Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 2024-04-09 23:17:06 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
> > On 09/04/24 23:03, Silvano wrote:
> >> Peter Moylan hat am 09.04.2024 um 13:11 geschrieben:
> >
> >>> Another interesting case is "burro di prima scelta". A verbatim
> >>> translation might be "butter of the first choice". Here the Italian has
> >>> an article (di), but it is attached to "choice", not to "butter".
> >>
> >> "Di" is not an article. It's a preposition, exactly like "of".
> >
> > Thanks. I confused it with "della".
>
> Della was Perry Mason's secretary, I think (showing my age).

Known from the riddle (if you are really old)
"What did Della wear"?

Jan

On 10/04/24 20:42, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2024-04-10 10:27:43 +0000, Silvano said:

>> In Italian, "della" is a preposition with an article attached.
>
> Yes, I know; I was being facetious.
>
> What was the historical origin of fused artices in Italian? When did
> they arise? Spanish has only two (del, al), French has only four (du,
> des, au, aux), Portuguese has plenty, but not as many as Italian. I've
> not been able to work out where Rumanian fits into this list, but
> anyway, it's an odd order.

It's not solely a feature of Romance languages. Irish has them too.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Athel Cornish-Bowden hat am 10.04.2024 um 12:42 geschrieben:

> What was the historical origin of fused artices in Italian?

I don't know.

> When did they arise?

Many centuries ago. First, you need articles. Classical Latin did not
have them. Then, forms like "de illa" got fused in speech and even later
in writing, building "della". Their development has not been constant.
<https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preposizione> tells us that about only
120 years ago some prepositions with a fused article were often written
as two words, while some fused forms of that time are now always written
as two words.

> Spanish has only two (del, al), French has only four (du,
> des, au, aux), Portuguese has plenty, but not as many as Italian. I've
> not been able to work out where Rumanian fits into this list, but
> anyway, it's an odd order.

Rumanian would surprise me, because the definite article is usually
attached after nouns. Example: om (man), omul (the man). If anything,
omului (to the man) would be a fused postposition following the name
with its article.

On 10/04/24 21:40, Silvano wrote:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden hat am 10.04.2024 um 12:42 geschrieben:
>
>> What was the historical origin of fused artices in Italian?
>
> I don't know.
>
>
>> When did they arise?
>
> Many centuries ago. First, you need articles. Classical Latin did not
> have them. Then, forms like "de illa" got fused in speech and even later
> in writing, building "della". Their development has not been constant.
> <https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preposizione> tells us that about only
> 120 years ago some prepositions with a fused article were often written
> as two words, while some fused forms of that time are now always written
> as two words.
>
>
>> Spanish has only two (del, al), French has only four (du,
>> des, au, aux), Portuguese has plenty, but not as many as Italian. I've
>> not been able to work out where Rumanian fits into this list, but
>> anyway, it's an odd order.
>
> Rumanian would surprise me, because the definite article is usually
> attached after nouns. Example: om (man), omul (the man). If anything,
> omului (to the man) would be a fused postposition following the name
> with its article.

How common is it to attach a definite article after the noun? I know
that Scandinavian languages do it, but don't know of other examples.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 2024-04-09, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> On 2024-04-09 19:25:02 +0000, Sam Plusnet said:
>
>> On 09-Apr-24 10:52, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-09 09:17:11 +0000, Adam Funk said:
>>>
>>>> On 2024-04-09, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Panettone is a type of cake made in Italy and very popular in France.
>>>>> The little card with the panettone that we were eating today has text
>>>>> in Italian (as one would expect) and a sort of English, but not French.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Italian says:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Una delizia per i cultori dei sapori preziosi: invece dei canditi e
>>>>> dell'uvetta una miriada di marrons glacés a tocchetti, uova fresche di
>>>>> galline allecate a terra, farine selezionate e burro di prima scelta,
>>>>> miele, burro di cacao e bacche di vaniglia del Madagascar. Un piacere
>>>>> purissimo."
>>>>>
>>>>> Apart from errors of transcription that I may have made, I presume that
>>>>> that is correct Italian. The English says:
>>>>>
>>>>> "A delicacy for precious tastes lovers: instead of candies and sultana
>>>>> raisin a plenty of marrons glacés together with the fresh barn eggs,
>>>>> the selected flours, the first-choice butter, some honey, the cocoa
>>>>> butter and the vanilla berries from Madagascar. The purest pleasure."
>>>>>
>>>>> That was clearly not written by a native English speaker, but what I
>>>>> find striking is that the Italian uses the definite article in three
>>>>> places where the English doesn't, and the English uses it in five
>>>>> places where the Italian doesn't. It illustrates the difficulty of
>>>>> deciding where to use articles in another language.
>>>>
>>>> The superfluous indefinite article in "a plenty of" stands out too.
>>>
>>> Yes, I noticed that, but decided not to mention it.
>>>
>> Google Translate does a reasonable job rendering the Italian into English:
>>
>> "A delight for lovers of precious flavours: instead of candied fruit
>> and raisins, a myriad of diced marrons glacés, fresh eggs from
>> free-range hens, selected flours and first-rate butter, honey, cocoa
>> butter and vanilla pods of Madagascar. A pure pleasure."
>>
>> They should have used that, and saved themselves some trouble.
>
> Yes, that's a great deal better. Amongst other things "pods" is much
> better than "berries": I don't think natural vanilla comes in berries.

