On 04/04/2024 18:00, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Apr 2024 16:37:32 +0100, snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote:
>
>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>
>>> On 03/04/2024 14:31, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 31 Mar 2024 16:10:39 +1100, Peter Moylan
>>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 31/03/24 15:25, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> In the newspaper industry, "lead" is the stuff that comes out of the
>>>>> linotype machine.
>>>>
>>>> Has any newspaper used hot lead in the last 40 years?
>>>>
>>>> I worked for one 50 years ago (the "Windhoek Advertiser") which even
>>>> then was beginning to make the transition to electronic typesetting.
>>>> Five years later most newspapers were using Atex and offset litho.
>>>>
>>>> I was grateful for the opportunity to work there and see hot lead
>>>> printing in practice. It gave me insight into the meaning of terms
>>>> like "cliche", "stereotype" and ETAOIN SHRDLU.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> We now have 'covfefe', which has long replaced 'SHRDLU'. Similar
>>> arbitrary string, but with less thought.
>>>
>>
>> ETAION_SHRDLU is not an arbitrary string, it's the most commonly
>> used letters of the alphabet arranged in (English) frequency order.
>
> It's also the order of letters on the keyboard of hot-lead typesetting
> machines, and often appeared on copy when the setter had botched a
> line and wanted to reset it, so got the botched line out by running a
> finger down the keys diagonally. On a QWERTY keyboard it is roughly
> the equivalent of QAZ WSX.
>

<sigh!> Obsolete references to obsolete machines! NO ONE uses 'hot-lead
typesetting' to do anything other than demonstrations in a museum.
Ditto typewriters. Those strings of letters have no relevance to
anything that happens in the production of text. When was the last time
you 'ran your finger down the keyboard diagonally' in typing messages?

It is fair to say that human asses produce more text than hot-lead
typesetters these days. It is called 'pocket dialling'.

occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:

[I wrote]
> >> ETAION_SHRDLU is not an arbitrary string, it's the most commonly
> >> used letters of the alphabet arranged in (English) frequency order.
> >>
> >
> > It's also the order of letters on the keyboard of hot-lead typesetting
> > machines, and often appeared on copy when the setter had botched a
> > line and wanted to reset it, so got the botched line out by running a
> > finger down the keys diagonally. On a QWERTY keyboard it is roughly
> > the equivalent of QAZ WSX.
> >
>
> <sigh!> Obsolete references to obsolete machines! NO ONE uses 'hot-lead
> typesetting' to do anything other than demonstrations in a museum.
> Ditto typewriters. Those strings of letters have no relevance to
> anything that happens in the production of text. When was the last time
> you 'ran your finger down the keyboard diagonally' in typing messages?
[...]

None of that waffle detracts from my statement "ETAION_SHRDLU is not an
arbitrary string." It's a simple statement, why are you squirming so?

Whatever...

I propose that we now discuss the knotty question: How many angels can
dance on the head of a pin?

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.

In article <l79nkuFq8bjU1@mid.individual.net>,
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>On 04/04/2024 17:40, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>> In article <l77ut7Fi4u6U1@mid.individual.net>,
>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>> Let us recall that the current 'development' of English language is
>>> becoming an AI enterprise. The sources that AI is tapping into is the
>>> easily accessible electronic garbage dumps, and _not_ books or online
>>> newspapers.
>>
>> No, actually, the "AI" companies have stolen large corpora of books
>> and newspapers and magazines and anything else you can download
>> (licitly or illicitly). That is why they are being sued.
>>
>
>
>I agree. How does that change my conclusion? (It does not.)
>
>The fact that they are accessing garbage sources (rather than quality
>material)

The New York Times is a "garbage source"? The combined e-book output
of most US trade publishers is a "garbage source"?

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

On Friday, Garrett Wollman queried:
> In article <l79nkuFq8bjU1@mid.individual.net>,
> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>> On 04/04/2024 17:40, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>>> In article <l77ut7Fi4u6U1@mid.individual.net>,
>>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>> Let us recall that the current 'development' of English language is
>>>> becoming an AI enterprise. The sources that AI is tapping into is the
>>>> easily accessible electronic garbage dumps, and _not_ books or online
>>>> newspapers.
>>>
>>> No, actually, the "AI" companies have stolen large corpora of books
>>> and newspapers and magazines and anything else you can download
>>> (licitly or illicitly). That is why they are being sued.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I agree. How does that change my conclusion? (It does not.)
>>
>> The fact that they are accessing garbage sources (rather than quality
>> material)
>
> The New York Times is a "garbage source"? The combined e-book output
> of most US trade publishers is a "garbage source"?
>
> -GAWollman

And pretty likely all of occam's postings when usenet archives get
swilled.

