Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:

> jerryfriedman wrote:

>>>> At least in English, unlike French, there's a nearly complete
>>>> consensus on the names of the numbers. But does _101 Dalmatians_
>>>> come before or after (*wikips*) the Korean TV series _100 Days
>>>> My Prince_?
>>
>>> When alphabetizing titles and such I would ignore all non-letters.
>>
>> So you'd put both of those under D?

> My mistake. I should have written "special characters". I would sort
> numbers before letters. It was the underscore which I would ignore.

Got it. The _ was supposed to indicate that the titles were underlined.
My point was, in the system where you alphabetize the title 1984 as if
it were Nineteen Eighty-Four, is "101" alphabetized as "One Hundred
One" or "One Hundred and One"? (Or something starting with "A
Hundred"?)

--
Jerry Friedman

On Thu, 18 Apr 2024, at 20:01:08, Sam Plusnet posted:
>On 18-Apr-24 15:14, jerryfriedman wrote:
>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>
>>> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:
>>>> >>That's a dope question, fo' sho'!
>>>>
>>>> >   "Dope question" meaning "excellent question" here as in
>>>> >   the slang expression, not "dope" as in "a silly person"!
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that might inadvertently offended the OP.  Speaking of which,
>>>> imitation is often used for mockery, and your imitations of non-
>>>> standard dialects strike me as much more likely to offend people
>>>> than, say, profanity is.
>>
>>> Still, it would be a nice research project:
>>> translating for example Oxford English into American Redneck,
>>> and vica versa.
>> Vice-versa is more common--for instance, the subtitled "jive" in
>> the movie /Airplane/.
>> Pastor Trey Ferguson is creating the New Living Treyslation of the
>> Bible into AAVE.
>> https://www.pastortrey05.com/
>
>This reminded me of a (very) old Peter Cook & Dudley Moore sketch:
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za08oosFmpI
>
Congratulations on your memory. They don't make humour like that any
more - but I don't really see why not. Fashion, I suppose. My sense of
humour is anchored between 1950 and 1970(+).
--
Paul W

On 2024-04-18 10:18, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> jerryfriedman wrote:
>
>>>> At least in English, unlike French, there's a nearly complete
>>>> consensus on the names of the numbers. But does _101 Dalmatians_
>>>> come before or after (*wikips*) the Korean TV series _100 Days
>>>> My Prince_?
>>
>>> When alphabetizing titles and such I would ignore all non-letters.
>>
>> So you'd put both of those under D?
>
> My mistake. I should have written "special characters". I would sort
> numbers before letters. It was the underscore which I would ignore.

One thing that bothers me about Linux (or at least the distro I am
using" is that leading special characters are not in alphabetical order.
This means that I can't use punctuation to place something at the
beginning of a list.

To do that, O generally put a digit in front of the '_'.

--
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

On 2024-04-17 23:44, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 18/04/24 14:39, Silvano wrote:
>> Garrett Wollman hat am 17.04.2024 um 23:43 geschrieben:
>
>>> For someone
>>> actually using the index, who probably just wants to find the meaning
>>> of that '`' character, they may not know that backtick is inexplicably
>>> called "GRAVE ACCENT" in the Unicode table.
>>
>> Inexplicably? How else do you call it?
>>
>> I do not know about mathematicians, but the linguists who invented
>> Unicode are trying to list there letters, ideograms and other symbols
>> used in all known languages. And "`" has been called "accent grave" for
>> centuries in French.
>
> Backtick is a new one to me. Is that used anywhere?

I've never called it anything else. Linux folks would generally do the same.

I am reminded of a punctuation poem..

^<@<.@*
}"_# |
-@$&/_%
!( @|=>
;`+$?^?
,#"~|)^G

Translation:

hat less at less point at star
backbrace double base pound space bar
dash at cash and slash base rate
wow open tab at bar is great
semi backquote plus cash huh DEL
comma pound double tilde bar close BEL

--
If any two days of your life are the same, one of them was unnecessary.
-James P. Hogan

On 18/04/24 21:31, HVS wrote:

> I recall seeing a town-planning cartoon,[1] where an earnest new guy
> listed the street names in alphabetical order:
>
> Fifth
> First
> Fourth
> Second
> Third
>
> [1]A bit niche, but yes, such things exist...

