Do we have this in English? -- an article is omitted in a proverb?

( i know this is common in Newspaper Headings.)

______________________

In the common saying "demain il fera jour," the article "le" is indeed
omitted.

Here's the breakdown:

"Demain, il fera le jour" is grammatically correct,
as "jour" is masculine and referring to a specific day (tomorrow).

Common Saying: However, in the common saying "demain il fera
jour," the article "le" is traditionally dropped. This is a common
occurrence in French proverbs and sayings for a few reasons:

-- Flow and Rhythm: Leaving out the article creates a smoother flow
and rhythm to the phrase, making it more memorable and catchy.

-- Universality: Omitting the article makes the saying more
universal. It doesn't specify a particular day, but rather the general
idea that there will be light (jour) after darkness.

So, while "demain il fera le jour" is technically correct, "demain il
fera jour" is the more natural and common way to express the saying.

Wed, 3 Apr 2024 23:51:47 -0700: HenHanna <HenHanna@devnull.tb>
scribeva:
>Do we have this in English? -- an article is omitted in a proverb?
>
> ( i know this is common in Newspaper Headings.)
>
>______________________
>
> In the common saying "demain il fera jour," the article "le" is indeed
>omitted.

In Dutch too: het wordt dag, het is dag. Not as a proverb, just as
idiomatic Dutch.

Perhaps a calque from Biblical Hebrew? And there was light?

>Here's the breakdown:
>
> "Demain, il fera le jour" is grammatically correct,

Doesn't sound right to me.

Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Wed, 3 Apr 2024 23:51:47 -0700: HenHanna <HenHanna@devnull.tb>
> scribeva:
>> Here's the breakdown:
>>
>> "Demain, il fera le jour" is grammatically correct,
>
> Doesn't sound right to me.

I would say it's outright wrong. _Fera jour_ means it will be daytime,
metaphorically, the situation will improve. No place for any article there.

In article <uulim4$g9n9$1@dont-email.me>,
HenHanna <HenHanna@devnull.tb> wrote:
>
> In the common saying "demain il fera jour," the article "le" is indeed
>omitted.
>
>Here's the breakdown:
>
> "Demain, il fera le jour" is grammatically correct,
> as "jour" is masculine and referring to a specific day (tomorrow).

Yes, but it does not mean what you think. "Demain, il fera le jour" would
mean something like "Tomorrow he (god, maybe?) will create the day", which
is grammatical, but nonsensical outside a science-fiction story. In the
saying, "jour" is not definite, hence no "le".

Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org

On 05/04/24 02:49, Antonio Marques wrote:
> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Wed, 3 Apr 2024 23:51:47 -0700: HenHanna <HenHanna@devnull.tb>
>> scribeva:

>>> Here's the breakdown:
>>>
>>> "Demain, il fera le jour" is grammatically correct,
>>
>> Doesn't sound right to me.
>
> I would say it's outright wrong. _Fera jour_ means it will be
> daytime, metaphorically, the situation will improve. No place for any
> article there.

It reminds me of the politician who said, a few years ago, "At the end
of the day the sun will rise".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Op 4/04/2024 om 8:51 schreef HenHanna:
>
>
> Do we have this in English?  -- an article is omitted in a proverb?
>
>                     ( i know this is common in Newspaper  Headings.)
>
> ______________________
>
>  In the common saying "demain il fera jour," the article "le" is indeed
> omitted.
>
> (...)

Il fait jour. Il fait nuit. Jour et nuit.
It's daytime. It's night. Day and night.

Articles???

--
guido wugi

wugi wrote:

> Op 4/04/2024 om 8:51 schreef HenHanna:
>>
>>
>> Do we have this in English?  -- an article is omitted in a proverb?
>>
>>                     ( i know this is common in Newspaper  Headings.)
>>
>> ______________________
>>
>>  In the common saying "demain il fera jour," the article "le" is indeed
>> omitted.
>>
>> (...)

