On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 17:36:14 -0800, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Just this Friday, Peter Moylan explained that ...
>> On 24/02/24 02:51, Adam Funk wrote:
>>
>>> The Holy Roman Empire included some of what's now Italy at various
>>> times but it was predominantly German.
>>
>> It wasn't holy, it wasn't Roman, and it wasn't an empire. But otherwise ...
>
>Yes, but ...
>
>It claimed Holy and Roman by virtue of investiture by the Pope ...
>which happened once, by the 9th C version of a Zoom call.
>

Wiki -
Why did Pope Leo crown Charlemagne?

The Coronation of 800 CE | Western Civilization

The Pope's motivation for crowning Charlemagne was to give the
papacy and the church implicit authority over the empire, since with
this act Leo set a precedent for crowning emperors, which subsequent
popes would do throughout the reign of the Holy Roman Empire.

It was a power grab by the Pope, within his church, which Charlemagne
liked because it helped the his legitimacy, too.

--
Rich Ulrich

On 24-Feb-24 1:36, Snidely wrote:
> Just this Friday, Peter Moylan explained that ...
>> On 24/02/24 02:51, Adam Funk wrote:
>>
>>> The Holy Roman Empire included some of what's now Italy at various
>>> times but it was predominantly German.
>>
>> It wasn't holy, it wasn't Roman, and it wasn't an empire. But
>> otherwise ...
>
> Yes, but ...
>
> It claimed Holy and Roman by virtue of investiture by the Pope ... which
> happened once, by the 9th C version of a Zoom call.

And thereafter the Holy Roman Empire, the Pope, and the French (plus a
full supporting cast) would fight wars over who got to run various bits
of Italy, making and breaking alliances from month to month.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Fri, 23 Feb 2024, at 06:49:43, Bebercito posted:
>Paul Wolff wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024, at 19:45:52, Sam Plusnet posted:
>>>On 22-Feb-24 15:23, Janet wrote:
>>>> In article <l3ori5Fda4cU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>>> occam@nowhere.nix says...
>>>>>
>>>>> Listening to a BBC Radio program 'Word of mouth' - all about words and
>>>>> their etymology - I was taken aback by the history of the word 'company'.
>>>>>
>>>>> We tend to use the word mainly for an assembly of people who come
>>>>> together for common a purpose e.g. business or organised activity. Yes,
>>>>> the word is also used mean a guest ('we have company') but not so common.
>>>>>
>>>>> According to the BBC program the word derives from the Italian 'con
>>>>> pane' (with bread). It harks back to the middle ages when people would
>>>>> get together to discuss, while sharing bread. Not too dissimilar to the
>>>>> French word copain ('a close friend') which describes someone you would
>>>>> share bread with.
>>>>>
>>>>> Who knew our friendships owed so much to bread?
>>>> Crumbs
>>>Doh!
>>>
>> Cryptic crosswords can throw up some delightful ingenuities. here's a
>> clue from a few weeks ago:
>> Measure of a fraction of a loaf? (7 letters).
>
>Neurone?

The word for a fraction of five (say) is fifth. Take it from there.
--
Paul W

On Fri, 23 Feb 2024, at 10:45:32, occam posted:
>On 22/02/2024 23:52, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 22/02/24 23:04, occam wrote:
>>> Listening to a BBC Radio program 'Word of mouth' - all about words
>>> and their etymology - I was taken aback by the history of the word
>>> 'company'.
>>>
>>> We tend to use the word mainly for an assembly of people who come
>>> together for common a purpose e.g. business or organised activity.
>>> Yes, the word is also used mean a guest ('we have company') but not
>>> so common.
>>>
>>> According to the BBC program the word derives from the Italian 'con
>>> pane' (with bread). It harks back to the middle ages when people
>>> would get together to discuss, while sharing bread. Not too
>>> dissimilar to the French word copain ('a close friend') which
>>> describes someone you would share bread with.
>>>
>>> Who knew our friendships owed so much to bread?
>>
>> Etymonline has a similar explanation, but says it comes from Latin via
>> French, rather than Italian. But perhaps the word companio comes from an
>> era where Italian and Latin were almost the same language.
>
>I'd go with the Italians, who were, at the time, miles ahead of anyone
>else when it came to business and money matters.