-d

--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)

On 05/04/24 23:01, Sn!pe wrote:

> I propose that we now discuss the knotty question: How many angels can
> dance on the head of a pin?

Is that a 4-digit PIN or a 6-digit PIN?

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 05/04/24 23:01, Sn!pe wrote:
>
> > I propose that we now discuss the knotty question:
> > How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
>
> Is that a 4-digit PIN or a 6-digit PIN?

A heavenly question: inexorably unseeable and ineffable;
it's initially an excitingly complex fallacy.

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.

On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 09:54:45 +1100, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 05/04/24 23:01, Sn!pe wrote:
>
>> I propose that we now discuss the knotty question: How many angels can
>> dance on the head of a pin?
>
>Is that a 4-digit PIN or a 6-digit PIN?

I'm pretty good at construing PROBLEMs accurately.

I felt it in the gut when I recognized that, for years,
I had in my mind the wrong picture -- angels dancing on
the POINT of a pin rather than the head.

--
Rich Ulrich

Sat, 6 Apr 2024 09:54:45 +1100: Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:

>On 05/04/24 23:01, Sn!pe wrote:
>
>> I propose that we now discuss the knotty question: How many angels can
>> dance on the head of a pin?
>
>Is that a 4-digit PIN or a 6-digit PIN?

Won’t tell you, for security reason. We routinely never comment on
such issues.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 09:44:33 +0200, occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:

>On 04/04/2024 18:00, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> On Wed, 3 Apr 2024 16:37:32 +0100, snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote:
>>
>>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 03/04/2024 14:31, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 31 Mar 2024 16:10:39 +1100, Peter Moylan
>>>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 31/03/24 15:25, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>> In the newspaper industry, "lead" is the stuff that comes out of the
>>>>>> linotype machine.
>>>>>
>>>>> Has any newspaper used hot lead in the last 40 years?
>>>>>
>>>>> I worked for one 50 years ago (the "Windhoek Advertiser") which even
>>>>> then was beginning to make the transition to electronic typesetting.
>>>>> Five years later most newspapers were using Atex and offset litho.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was grateful for the opportunity to work there and see hot lead
>>>>> printing in practice. It gave me insight into the meaning of terms
>>>>> like "cliche", "stereotype" and ETAOIN SHRDLU.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> We now have 'covfefe', which has long replaced 'SHRDLU'. Similar
>>>> arbitrary string, but with less thought.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ETAION_SHRDLU is not an arbitrary string, it's the most commonly
>>> used letters of the alphabet arranged in (English) frequency order.
>>
>> It's also the order of letters on the keyboard of hot-lead typesetting
>> machines, and often appeared on copy when the setter had botched a
>> line and wanted to reset it, so got the botched line out by running a
>> finger down the keys diagonally. On a QWERTY keyboard it is roughly
>> the equivalent of QAZ WSX.
>>
>
><sigh!> Obsolete references to obsolete machines! NO ONE uses 'hot-lead
>typesetting' to do anything other than demonstrations in a museum.
>Ditto typewriters. Those strings of letters have no relevance to
>anything that happens in the production of text. When was the last time
>you 'ran your finger down the keyboard diagonally' in typing messages?

Obsolete they may be, but people still do use words like "cliche" and
"stereotype" in everyday speech, and some may even read the story
ETAOIN SHRDLU from time immemorial.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On 05/04/2024 21:23, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article <l79nkuFq8bjU1@mid.individual.net>,
> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>> On 04/04/2024 17:40, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>>> In article <l77ut7Fi4u6U1@mid.individual.net>,
>>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>>> Let us recall that the current 'development' of English language is
>>>> becoming an AI enterprise. The sources that AI is tapping into is the
>>>> easily accessible electronic garbage dumps, and _not_ books or online
>>>> newspapers.
>>>
>>> No, actually, the "AI" companies have stolen large corpora of books
>>> and newspapers and magazines and anything else you can download
>>> (licitly or illicitly). That is why they are being sued.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I agree. How does that change my conclusion? (It does not.)
>>
>> The fact that they are accessing garbage sources (rather than quality
>> material)
>
> The New York Times is a "garbage source"? The combined e-book output
> of most US trade publishers is a "garbage source"?
>

I'm sorry, you cannot cite one high quality sources and pretend all is
well. The fact is that current AIs are being trained on multiple sources
- some good quality, some not so good.

<https://contentatscale.ai/blog/where-does-chatgpt-get-its-data/#wheredoeschatgptgetitsdata>

The real question we have to ask is - is the overall signal / noise of
source material increasing or decreasing? I refer to 'language entropy'
elsewhere because I believe that there is currently more noise that
signal going into the sources into which AI taps. 'Social media' is a
far larger - and less regulated - source than newspapers, scientific
papers etc.

The long term trend is language degradation. More noise, less signal.