On 19.01.2024 14:35, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> In addition, earlier versions of Thunderbird work a whole lot better
> than later versions. I'm using a fairly old version.

So do I.

> I tried a later version, but didn't like it.

I think the auto-update of the Linux distro did an update "for me"
and spoiled it already. Newer versions I didn't try; my system is
now (deliberately) frozen. (Another undesired auto-update came
with some new platform update mechanism - I forgot its name - and
made my system further unbootable; I had to purge the whole beast
and install from scratch (without that new mechanism). - The world
seems to rotate backwards...)

> I have a lot of respect for the Thunderbird
> development team, but I think they've been sucked in to the Microsoft
> "bells and whistles" philosophy. In my opinion they need to delete a lot
> of the bells, and even more of the whistles.

If it only would be bells and whistles. Somehow they went two steps
backwards at some point, instead of providing a more sophisticated
interface. (IMO)

I already spoke about a stupid default, and the unintuitive GUI.
If GUI oriented, why don't they just use the images of the buttons
for example? (Just a rhetorical question.)

> A pity. It was one of the best mail/news programs a few years ago. It's
> still a whole lot better than Google Groups, but that's not saying much.

Connecting to mail and newsgroups is fairly easy with Thunderbird
(and I wonder why the OP needed an hour for the setup). But using it
is okay once the GUI got fixed at least a bit. But beyond that it's
just a typical GUI application. The Unix command line newsreader I
used in the 1990's called 'nn' was (as far as memory serves) much
better usable; no graphic UI though, so not everyones preference.

Janis

On 19/01/2024 15:42, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 19.01.2024 14:35, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>
>> A pity. It was one of the best mail/news programs a few years ago. It's
>> still a whole lot better than Google Groups, but that's not saying much.
>
> Connecting to mail and newsgroups is fairly easy with Thunderbird
> (and I wonder why the OP needed an hour for the setup). But using it
> is okay once the GUI got fixed at least a bit. But beyond that it's
> just a typical GUI application. The Unix command line newsreader I
> used in the 1990's called 'nn' was (as far as memory serves) much
> better usable; no graphic UI though, so not everyones preference.
>

THunderbird GUI isn't great, but that's not my objection. Though I'm typing
the first line in blue then it goes to black for the second line, and
it's obviously bugged. My objection is that you've got to install
special software to read newsgroups, and it's tied to that machine.
Eternal September allowed me to subscribe and gave me a user id and a
password. But it wasn't obvious how to set up Thunderbird to pass it
back to Eternal September. The secret is that you have to check the "ask
for authorisation" box, then close down Thunderbird and relaunch it.
From downloading Thunderbird to getting that working took about a hour,
mainly because you are looking for fields in the "settings" dialog, and
not finding them. And I'm a professional computer programmer. For a
consumer product, this is just not acceptable.

Janis Papanagnou:

> I already spoke about a stupid default, and the
> unintuitive GUI. If GUI oriented, why don't they just use
> the images of the buttons for example? (Just a rhetorical
> question.)

It is an established fact (see /The Humane Interface/ by Jef
Ruskin) from UI design that a text label is better than a
pictogram or image without annotation.

> The Unix command line newsreader I used in the 1990's
> called 'nn' was (as far as memory serves) much better
> usable; no graphic UI though, so not everyones preference.

Not a command-line, but a text-mode newsreader. Command-
line programs have no GUI, whereas text-modes have one,
which is not raster-based but character-cell-based. I have
never used `nn', but have used other command-line
newsreader -- `tin' and `slrn'.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

Malcolm McLean about Thunderbird:

> My objection is that you've got to install special
> software to read newsgroups, and it's tied to that
> machine.

Alternatively, you can use a portable newsreader, such as
Sylpheed. Migration is as simple as copying a directory to
the new machine. You can even run it from a USB stick.

> Eternal September allowed me to subscribe and gave me a
> user id and a password. But it wasn't obvious how to set
> up Thunderbird to pass it back to Eternal September. The
> secret is that you have to check the "ask for
> authorisation" box, then close down Thunderbird and
> relaunch it.

This has been a staple newbie question in the E.-S. support
group for years.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

On 19.01.2024 17:17, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>
> THunderbird GUI isn't great, but that's not my objection. Though I'm typing
> the first line in blue then it goes to black for the second line,

Strange. (I've never seen that.)

> and it's obviously bugged.

(A platform or version issue? - We cannot clarify that here.)

> My objection is that you've got to install
> special software to read newsgroups, and it's tied to that machine.

The first part is understandable; NNTP is an own protocol that
requires a piece of software (an application) to implement it.

(Here I must note that I'm not a fan of all-web-based-software
all done in a browser.)

I see your point about being machine bound; sort of "non-cloud".

> Eternal September allowed me to subscribe and gave me a user id and a
> password. But it wasn't obvious how to set up Thunderbird to pass it
> back to Eternal September. The secret is that you have to check the "ask
> for authorisation" box, then close down Thunderbird and relaunch it.

Ah, right. When my ISP shut down Usenet access and I wend to E.S.
I was repelled by the necessity to login with credentialy - my
ISP access had not required that (and I think AIOE.org also not),
and this may be (if only small) an obstacle; I forget about it
despite the necessity to re-enter credentials from time to time.

> From downloading Thunderbird to getting that working took about a hour,
> mainly because you are looking for fields in the "settings" dialog, and
> not finding them. And I'm a professional computer programmer. For a
> consumer product, this is just not acceptable.

