Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
matter of choice.

"The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably think
so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at the 4:00
position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman numerals."

Brought to you by the Seiko museum.

https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/

Le 16/03/2024 à 10:57, occam a écrit :
>
> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
> matter of choice.
>
> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably think
> so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at the 4:00
> position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman numerals."
>
> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
>
> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/

If giving a clock to your wife or girlfriend, and she's called Ivy, make
sure you choose one with her name on it!

On 2024-03-16 04:57, occam wrote:
> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
> matter of choice.
>
> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably think
> so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at the 4:00
> position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman numerals."

18 Wheels on a Big Rig, by Heywood Banks.
It's on YouTube.

> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
>
> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/

--
“I manufacture table tops,” said Tom, counterproductively.

occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:

> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
> matter of choice.
>
> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably think
> so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at the 4:00
> position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman numerals."
>
> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
>
> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/

Not a mystery at all, and it never was.
It is called additive notation,
as opposed to subtractive notation.
The ancient Romans used both interchangeably,
and sometimes even in one number. (like XLIIII for example)

Jan

--
IV! (Big Ben)

On Sat, 16 Mar 2024 11:02:23 -0600
lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:

> On 2024-03-16 04:57, occam wrote:
> > Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
> > matter of choice.
> >
> > "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably think
> > so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at the 4:00
> > position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman numerals."
>
VIIII v IX ?
>
> 18 Wheels on a Big Rig, by Heywood Banks.
> It's on YouTube.
>
> > Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
> >
> > https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
>
> --
> “I manufacture table tops,” said Tom, counterproductively.

I'm a professional archaeologist, looking at Sioux burial sites, said Tom,
with indignation.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 17/03/24 20:29, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Mar 2024 11:02:23 -0600
> lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-03-16 04:57, occam wrote:
>>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
>>> matter of choice.
>>>
>>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably think
>>> so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at the 4:00
>>> position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman numerals."
>>
> VIIII v IX ?

Apparently the two forms have coexisted since Etruscan times.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 21:58:12 +1100
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 17/03/24 20:29, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > On Sat, 16 Mar 2024 11:02:23 -0600
> > lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2024-03-16 04:57, occam wrote:
> >>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
> >>> matter of choice.
> >>>
> >>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably think
> >>> so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at the 4:00
> >>> position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman numerals."
> >>
> > VIIII v IX ?
>
> Apparently the two forms have coexisted since Etruscan times.
>

"What have they ever done for us?"

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:

> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
> matter of choice.
>
> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably think
> so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at the 4:00
> position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman numerals."
>
> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
>
> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/

Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
>
> > Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
> > matter of choice.
> >
> > "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably think
> > so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at the 4:00
> > position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman numerals."
> >
> > Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
> >
> > https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
>
> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).

Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.

The family name is Vilain XIIII.
(pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
All generations are Vilain XIIII, though the ages,

Jan

Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:

> I'm a professional archaeologist, looking at Sioux burial sites,
> said Tom, with indignation.

..
--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.

On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
>>
>>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
>>> matter of choice.
>>>
>>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably think
>>> so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at the 4:00
>>> position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman numerals."
>>>
>>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
>>>
>>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
>>
>> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
>
> Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
>
> The family name is Vilain XIIII.
> (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)

Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not Roman?

> All generations are Vilain XIIII, though the ages,
>
> Jan

occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:

> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
> >>
> >>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
> >>> matter of choice.
> >>>
> >>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably think
> >>> so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at the 4:00
> >>> position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman numerals."
> >>>
> >>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
> >>>
> >>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
> >>
> >> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
> >
> > Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
> >
> > The family name is Vilain XIIII.
> > (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
>
>
> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not Roman?

Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII Juillet
in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?