They say (or as we used to say "on dit") that double-entry bookkeeping
was attributable to the Italian monk Pacioli. Or another Italian.
>
>Same for 'Bank'. I'd heard the explanation that it came from the French
>'banc' - based on the benches on which money deals were transacted. The
>Italian for a bench is 'banco'. Plus the Italians had the Medici, the
>Holy Roman Empire and a succession of 'firsts' in banking, way before
>anyone else in Europe. (For a long time I used to think Lombard Bank
>and a UK bank. Then the penny dropped.)

Do you mean the people who traded in Lombard Street in the City of
London (today, the financial quarter)?
--
Paul W

Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

> On 24-Feb-24 1:36, Snidely wrote:
> > Just this Friday, Peter Moylan explained that ...
> >> On 24/02/24 02:51, Adam Funk wrote:
> >>
> >>> The Holy Roman Empire included some of what's now Italy at various
> >>> times but it was predominantly German.
> >>
> >> It wasn't holy, it wasn't Roman, and it wasn't an empire. But
> >> otherwise ...
> >
> > Yes, but ...
> >
> > It claimed Holy and Roman by virtue of investiture by the Pope ... which
> > happened once, by the 9th C version of a Zoom call.
>
> And thereafter the Holy Roman Empire, the Pope, and the French (plus a
> full supporting cast) would fight wars over who got to run various bits
> of Italy, making and breaking alliances from month to month.

That didn't start in earnest until 1500 or so,
when the French invaded.
For most of the middle ages the Italians had the luxury
of mostly fighting wars amongst each other,

Jan

Paul Wolff <bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024, at 10:45:32, occam posted:
> >On 22/02/2024 23:52, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >> On 22/02/24 23:04, occam wrote:
> >>> Listening to a BBC Radio program 'Word of mouth' - all about words
> >>> and their etymology - I was taken aback by the history of the word
> >>> 'company'.
> >>>
> >>> We tend to use the word mainly for an assembly of people who come
> >>> together for common a purpose e.g. business or organised activity.
> >>> Yes, the word is also used mean a guest ('we have company') but not
> >>> so common.
> >>>
> >>> According to the BBC program the word derives from the Italian 'con
> >>> pane' (with bread). It harks back to the middle ages when people
> >>> would get together to discuss, while sharing bread. Not too
> >>> dissimilar to the French word copain ('a close friend') which
> >>> describes someone you would share bread with.
> >>>
> >>> Who knew our friendships owed so much to bread?
> >>
> >> Etymonline has a similar explanation, but says it comes from Latin via
> >> French, rather than Italian. But perhaps the word companio comes from an
> >> era where Italian and Latin were almost the same language.
> >
> >I'd go with the Italians, who were, at the time, miles ahead of anyone
> >else when it came to business and money matters.
>
> They say (or as we used to say "on dit") that double-entry bookkeeping
> was attributable to the Italian monk Pacioli. Or another Italian.

He was merely a theoretician who wrote a textbook about
what merchants had been practicing for a long time already.
(and not just in Italy)

> >Same for 'Bank'. I'd heard the explanation that it came from the French
> >'banc' - based on the benches on which money deals were transacted. The
> >Italian for a bench is 'banco'. Plus the Italians had the Medici, the
> >Holy Roman Empire and a succession of 'firsts' in banking, way before
> >anyone else in Europe. (For a long time I used to think Lombard Bank
> >and a UK bank. Then the penny dropped.)
>
> Do you mean the people who traded in Lombard Street in the City of
> London (today, the financial quarter)?

Do they still wear long beards there?