> Il fait jour. Il fait nuit. Jour et nuit.
> It's daytime. It's night. Day and night.

> Articles???

for long time, i've been aware of [Missing article phenomenon in French language]
from example of

Quand j'étais enfant, ....



Quand j'étais enfant, je parlais comme un enfant, je jugeais comme un enfant, je pensais comme un enfant; mais quand je suis devenu homme, j'ai aboli ce qui é ..........

---------------- 1 Corinthiens 13:11 Lorsque j'étais enfant, je parlais ...

Sun, 7 Apr 2024 23:07:40 +0000: HenHanna <HenHanna@dev.null> scribeva:

>wugi wrote:
>
>> Op 4/04/2024 om 8:51 schreef HenHanna:
>>>
>>>
>>> Do we have this in English?  -- an article is omitted in a proverb?
>>>
>>>                     ( i know this is common in Newspaper  Headings.)
>>>
>>> ______________________
>>>
>>>  In the common saying "demain il fera jour," the article "le" is indeed
>>> omitted.
>>>
>>> (...)
>
>> Il fait jour. Il fait nuit. Jour et nuit.
>> It's daytime. It's night. Day and night.
>
>> Articles???
>
>
>
> for

a

> long time, i've been aware of [Missing article phenomenon in

the

> French language]
> from example of
>
> Quand j'étais enfant, ....
>
>Quand j'étais enfant, je parlais comme un enfant, je jugeais comme un enfant, je pensais comme un enfant; mais quand je suis devenu homme, j'ai aboli ce qui é ..........
>
> ---------------- 1 Corinthiens 13:11 Lorsque j'étais enfant, je parlais ...

Its not so much a question of a missing article. It's only missing if
you'd take English as the norm ("When a was a child"; but in Dutch
it's possible with AND without). The real situation is that every
language consists of a large set of habits and customs, that sometimes
follow and sometimes defy logic, but they just are as they as are.
Often the same as in other languages, sometimes not.

You just have to accept that, and the only way to learn this is
exposure, like children learn, so you develop some of that sense of
language that native speakers have, so you just know what sounds right
and what doesn't, in that particular language. Finding rules and
patterns and logic might help to make remembering easier, but
eventually it's all exposure and building up habits.

Op 8/04/2024 om 1:07 schreef HenHanna:
> wugi wrote:
>
>> Op 4/04/2024 om 8:51 schreef HenHanna:
>>>
>>>
>>> Do we have this in English?  -- an article is omitted in a proverb?
>>>
>>>                      ( i know this is common in Newspaper  Headings.)
>>>
>>> ______________________
>>>
>>>   In the common saying "demain il fera jour," the article "le" is
>>> indeed omitted.
>>>
>>> (...)
>
>> Il fait jour. Il fait nuit. Jour et nuit.
>> It's daytime. It's night. Day and night.
>
>> Articles???
>
> for    long time,  i've been  aware of     [Missing article  phenomenon
> in     French language]
>  from     example of
>                Quand j'étais enfant,  ....
>
>
>
> Quand j'étais enfant, je parlais comme un enfant, je jugeais comme un
> enfant, je pensais comme un enfant; mais quand je suis devenu homme,
> j'ai aboli ce qui é ..........
>
>                         ---------------- 1 Corinthiens 13:11 Lorsque
> j'étais enfant, je parlais ...

Je suis instituteur. Il est connu comme acteur. Elle est déguisée en
fée. En tant que professeur. Le job de présentateur.

Nous partons en stage, en vacances, en voyage de noces.
Beaucoup de respect. Un peu de poivre, par manque de sel.
A force de chercher...

Articles! Please!

