https://daringfireball.net/2023/09/craptacular_is_more_like_it
"But everything that follows the above [lede] is dubious at best,
and in parts, a nonsensical and rather transparent hit piece."

It means not what it looks like, but what it sounds like.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lede
: the introductory section of a news story that is intended ' '
to entice the reader to read the full story

First Known Use 1947 as an adaptation of "lead" which is
how it's pronounced, so I wonder why the avant garde spelling?

On 31/03/24 15:25, Ken Blake wrote:

> https://daringfireball.net/2023/09/craptacular_is_more_like_it
> "But everything that follows the above [lede] is dubious at best,
> and in parts, a nonsensical and rather transparent hit piece."
>
> It means not what it looks like, but what it sounds like.
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lede
> : the introductory section of a news story that is intended ' '
> to entice the reader to read the full story
>
> First Known Use 1947 as an adaptation of "lead" which is
> how it's pronounced, so I wonder why the avant garde spelling?

In the newspaper industry, "lead" is the stuff that comes out of the
linotype machine.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Sat, 30 Mar 2024 22:25:03 -0600: Ken Blake <Ken@OneOfMany.com>
scribeva:

>https://daringfireball.net/2023/09/craptacular_is_more_like_it
> "But everything that follows the above [lede] is dubious at best,
> and in parts, a nonsensical and rather transparent hit piece."
>
>It means not what it looks like, but what it sounds like.
>https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lede
> : the introductory section of a news story that is intended ' '
> to entice the reader to read the full story
>
>First Known Use 1947 as an adaptation of "lead" which is
>how it's pronounced, so I wonder why the avant garde spelling?

A deliberately misspelling to avoid any confusions or
misunderstandings: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lede#Etymology_2

I often use "red" in C variable names when I mean the number of items
read of handled.

On Sun, 31 Mar 2024 10:12:18 +0200, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> A deliberately misspelling to avoid any confusions or
> misunderstandings: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lede#Etymology_2

Thank you for that very interesting read, which shows that the misspelling
was deliberate for the "lead in" and for other similar descriptors, such as
a. lede
b. dek
c. hed

On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 22:25:03 -0600, Ken Blake <Ken@OneOfMany.com>
wrote:

>First Known Use 1947 as an adaptation of "lead" which is
>how it's pronounced, so I wonder why the avant garde spelling?

It always strikes me as both twee and pretentious.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Sun, 31 Mar 2024 16:10:39 +1100, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 31/03/24 15:25, Ken Blake wrote:
>In the newspaper industry, "lead" is the stuff that comes out of the
>linotype machine.

Has any newspaper used hot lead in the last 40 years?

I worked for one 50 years ago (the "Windhoek Advertiser") which even
then was beginning to make the transition to electronic typesetting.
Five years later most newspapers were using Atex and offset litho.

I was grateful for the opportunity to work there and see hot lead
printing in practice. It gave me insight into the meaning of terms
like "cliche", "stereotype" and ETAOIN SHRDLU.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 31 Mar 2024 16:10:39 +1100, Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On 31/03/24 15:25, Ken Blake wrote:
> >In the newspaper industry, "lead" is the stuff that comes out of the
> >linotype machine.
>
> Has any newspaper used hot lead in the last 40 years?
>
> I worked for one 50 years ago (the "Windhoek Advertiser") which even
> then was beginning to make the transition to electronic typesetting.
> Five years later most newspapers were using Atex and offset litho.
>
> I was grateful for the opportunity to work there and see hot lead
> printing in practice. It gave me insight into the meaning of terms
> like "cliche", "stereotype" and ETAOIN SHRDLU.
>

That reminds me of Fredric Brown's 1942 SF story "Etaion Shrdlu"
about a sentient Linotype machine.

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.