Jan

On 25/02/24 06:25, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024, at 06:49:43, Bebercito posted:
>> Paul Wolff wrote:

>>> Cryptic crosswords can throw up some delightful ingenuities. here's a
>>> clue from a few weeks ago:
>>> Measure of a fraction of a loaf? (7 letters).
>>
>> Neurone?
>
> The word for a fraction of five (say) is fifth. Take it from there.

Nice! I wouldn't have guessed it.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Sam Plusnet hat am 24.02.2024 um 20:15 geschrieben:
> On 24-Feb-24 1:36, Snidely wrote:
>> Just this Friday, Peter Moylan explained that ...
>>> On 24/02/24 02:51, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Holy Roman Empire included some of what's now Italy at various
>>>> times but it was predominantly German.
>>>
>>> It wasn't holy, it wasn't Roman, and it wasn't an empire. But
>>> otherwise ...
>>
>> Yes, but ...
>>
>> It claimed Holy and Roman by virtue of investiture by the Pope ...
>> which happened once, by the 9th C version of a Zoom call.
>
> And thereafter the Holy Roman Empire, the Pope, and the French (plus a
> full supporting cast) would fight wars over who got to run various bits
> of Italy, making and breaking alliances from month to month.

Ehm, may I point out that large parts of Italy run themselves
successfully for centuries against the Holy Roman Empire, the Pope, the
French and later on the Spaniards?

Paul Wolff hat am 24.02.2024 um 20:35 geschrieben:
> They say (or as we used to say "on dit") that double-entry bookkeeping
> was attributable to the Italian monk Pacioli. Or another Italian.

If Wikipedia is right, Pacioli "was the first person to publish a work
on the double-entry system of book-keeping on the continent", but I'm
pretty sure that quite a few Italian amd perhaps Hanseatic bankers used
similar _unpublished_ systems decades or even centuries before Pacioli
published his work. Commercial secrets, you know?

>> Same for 'Bank'. I'd heard the explanation that it came from the French
>> 'banc' - based on the benches on which money deals were transacted. The
>> Italian for a bench is 'banco'. Plus the Italians had the Medici, the
>> Holy Roman Empire and a succession of 'firsts' in banking, way before
>> anyone else in Europe. (For a long time I used to think Lombard Bank
>> and a UK bank. Then the penny dropped.)
>
> Do you mean the people who traded in Lombard Street in the City of
> London (today, the financial quarter)?

What are you trying to say? I guess that most of those people came from
what is now called Italy. Lombardy, Tuscany, Venetia, Piedmont? Probably
from all of them.

On 2024-02-23, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-02-23, occam wrote:
>>
>> > On 22/02/2024 23:52, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> >> On 22/02/24 23:04, occam wrote:
>> >>> Listening to a BBC Radio program 'Word of mouth' - all about words
>> >>> and their etymology - I was taken aback by the history of the word
>> >>> 'company'.
>> >>>
>> >>> We tend to use the word mainly for an assembly of people who come
>> >>> together for common a purpose e.g. business or organised activity.
>> >>> Yes, the word is also used mean a guest ('we have company') but not
>> >>> so common.
>> >>>
>> >>> According to the BBC program the word derives from the Italian 'con
>> >>> pane' (with bread). It harks back to the middle ages when people
>> >>> would get together to discuss, while sharing bread. Not too
>> >>> dissimilar to the French word copain ('a close friend') which
>> >>> describes someone you would share bread with.
>> >>>
>> >>> Who knew our friendships owed so much to bread?
>> >>
>> >> Etymonline has a similar explanation, but says it comes from Latin via
>> >> French, rather than Italian. But perhaps the word companio comes from an
>> >> era where Italian and Latin were almost the same language.
>> >>
>> >
>> > I'd go with the Italians, who were, at the time, miles ahead of anyone
>> > else when it came to business and money matters.
>> >
>> > Same for 'Bank'. I'd heard the explanation that it came from the French
>> > 'banc' - based on the benches on which money deals were transacted. The
>> > Italian for a bench is 'banco'. Plus the Italians had the Medici, the
>> > Holy Roman Empire and a succession of 'firsts' in banking, way before
>> > anyone else in Europe. (For a long time I used to think Lombard Bank
>> > and a UK bank. Then the penny dropped.)
>>
>> The Holy Roman Empire included some of what's now Italy at various
>> times but it was predominantly German.
>
> Sure, and as the saying goes, all the time it existed
> it was neither Holy, nor Roman,

"...ni saint, ni romain, ni même un empire", attributed to Voltaire, I
think.