--
guido wugi

wugi wrote:

> Op 8/04/2024 om 1:07 schreef HenHanna:
>> wugi wrote:
>>
>>> Op 4/04/2024 om 8:51 schreef HenHanna:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do we have this in English?  -- an article is omitted in a proverb?
>>>>
>>>>                      ( i know this is common in Newspaper  Headings.)
>>>>
>>>> ______________________
>>>>
>>>>   In the common saying "demain il fera jour," the article "le" is
>>>> indeed omitted.
>>>>
>>>> (...)
>>
>>> Il fait jour. Il fait nuit. Jour et nuit.
>>> It's daytime. It's night. Day and night.
>>
>>> Articles???
>>
>> for    long time,  i've been  aware of     [Missing article  phenomenon
>> in     French language]
>>  from     example of
>>                Quand j'étais enfant,  ....
>>
>>
>>
>> Quand j'étais enfant, je parlais comme un enfant, je jugeais comme un
>> enfant, je pensais comme un enfant; mais quand je suis devenu homme,
>> j'ai aboli ce qui é ..........
>>
>>                         ---------------- 1 Corinthiens 13:11 Lorsque
>> j'étais enfant, je parlais ...

> Je suis instituteur. Il est connu comme acteur. Elle est déguisée en
> fée. En tant que professeur. Le job de présentateur.
>
> Nous partons en stage, en vacances, en voyage de noces.
> Beaucoup de respect. Un peu de poivre, par manque de sel. A force de chercher...
>
> Articles! Please!



Are you saying that in these phrases, you'd want to see articles inserted ?



A Frenchman speaks English with a French-accented-syntax and says:

I love the Salad.

"I'm so tired. I need the nap right now."

"Would you like some of the water?"

"The Coffee is the best way to start my day."

On 2024-04-08 15:40:34 +0000, wugi said:

> Op 8/04/2024 om 1:07 schreef HenHanna:
>> wugi wrote:
>>
>>> Op 4/04/2024 om 8:51 schreef HenHanna:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do we have this in English?  -- an article is omitted in a proverb?
>>>>
>>>>                      ( i know this is common in Newspaper  Headings.)
>>>>
>>>> ______________________
>>>>
>>>>   In the common saying "demain il fera jour," the article "le" is
>>>> indeed omitted.
>>>>
>>>> (...)
>>
>>> Il fait jour. Il fait nuit. Jour et nuit.
>>> It's daytime. It's night. Day and night.
>>
>>> Articles???
>>
>> for    long time,  i've been  aware of     [Missing article  phenomenon
>> in     French language]
>>  from     example of
>>                Quand j'étais enfant,  ....
>>
>>
>>
>> Quand j'étais enfant, je parlais comme un enfant, je jugeais comme un
>> enfant, je pensais comme un enfant; mais quand je suis devenu homme,
>> j'ai aboli ce qui é ..........
>>
>>                         ---------------- 1 Corinthiens 13:11 Lorsque
>> j'étais enfant, je parlais ...
>
> Je suis instituteur. Il est connu comme acteur. Elle est déguisée en
> fée. En tant que professeur. Le job de présentateur.
>
> Nous partons en stage, en vacances, en voyage de noces.
> Beaucoup de respect. Un peu de poivre, par manque de sel.
> A force de chercher...
>
> Articles! Please!

Panettone is a type of cake made in Italy and very popular in France.
The little card with the panettone that we were eating today has text
in Italian (as one would expect) and a sort of English, but not French.

The Italian says:

"Una delizia per i cultori dei sapori preziosi: invece dei canditi e
dell'uvetta una miriada di marrons glacés a tocchetti, uova fresche di
galline allecate a terra, farine selezionate e burro di prima scelta,
miele, burro di cacao e bacche di vaniglia del Madagascar. Un piacere
purissimo."

Apart from errors of transcription that I may have made, I presume that
that is correct Italian. The English says:

"A delicacy for precious tastes lovers: instead of candies and sultana
raisin a plenty of marrons glacés together with the fresh barn eggs,
the selected flours, the first-choice butter, some honey, the cocoa
butter and the vanilla berries from Madagascar. The purest pleasure."