On 03/04/2024 14:31, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Mar 2024 16:10:39 +1100, Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 31/03/24 15:25, Ken Blake wrote:
>> In the newspaper industry, "lead" is the stuff that comes out of the
>> linotype machine.
>
> Has any newspaper used hot lead in the last 40 years?
>
> I worked for one 50 years ago (the "Windhoek Advertiser") which even
> then was beginning to make the transition to electronic typesetting.
> Five years later most newspapers were using Atex and offset litho.
>
> I was grateful for the opportunity to work there and see hot lead
> printing in practice. It gave me insight into the meaning of terms
> like "cliche", "stereotype" and ETAOIN SHRDLU.
>
>
We now have 'covfefe', which has long replaced 'SHRDLU'. Similar
arbitrary string, but with less thought.

occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:

> On 03/04/2024 14:31, Steve Hayes wrote:
> > On Sun, 31 Mar 2024 16:10:39 +1100, Peter Moylan
> > <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On 31/03/24 15:25, Ken Blake wrote:
> >> In the newspaper industry, "lead" is the stuff that comes out of the
> >> linotype machine.
> >
> > Has any newspaper used hot lead in the last 40 years?
> >
> > I worked for one 50 years ago (the "Windhoek Advertiser") which even
> > then was beginning to make the transition to electronic typesetting.
> > Five years later most newspapers were using Atex and offset litho.
> >
> > I was grateful for the opportunity to work there and see hot lead
> > printing in practice. It gave me insight into the meaning of terms
> > like "cliche", "stereotype" and ETAOIN SHRDLU.
> >
> >
> We now have 'covfefe', which has long replaced 'SHRDLU'. Similar
> arbitrary string, but with less thought.
>

ETAION_SHRDLU is not an arbitrary string, it's the most commonly
used letters of the alphabet arranged in (English) frequency order.

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.

On Wed, 3 Apr 2024 13:38:09 +0100, snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote:

>Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> I was grateful for the opportunity to work there and see hot lead
>> printing in practice. It gave me insight into the meaning of terms
>> like "cliche", "stereotype" and ETAOIN SHRDLU.
>>
>
>That reminds me of Fredric Brown's 1942 SF story "Etaion Shrdlu"
>about a sentient Linotype machine.

It was seeing the machines at work that enabled me to appreciate the
story all the more, though we had Intertype rather than Linotype.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On 03/04/2024 17:37, Sn!pe wrote:
> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>
>> On 03/04/2024 14:31, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Sun, 31 Mar 2024 16:10:39 +1100, Peter Moylan
>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 31/03/24 15:25, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> In the newspaper industry, "lead" is the stuff that comes out of the
>>>> linotype machine.
>>>
>>> Has any newspaper used hot lead in the last 40 years?
>>>
>>> I worked for one 50 years ago (the "Windhoek Advertiser") which even
>>> then was beginning to make the transition to electronic typesetting.
>>> Five years later most newspapers were using Atex and offset litho.
>>>
>>> I was grateful for the opportunity to work there and see hot lead
>>> printing in practice. It gave me insight into the meaning of terms
>>> like "cliche", "stereotype" and ETAOIN SHRDLU.
>>>
>>>
>> We now have 'covfefe', which has long replaced 'SHRDLU'. Similar
>> arbitrary string, but with less thought.
>>
>
> ETAION_SHRDLU is not an arbitrary string, it's the most commonly
> used letters of the alphabet arranged in (English) frequency order.
>

How is that different to what I said?

- 'Commonly used' - maybe it was in the days of print. However with txt
mssging and other sources of silly English, R U still sure?

- Frequency order isn't what it used to be.

occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:

[...]

> >> We now have 'covfefe', which has long replaced 'SHRDLU'. Similar
> >> arbitrary string, but with less thought.
> >>
> >
> > ETAION_SHRDLU is not an arbitrary string, it's the most commonly
> > used letters of the alphabet arranged in (English) frequency order.
> >
>
> How is that different to what I said?
>

I merely took exception to 'ETAION_SHRDLU' being called
"an arbitrary string", which it plainly is not.

>
> - 'Commonly used' - maybe it was in the days of print. However with
> txt mssging and other sources of silly English, R U still sure?
>

Do you not read books and newspapers? I can't imagine that
anybody who does not takes alt.usage.english seriously. Certainly
language evolves but that does not make my statement invalid.

>
> - Frequency order isn't what it used to be.
>

Perhaps not, but frequency order tables are still useful in e.g.
cracking Caesar ciphers or other simple substitution ciphers where
the plain text follows a rational rule.

That may be a trivial example, but it's still true for all that.
Different languages (including the abomination that is "txtspk")
will obviously have different frequency tables.

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.

