Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> I have an ancestor who had 17 children (19th century, of course), of
> whom the youngest son was called Septimus and the youngest daughter was
> called Decima. How they knew that they would be the last of each sex I
> have not been able to discover.

Maybe they didn't? They only hoped so.

In a Danish novel a father names his twelvth child "Dusine Slutine".
"Dusine" is a constructed feminin form of "dozen", and "slut" means
"finish(ed)". It turned out that they got more children.

--
Bertel, Denmark

jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> > jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>
> >> > occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> >> > Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
> >> >> >>> matter of choice.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably
> >> >> >>> think so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at
> >> >> >>> the 4:00 position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman
> >> >> >>> numerals."
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The family name is Vilain XIIII.
> >> >> > (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not Roman?
> >>
> >> > Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII Juillet
> >> > in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?
> >>
> >> You're not making sense, Jan. If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
> >> numeral. The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
> >> Vilain XV is irrelevant.
>
> > It is. If a number cannot de increased, or decreadsed,
> > or even counted with it is not a number, but a name.
>
> > This is precisely what is the case here,
>
> The question is about "numeral", not "number".
>
> When Alfred Bester, in /The Demolished Man/,spelled "Quartermaine" as
> "1/4maine", or when Prince wrote "I Would Die 4 U" and "Nothing Compares
> 2 U", they playfully used numerals to spell words. There are no numbers in
> sight, but those are still numerals.
>
> Latin (and ancient Greek and Hebrew) used letters as numerals. They're
> numerals when they represent numbers, and that's true even if the number
> represents something else, such as a word that sounds like the number.
> According to Wikipedia, the origin of the "XIIII" in "Vilain XIIII" isn't
> known, though in the two theories it mentions, it's a number (the
> fourteenth quarter of somebody's escutcheon, or fourteen acres given to an
> illegitimate son), not some word that sounds like [katorz]. But "XIIII"
> is a numeral there because it refers to "quatorze", whether or not
> "quatorze" refers in turn to something other than 14.

It is called by name, not by value,

Jan

on 3/18/2024, J. J. Lodder supposed :
> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>
>>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>>>> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
>>>>>>>>> matter of choice.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably
>>>>>>>>> think so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at
>>>>>>>>> the 4:00 position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman
>>>>>>>>> numerals."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The family name is Vilain XIIII.
>>>>>>> (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not Roman?
>>>>> Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII Juillet
>>>>> in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?
>>>>
>>>> You're not making sense, Jan. If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
>>>> numeral. The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
>>>> Vilain XV is irrelevant.
>>
>>> It is. If a number cannot de increased, or decreadsed,
>>> or even counted with it is not a number, but a name.
>>> This is precisely what is the case here,
>>
>> The question is about "numeral", not "number".
>>
>> When Alfred Bester, in /The Demolished Man/,spelled "Quartermaine" as
>> "1/4maine", or when Prince wrote "I Would Die 4 U" and "Nothing Compares
>> 2 U", they playfully used numerals to spell words. There are no numbers in
>> sight, but those are still numerals.
>>
>> Latin (and ancient Greek and Hebrew) used letters as numerals. They're
>> numerals when they represent numbers, and that's true even if the number
>> represents something else, such as a word that sounds like the number.
>> According to Wikipedia, the origin of the "XIIII" in "Vilain XIIII" isn't
>> known, though in the two theories it mentions, it's a number (the
>> fourteenth quarter of somebody's escutcheon, or fourteen acres given to an
>> illegitimate son), not some word that sounds like [katorz]. But "XIIII"
>> is a numeral there because it refers to "quatorze", whether or not
>> "quatorze" refers in turn to something other than 14.
>
> It is called by name, not by value,
>
> Jan

It's not a prime of example of that, even for Pascal.

/dps

--
"It wasn't just a splash in the pan"
-- lectricbikes.com

On 2024-03-18 20:48, Snidely wrote:
> on 3/18/2024, J. J. Lodder supposed :
>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>
>>>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all -
>>>>>>>>>> just a
>>>>>>>>>> matter of choice.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You
>>>>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>>>>> think so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is
>>>>>>>>>> used at
>>>>>>>>>> the 4:00 position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman
>>>>>>>>>> numerals."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The family name is Vilain XIIII.
>>>>>>>> (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not
>>>>>>> Roman?
>>>>>> Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII
>>>>>> Juillet
>>>>>> in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?
>>>>>
>>>>> You're not making sense, Jan.  If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
>>>>> numeral.  The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
>>>>> Vilain XV is irrelevant.
>>>
>>>> It is. If a number cannot de increased, or decreadsed,
>>>> or even counted with it is not a number, but a name. This is
>>>> precisely what is the case here,
>>>
>>> The question is about "numeral", not "number".
>>>
>>> When Alfred Bester, in /The Demolished Man/,spelled "Quartermaine" as
>>> "1/4maine", or when Prince wrote "I Would Die 4 U" and "Nothing Compares
>>> 2 U", they playfully used numerals to spell words.  There are no
>>> numbers in
>>> sight, but those are still numerals.
>>>
>>> Latin (and ancient Greek and Hebrew) used letters as numerals.  They're
>>> numerals when they represent numbers, and that's true even if the number
>>> represents something else, such as a word that sounds like the number.
>>> According to Wikipedia, the origin of the "XIIII" in "Vilain XIIII"
>>> isn't
>>> known, though in the two theories it mentions, it's a number (the
>>> fourteenth quarter of somebody's escutcheon, or fourteen acres given
>>> to an
>>> illegitimate son), not some word that sounds like [katorz].  But "XIIII"
>>> is a numeral there because it refers to "quatorze", whether or not
>>> "quatorze" refers in turn to something other than 14.
>>
>> It is called by name, not by value,
>>
>> Jan
>
> It's not a prime of example of that, even for Pascal.