That was clearly not written by a native English speaker, but what I
find striking is that the Italian uses the definite article in three
places where the English doesn't, and the English uses it in five
places where the Italian doesn't. It illustrates the difficulty of
deciding where to use articles in another language.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 2024-04-09, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> Panettone is a type of cake made in Italy and very popular in France.
> The little card with the panettone that we were eating today has text
> in Italian (as one would expect) and a sort of English, but not French.
>
> The Italian says:
>
> "Una delizia per i cultori dei sapori preziosi: invece dei canditi e
> dell'uvetta una miriada di marrons glacés a tocchetti, uova fresche di
> galline allecate a terra, farine selezionate e burro di prima scelta,
> miele, burro di cacao e bacche di vaniglia del Madagascar. Un piacere
> purissimo."
>
> Apart from errors of transcription that I may have made, I presume that
> that is correct Italian. The English says:
>
> "A delicacy for precious tastes lovers: instead of candies and sultana
> raisin a plenty of marrons glacés together with the fresh barn eggs,
> the selected flours, the first-choice butter, some honey, the cocoa
> butter and the vanilla berries from Madagascar. The purest pleasure."
>
> That was clearly not written by a native English speaker, but what I
> find striking is that the Italian uses the definite article in three
> places where the English doesn't, and the English uses it in five
> places where the Italian doesn't. It illustrates the difficulty of
> deciding where to use articles in another language.

The superfluous indefinite article in "a plenty of" stands out too.

--
We got music in our solar system
We're space truckin' round the stars

On 2024-04-09 09:17:11 +0000, Adam Funk said:

> On 2024-04-09, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> Panettone is a type of cake made in Italy and very popular in France.
>> The little card with the panettone that we were eating today has text
>> in Italian (as one would expect) and a sort of English, but not French.
>>
>> The Italian says:
>>
>> "Una delizia per i cultori dei sapori preziosi: invece dei canditi e
>> dell'uvetta una miriada di marrons glacés a tocchetti, uova fresche di
>> galline allecate a terra, farine selezionate e burro di prima scelta,
>> miele, burro di cacao e bacche di vaniglia del Madagascar. Un piacere
>> purissimo."
>>
>> Apart from errors of transcription that I may have made, I presume that
>> that is correct Italian. The English says:
>>
>> "A delicacy for precious tastes lovers: instead of candies and sultana
>> raisin a plenty of marrons glacés together with the fresh barn eggs,
>> the selected flours, the first-choice butter, some honey, the cocoa
>> butter and the vanilla berries from Madagascar. The purest pleasure."
>>
>> That was clearly not written by a native English speaker, but what I
>> find striking is that the Italian uses the definite article in three
>> places where the English doesn't, and the English uses it in five
>> places where the Italian doesn't. It illustrates the difficulty of
>> deciding where to use articles in another language.
>
> The superfluous indefinite article in "a plenty of" stands out too.

Yes, I noticed that, but decided not to mention it.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 09/04/24 19:06, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> Panettone is a type of cake made in Italy and very popular in
> France. The little card with the panettone that we were eating today
> has text in Italian (as one would expect) and a sort of English, but
> not French.
>
> The Italian says:
>
> "Una delizia per i cultori dei sapori preziosi: invece dei canditi e
> dell'uvetta una miriada di marrons glacés a tocchetti, uova fresche
> di galline allecate a terra, farine selezionate e burro di prima
> scelta, miele, burro di cacao e bacche di vaniglia del Madagascar.
> Un piacere purissimo."
>
> Apart from errors of transcription that I may have made, I presume
> that that is correct Italian. The English says:
>
> "A delicacy for precious tastes lovers: instead of candies and
> sultana raisin a plenty of marrons glacés together with the fresh
> barn eggs, the selected flours, the first-choice butter, some honey,
> the cocoa butter and the vanilla berries from Madagascar. The purest
> pleasure."
>
> That was clearly not written by a native English speaker, but what I
> find striking is that the Italian uses the definite article in three
> places where the English doesn't, and the English uses it in five
> places where the Italian doesn't.