Jan

J. J. Lodder wrote:

> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:

>> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> > Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
>> >>
>> >>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
>> >>> matter of choice.
>> >>>
>> >>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably think
>> >>> so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at the 4:00
>> >>> position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman numerals."
>> >>>
>> >>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
>> >>>
>> >>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
>> >>
>> >> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
>> >
>> > Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
>> >
>> > The family name is Vilain XIIII.
>> > (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
>>
>>
>> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not Roman?

> Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII Juillet
> in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?

You're not making sense, Jan. If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
numeral. The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
Vilain XV is irrelevant.

--
Jerry Friedman

Remember Sunday, when jerryfriedman asked plaintively:
> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>
>>> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>> > Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
>>> >>> matter of choice.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably
>>> think
>>> >>> so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at the 4:00
>>> >>> position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman numerals."
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
>>> >>
>>> >> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
>>> >
>>> > Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
>>> >
>>> > The family name is Vilain XIIII.
>>> > (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
>>>
>>>
>>> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not Roman?
>
>> Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII Juillet
>> in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?
>
> You're not making sense, Jan. If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
> numeral. The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
> Vilain XV is irrelevant.

I would say that it is a Roman numeral that has been subsumed into a
family name, rather than used as an index.

/dps

--
potstickers, Japanese gyoza, Chinese dumplings, let's do it

jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> > occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>
> >> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> > Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
> >> >>> matter of choice.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably
> >> >>> think so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at
> >> >>> the 4:00 position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman
> >> >>> numerals."
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
> >> >>
> >> >> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
> >> >
> >> > Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
> >> >
> >> > The family name is Vilain XIIII.
> >> > (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
> >>
> >>
> >> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not Roman?
>
> > Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII Juillet
> > in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?
>
> You're not making sense, Jan. If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
> numeral. The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
> Vilain XV is irrelevant.

It is. If a number cannot de increased, or decreadsed,
or even counted with it is not a number, but a name.

This is precisely what is the case here,

Jan

Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:

> Remember Sunday, when jerryfriedman asked plaintively:
> > J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >
> >> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> >
> >>> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>> > Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
> >>> >>> matter of choice.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably
> >>> think
> >>> >>> so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at the 4:00
> >>> >>> position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman numerals."
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
> >>> >
> >>> > Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
> >>> >
> >>> > The family name is Vilain XIIII.
> >>> > (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not Roman?
> >
> >> Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII Juillet
> >> in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?
> >
> > You're not making sense, Jan. If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
> > numeral. The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
> > Vilain XV is irrelevant.
>
> I would say that it is a Roman numeral that has been subsumed into a
> family name, rather than used as an index.

Yes, they could have a Louis Vilain XIIII II if they wanted,
but not a Louis Vilain XV,

Jan

On 2024-03-18 09:05:48 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>
>>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>
>>>> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
>>>>>>> matter of choice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably
>>>>>>> think so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at
>>>>>>> the 4:00 position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman
>>>>>>> numerals."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
>>>>>
>>>>> The family name is Vilain XIIII.
>>>>> (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not Roman?
>>
>>> Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII Juillet
>>> in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?
>>
>> You're not making sense, Jan. If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
>> numeral. The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
>> Vilain XV is irrelevant.
>
> It is. If a number cannot de increased, or decreadsed,
> or even counted with it is not a number, but a name.
>
> This is precisely what is the case here,

I was initially inclined to agree with Jerry, but I'm coming around to
your point of view.

Twitter has become X, but that is clearly a (silly) name, not a number.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 18/03/2024 09:45, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2024-03-18 09:05:48 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>
>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>
>>>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all -
>>>>>>>> just a
>>>>>>>> matter of choice.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably
>>>>>>>> think so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at
>>>>>>>> the 4:00 position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman
>>>>>>>> numerals."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The family name is Vilain XIIII.
>>>>>> (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not
>>>>> Roman?
>>>
>>>> Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII
>>>> Juillet
>>>> in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?
>>>
>>> You're not making sense, Jan.  If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
>>> numeral.  The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
>>> Vilain XV is irrelevant.
>>
>> It is. If a number cannot de increased, or decreadsed,
>> or even counted with it is not a number, but a name.
>>
>> This is precisely what is the case here,
>
> I was initially inclined to agree with Jerry, but I'm coming around to
> your point of view.
>
> Twitter has become X, but that is clearly a (silly) name, not a number.
>

If that nice Mister Musk had announced that it would be pronounced as
'ten', though, wouldn't it then be a (Roman) numeral?