I'll wager that it's worth considering.

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it's still on my list.

lar3ryca was thinking very hard :
> On 2024-03-18 20:48, Snidely wrote:
>> on 3/18/2024, J. J. Lodder supposed :
>>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> matter of choice.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably
>>>>>>>>>>> think so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at
>>>>>>>>>>> the 4:00 position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman
>>>>>>>>>>> numerals."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The family name is Vilain XIIII.
>>>>>>>>> (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not
>>>>>>>> Roman?
>>>>>>> Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII
>>>>>>> Juillet
>>>>>>> in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You're not making sense, Jan.  If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
>>>>>> numeral.  The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
>>>>>> Vilain XV is irrelevant.
>>>>
>>>>> It is. If a number cannot de increased, or decreadsed,
>>>>> or even counted with it is not a number, but a name. This is precisely
>>>>> what is the case here,
>>>>
>>>> The question is about "numeral", not "number".
>>>>
>>>> When Alfred Bester, in /The Demolished Man/,spelled "Quartermaine" as
>>>> "1/4maine", or when Prince wrote "I Would Die 4 U" and "Nothing Compares
>>>> 2 U", they playfully used numerals to spell words.  There are no numbers
>>>> in
>>>> sight, but those are still numerals.
>>>>
>>>> Latin (and ancient Greek and Hebrew) used letters as numerals.  They're
>>>> numerals when they represent numbers, and that's true even if the number
>>>> represents something else, such as a word that sounds like the number.
>>>> According to Wikipedia, the origin of the "XIIII" in "Vilain XIIII" isn't
>>>> known, though in the two theories it mentions, it's a number (the
>>>> fourteenth quarter of somebody's escutcheon, or fourteen acres given to
>>>> an
>>>> illegitimate son), not some word that sounds like [katorz].  But "XIIII"
>>>> is a numeral there because it refers to "quatorze", whether or not
>>>> "quatorze" refers in turn to something other than 14.
>>>
>>> It is called by name, not by value,
>>>
>>> Jan
>>
>> It's not a prime of example of that, even for Pascal.
>
> I'll wager that it's worth considering.

I can see that you think it might be.

/dps

--
Trust, but verify.

On 19/03/24 07:27, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> It is called by name, not by value,

I'm guessing that about half the people here know who you're quoting,
and the other half are completely whooshed.

I met Wirth only once, and of course he told the story that Europeans
called him by name and Americans called him by value.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 22:31:16 -0600
lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:

> On 2024-03-18 20:48, Snidely wrote:
> > on 3/18/2024, J. J. Lodder supposed :
> >> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all -
> >>>>>>>>>> just a
> >>>>>>>>>> matter of choice.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You
> >>>>>>>>>> probably
> >>>>>>>>>> think so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is
> >>>>>>>>>> used at
> >>>>>>>>>> the 4:00 position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman
> >>>>>>>>>> numerals."
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The family name is Vilain XIIII.
> >>>>>>>> (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not
> >>>>>>> Roman?
> >>>>>> Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII
> >>>>>> Juillet
> >>>>>> in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You're not making sense, Jan.  If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
> >>>>> numeral.  The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
> >>>>> Vilain XV is irrelevant.
> >>>
> >>>> It is. If a number cannot de increased, or decreadsed,
> >>>> or even counted with it is not a number, but a name. This is
> >>>> precisely what is the case here,
> >>>
> >>> The question is about "numeral", not "number".
> >>>
> >>> When Alfred Bester, in /The Demolished Man/,spelled "Quartermaine" as
> >>> "1/4maine", or when Prince wrote "I Would Die 4 U" and "Nothing Compares
> >>> 2 U", they playfully used numerals to spell words.  There are no
> >>> numbers in
> >>> sight, but those are still numerals.
> >>>
> >>> Latin (and ancient Greek and Hebrew) used letters as numerals.  They're
> >>> numerals when they represent numbers, and that's true even if the number
> >>> represents something else, such as a word that sounds like the number.
> >>> According to Wikipedia, the origin of the "XIIII" in "Vilain XIIII"
> >>> isn't
> >>> known, though in the two theories it mentions, it's a number (the
> >>> fourteenth quarter of somebody's escutcheon, or fourteen acres given
> >>> to an
> >>> illegitimate son), not some word that sounds like [katorz].  But "XIIII"
> >>> is a numeral there because it refers to "quatorze", whether or not
> >>> "quatorze" refers in turn to something other than 14.
> >>
> >> It is called by name, not by value,
> >>
> >> Jan
> >
> > It's not a prime of example of that, even for Pascal.
>
> I'll wager that it's worth considering.
>
I bet you were under some pressure to come up with that.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 19/03/2024 04:31, lar3ryca wrote:
> On 2024-03-18 20:48, Snidely wrote:
>> on 3/18/2024, J. J. Lodder supposed :
>>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all -
>>>>>>>>>>> just a
>>>>>>>>>>> matter of choice.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You
>>>>>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>>>>>> think so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is
>>>>>>>>>>> used at
>>>>>>>>>>> the 4:00 position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman
>>>>>>>>>>> numerals."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The family name is Vilain XIIII.
>>>>>>>>> (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if
>>>>>>>> not Roman?
>>>>>>> Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII
>>>>>>> Juillet
>>>>>>> in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You're not making sense, Jan.  If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
>>>>>> numeral.  The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
>>>>>> Vilain XV is irrelevant.
>>>>
>>>>> It is. If a number cannot de increased, or decreadsed,
>>>>> or even counted with it is not a number, but a name. This is
>>>>> precisely what is the case here,
>>>>
>>>> The question is about "numeral", not "number".
>>>>
>>>> When Alfred Bester, in /The Demolished Man/,spelled "Quartermaine" as
>>>> "1/4maine", or when Prince wrote "I Would Die 4 U" and "Nothing
>>>> Compares
>>>> 2 U", they playfully used numerals to spell words.  There are no
>>>> numbers in
>>>> sight, but those are still numerals.
>>>>
>>>> Latin (and ancient Greek and Hebrew) used letters as numerals.  They're
>>>> numerals when they represent numbers, and that's true even if the
>>>> number
>>>> represents something else, such as a word that sounds like the number.
>>>> According to Wikipedia, the origin of the "XIIII" in "Vilain XIIII"
>>>> isn't
>>>> known, though in the two theories it mentions, it's a number (the
>>>> fourteenth quarter of somebody's escutcheon, or fourteen acres given
>>>> to an
>>>> illegitimate son), not some word that sounds like [katorz].  But
>>>> "XIIII"
>>>> is a numeral there because it refers to "quatorze", whether or not
>>>> "quatorze" refers in turn to something other than 14.
>>>
>>> It is called by name, not by value,
>>>
>>> Jan
>>
>> It's not a prime of example of that, even for Pascal.
>
> I'll wager that it's worth considering.
>
Wirtlich.

--
Ray
UK

J. J. Lodder wrote:

> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>
>> > jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> On 17/03/2024 13:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> >> >> > Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> On 2024-03-16 10:57:03 +0000, occam said:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> Here is a mystery that I was not aware was a mystery at all - just a
>> >> >> >>> matter of choice.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> "The numerical notation of 4 is IV in Roman numerals. You probably
>> >> >> >>> think so, too. However, there are many cases where IIII is used at
>> >> >> >>> the 4:00 position on the dial plates of clocks that use Roman
>> >> >> >>> numerals."
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Brought to you by the Seiko museum.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> https://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/trivia02/
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Brussels has a Rue Vilain XIIII (Mons also apparently).
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Yes, but. That is not a Roman numeral.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > The family name is Vilain XIIII.
>> >> >> > (pronounced as 'Vilain Quatorze)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Eh? If it is pronounces 'quatorze' - what numeral is that, if not Roman?
>> >>
>> >> > Would you expect to find a 'Rue du XV Juillet' or a 'rue du XIII Juillet
>> >> > in a town that has a 'Rue du XIV' Juillet?
>> >>
>> >> You're not making sense, Jan. If "XIIII" means "Quatorze", it's a
>> >> numeral. The fact that no one (I suppose) is named Vilain XIII or
>> >> Vilain XV is irrelevant.
>>
>> > It is. If a number cannot de increased, or decreadsed,
>> > or even counted with it is not a number, but a name.
>>
>> > This is precisely what is the case here,
>>
>> The question is about "numeral", not "number".
>>
>> When Alfred Bester, in /The Demolished Man/,spelled "Quartermaine" as
>> "1/4maine", or when Prince wrote "I Would Die 4 U" and "Nothing Compares
>> 2 U", they playfully used numerals to spell words. There are no numbers in
>> sight, but those are still numerals.
>>
>> Latin (and ancient Greek and Hebrew) used letters as numerals. They're
>> numerals when they represent numbers, and that's true even if the number
>> represents something else, such as a word that sounds like the number.
>> According to Wikipedia, the origin of the "XIIII" in "Vilain XIIII" isn't
>> known, though in the two theories it mentions, it's a number (the
>> fourteenth quarter of somebody's escutcheon, or fourteen acres given to an
>> illegitimate son), not some word that sounds like [katorz]. But "XIIII"
>> is a numeral there because it refers to "quatorze", whether or not
>> "quatorze" refers in turn to something other than 14.

> It is called by name, not by value,

Immaterial and irrelevant.

--
Jerry Friedman