It's a little more complicated than that. Consider just one item:

Italian: farine selezionate
English: the selected flours

Here the Italian version has no article, but the translator has
(incorrectly) assumed that an article is needed in English. An
English-speaking translator would not have had an article here. This
happens several times.

Another interesting case is "burro di prima scelta". A verbatim
translation might be "butter of the first choice". Here the Italian has
an article (di), but it is attached to "choice", not to "butter". So
again it is a case where neither the Italian nor the English needs an
article before "butter", but the translator thought that it was needed
in English.

Summary: a better translation would have resulted from following the
rule "if the Italian original doesn't have an article, don't use one in
English either".

> It illustrates the difficulty of deciding where to use articles in
> another language.

Your final conclusion remains valid, of course.

In my learning of Irish I keep making a really stupid mistake. The Irish
word for singular "the" is "an". Unfortunately this looks like an
English _indefinite_ article. So when I see, for example "an úll" my
immediate reaction is to read it as "an apple", when it really means
"the apple". I have not yet managed to train myself out of this error.

I don't have the same problem in the plural, because the Irish plural
definite article "na" doesn't look like anything in English.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Peter Moylan hat am 09.04.2024 um 13:11 geschrieben:
> On 09/04/24 19:06, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> Panettone is a type of cake made in Italy and very popular in
>> France. The little card with the panettone that we were eating today
>> has text in Italian (as one would expect) and a sort of English, but
>> not French.
>>
>> The Italian says:
>>
>> "Una delizia per i cultori dei sapori preziosi: invece dei canditi e
>> dell'uvetta una miriada di marrons glacés a tocchetti, uova fresche
>> di galline allecate a terra, farine selezionate e burro di prima
>> scelta, miele, burro di cacao e bacche di vaniglia del Madagascar.
>> Un piacere purissimo."

Two errors of transcription: miriadE and alleVate.

> Another interesting case is "burro di prima scelta". A verbatim
> translation might be "butter of the first choice". Here the Italian has
> an article (di), but it is attached to "choice", not to "butter".

"Di" is not an article. It's a preposition, exactly like "of".

On 2024-04-09 11:11:11 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 09/04/24 19:06, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> Panettone is a type of cake made in Italy and very popular in
>> France. The little card with the panettone that we were eating today
>> has text in Italian (as one would expect) and a sort of English, but
>> not French.
>>
>> The Italian says:
>>
>> "Una delizia per i cultori dei sapori preziosi: invece dei canditi e
>> dell'uvetta una miriada di marrons glacés a tocchetti, uova fresche
>> di galline allecate a terra, farine selezionate e burro di prima
>> scelta, miele, burro di cacao e bacche di vaniglia del Madagascar.
>> Un piacere purissimo."
>>
>> Apart from errors of transcription that I may have made, I presume
>> that that is correct Italian. The English says:
>>
>> "A delicacy for precious tastes lovers: instead of candies and
>> sultana raisin a plenty of marrons glacés together with the fresh
>> barn eggs, the selected flours, the first-choice butter, some honey,
>> the cocoa butter and the vanilla berries from Madagascar. The purest
>> pleasure."
>>
>> That was clearly not written by a native English speaker, but what I
>> find striking is that the Italian uses the definite article in three
>> places where the English doesn't, and the English uses it in five
>> places where the Italian doesn't.
>
> It's a little more complicated than that. Consider just one item:
>
> Italian: farine selezionate
> English: the selected flours
>
> Here the Italian version has no article, but the translator has
> (incorrectly) assumed that an article is needed in English. An
> English-speaking translator would not have had an article here. This
> happens several times.