--
The stakes are high and so am I

On 2024-02-23, occam wrote:

> On 23/02/2024 16:51, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2024-02-23, occam wrote:
>>
>>> On 22/02/2024 23:52, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>> On 22/02/24 23:04, occam wrote:
>>>>> Listening to a BBC Radio program 'Word of mouth' - all about words
>>>>> and their etymology - I was taken aback by the history of the word
>>>>> 'company'.
>>>>>
>>>>> We tend to use the word mainly for an assembly of people who come
>>>>> together for common a purpose e.g. business or organised activity.
>>>>> Yes, the word is also used mean a guest ('we have company') but not
>>>>> so common.
>>>>>
>>>>> According to the BBC program the word derives from the Italian 'con
>>>>> pane' (with bread). It harks back to the middle ages when people
>>>>> would get together to discuss, while sharing bread. Not too
>>>>> dissimilar to the French word copain ('a close friend') which
>>>>> describes someone you would share bread with.
>>>>>
>>>>> Who knew our friendships owed so much to bread?
>>>>
>>>> Etymonline has a similar explanation, but says it comes from Latin via
>>>> French, rather than Italian. But perhaps the word companio comes from an
>>>> era where Italian and Latin were almost the same language.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'd go with the Italians, who were, at the time, miles ahead of anyone
>>> else when it came to business and money matters.
>>>
>>> Same for 'Bank'. I'd heard the explanation that it came from the French
>>> 'banc' - based on the benches on which money deals were transacted. The
>>> Italian for a bench is 'banco'. Plus the Italians had the Medici, the
>>> Holy Roman Empire and a succession of 'firsts' in banking, way before
>>> anyone else in Europe. (For a long time I used to think Lombard Bank
>>> and a UK bank. Then the penny dropped.)
>>
>> The Holy Roman Empire included some of what's now Italy at various
>> times but it was predominantly German.
>>
> ...headquartered where? QED.

You mean Rome in name only? The real capital was at various times
Aachen, Palermo (OK, that's in Italy), Innsbruck, Vienna, Frankfurt,
Prague, Regensburg, & Wetzlar.

--
Thinking about her this morning, lying in bed, and trying to get my
thoughts on the right track, I reached into the drawer of the bedstand,
and found the Gideons' Bible, and I was going for the Psalms, friend, honest
I was, but I found the Song of Solomon instead. ---Garrison Keillor

On 25 Feb 2024, Adam Funk wrote
> On 2024-02-23, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
-snip-
>> Sure, and as the saying goes, all the time it existed
>> it was neither Holy, nor Roman,
>
> "...ni saint, ni romain, ni même un empire", attributed to
> Voltaire, I think.

A lot of sayings seem to be attributed to Voltaire. Is he like
Churchill and Oscar Wilde, who attract a lot of erroneous/dubious
attributions?

Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:

> Paul Wolff hat am 24.02.2024 um 20:35 geschrieben:
> > They say (or as we used to say "on dit") that double-entry bookkeeping
> > was attributable to the Italian monk Pacioli. Or another Italian.
>
> If Wikipedia is right, Pacioli "was the first person to publish a work
> on the double-entry system of book-keeping on the continent", but I'm
> pretty sure that quite a few Italian amd perhaps Hanseatic bankers used
> similar _unpublished_ systems decades or even centuries before Pacioli
> published his work. Commercial secrets, you know?

