Le 02/01/2024 à 09:39, henh...@gmail.com a écrit :
>>>> young people don't say "Bob's your uncle"
>
> Among younger folks (20 -- 40 y.o.) in the USA today,
> where
> 10= Commonly used (like Cool!)
> 0= Never heard of it
>
>
> 4 (?) = it doesn't play in Peoria
> 3 or 2 = Kit and Caboodle
> 1 or 0 = life of Riley
>
> "Bob's your uncle" in the UK must be 5 or 6 ?

In these non-sexist and gender-fluid times, I think it would have to be
"Bob's your uncle or your auntie or a mixture of the two or none of the
above".

--
Warning! The author of this message was born some while back and may
express outdated opinions.

In article <un0lu3$2jv8h$1@dont-email.me>, vpaereru-
unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid says...
>
> Le 02/01/2024 à 09:39, henh...@gmail.com a écrit :
> >>>> young people don't say "Bob's your uncle"
> >
> > Among younger folks (20 -- 40 y.o.) in the USA today,
> > where
> > 10= Commonly used (like Cool!)
> > 0= Never heard of it
> >
> >
> > 4 (?) = it doesn't play in Peoria
> > 3 or 2 = Kit and Caboodle
> > 1 or 0 = life of Riley
> >
> > "Bob's your uncle" in the UK must be 5 or 6 ?
>
> In these non-sexist and gender-fluid times, I think it would have to be
> "Bob's your uncle or your auntie or a mixture of the two or none of the
> above".

In UK, I've heard "Bob's your uncle and Fanny's your
aunt". (No doubt even more confusing for Americans).

Kit and caboodle is still in use, so is life of Riley.

Janet

Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> writes:
>In these non-sexist and gender-fluid times, I think it would have to be
>"Bob's your uncle or your auntie or a mixture of the two or none of the
>above".

Herb Sutter, involved in improving and popularizing C++,
used it at least once in a talk in the last few years
(the traditional version of the phrase).

He was born and raised in Oakville, Ontario. Can't get
the year of his birth. He looks kind of "middle aged".

The message of Hen seems to have been cancelled on this
newsserver. I wonder whether he cancelled it himself.

Computer guys don't realize when language changes,
what with their head amongst the bytes.

Now, all you guys, get ready for one final sentence of this post!
A message directly from Herb's mouth:

"The world is built on C++."

On 2024-01-02 03:44, Hibou wrote:
> Le 02/01/2024 à 09:39, henh...@gmail.com a écrit :
>>>>> young people don't say         "Bob's your uncle"
>>
>> Among younger folks (20 -- 40 y.o.)  in the USA  today,
>> where
>>              10= Commonly used       (like Cool!)
>>                0=  Never heard of it
>>
>>
>> 4 (?)      =   it doesn't play in Peoria
>> 3 or 2    =  Kit and Caboodle
>> 1  or  0    =  life of Riley
>>
>>     "Bob's your uncle"  in the UK must be  5 or 6 ?

This Canuck has used it often.

> In these non-sexist and gender-fluid times, I think it would have to be
> "Bob's your uncle or your auntie or a mixture of the two or none of the
> above".

Thanks for the first guffaw of 2024!

--
Joke: noun: a thing we used to say before everyone became
offended by everything.

On Tuesday, lar3ryca pointed out that ...
> On 2024-01-02 03:44, Hibou wrote:
>> Le 02/01/2024 à 09:39, henh...@gmail.com a écrit :
>>>>>> young people don't say         "Bob's your uncle"
>>>
>>> Among younger folks (20 -- 40 y.o.)  in the USA  today,
>>> where
>>>              10= Commonly used       (like Cool!)
>>>                0=  Never heard of it
>>>
>>>
>>> 4 (?)      =   it doesn't play in Peoria
>>> 3 or 2    =  Kit and Caboodle
>>> 1  or  0    =  life of Riley
>>>
>>>     "Bob's your uncle"  in the UK must be  5 or 6 ?
>
> This Canuck has used it often.

I think I've heard it from a 30 yo Pennsylvanian heavy equipment
operator and ewtewber.

>
>> In these non-sexist and gender-fluid times, I think it would have to be
>> "Bob's your uncle or your auntie or a mixture of the two or none of the
>> above".
>
> Thanks for the first guffaw of 2024!

Only a snort here.