--
Phil B

Phil <phil@anonymous.invalid> wrote:

> On 18/03/2024 09:45, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > On 2024-03-18 09:05:48 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
> >
> >> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all -
> >>>>>>>> just a
> >>>>>>>> matter of choice.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably
> >>>>>>>> think so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at
> >>>>>>>> the 4:00 position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman
> >>>>>>>> numerals."
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The family name is Vilain XIIII.
> >>>>>> (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not
> >>>>> Roman?
> >>>
> >>>> Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII
> >>>> Juillet
> >>>> in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?
> >>>
> >>> You're not making sense, Jan. If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
> >>> numeral. The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
> >>> Vilain XV is irrelevant.
> >>
> >> It is. If a number cannot de increased, or decreadsed,
> >> or even counted with it is not a number, but a name.
> >>
> >> This is precisely what is the case here,
> >
> > I was initially inclined to agree with Jerry, but I'm coming around to
> > your point of view.
> >
> > Twitter has become X, but that is clearly a (silly) name, not a number.
> >
>
>
> If that nice Mister Musk had announced that it would be pronounced as
> 'ten', though, wouldn't it then be a (Roman) numeral?

Suppose you have a daughter and a son.
You named them Tertia and Quintus,
because you liked the sound of those words.
Have you numbered them?

Jan

On 18/03/2024 12:51, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Phil <phil@anonymous.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 18/03/2024 09:45, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2024-03-18 09:05:48 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>>>
>>>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all -
>>>>>>>>>> just a
>>>>>>>>>> matter of choice.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably
>>>>>>>>>> think so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at
>>>>>>>>>> the 4:00 position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman
>>>>>>>>>> numerals."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The family name is Vilain XIIII.
>>>>>>>> (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not
>>>>>>> Roman?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII
>>>>>> Juillet
>>>>>> in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?
>>>>>
>>>>> You're not making sense, Jan. If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
>>>>> numeral. The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
>>>>> Vilain XV is irrelevant.
>>>>
>>>> It is. If a number cannot de increased, or decreadsed,
>>>> or even counted with it is not a number, but a name.
>>>>
>>>> This is precisely what is the case here,
>>>
>>> I was initially inclined to agree with Jerry, but I'm coming around to
>>> your point of view.
>>>
>>> Twitter has become X, but that is clearly a (silly) name, not a number.
>>>

X is also a letter, not just a Roman numeral. Have you ever heard Musk
refer to 'X' as anything but 'X'? E.g. ten? I'd be astonished.

You are falling for the obsessive (and irrational) arguments of Jan the
Lodder. In this sense he is a lot like PDT. Once entrenched, it would
take a Dutch cure to shift him from his position.

>>
>>
>> If that nice Mister Musk had announced that it would be pronounced as
>> 'ten', though, wouldn't it then be a (Roman) numeral?
>
> Suppose you have a daughter and a son.
> You named them Tertia and Quintus,
> because you liked the sound of those words.
> Have you numbered them?
>

Would you have called them those sounds arbitrarily if you did not speak
Latin? Of course you would not. It's a nonsense argument.