The WpA on vanilla uses "pods" too.

> As for myriad, our panettone doesn't have 10000 marrons glacés, but I
> suppose the original meaning has been lost.

The mind-boggling thing is that the taxon "Myriapoda" includes
centipedes & millipedes.

> I also wonder what "precious" means.

"reassuringly expensive"?

--
Bob Dylan knows
And I bet Alan Freed did
There are things in night
That it's better not to behold

On 2024-04-10, Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 10/04/24 21:40, Silvano wrote:
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden hat am 10.04.2024 um 12:42 geschrieben:
>>
>>> What was the historical origin of fused artices in Italian?
>>
>> I don't know.
>>
>>
>>> When did they arise?
>>
>> Many centuries ago. First, you need articles. Classical Latin did not
>> have them. Then, forms like "de illa" got fused in speech and even later
>> in writing, building "della". Their development has not been constant.
>> <https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preposizione> tells us that about only
>> 120 years ago some prepositions with a fused article were often written
>> as two words, while some fused forms of that time are now always written
>> as two words.
>>
>>
>>> Spanish has only two (del, al), French has only four (du,
>>> des, au, aux), Portuguese has plenty, but not as many as Italian. I've
>>> not been able to work out where Rumanian fits into this list, but
>>> anyway, it's an odd order.
>>
>> Rumanian would surprise me, because the definite article is usually
>> attached after nouns. Example: om (man), omul (the man). If anything,
>> omului (to the man) would be a fused postposition following the name
>> with its article.
>
> How common is it to attach a definite article after the noun? I know
> that Scandinavian languages do it, but don't know of other examples.

Someone (here, maybe?) said that Nahuatl has them (in response to my
asking why words in Nahautl [1] seem to end in "tl"), but WP describes it
as "an absolutive suffix".

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahuatl#Nouns>

[1] e.g.,
tomatl -> tomato
auacatl (testicle fruit) -> avocado
chocolatl -> chocolate
coyotl -> coyote

--
My Shangri-La beneath the summer moon
I will return again

On 10/04/2024 at 12:11, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-04-09 23:17:06 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>>
>>> On 09/04/24 23:03, Silvano wrote:
>>>> Peter Moylan hat am 09.04.2024 um 13:11 geschrieben:
>>>
>>>>> Another interesting case is "burro di prima scelta". A verbatim
>>>>> translation might be "butter of the first choice". Here the Italian has
>>>>> an article (di), but it is attached to "choice", not to "butter".
>>>>
>>>> "Di" is not an article. It's a preposition, exactly like "of".
>>>
>>> Thanks. I confused it with "della".
>>
>> Della was Perry Mason's secretary, I think (showing my age).
>
> Known from the riddle (if you are really old)
> "What did Della wear"?
>
> Jan
>
>
>

Perry Como knew.
(A brand new jersey, for those who don't know.)

--
Chris Elvidge, England
I DID NOT INVENT IRISH DANCING

On 2024-04-10 11:11:38 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-04-09 23:17:06 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>>
>>> On 09/04/24 23:03, Silvano wrote:
>>>> Peter Moylan hat am 09.04.2024 um 13:11 geschrieben:
>>>
>>>>> Another interesting case is "burro di prima scelta". A verbatim
>>>>> translation might be "butter of the first choice". Here the Italian has
>>>>> an article (di), but it is attached to "choice", not to "butter".
>>>>
>>>> "Di" is not an article. It's a preposition, exactly like "of".
>>>
>>> Thanks. I confused it with "della".
>>
>> Della was Perry Mason's secretary, I think (showing my age).
>
> Known from the riddle (if you are really old)
> "What did Della wear"?
>
>
She wore a brand-new jersey. That's what she did wear.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 2024-04-10 13:34:29 +0000, Chris Elvidge said:

> On 10/04/2024 at 12:11, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-04-09 23:17:06 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>>>
>>>> On 09/04/24 23:03, Silvano wrote:
>>>>> Peter Moylan hat am 09.04.2024 um 13:11 geschrieben:
>>>>
>>>>>> Another interesting case is "burro di prima scelta". A verbatim
>>>>>> translation might be "butter of the first choice". Here the Italian has
>>>>>> an article (di), but it is attached to "choice", not to "butter".
>>>>>
>>>>> "Di" is not an article. It's a preposition, exactly like "of".
>>>>
>>>> Thanks. I confused it with "della".
>>>
>>> Della was Perry Mason's secretary, I think (showing my age).
>>
>> Known from the riddle (if you are really old)
>> "What did Della wear"?
>>
>> Jan
>>
>>
>>
>
> Perry Como knew.
> (A brand new jersey, for those who don't know.)

Yes, but I deliberately didn't read your answer until I had posted mine.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.