On Wed, 3 Apr 2024, at 16:37:32, Sn!pe posted:
>occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>
>> On 03/04/2024 14:31, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> > On Sun, 31 Mar 2024 16:10:39 +1100, Peter Moylan
>> > <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 31/03/24 15:25, Ken Blake wrote:
>> >> In the newspaper industry, "lead" is the stuff that comes out of the
>> >> linotype machine.
>> >
>> > Has any newspaper used hot lead in the last 40 years?
>> >
>> > I worked for one 50 years ago (the "Windhoek Advertiser") which even
>> > then was beginning to make the transition to electronic typesetting.
>> > Five years later most newspapers were using Atex and offset litho.
>> >
>> > I was grateful for the opportunity to work there and see hot lead
>> > printing in practice. It gave me insight into the meaning of terms
>> > like "cliche", "stereotype" and ETAOIN SHRDLU.
>> >
>> We now have 'covfefe', which has long replaced 'SHRDLU'. Similar
>> arbitrary string, but with less thought.
>
>ETAION_SHRDLU is not an arbitrary string, it's the most commonly
>used letters of the alphabet arranged in (English) frequency order.
>
T and H are presumably promoted by virtue of the frequency of articles
and demonstratives beginning "TH" in everyday written texts. If you
took, say, the thousand, or ten thousand, most frequently used [by
whom?] words in the English language, you'd get a different set of
letter frequencies.

One that I use is EARIOTNSL, but I forget what text it's based on.
--
Paul W

On 04/04/24 02:37, Sn!pe wrote:
> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>
>> On 03/04/2024 14:31, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Sun, 31 Mar 2024 16:10:39 +1100, Peter Moylan
>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 31/03/24 15:25, Ken Blake wrote: In the newspaper industry,
>>>> "lead" is the stuff that comes out of the linotype machine.
>>>
>>> Has any newspaper used hot lead in the last 40 years?
>>>
>>> I worked for one 50 years ago (the "Windhoek Advertiser") which
>>> even then was beginning to make the transition to electronic
>>> typesetting. Five years later most newspapers were using Atex
>>> and offset litho.
>>>
>>> I was grateful for the opportunity to work there and see hot lead
>>> printing in practice. It gave me insight into the meaning of
>>> terms like "cliche", "stereotype" and ETAOIN SHRDLU.
>>>
>>>
>> We now have 'covfefe', which has long replaced 'SHRDLU'. Similar
>> arbitrary string, but with less thought.
>
> ETAION_SHRDLU is not an arbitrary string, it's the most commonly
> used letters of the alphabet arranged in (English) frequency order.

More relevantly, it is the layout of one row of keys on the keyboard of
a linotype machine, similar to the QWERTYUIOP on my keyboard. You can
produce the string by dragging one finger along the row.

Linotype operators didn't have a backspace or other mechanism to correct
a typo. The best they could do, after making a mistake, was to fill the
line with very visible garbage. That was a signal to the proofreaders to
have that line removed.

Sometimes it got into print anyway.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

In article <uukkdu$69d1$1@dont-email.me>,
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>Linotype operators didn't have a backspace or other mechanism to correct
>a typo. The best they could do, after making a mistake, was to fill the
>line with very visible garbage. That was a signal to the proofreaders to
>have that line removed.

And in the case of "journalese" spellings like "hed", "cutline",
"dek", "graf", "tk", and (relevant to this thread) "lede", these were
adopted to make it obvious what are editorial instructions and what is
actual text to be printed. BrE newspaper culture has different ones;
IIRC, AmNE "dek" = BrNE "standfirst", for example.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

On 2024-04-03 06:26, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 22:25:03 -0600, Ken Blake <Ken@OneOfMany.com>
> wrote:
>
>> First Known Use 1947 as an adaptation of "lead" which is
>> how it's pronounced, so I wonder why the avant garde spelling?
>
> It always strikes me as both twee and pretentious.

Saw a pretentious spelling today; "Riverside Pointe"

--
Boomerang: n
The situation when someone is about to say to you "OK, Boomer.",
and as they start to say it, you say "Whatever, Millennial."

On 04/04/2024 00:15, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> ETAION_SHRDLU is not an arbitrary string, it's the most commonly
>> used letters of the alphabet arranged in (English) frequency order.
>
> More relevantly, it is the layout of one row of keys on the keyboard of
> a linotype machine, similar to the QWERTYUIOP on my keyboard. You can
> produce the string by dragging one finger along the row.