He probably had CDO.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Thu, 18 Apr 2024 15:24:09 -0600: lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> scribeva:

>On 2024-04-18 10:18, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> jerryfriedman wrote:
>>
>>>>> At least in English, unlike French, there's a nearly complete
>>>>> consensus on the names of the numbers. But does _101 Dalmatians_
>>>>> come before or after (*wikips*) the Korean TV series _100 Days
>>>>> My Prince_?
>>>
>>>> When alphabetizing titles and such I would ignore all non-letters.
>>>
>>> So you'd put both of those under D?
>>
>> My mistake. I should have written "special characters". I would sort
>> numbers before letters. It was the underscore which I would ignore.
>
>One thing that bothers me about Linux (or at least the distro I am
>using" is that leading special characters are not in alphabetical order.
>This means that I can't use punctuation to place something at the
>beginning of a list.

That's not Linux, and not the distro. That's locale, or an option to
sort(1) or qsort(3). You probably have some option 'dictionary sort'
active.

Locales C or POSIX will sort on the characters proper, (in fact,
bytes, of UTF8), without interpreting them.

>To do that, O generally put a digit in front of the '_'.

Shouldn't be necessary, given the right locale.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Fri, 19 Apr 2024 08:10:33 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
>Locales C or POSIX will sort on the characters proper, (in fact,
>bytes, of UTF8), without interpreting them.

More on topic, how is "locale" pronounced in English, I wonder? I tend
to say it as if it were Italian or Spanish. But is that right for
English?

To answer my own question:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/locale#English

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> To answer my own question:
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/locale#English

The sound is better here:

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/locale?q=locale

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Ruud Harmsen:
> More on topic, how is "locale" pronounced in English, I wonder?

Low-KAL is the only way I've heard.
--
Mark Brader | ...I am constantly surprised by the questions which apparently
Toronto | have not been litigated, at least to the point of producing
msb@vex.net | an appellate decision. --Richard R. Hershberger

On 19/04/24 17:31, Mark Brader wrote:
> Ruud Harmsen:
>> More on topic, how is "locale" pronounced in English, I wonder?
>
> Low-KAL is the only way I've heard.

And Low-Carl is the only way I've heard.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 2024-04-19 07:50:35 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 19/04/24 17:31, Mark Brader wrote:
>> Ruud Harmsen:
>>> More on topic, how is "locale" pronounced in English, I wonder?
>>
>> Low-KAL is the only way I've heard.
>
> And Low-Carl is the only way I've heard.

AOL

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Le 17/04/2024 à 17:17, James Harris a écrit :
>
> If preparing a book it's natural to append an index of key words and to
> list them in alphabetical order. But what if one wanted to index a
> technical book in which a reader may want to look up 'symbols' which
> begin with or are made up of punctuation characters? What order should
> they appear in?
>
> For example, should a symbol such as
>
>   %%
>
> come before of after a symbol such as
>
>   !=
>
> and where would
>
>   $
>
> fit in?
>
> I thought about following ASCII but it has its punctuation characters in
> an unintuitive order - for example, its single and double quotes are not
> adjacent and it has backslash in between opening and closing square
> brackets. Neither of those makes much sense to a human.
>
> Hence the query: does anyone know of a suitable standard or
> human-friendly ordering for punctuation symbols?

I think I'd list them in groups according to the symbols' function -
arithmetic operators, Boolean, comparison, bitwise, and so on, with
these headings arranged alphabetically ("Operators, arithmetic" etc.).
The groups would be small and easily scanned, so the order within them
would be unimportant.

Fri, 19 Apr 2024 17:50:35 +1000: Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:

>On 19/04/24 17:31, Mark Brader wrote:
>> Ruud Harmsen:
>>> More on topic, how is "locale" pronounced in English, I wonder?
>>
>> Low-KAL is the only way I've heard.
>
>And Low-Carl is the only way I've heard.