That's exactly my point: how is yours different?
>
> Another interesting case is "burro di prima scelta". A verbatim
> translation might be "butter of the first choice". Here the Italian has
> an article (di), but it is attached to "choice", not to "butter". So
> again it is a case where neither the Italian nor the English needs an
> article before "butter", but the translator thought that it was needed
> in English.
>
> Summary: a better translation would have resulted from following the
> rule "if the Italian original doesn't have an article, don't use one in
> English either".
>
>> It illustrates the difficulty of deciding where to use articles in
>> another language.
>
> Your final conclusion remains valid, of course.
>
> In my learning of Irish I keep making a really stupid mistake. The Irish
> word for singular "the" is "an". Unfortunately this looks like an
> English _indefinite_ article. So when I see, for example "an úll" my
> immediate reaction is to read it as "an apple", when it really means
> "the apple". I have not yet managed to train myself out of this error.
>
> I don't have the same problem in the plural, because the Irish plural
> definite article "na" doesn't look like anything in English.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Op 9/04/2024 om 6:53 schreef HenHanna:
> wugi wrote:
>
>> Op 8/04/2024 om 1:07 schreef HenHanna:
>>> wugi wrote:
>>>
>>>> Op 4/04/2024 om 8:51 schreef HenHanna:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do we have this in English?  -- an article is omitted in a proverb?
>>>>>
>>>>>                      ( i know this is common in Newspaper  Headings.)
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________
>>>>>
>>>>>   In the common saying "demain il fera jour," the article "le" is
>>>>> indeed omitted.
>>>>>
>>>>> (...)
>>>
>>>> Il fait jour. Il fait nuit. Jour et nuit.
>>>> It's daytime. It's night. Day and night.
>>>
>>>> Articles???
>>>
>>> for    long time,  i've been  aware of     [Missing article
>>> phenomenon in     French language]
>>>   from     example of
>>>                 Quand j'étais enfant,  ....
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Quand j'étais enfant, je parlais comme un enfant, je jugeais comme un
>>> enfant, je pensais comme un enfant; mais quand je suis devenu homme,
>>> j'ai aboli ce qui é ..........
>>>
>>>                          ---------------- 1 Corinthiens 13:11 Lorsque
>>> j'étais enfant, je parlais ...
>
>> Je suis instituteur. Il est connu comme acteur. Elle est déguisée en
>> fée. En tant que professeur. Le job de présentateur.
>>
>> Nous partons en stage, en vacances, en voyage de noces.
>> Beaucoup de respect. Un peu de poivre, par manque de sel.    A force
>> de chercher...
>>
>> Articles! Please!
>
>      Are you saying that  in these phrases,   you'd want to see
> articles  inserted ?

No, I'm counter-exampling your initial question if (why?) an article is
(can be?) omitted [only?] in a proverb.

--
guido wugi

On 2024-04-09 13:03:46 +0000, Silvano said:

> Peter Moylan hat am 09.04.2024 um 13:11 geschrieben:
>> On 09/04/24 19:06, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>>> Panettone is a type of cake made in Italy and very popular in
>>> France. The little card with the panettone that we were eating today
>>> has text in Italian (as one would expect) and a sort of English, but
>>> not French.
>>>
>>> The Italian says:
>>>
>>> "Una delizia per i cultori dei sapori preziosi: invece dei canditi e
>>> dell'uvetta una miriada di marrons glacés a tocchetti, uova fresche
>>> di galline allecate a terra, farine selezionate e burro di prima
>>> scelta, miele, burro di cacao e bacche di vaniglia del Madagascar.
>>> Un piacere purissimo."
>
> Two errors of transcription: miriadE and alleVate.
>
You're right, but the second was just typo. I read the v OK.
>
>> Another interesting case is "burro di prima scelta". A verbatim
>> translation might be "butter of the first choice". Here the Italian has
>> an article (di), but it is attached to "choice", not to "butter".
>
> "Di" is not an article. It's a preposition, exactly like "of".