Bingo! How relevant are linotype machines and their keyboards today?
These are outdated machines - like typewriters and QWERTY - as is the
English text that used to be produced by them.

Yes, we still have printed newspapers today. But ETAION_SHRDLU is an
outdated string of letters that has little bearing on the English text
produced today. It is of historical value, but of little consequence
outside of a pub quiz.

On 03/04/2024 21:59, Sn!pe wrote:
> Do you not read books and newspapers? I can't imagine that
> anybody who does not takes alt.usage.english seriously.

I have not read any newspapers, not for the past 25 years.

Do you know the average age of AUE posters? Their thoughts about English
will be of zero consequence in 20 short years. ( I include myself in
this prediction.)

The fact is that written English is changing. You need to consult X,
Reddit, Tik Tok, snapchat and other garbage dumps to know this. OMG, R U
in for a surprise. <smiley face> <aubergine> <banana> <banana>

On 04/04/24 18:53, occam wrote:
> On 03/04/2024 21:59, Sn!pe wrote:

>> Do you not read books and newspapers? I can't imagine that anybody
>> who does not takes alt.usage.english seriously.
>
> I have not read any newspapers, not for the past 25 years.
>
> Do you know the average age of AUE posters? Their thoughts about
> English will be of zero consequence in 20 short years. ( I include
> myself in this prediction.)
>
> The fact is that written English is changing. You need to consult X,
> Reddit, Tik Tok, snapchat and other garbage dumps to know this. OMG,
> R U in for a surprise. <smiley face> <aubergine> <banana> <banana>

Some of what is in the garbage dumps will die out in time, although we
don't yet know which bits will survive. Those places manage to connect
people with other people with similar opinions. The next group over
might well be using a different version of English.

Newspapers are a better indication of how the language is changing, in
my opinion. The journalists provide a better cross-section of educated
users of English. (The paper copies of newspapers might be dying, but
their online versions prosper.) And in the long run it is the educated
users who write the books or who write the widely read opinion articles.
The usages of the less educated often disappear a generation later.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:

> On 03/04/2024 21:59, Sn!pe wrote:
> > Do you not read books and newspapers? I can't imagine that
> > anybody who does not takes alt.usage.english seriously.
> >
>
> I have not read any newspapers, not for the past 25 years.
>
> Do you know the average age of AUE posters? Their thoughts about English
> will be of zero consequence in 20 short years. ( I include myself in
> this prediction.)
>
> The fact is that written English is changing. You need to consult X,
> Reddit, Tik Tok, snapchat and other garbage dumps to know this. OMG, R U
> in for a surprise. <smiley face> <aubergine> <banana> <banana>
>

FYI I ~need~ to do nothing. Furthermore, I ~am~ familiar with txtspk
and emojis (cutesy cartoons for the illiterate). I even dare say to
you, Sir, that you are like unto a smiley poo with eyes.

The rest is mere sophistry, not to say trolling; the last word is yours.

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.

On 04/04/2024 13:18, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 04/04/24 18:53, occam wrote:
>> On 03/04/2024 21:59, Sn!pe wrote:
>
>>> Do you not read books and newspapers?  I can't imagine that anybody
>>> who does not takes alt.usage.english seriously.
>>
>> I have not read any newspapers, not for the past 25 years.
>>
>> Do you know the average age of AUE posters? Their thoughts about
>> English will be of zero consequence in 20 short years. ( I include
>> myself in this prediction.)
>>
>> The fact is that written English is changing. You need to consult X,
>> Reddit, Tik Tok, snapchat and other garbage dumps to know this. OMG,
>> R U in for a surprise. <smiley face> <aubergine> <banana> <banana>
>
> Some of what is in the garbage dumps will die out in time, although we
> don't yet know which bits will survive. Those places manage to connect
> people with other people with similar opinions. The next group over
> might well be using a different version of English.

Let us recall that the current 'development' of English language is
becoming an AI enterprise. The sources that AI is tapping into is the
easily accessible electronic garbage dumps, and _not_ books or online
newspapers. Which form of English do you think is going to influence AI
most - newspapers (written by educated journalists) or Tik Tok English
written by zit-faced kids? The trend is easy to see. It is 'language
entropy' in action, heading towards a new equilibrium of noise.