When the Queen (or Kind) of England refers to herself as 'One' does she
mean 'I' (me) or 'I' (Roman numeral 1) or just plain old Arabic numeral '1'?
(Hint - Me, me, me,)

occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:

> On 18/03/2024 12:51, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Phil <phil@anonymous.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On 18/03/2024 09:45, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >>> On 2024-03-18 09:05:48 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
> >>>
> >>>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all -
> >>>>>>>>>> just a
> >>>>>>>>>> matter of choice.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably
> >>>>>>>>>> think so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at
> >>>>>>>>>> the 4:00 position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman
> >>>>>>>>>> numerals."
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The family name is Vilain XIIII.
> >>>>>>>> (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not
> >>>>>>> Roman?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII
> >>>>>> Juillet
> >>>>>> in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You're not making sense, Jan. If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
> >>>>> numeral. The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
> >>>>> Vilain XV is irrelevant.
> >>>>
> >>>> It is. If a number cannot de increased, or decreadsed,
> >>>> or even counted with it is not a number, but a name.
> >>>>
> >>>> This is precisely what is the case here,
> >>>
> >>> I was initially inclined to agree with Jerry, but I'm coming around to
> >>> your point of view.
> >>>
> >>> Twitter has become X, but that is clearly a (silly) name, not a number.
> >>>
>
>
> X is also a letter, not just a Roman numeral. Have you ever heard Musk
> refer to 'X' as anything but 'X'? E.g. ten? I'd be astonished.
>
> You are falling for the obsessive (and irrational) arguments of Jan the
> Lodder. In this sense he is a lot like PDT. Once entrenched, it would
> take a Dutch cure to shift him from his position.
>
>
> >>
> >>
> >> If that nice Mister Musk had announced that it would be pronounced as
> >> 'ten', though, wouldn't it then be a (Roman) numeral?
> >
> > Suppose you have a daughter and a son.
> > You named them Tertia and Quintus,
> > because you liked the sound of those words.
> > Have you numbered them?
> >
>
> Would you have called them those sounds arbitrarily if you did not speak
> Latin? Of course you would not. It's a nonsense argument.

First wikip hit, no trouble at all:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quint_Kessenich>
His brothers are named Joe and Clancy...,

Jan

On 18/03/2024 11:51, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Phil <phil@anonymous.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 18/03/2024 09:45, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2024-03-18 09:05:48 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>>>
>>>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all -
>>>>>>>>>> just a
>>>>>>>>>> matter of choice.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably
>>>>>>>>>> think so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at
>>>>>>>>>> the 4:00 position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman
>>>>>>>>>> numerals."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The family name is Vilain XIIII.
>>>>>>>> (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not
>>>>>>> Roman?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII
>>>>>> Juillet
>>>>>> in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?
>>>>>
>>>>> You're not making sense, Jan. If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
>>>>> numeral. The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
>>>>> Vilain XV is irrelevant.
>>>>
>>>> It is. If a number cannot de increased, or decreadsed,
>>>> or even counted with it is not a number, but a name.
>>>>
>>>> This is precisely what is the case here,
>>>
>>> I was initially inclined to agree with Jerry, but I'm coming around to
>>> your point of view.
>>>
>>> Twitter has become X, but that is clearly a (silly) name, not a number.
>>>
>>
>>
>> If that nice Mister Musk had announced that it would be pronounced as
>> 'ten', though, wouldn't it then be a (Roman) numeral?
>
> Suppose you have a daughter and a son.
> You named them Tertia and Quintus,
> because you liked the sound of those words.
> Have you numbered them?
>
> Jan
>

If I'd chosen to spell their names 'III' and 'V', or even '3' and '5',
then yes, probably.

All this reminds me of a legal case, years ago, probably in the US,
where a chap wanted to legally change his name to '1047' (or whatever
number it was), as some sort of protest against the system, I think.
IIRC he wasn't permitted to do so.