Not really, these were family businesses,
and those families intermarried sometimes.
The Hanseatic was a world of its own,
but those Italian bankers set up 'factories' in Brugge, (Bruges)
which was then the capitalist centre of the North.
The Arnolfini had the good sense to become known forever
by commissioning a mariage portrait there.

> >> Same for 'Bank'. I'd heard the explanation that it came from the French
> >> 'banc' - based on the benches on which money deals were transacted. The
> >> Italian for a bench is 'banco'. Plus the Italians had the Medici, the
> >> Holy Roman Empire and a succession of 'firsts' in banking, way before
> >> anyone else in Europe. (For a long time I used to think Lombard Bank
> >> and a UK bank. Then the penny dropped.)
> >
> > Do you mean the people who traded in Lombard Street in the City of
> > London (today, the financial quarter)?
>
> What are you trying to say? I guess that most of those people came from
> what is now called Italy. Lombardy, Tuscany, Venetia, Piedmont? Probably
> from all of them.

The Genovese in particular pioneered
the opening of the trade by sea with Flanders,

Jan

On Sun, 25 Feb 2024, at 00:21:44, Silvano posted:
>Paul Wolff hat am 24.02.2024 um 20:35 geschrieben:
>> They say (or as we used to say "on dit") that double-entry bookkeeping
>> was attributable to the Italian monk Pacioli. Or another Italian.
>
>If Wikipedia is right, Pacioli "was the first person to publish a work
>on the double-entry system of book-keeping on the continent", but I'm
>pretty sure that quite a few Italian amd perhaps Hanseatic bankers used
>similar _unpublished_ systems decades or even centuries before Pacioli
>published his work. Commercial secrets, you know?
>
>
>
>>> Same for 'Bank'. I'd heard the explanation that it came from the French
>>> 'banc' - based on the benches on which money deals were transacted. The
>>> Italian for a bench is 'banco'. Plus the Italians had the Medici, the
>>> Holy Roman Empire and a succession of 'firsts' in banking, way before
>>> anyone else in Europe. (For a long time I used to think Lombard Bank
>>> and a UK bank. Then the penny dropped.)
>>
>> Do you mean the people who traded in Lombard Street in the City of
>> London (today, the financial quarter)?
>
>What are you trying to say?

I was trying to answer your "For a long time I used to think Lombard
Bank and a UK bank. Then the penny dropped."

I didn't understand what you meant: so I asked if you meant all those
banks in Lombard Street. I still don't know what you meant by "Lombard
Bank and a UK bank." or why a penny dropped.

>I guess that most of those people came from
>what is now called Italy. Lombardy, Tuscany, Venetia, Piedmont? Probably
>from all of them.

--
Paul W

HVS <office@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:

> On 25 Feb 2024, Adam Funk wrote
> > On 2024-02-23, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >
> -snip-
>
> >> Sure, and as the saying goes, all the time it existed
> >> it was neither Holy, nor Roman,
> >
> > "...ni saint, ni romain, ni même un empire", attributed to
> > Voltaire, I think.
>
> A lot of sayings seem to be attributed to Voltaire. Is he like
> Churchill and Oscar Wilde, who attract a lot of erroneous/dubious
> attributions?

Voltaire really did say lots of things. (just like Wilde)
He was tolerated at the court (for most of the time)
because of his incredible wit.
Every grand lady, runing a 'salon' or chateau gatherings
tried to get him to come to their gatherings to make her name.

Sometimes, when he had been too witty,
he had to flee, until forgiven again.

After he had become rich he lived in Ferney,
nowadays Ferney-Voltaire, with good reason.
His backyard went up to the Swiss border,
so he could escape when the gendarmerie was seen
approaching his front door,
(for having been too clever, once again)

Jan

--
May I recommend Nancy Mitford, Voltaire in Love,
for a popularised account of the young Voltaire?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltaire_in_Love>
His comments on England must sound familiar...

