someone please try to finger me from overseas, as I've
| installed a "changing .plan" (made by your's truly), and I'm not certain
| it works from outside? It should report a new .plan every time.

<https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~awb/linux.history.html>

But I agree, announcements may be okay, if they are on topic.

F'up2 colm.
--
Andreas
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From: Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Weird code crash
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On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 07:57:45 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Howver I think that for small operations one would have to posit a time
> between fopen() and fread() in which the file 'disappears' in some
> sense. Burt I 8thought* that a file handle once issued would not point
> to empty data, and that in fact fopen('w") would in fact create a new
> file and the old would not get unlinked until it was 'fclosed'

Nope - from man fopen

“w” Open for writing. The stream is positioned at the beginning of
the file. Truncate the file to zero length if it exists or
create the file if it does not exist.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency
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From: Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Limiting the capacity of SD cards for the pi
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In article <ueespp$2v1m1$1@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> That's right. If you are sitting on the mounted mount point, it
> cant get off! It will say 'busy'

Right but that's not the reason the whole thing did nothing *after* I
corrected that ????

Bob.

.
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: PCBs available
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Theo wrote:

> It's a bit annoying... with no DC in the box and not wanting to risk
> exporting mains to the Pi, or making another box with a relay, the
> obvious option is an optocoupler, but you can't really ensure good
> isolation unless you put it in a good enclosure, which is tricky here
> because I'm shoving it in an existing mains box dangling on flying
> leads. Aha, I thought, you can get optotriacs to switch AC, so what
> about if I just get a phototriac and shine a light at it to trigger the
> triac instead of having the LED in the optotriac. Trouble is,
> phototriacs don't exist as a discrete component.

Can't you "snap" one of these in half?

<https://cpc.farnell.com/omron-electronic-components/ee-sx4070/opto-switch-slotted/dp/SC12350?>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2023 05:17:21 +0000
Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple
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On 11/4/23 3:02 PM, Michael Schwingen wrote:
> On 2023-11-04, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
>> I didn't know there was a problem until I read this but you're right
>> there is. I have managed a static IP on an ethernet connection by
>> creating a file
>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/eth0 which contains:
>
> That should[1] still work (maybe after installing the ifupdown package).
> Install "resolvconf" if you want to specify DNS in /etc/network/interfaces,
> too.

And how much other stuff ???

/etc/networking worked JUST FINE and is hugely documented

There was NO reason to change.

So, basically, you now have to BREAK Deb to get it to work
like it used to. Cannonical led the way toward STUPID changes
and now Deb seems to have even exceeded THEM.

I'm gonna look into Arch ......

>> Has anyone discovered how to make a Wi-Fi dongle work with bookworm
>> lite? If so, could you enlighten me please.
>
> Have a look at
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/WiFi/HowToUse
>
> under "manual", "Using ifupdown and wpasupplicant" - you can specify
> everything you usually need in /etc/network/interfaces, no need to manually
> create separate config files.

On 05/11/2023 04:33, 56d.1152 wrote:
> Recently replaced a plug socket. Put SOLDER over the
>   ends of the wires and used the SCREW DOWN terminals
>   rather than the "push in" ones. A little extra effort
>   PAYS OFF longer term.

But best practice documents say using soldered/tinned wire in screw
connectors is bad due to differing expansion rates of the brass fitting
and solder. With enough sufficient thermal cycles the connection loosens
causing bad connections.

Obviously the experts should have consulted with you.