US vs UK, says Wiktionary, where probably anything non-US and
non-Canada counts as UK.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Fri, 19 Apr 2024 10:26:43 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com>
scribeva:

>On 2024-04-19 07:50:35 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
>> On 19/04/24 17:31, Mark Brader wrote:
>>> Ruud Harmsen:
>>>> More on topic, how is "locale" pronounced in English, I wonder?
>>>
>>> Low-KAL is the only way I've heard.
>>
>> And Low-Carl is the only way I've heard.
>
>AOL

What does that mean, in this context?
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

On Fri, 19 Apr 2024 10:14:50, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

>>Locales C or POSIX will sort on the characters proper, (in fact,
>>bytes, of UTF8), without interpreting them.
> More on topic, how is "locale" pronounced in English, I wonder? I tend
> to say it as if it were Italian or Spanish. But is that right for
> English?
> To answer my own question:
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/locale#English

Locale is French ("e" drops), Finale is Italian ("e" retains).

Although, Genre is French (but "e" retains).

--
.... Jenkinson's Law: It won't work.

Fri, 19 Apr 2024 09:34:10 +0200: Bertel Lund Hansen
<gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> scribeva:

>Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> To answer my own question:
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/locale#English
>
>The sound is better here:
>
>https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/locale?q=locale

Yes, very clear sound, thanks.
I was surprised to learn the word also has meaning outside of
Information Technology.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Gleb Hlebov <Gleb.Hlebov@f360.n221.z2.fidonet.fi> wrote or quoted:
>Locale is French ("e" drops), Finale is Italian ("e" retains).

|locale ləʊ ˈkɑːl ‖ loʊ ˈkæl ~s z
Wells

‖ separates BrE (left) from AmE (right)

(The Brits be droppin' that [ʊ] sound sometimes when they're talkin'.
It's like, they just be skippin' over that part, no biggie.)

On 19/04/24 20:50, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Fri, 19 Apr 2024 10:26:43 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com>
> scribeva:
>
>> On 2024-04-19 07:50:35 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>>
>>> On 19/04/24 17:31, Mark Brader wrote:
>>>> Ruud Harmsen:
>>>>> More on topic, how is "locale" pronounced in English, I
>>>>> wonder?
>>>>
>>>> Low-KAL is the only way I've heard.
>>>
>>> And Low-Carl is the only way I've heard.
>>
>> AOL
>
> What does that mean, in this context?

America On Line.

It started when the company AOL handed out huge numbers of floppy disks
which enabled beginners to sign up for a Usenet account. (And possibly
other services; I don't know that part of the story.) All of a sudden
lots of clueless newbies turned up in newsgroups, replying "Me too" to a
lot of postings. As a result many of us started using "AOL" as an
abbreviation for "Me too".

You can get more of the story by googling for "eternal September".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 19/04/24 20:46, Gleb Hlebov wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Apr 2024 10:14:50, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
>>> Locales C or POSIX will sort on the characters proper, (in fact,
>>> bytes, of UTF8), without interpreting them.
>> More on topic, how is "locale" pronounced in English, I wonder? I
>> tend to say it as if it were Italian or Spanish. But is that right
>> for English? To answer my own question:
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/locale#English
>
> Locale is French ("e" drops), Finale is Italian ("e" retains).
>
> Although, Genre is French (but "e" retains).

The "e" is retained in any French word that ends in a consonant followed
by "re". Centre, être, and a whole lot of others.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

[...]

> >> AOL
> >
> > What does that mean, in this context?
>
> America On Line.
>
> It started when the company AOL handed out huge numbers of floppy disks
> which enabled beginners to sign up for a Usenet account. (And possibly
> other services; I don't know that part of the story.) All of a sudden
> lots of clueless newbies turned up in newsgroups, replying "Me too" to a
> lot of postings. As a result many of us started using "AOL" as an
> abbreviation for "Me too".
>

"Agreeing Out Loud", "Me too", or in modern parlance, "+1".
All should be deprecated.

>
> You can get more of the story by googling for "eternal September".

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.

On 19/04/2024 11:41, Hibou wrote:
> Le 17/04/2024 à 17:17, James Harris a écrit :

....