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 09-Apr-24 10:52, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2024-04-09 09:17:11 +0000, Adam Funk said:
>
>> On 2024-04-09, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>>> Panettone is a type of cake made in Italy and very popular in France.
>>> The little card with the panettone that we were eating today has text
>>> in Italian (as one would expect) and a sort of English, but not French.
>>>
>>> The Italian says:
>>>
>>> "Una delizia per i cultori dei sapori preziosi: invece dei canditi e
>>> dell'uvetta una miriada di marrons glacés a tocchetti, uova fresche di
>>> galline allecate a terra, farine selezionate e burro di prima scelta,
>>> miele, burro di cacao e bacche di vaniglia del Madagascar. Un piacere
>>> purissimo."
>>>
>>> Apart from errors of transcription that I may have made, I presume that
>>> that is correct Italian. The English says:
>>>
>>> "A delicacy for precious tastes lovers: instead of candies and sultana
>>> raisin a plenty of marrons glacés together with the fresh barn eggs,
>>> the selected flours, the first-choice butter, some honey, the cocoa
>>> butter and the vanilla berries from Madagascar. The purest pleasure."
>>>
>>> That was clearly not written by a native English speaker, but what I
>>> find striking is that the Italian uses the definite article in three
>>> places where the English doesn't, and the English uses it in five
>>> places where the Italian doesn't. It illustrates the difficulty of
>>> deciding where to use articles in another language.
>>
>> The superfluous indefinite article in "a plenty of" stands out too.
>
> Yes, I noticed that, but decided not to mention it.
>
Google Translate does a reasonable job rendering the Italian into English:

"A delight for lovers of precious flavours: instead of candied fruit and
raisins, a myriad of diced marrons glacés, fresh eggs from free-range
hens, selected flours and first-rate butter, honey, cocoa butter and
vanilla pods of Madagascar. A pure pleasure."

They should have used that, and saved themselves some trouble.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 2024-04-09 19:25:02 +0000, Sam Plusnet said:

> On 09-Apr-24 10:52, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2024-04-09 09:17:11 +0000, Adam Funk said:
>>
>>> On 2024-04-09, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>
>>>> Panettone is a type of cake made in Italy and very popular in France.
>>>> The little card with the panettone that we were eating today has text
>>>> in Italian (as one would expect) and a sort of English, but not French.
>>>>
>>>> The Italian says:
>>>>
>>>> "Una delizia per i cultori dei sapori preziosi: invece dei canditi e
>>>> dell'uvetta una miriada di marrons glacés a tocchetti, uova fresche di
>>>> galline allecate a terra, farine selezionate e burro di prima scelta,
>>>> miele, burro di cacao e bacche di vaniglia del Madagascar. Un piacere
>>>> purissimo."
>>>>
>>>> Apart from errors of transcription that I may have made, I presume that
>>>> that is correct Italian. The English says:
>>>>
>>>> "A delicacy for precious tastes lovers: instead of candies and sultana
>>>> raisin a plenty of marrons glacés together with the fresh barn eggs,
>>>> the selected flours, the first-choice butter, some honey, the cocoa
>>>> butter and the vanilla berries from Madagascar. The purest pleasure."
>>>>
>>>> That was clearly not written by a native English speaker, but what I
>>>> find striking is that the Italian uses the definite article in three
>>>> places where the English doesn't, and the English uses it in five
>>>> places where the Italian doesn't. It illustrates the difficulty of
>>>> deciding where to use articles in another language.
>>>
>>> The superfluous indefinite article in "a plenty of" stands out too.
>>
>> Yes, I noticed that, but decided not to mention it.
>>
> Google Translate does a reasonable job rendering the Italian into English:
>
> "A delight for lovers of precious flavours: instead of candied fruit
> and raisins, a myriad of diced marrons glacés, fresh eggs from
> free-range hens, selected flours and first-rate butter, honey, cocoa
> butter and vanilla pods of Madagascar. A pure pleasure."
>
> They should have used that, and saved themselves some trouble.