--
Phil B

On 2024-03-18 11:51:23 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> Phil <phil@anonymous.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 18/03/2024 09:45, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2024-03-18 09:05:48 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>>>
>>>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all -
>>>>>>>>>> just a
>>>>>>>>>> matter of choice.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably
>>>>>>>>>> think so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at
>>>>>>>>>> the 4:00 position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman
>>>>>>>>>> numerals."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The family name is Vilain XIIII.
>>>>>>>> (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not
>>>>>>> Roman?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII
>>>>>> Juillet
>>>>>> in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?
>>>>>
>>>>> You're not making sense, Jan. If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
>>>>> numeral. The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
>>>>> Vilain XV is irrelevant.
>>>>
>>>> It is. If a number cannot de increased, or decreadsed,
>>>> or even counted with it is not a number, but a name.
>>>>
>>>> This is precisely what is the case here,
>>>
>>> I was initially inclined to agree with Jerry, but I'm coming around to
>>> your point of view.
>>>
>>> Twitter has become X, but that is clearly a (silly) name, not a number.
>>>
>>
>>
>> If that nice Mister Musk had announced that it would be pronounced as
>> 'ten', though, wouldn't it then be a (Roman) numeral?
>
> Suppose you have a daughter and a son.
> You named them Tertia and Quintus,
> because you liked the sound of those words.
> Have you numbered them?

I have an ancestor who had 17 children (19th century, of course), of
whom the youngest son was called Septimus and the youngest daughter was
called Decima. How they knew that they would be the last of each sex I
have not been able to discover.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Phil wrote:

> On 18/03/2024 09:45, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2024-03-18 09:05:48 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>>
>>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all -
>>>>>>>>> just a
>>>>>>>>> matter of choice.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably
>>>>>>>>> think so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at
>>>>>>>>> the 4:00 position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman
>>>>>>>>> numerals."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The family name is Vilain XIIII.
>>>>>>> (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not
>>>>>> Roman?
>>>>
>>>>> Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII
>>>>> Juillet
>>>>> in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?
>>>>
>>>> You're not making sense, Jan.  If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
>>>> numeral.  The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
>>>> Vilain XV is irrelevant.
>>>
>>> It is. If a number cannot de increased, or decreadsed,
>>> or even counted with it is not a number, but a name.
>>>
>>> This is precisely what is the case here,
>>
>> I was initially inclined to agree with Jerry, but I'm coming around to
>> your point of view.
>>
>> Twitter has become X, but that is clearly a (silly) name, not a number.
>>

> If that nice Mister Musk had announced that it would be pronounced as
> 'ten', though, wouldn't it then be a (Roman) numeral?

Precisely.

--
Jerry Friedman

J. J. Lodder wrote:

> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>
>> > occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>
>> >> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> >> > Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
>> >> >>> matter of choice.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably
>> >> >>> think so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at
>> >> >>> the 4:00 position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman
>> >> >>> numerals."
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
>> >> >
>> >> > Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
>> >> >
>> >> > The family name is Vilain XIIII.
>> >> > (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not Roman?
>>
>> > Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII Juillet
>> > in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?
>>
>> You're not making sense, Jan. If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
>> numeral. The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
>> Vilain XV is irrelevant.

> It is. If a number cannot de increased, or decreadsed,
> or even counted with it is not a number, but a name.

> This is precisely what is the case here,

The question is about "numeral", not "number".

When Alfred Bester, in /The Demolished Man/,spelled "Quartermaine" as
"1/4maine", or when Prince wrote "I Would Die 4 U" and "Nothing Compares
2 U", they playfully used numerals to spell words. There are no numbers in
sight, but those are still numerals.

Latin (and ancient Greek and Hebrew) used letters as numerals. They're
numerals when they represent numbers, and that's true even if the number
represents something else, such as a word that sounds like the number.
According to Wikipedia, the origin of the "XIIII" in "Vilain XIIII" isn't known,
though in the two theories it mentions, it's a number (the fourteenth
quarter of somebody's escutcheon, or fourteen acres given to an illegitimate
son), not some word that sounds like [katorz]. But "XIIII" is a numeral there
because it refers to "quatorze", whether or not "quatorze" refers in turn to
something other than 14.

--
Jerry Friedman