>> Hence the query: does anyone know of a suitable standard or
>> human-friendly ordering for punctuation symbols?
>
> I think I'd list them in groups according to the symbols' function -
> arithmetic operators, Boolean, comparison, bitwise, and so on, with
> these headings arranged alphabetically ("Operators, arithmetic" etc.).
> The groups would be small and easily scanned, so the order within them
> would be unimportant.

I thought that to, to a degree, but am moving away from it. What's
really needed is a standard sequence which can apply irrespective of the
use to which the punctuation characters are being put.

In reality, the early computer field used punctuation from whatever
characters were available on the equipment of the time and ended up
adopting e.g. * for multiply and / for divide. But such characters would
likely have very different meanings in a book about classification
theory, for instance. Even in computing, an asterisk can have meanings
other than multiplication.

AISI as humans we ought to to be able to look at a particular
punctuation character and 'know' whether it comes before or after
another regardless of the context. Then an index would be usable whether
the book happened to be about computing, classification theory, or whatever.

--
James Harris

Le 19/04/2024 à 13:11, James Harris a écrit :
>
> AISI as humans we ought to  to be able to look at a particular
> punctuation character and 'know' whether it comes before or after
> another regardless of the context. Then an index would be usable whether
> the book happened to be about computing, classification theory, or
> whatever.

I think that's a specialist requirement. Numbers have magnitude, so
order themselves naturally; we use the alphabet for sorting, too - but
there's no need for order if letters are used only for writing words.
Why should inverted commas, ticks, 'therefore' signs, pound signs,
hashes, and daggers come before or after each other? A big problem in
imposing an order on them is that there are an enormous number of them,
no-one uses more than a small subset, and so people are never going to
know where to put most of them.

<https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Unicode/List_of_useful_symbols>

On 2024-04-19 11:06:25 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 19/04/24 20:50, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Fri, 19 Apr 2024 10:26:43 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com>
>> scribeva:
>>
>>> On 2024-04-19 07:50:35 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>>>
>>>> On 19/04/24 17:31, Mark Brader wrote:
>>>>> Ruud Harmsen:
>>>>>> More on topic, how is "locale" pronounced in English, I
>>>>>> wonder?
>>>>>
>>>>> Low-KAL is the only way I've heard.
>>>>
>>>> And Low-Carl is the only way I've heard.
>>>
>>> AOL
>>
>> What does that mean, in this context?
>
> America On Line.
>
> It started when the company AOL handed out huge numbers of floppy disks
> which enabled beginners to sign up for a Usenet account. (And possibly
> other services; I don't know that part of the story.) All of a sudden
> lots of clueless newbies turned up in newsgroups, replying "Me too" to a
> lot of postings. As a result many of us started using "AOL" as an
> abbreviation for "Me too".
>
> You can get more of the story by googling for "eternal September".

I'm surprised that Ruud didn't know that. He claims to have been around
for a long time.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 19/04/24 17:31, Mark Brader wrote:
>> Ruud Harmsen:
>>> More on topic, how is "locale" pronounced in English, I wonder?
>>
>> Low-KAL is the only way I've heard.

> And Low-Carl is the only way I've heard.

So the opposite of "pasta", for instance, where BrAusEtcE has /A/
and AmE has /&/. Good, this is English, and we don't like
consistency.

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 19/04/24 20:46, Gleb Hlebov wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Apr 2024 10:14:50, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Locales C or POSIX will sort on the characters proper, (in fact,
>>>> bytes, of UTF8), without interpreting them.
>>> More on topic, how is "locale" pronounced in English, I wonder? I
>>> tend to say it as if it were Italian or Spanish. But is that right
>>> for English? To answer my own question:
>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/locale#English
>>
>> Locale is French ("e" drops), Finale is Italian ("e" retains).
>>
>> Although, Genre is French (but "e" retains).

> The "e" is retained in any French word that ends in a consonant followed
> by "re". Centre, être, and a whole lot of others.

"Macabre" is often an exception in the U.S. There might be one of
two others.

And of course, the -re is pronounced differently in "genre" from
"ogre".

--
Jerry Friedman