/dps

--
"That’s where I end with this kind of conversation: Language is
crucial, and yet not the answer."
Jonathan Rosa, sociocultural and linguistic anthropologist,
Stanford.,2020

Le 02/01/2024 à 12:25, Stefan Ram a écrit :
>
> Herb Sutter, involved in improving and popularizing C++,
> used it at least once in a talk in the last few years
> (the traditional version of the phrase). [...]
>
> A message directly from Herb's mouth:
>
> "The world is built on C++."

C and its children? Likely true, since much runs under Unix and its
derivatives - Linux, Android... - and C is to Unix what haricots are to
cassoulet. These languages must have been used for many embedded
systems, too.

Though rumour has it that much of our financial system is dependent on
ancient programmes written in Cobol. Since there are few Cobol
programmers left, these systems are effectively unmaintainable.

Certainly, a friend of mine worked for a company that took on a Cobol
programmer. As word spread, he became overloaded with work.

"Most people know Java and C++, but good ol’ COBOL is still alive and
kicking. In the US, around 80 percent of in-person transactions and 95
percent of ATM swipes are based on programs written in COBOL. The
problem is there’s not enough people to maintain the current COBOL-based
systems" -
<https://thenextweb.com/news/ancient-programming-language-cobol-can-make-you-bank-literally>

Le 03/01/2024 à 08:08, Hibou a écrit :
>
> Though rumour has it that much of our financial system is dependent on
> ancient programmes written in Cobol. Since there are few Cobol
> programmers left, these systems are effectively unmaintainable. [...]

s/Cobol/COBOL/g

Hibou formulated the question :
> Le 03/01/2024 à 08:08, Hibou a écrit :
>>
>> Though rumour has it that much of our financial system is dependent on
>> ancient programmes written in Cobol. Since there are few Cobol programmers
>> left, these systems are effectively unmaintainable. [...]
>
> s/Cobol/COBOL/g

I'm not sure the language is hard, based on a small exposure, but there
must be hordes of libraries to learn.

/dps

--
https://xkcd.com/2704

Le 03/01/2024 à 08:27, Snidely a écrit :
> Hibou formulated the question :
>> Le 03/01/2024 à 08:08, Hibou a écrit :
>>>
>>> Though rumour has it that much of our financial system is dependent
>>> on ancient programmes written in Cobol. Since there are few Cobol
>>> programmers left, these systems are effectively unmaintainable. [...]
>>
>> s/Cobol/COBOL/g
>
> I'm not sure the language is hard, based on a small exposure, but there
> must be hordes of libraries to learn.

I imagine that's true, though I've never looked at COBOL (I cut my teeth
on PL/1 and Fortran, with a lot of C and assembler later on). It seemed
to me, and those I discussed it with, that once one had mastered the
concepts of programming, changing to another language was fairly easy.
Within a month, say, one could be writing in it naturally, knowing and
drawing on all its features without having to look them up.

It followed that the job ads for C programmers etc. were missing the
point. During the course of a career, one can expect to use numerous
languages, and switching from one to another is part of the skill.

Mind you, if I were a bank, I'd be very careful whom I let tinker with
my core systems.

Snidely wrote:

>>> Though rumour has it that much of our financial system is dependent on
>>> ancient programmes written in Cobol. Since there are few Cobol programmers
>>> left, these systems are effectively unmaintainable. [...]
>>
>> s/Cobol/COBOL/g
>
> I'm not sure the language is hard, based on a small exposure, but there
> must be hordes of libraries to learn.

I have just started on a tutorial. It's hard in the sense that it is
different from all the languages I know.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Hibou wrote:

> I imagine that's true, though I've never looked at COBOL (I cut my teeth
> on PL/1 and Fortran, with a lot of C and assembler later on). It seemed
> to me, and those I discussed it with, that once one had mastered the
> concepts of programming, changing to another language was fairly easy.

It's easy to begin with, and you can write programs quite soon, but
learning the names of the modules and functions takes time.
> Within a month, say, one could be writing in it naturally, knowing and
> drawing on all its features without having to look them up.

No. I have never gotten past the look-up phase. PHP is a nightmare in
that respect. When I learned assembler, one of the first things was that
the sequence was consistent all through:

MOV A,8
(command, target, source)

In PHP there is horrible mix where the sequence is concerned, and I have
to look it up regularly. Python is more consistent, but it has a heap of
modules and functions that I do not know (as an amateur).

I started programming around 1972, and I have tried - more or less -
around ten different languages. Cobol is one more.

> It followed that the job ads for C programmers etc. were missing the
> point. During the course of a career, one can expect to use numerous
> languages, and switching from one to another is part of the skill.