On 26/02/24 00:39, HVS wrote:
> On 25 Feb 2024, Adam Funk wrote
>> On 2024-02-23, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>
> -snip-
>
>>> Sure, and as the saying goes, all the time it existed it was
>>> neither Holy, nor Roman,
>>
>> "...ni saint, ni romain, ni même un empire", attributed to
>> Voltaire, I think.
>
> A lot of sayings seem to be attributed to Voltaire. Is he like
> Churchill and Oscar Wilde, who attract a lot of erroneous/dubious
> attributions?

On ResearchGate I have named one of my projects "Il faut cultiver notre
jardin". I stole that from Voltaire, and it's a genuine quote.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 2024-02-25, HVS wrote:

> On 25 Feb 2024, Adam Funk wrote
>> On 2024-02-23, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>
> -snip-
>
>>> Sure, and as the saying goes, all the time it existed
>>> it was neither Holy, nor Roman,
>>
>> "...ni saint, ni romain, ni même un empire", attributed to
>> Voltaire, I think.
>
> A lot of sayings seem to be attributed to Voltaire. Is he like
> Churchill and Oscar Wilde, who attract a lot of erroneous/dubious
> attributions?

Yes; see also Mark Twain.

That one is real Voltaire, although I misquoted it slightly:

"Ce corps qui s'appelait et qui s'appelle encore le saint empire
romain n'était en aucune manière ni saint, ni romain, ni empire."

Essai sur l'histoire générale et sur les mœurs et l'esprit des
nations, Chapter 70 (1756)

<https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Voltaire>

--
I look back with the greatest pleasure to the kindness and hospitality
I met with in Yorkshire, where I spent some of the happiest years of
my life. ---Sabine Baring-Gould

Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 26/02/24 00:39, HVS wrote:
> > On 25 Feb 2024, Adam Funk wrote
> >> On 2024-02-23, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>
> > -snip-
> >
> >>> Sure, and as the saying goes, all the time it existed it was
> >>> neither Holy, nor Roman,
> >>
> >> "...ni saint, ni romain, ni même un empire", attributed to
> >> Voltaire, I think.
> >
> > A lot of sayings seem to be attributed to Voltaire. Is he like
> > Churchill and Oscar Wilde, who attract a lot of erroneous/dubious
> > attributions?
>
> On ResearchGate I have named one of my projects "Il faut cultiver notre
> jardin". I stole that from Voltaire, and it's a genuine quote.

C'est tres bien dit, mais...

Jan

On 25 Feb 2024, Paul Wolff wrote

> On Sun, 25 Feb 2024, at 00:21:44, Silvano posted:
>> Paul Wolff hat am 24.02.2024 um 20:35 geschrieben:
>>> They say (or as we used to say "on dit") that double-entry
>>> bookkeeping was attributable to the Italian monk Pacioli. Or
>>> another Italian.
>>
>> If Wikipedia is right, Pacioli "was the first person to publish a
>> work on the double-entry system of book-keeping on the
>> continent", but I'm pretty sure that quite a few Italian amd
>> perhaps Hanseatic bankers used similar _unpublished_ systems
>> decades or even centuries before Pacioli published his work.
>> Commercial secrets, you know?
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Same for 'Bank'. I'd heard the explanation that it came from
>>>> the French 'banc' - based on the benches on which money deals
>>>> were transacted. The Italian for a bench is 'banco'. Plus the
>>>> Italians had the Medici, the Holy Roman Empire and a succession
>>>> of 'firsts' in banking, way before anyone else in Europe. (For
>>>> a long time I used to think Lombard Bank and a UK bank. Then
>>>> the penny dropped.)
>>>
>>> Do you mean the people who traded in Lombard Street in the City
>>> of London (today, the financial quarter)?
>>
>> What are you trying to say?
>
> I was trying to answer your "For a long time I used to think
> Lombard Bank and a UK bank. Then the penny dropped."
>
> I didn't understand what you meant: so I asked if you meant all
> those banks in Lombard Street. I still don't know what you meant
> by "Lombard Bank and a UK bank." or why a penny dropped.
>
>> I guess that most of those people came from
>> what is now called Italy. Lombardy, Tuscany, Venetia, Piedmont?
>> Probably from all of them.