>
> Newspapers are a better indication of how the language is changing, in
> my opinion. The journalists provide a better cross-section of educated
> users of English. (The paper copies of newspapers might be dying, but
> their online versions prosper.) And in the long run it is the educated
> users who write the books or who write the widely read opinion articles.
> The usages of the less educated often disappear a generation later.
>

That may have been the case before social media. However the content of
social media will not disappear anytime soon. If anything, it will
become the predominant form of English, in less than a generation.

In article <l77ut7Fi4u6U1@mid.individual.net>,
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>Let us recall that the current 'development' of English language is
>becoming an AI enterprise. The sources that AI is tapping into is the
>easily accessible electronic garbage dumps, and _not_ books or online
>newspapers.

No, actually, the "AI" companies have stolen large corpora of books
and newspapers and magazines and anything else you can download
(licitly or illicitly). That is why they are being sued.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

On Wed, 3 Apr 2024 16:37:32 +0100, snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote:

>occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>
>> On 03/04/2024 14:31, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> > On Sun, 31 Mar 2024 16:10:39 +1100, Peter Moylan
>> > <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 31/03/24 15:25, Ken Blake wrote:
>> >> In the newspaper industry, "lead" is the stuff that comes out of the
>> >> linotype machine.
>> >
>> > Has any newspaper used hot lead in the last 40 years?
>> >
>> > I worked for one 50 years ago (the "Windhoek Advertiser") which even
>> > then was beginning to make the transition to electronic typesetting.
>> > Five years later most newspapers were using Atex and offset litho.
>> >
>> > I was grateful for the opportunity to work there and see hot lead
>> > printing in practice. It gave me insight into the meaning of terms
>> > like "cliche", "stereotype" and ETAOIN SHRDLU.
>> >
>> >
>> We now have 'covfefe', which has long replaced 'SHRDLU'. Similar
>> arbitrary string, but with less thought.
>>
>
>ETAION_SHRDLU is not an arbitrary string, it's the most commonly
>used letters of the alphabet arranged in (English) frequency order.

It's also the order of letters on the keyboard of hot-lead typesetting
machines, and often appeared on copy when the setter had botched a
line and wanted to reset it, so got the botched line out by running a
finger down the keys diagonally. On a QWERTY keyboard it is roughly
the equivalent of QAZ WSX.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

* Peter Moylan <uum2a1$k4eo$1@dont-email.me> :
Wrote on Thu, 4 Apr 2024 22:18:22 +1100:

> Some of what is in the garbage dumps will die out in time, although we
> don't yet know which bits will survive. Those places manage to connect
> people with other people with similar opinions. The next group over
> might well be using a different version of English.
>
> Newspapers are a better indication of how the language is changing, in
> my opinion. The journalists provide a better cross-section of educated
> users of English. (The paper copies of newspapers might be dying, but
> their online versions prosper.) And in the long run it is the educated
> users who write the books or who write the widely read opinion articles.
> The usages of the less educated often disappear a generation later.

In the [non-first] world where the biggest companies are apparently
based on "advertising" (aka surveillance), the paper copies still have
an important role in money laundering as long as the advertising (aka
surveillance budgets) exist in the economy.

In the last year Indian newspapers have been thriving as a side-effect
of commerce and foreign investors buying up both the legislation and
political parties, more than half of the printed pages featuring govt
ads and the sponsored articles, and the dear-leader-jis photo appearing
on the average between a dozen and two-dozen times (both ads and
coverage) in the printed copy.

On 04/04/2024 17:40, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article <l77ut7Fi4u6U1@mid.individual.net>,
> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>> Let us recall that the current 'development' of English language is
>> becoming an AI enterprise. The sources that AI is tapping into is the
>> easily accessible electronic garbage dumps, and _not_ books or online
>> newspapers.
>
> No, actually, the "AI" companies have stolen large corpora of books
> and newspapers and magazines and anything else you can download
> (licitly or illicitly). That is why they are being sued.
>

I agree. How does that change my conclusion? (It does not.)

The fact that they are accessing garbage sources (rather than quality
material) means that the service they will be providing will be based
on a degraded form of English. (Note: I should have used the word
'evolution' (rather than development) to describe what is happening to
English right now. The language is evolving in an unexpected way.)