Switching on a regular basis is not smart. PHP needs a semicolon as a
terminating character for each line, Python does not. PHP needs curled
braces around blocks of code, Python uses indentation. It's easy to once
in a while use the wrong standard when writing code until I have
switched properly - especially because I also use indentation in PHP
(where it doesn't matter).

--
Bertel, Denmark

Wednesday, Bertel Lund Hansen murmurred ...
> Snidely wrote:
>
>>>> Though rumour has it that much of our financial system is dependent on
>>>> ancient programmes written in Cobol. Since there are few Cobol programmers
>>>> left, these systems are effectively unmaintainable. [...]
>>>
>>> s/Cobol/COBOL/g
>>
>> I'm not sure the language is hard, based on a small exposure, but there
>> must be hordes of libraries to learn.
>
> I have just started on a tutorial. It's hard in the sense that it is
> different from all the languages I know.

Refresh my memory: is it a procedural language like C or Python, or
non-procedural like SQL?

/dps

--
Let's celebrate Macaronesia

Snidely wrote:

>> I have just started on a tutorial. It's hard in the sense that it is
>> different from all the languages I know.
>
> Refresh my memory: is it a procedural language like C or Python, or
> non-procedural like SQL?

It's hard to say from the little I've learned. You can't define your own
functions, and you can't define your own types. You can't write system
programs, and you can't write an OS - according to the documentation.

https://www.csis.ul.ie/cobol/

--
Bertel, Denmark

Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> writes:
>Le 02/01/2024 à 12:25, Stefan Ram a écrit :
>>"The world is built on C++."
....
>Though rumour has it that much of our financial system is dependent on
>ancient programmes written in Cobol.

Bjarne Stroustrup, inventor of C++, worked for
Morgan Stanley (from January 2014 to April 2022).

Le 03/01/2024 à 11:42, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
> Hibou wrote:
>>
>> It followed that the job ads for C programmers etc. were missing the
>> point. During the course of a career, one can expect to use numerous
>> languages, and switching from one to another is part of the skill.
>
> Switching on a regular basis is not smart.

One does what the project requires.

> PHP needs a semicolon as a
> terminating character for each line, Python does not. PHP needs curled
> braces around blocks of code, Python uses indentation. It's easy to once
> in a while use the wrong standard when writing code until I have
> switched properly - especially because I also use indentation in PHP
> (where it doesn't matter).

Like Scandinavian languages, then, just different enough to be a nuisance?

Den 03-01-2024 kl. 14:11 skrev Bertel Lund Hansen:
> Snidely wrote:
>
>>> I have just started on a tutorial. It's hard in the sense that it is
>>> different from all the languages I know.
>>
>> Refresh my memory: is it a procedural language like C or Python, or
>> non-procedural like SQL?

Procedural.

> It's hard to say from the little I've learned. You can't define your own
> functions,

The language was invented before functions were a thing, but I'd be
surprised if some sort of function definition hadn't been bolted on
in the intervening 60+ years (my own exposure dates to ca 1980).

> and you can't define your own types.

Oh yes - there is an entire section for doing just that.

> You can't write system
> programs, and you can't write an OS - according to the documentation.

I believe it is Turing complete, so that must be "can't" in a practical
sense.

> https://www.csis.ul.ie/cobol/

/Anders, Denmark

On 02-Jan-24 20:52, Snidely wrote:
> On Tuesday, lar3ryca pointed out that ...
>> On 2024-01-02 03:44, Hibou wrote:
>>> Le 02/01/2024 à 09:39, henh...@gmail.com a écrit :
>>>>>>> young people don't say         "Bob's your uncle"
>>>>
>>>> Among younger folks (20 -- 40 y.o.)  in the USA  today,
>>>> where
>>>>              10= Commonly used       (like Cool!)
>>>>                0=  Never heard of it
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 4 (?)      =   it doesn't play in Peoria
>>>> 3 or 2    =  Kit and Caboodle
>>>> 1  or  0    =  life of Riley
>>>>
>>>>     "Bob's your uncle"  in the UK must be  5 or 6 ?
>>
>> This Canuck has used it often.
>
> I think I've heard it from a 30 yo Pennsylvanian heavy equipment
> operator and ewtewber.
>
>>
>>> In these non-sexist and gender-fluid times, I think it would have to
>>> be "Bob's your uncle or your auntie or a mixture of the two or none
>>> of the above".
>>
>> Thanks for the first guffaw of 2024!
>
> Only a snort here.

Having a snort or two at New Year seems appropriate.