Yes, that's a great deal better. Amongst other things "pods" is much
better than "berries": I don't think natural vanilla comes in berries.

As for myriad, our panettone doesn't have 10000 marrons glacés, but I
suppose the original meaning has been lost.

I also wonder what "precious" means.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 09/04/24 23:03, Silvano wrote:
> Peter Moylan hat am 09.04.2024 um 13:11 geschrieben:

>> Another interesting case is "burro di prima scelta". A verbatim
>> translation might be "butter of the first choice". Here the Italian has
>> an article (di), but it is attached to "choice", not to "butter".
>
> "Di" is not an article. It's a preposition, exactly like "of".

Thanks. I confused it with "della".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 2024-04-09 23:17:06 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 09/04/24 23:03, Silvano wrote:
>> Peter Moylan hat am 09.04.2024 um 13:11 geschrieben:
>
>>> Another interesting case is "burro di prima scelta". A verbatim
>>> translation might be "butter of the first choice". Here the Italian has
>>> an article (di), but it is attached to "choice", not to "butter".
>>
>> "Di" is not an article. It's a preposition, exactly like "of".
>
> Thanks. I confused it with "della".

Della was Perry Mason's secretary, I think (showing my age).

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Athel Cornish-Bowden hat am 10.04.2024 um 09:45 geschrieben:
> On 2024-04-09 23:17:06 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
>> On 09/04/24 23:03, Silvano wrote:
>>> Peter Moylan hat am 09.04.2024 um 13:11 geschrieben:
>>
>>>> Another interesting case is "burro di prima scelta". A verbatim
>>>> translation might be "butter of the first choice". Here the Italian has
>>>> an article (di), but it is attached to "choice", not to "butter".
>>>
>>> "Di" is not an article. It's a preposition, exactly like "of".
>>
>> Thanks. I confused it with "della".
>
> Della was Perry Mason's secretary, I think (showing my age).

In Italian, "della" is a preposition with an article attached.

On 2024-04-10 10:27:43 +0000, Silvano said:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden hat am 10.04.2024 um 09:45 geschrieben:
>> On 2024-04-09 23:17:06 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>>
>>> On 09/04/24 23:03, Silvano wrote:
>>>> Peter Moylan hat am 09.04.2024 um 13:11 geschrieben:
>>>
>>>>> Another interesting case is "burro di prima scelta". A verbatim
>>>>> translation might be "butter of the first choice". Here the Italian has
>>>>> an article (di), but it is attached to "choice", not to "butter".
>>>>
>>>> "Di" is not an article. It's a preposition, exactly like "of".
>>>
>>> Thanks. I confused it with "della".
>>
>> Della was Perry Mason's secretary, I think (showing my age).
>
>
> In Italian, "della" is a preposition with an article attached.

Yes, I know; I was being facetious.

What was the historical origin of fused artices in Italian? When did
they arise? Spanish has only two (del, al), French has only four (du,
des, au, aux), Portuguese has plenty, but not as many as Italian. I've
not been able to work out where Rumanian fits into this list, but
anyway, it's an odd order.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 10/04/2024 at 08:45, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2024-04-09 23:17:06 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
>> On 09/04/24 23:03, Silvano wrote:
>>> Peter Moylan hat am 09.04.2024 um 13:11 geschrieben:
>>
>>>> Another interesting case is "burro di prima scelta". A verbatim
>>>> translation might be "butter of the first choice". Here the Italian has
>>>> an article (di), but it is attached to "choice", not to "butter".
>>>
>>> "Di" is not an article. It's a preposition, exactly like "of".
>>
>> Thanks. I confused it with "della".
>
> Della was Perry Mason's secretary, I think (showing my age).
>

Della Street (aka Barbara Hale).

--
Chris Elvidge, England
TEACHER IS NOT A LEPER