It seems to have been particularly Lombardy rather than the other
regions.

Lombardy apparently had Germanic origins -- the name derivea from
�Longobards�, Old German for "long beards", a Germanic (?tribe race)
who invaded that part of northern Italy after the collapse of the
Roman empire, and controlled it for a couple of centuries.

Henry Harben's "Dictionary of London" describes the Lombards as
successful merchants and traders who came to England in considerable
numbers and became bankers and moneylenders. The first record of the
name in its present form ("Lumbardstret") dates to 1318 -- not
coincidentally, less than 30 years after the expulsion of the Jews
from England in 1290, by which time the Lombard merchants had stepped
in to fill the resulting gap in banking and moneylending.

--
Cheers, Harvey

On 25-Feb-24 23:22, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 26/02/24 00:39, HVS wrote:
>> On 25 Feb 2024, Adam Funk wrote
>>> On 2024-02-23, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>
>> -snip-
>>
>>>> Sure, and as the saying goes, all the time it existed it was
>>>> neither Holy, nor Roman,
>>>
>>> "...ni saint, ni romain, ni même un empire", attributed to
>>> Voltaire, I think.
>>
>> A lot of sayings seem to be attributed to Voltaire.  Is he like
>> Churchill and Oscar Wilde, who attract a lot of erroneous/dubious
>> attributions?
>
> On ResearchGate I have named one of my projects "Il faut cultiver notre
> jardin". I stole that from Voltaire, and it's a genuine quote.
>
We have used up our allotment of Voltaire quotes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotment_(gardening)
(In case this doesn't translate into other flavours of English.)

P.S. I note the "Office International du Coin de Terre et des Jardins
Familiaux" is based in Luxembourg.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 24/02/2024 20:35, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024, at 10:45:32, occam posted:
>> On 22/02/2024 23:52, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 22/02/24 23:04, occam wrote:
>>>> Listening to a BBC Radio program 'Word of mouth' - all about words
>>>> and their etymology - I was taken aback by the history of the word
>>>> 'company'.
>>>>
>>>> We tend to use the word mainly for an assembly of people who come
>>>> together for common a purpose e.g. business or organised activity.
>>>> Yes, the word is also used mean a guest ('we have company') but not
>>>> so common.
>>>>
>>>> According to the BBC program the word derives from the Italian 'con
>>>> pane' (with bread). It harks back to the middle ages when people
>>>> would get together to discuss, while sharing bread. Not too
>>>> dissimilar to the French word copain ('a close friend') which
>>>> describes someone you would share bread with.
>>>>
>>>> Who knew our friendships owed so much to bread?
>>>
>>> Etymonline has a similar explanation, but says it comes from Latin via
>>> French, rather than Italian. But perhaps the word companio comes from an
>>> era where Italian and Latin were almost the same language.
>>
>> I'd go with the Italians, who were, at the time, miles ahead of anyone
>> else when it came to business and money matters.
>
> They say (or as we used to say "on dit") that double-entry bookkeeping
> was attributable to the Italian monk Pacioli. Or another Italian.
>>
>> Same for 'Bank'.  I'd heard the explanation that it came from the French
>> 'banc' - based on the benches on which money deals were transacted. The
>> Italian for a bench is 'banco'. Plus the Italians had the Medici, the
>> Holy Roman Empire and a succession of 'firsts' in banking, way before
>> anyone else in Europe.  (For a long time I used to think Lombard Bank
>> and a UK bank. Then the penny dropped.)
>
>  Do you mean the people who traded in Lombard Street in the City of
> London (today, the financial quarter)?

Yes, that's what I meant. Lombard Street (London) and Lombard bank
(amongst others).

Wiki says:

"The street has a long association with banking and finance, dating back
to the Middle Ages, when it was home to many Italian bankers who were
known as “Lombards.” These Lombard bankers played a significant role in
facilitating trade and financial transactions."