--
Sam Plusnet

Hibou wrote:

>> PHP needs a semicolon as a
>> terminating character for each line, Python does not. PHP needs curled
>> braces around blocks of code, Python uses indentation. It's easy to once
>> in a while use the wrong standard when writing code until I have
>> switched properly - especially because I also use indentation in PHP
>> (where it doesn't matter).
>
> Like Scandinavian languages, then, just different enough to be a nuisance?

Switching language is a completely different operation from switching
programming language - at least among the ones I know. They are all
Germanic or Roman. I sometimes compare it with a railway shift - except
that it happens instantly.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Anders D. Nygaard wrote:

> The language was invented before functions were a thing, but I'd be
> surprised if some sort of function definition hadn't been bolted on
> in the intervening 60+ years (my own exposure dates to ca 1980).

The simple COBOL remains the same, I believe, but the documents I read
mention a modern OO-version that has everything.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Bertel Lund Hansen:
> Switching language is a completely different operation from switching
> programming language - at least among the ones I know. They are all
> Germanic or Roman. I sometimes compare it with a railway shift - except
> that it happens instantly.

With a what??
--
Mark Brader, Toronto Rocket, 1829: The first 30 mph train.
msb@vex.net TGV-A, 1989: The first 300 mph train.

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Le 03/01/2024 à 21:28, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
> Hibou wrote:
> [...]
>>> PHP needs a semicolon as a
>>> terminating character for each line, Python does not. PHP needs curled
>>> braces around blocks of code, Python uses indentation. It's easy to once
>>> in a while use the wrong standard when writing code until I have
>>> switched properly - especially because I also use indentation in PHP
>>> (where it doesn't matter).
>>
>> Like Scandinavian languages, then, just different enough to be a nuisance?
>
> Switching language is a completely different operation from switching
> programming language - at least among the ones I know. They are all
> Germanic or Roman. I sometimes compare it with a railway shift - except
> that it happens instantly.

I think you probably mean 'switch', which is the American name for 'a
set of points', or 'points' for short.

(PHP and Python can therefore be said to be like dialects of English:
just different enough to be a nuisance.)

Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> writes:
>It followed that the job ads for C programmers etc. were missing the
>point. During the course of a career, one can expect to use numerous
>languages, and switching from one to another is part of the skill.

You can learn several programming languages like foreign languages
- and then use them with the appropriate proficiency. But if you want
to speak one like a native speaker, you should concentrate on one.

For example, who of those who have picked up some C++ are able to
use RAII, modern smart pointers and similar idioms correctly so as
to write code that does not leak resources when exceptions occur?

Le 04/01/2024 à 08:30, Stefan Ram a écrit :
> Hibou writes:
>>
>> It followed that the job ads for C programmers etc. were missing the
>> point. During the course of a career, one can expect to use numerous
>> languages, and switching from one to another is part of the skill.
>
> You can learn several programming languages like foreign languages
> - and then use them with the appropriate proficiency. But if you want
> to speak one like a native speaker, you should concentrate on one.

And that one has to be your native language. In a current discussion in
fr.lettres.langue.francaise ('C'est quelque chose...'), there is broad
agreement that it is impossible to speak a foreign language (in this
case French) with native proficiency, the problem being narrowness of
experience. How many foreign speakers of English understand what is
conjured up by 'dead parrot' or 'four candles' or 'And everywhere that
Mary went...'?

> For example, who of those who have picked up some C++ are able to
> use RAII, modern smart pointers and similar idioms correctly so as
> to write code that does not leak resources when exceptions occur?

The implication is that professional programmers have a limited working
life and must then turn to something else. Perhaps that's true - but
remember that the starting point of this sub-thread was old financial
systems written in COBOL. Although COBOL has evolved over the decades,
these systems will have been written to an early standard, and are
presumably so maintained - perhaps even unto using archived compilers
etc.. What's needed is not the mindset of today, but that of last
Wednesday week.

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 08:12:48 +0000
Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

> Le 03/01/2024 à 08:08, Hibou a écrit :
> >
> > Though rumour has it that much of our financial system is dependent on
> > ancient programmes written in Cobol. Since there are few Cobol
> > programmers left, these systems are effectively unmaintainable. [...]
>
> s/Cobol/COBOL/g
>

Not so; some sneaky youths are training up for really high paid jobs as
Ancient Language specialists.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Mark Brader wrote:

>> Switching language is a completely different operation from switching
>> programming language - at least among the ones I know. They are all
>> Germanic or Roman. I sometimes compare it with a railway shift - except
>> that it happens instantly.
>
> With a what??

Railroad switch - change of tracks through a switching mechanism.

--
Bertel, Denmark