I see.

I probably took it easier because in former configurations there
was the necessity, IIRC, to configure yet more details manually.
That's what probably influenced by positive view on how easy it
appeared to me with the newer versions.

Janis

Janis Papanagnou:

> The Unix command line newsreader I used in the 1990's
> called 'nn' was (as far as memory serves) much better
> usable

Not /was/ but /is/: <http://www.nndev.org/>

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

On 19/01/2024 13:35, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 19/01/24 22:55, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> On 18.01.2024 16:03, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>> Google groups has gone.
>>>
>>> I've had to go to Mozilla ThunderBird and Eternal September.
>>>
>>> An hour to configure, and I think I replied to Kenny's personal
>>> email by accident.
>>>
>>> It's much less convenient.
>>
>> The initial Thunderbird configuration is sick; they support a more
>> sensible "Smart Reply" feature but instead use an inappropriate one
>> as default. The user interface to fix that is non-intuitive, even if
>>  you manage to land on the right window by accident after selecting
>> the "right" menu it's not intuitive. The menus also vary depending
>> on version (and probably also depending on platform), as I noticed,
>> and I had problems to find the right window again after an update.
>>
>> Anyway, my suggestion to try is; right click on the 'Reply' button,
>> ->"Customize...", then you can drag and drop from the new window
>> with the icons elements to the other window's bar and/or remove
>> 'Reply' button by dragging it to the opened window. - This is what at
>> least works in my rather old Thunderbird version. - Good luck!
>>
>> Once you've done the configuration it works pretty well, though.
>
> Yes, that's exactly what I recommended. Get rid of the original "Reply"
> button, and Thunderbird works a whole lot better.
>
> In addition, earlier versions of Thunderbird work a whole lot better
> than later versions. I'm using a fairly old version. I tried a later
> version, but didn't like it. I have a lot of respect for the Thunderbird
> development team, but I think they've been sucked in to the Microsoft
> "bells and whistles" philosophy. In my opinion they need to delete a lot
> of the bells, and even more of the whistles.
>
> A pity. It was one of the best mail/news programs a few years ago. It's
> still a whole lot better than Google Groups, but that's not saying much.
>
I'm trying out the sig. But is it clickable?
--
Check out Basic Algorithms and my other books:
https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/bgy1mm

On 19.01.2024 17:26, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> Janis Papanagnou:
>
>> I already spoke about a stupid default, and the
>> unintuitive GUI. If GUI oriented, why don't they just use
>> the images of the buttons for example? (Just a rhetorical
>> question.)
>
> It is an established fact (see /The Humane Interface/ by Jef
> Ruskin) from UI design that a text label is better than a
> pictogram or image without annotation.

Annotations are fine. That Thunderbird window, though, has a text
label that is non-informative ("smart-reply" = "followup"?) and
the icon isn't matching the button (has no "recognition value").
I consider that an extremely (and unnecessary) bad interface.

>
>> The Unix command line newsreader I used in the 1990's
>> called 'nn' was (as far as memory serves) much better
>> usable; no graphic UI though, so not everyones preference.
>
> Not a command-line, but a text-mode newsreader.

Right. (I didn't think when typing.)

> [...] I have
> never used `nn', but have used other command-line
> newsreader -- `tin' and `slrn'.

When 'nn' wasn't supported any more on our AIX platform I also
switched to 'tin' (or rather 'rtin'), but only for short. It
was okay but I liked 'nn' better.

I've heard good things about 'slrn' but never looked at it.

Janis

Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> writes:
>Janis Papanagnou:
>
>> I already spoke about a stupid default, and the
>> unintuitive GUI. If GUI oriented, why don't they just use
>> the images of the buttons for example? (Just a rhetorical
>> question.)
>
>It is an established fact (see /The Humane Interface/ by Jef
>Ruskin) from UI design that a text label is better than a
>pictogram or image without annotation.
>
>> The Unix command line newsreader I used in the 1990's
>> called 'nn' was (as far as memory serves) much better
>> usable; no graphic UI though, so not everyones preference.
>
>Not a command-line, but a text-mode newsreader. Command-
>line programs have no GUI, whereas text-modes have one,
>which is not raster-based but character-cell-based. I have
>never used `nn', but have used other command-line
>newsreader -- `tin' and `slrn'.

xrn is the best of both worlds. text-mode with a minimal gui.

Malcolm McLean:

> I'm trying out the sig. But is it clickable?
> --
> Check out Basic Algorithms and my other books:
> https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/bgy1mm

Depends on one's client. The convention, however, is to
enclose URLs in angular brackets:
<https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/bgy1mm>
In many clients, this causes URLs to become clickable. I
much prefer to copy them into the browser by hand, though.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

On 2024-01-19, Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> wrote:
> THunderbird GUI isn't great, but that's not my objection. Though I'm typing
> the first line in blue then it goes to black for the second line, and

My my, hey hey.

--
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca
NOTE: If you use Google Groups, I don't see you, unless you're whitelisted.

On 19-Jan-24 11:55, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 18.01.2024 16:03, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> Google groups has gone.
>>
>> I've had to go to Mozilla ThunderBird and Eternal September.
>>
>> An hour to configure, and I think I replied to Kenny's personal email
>> by accident.
>>
>> It's much less convenient.
>
> The initial Thunderbird configuration is sick; they support a more
> sensible "Smart Reply" feature but instead use an inappropriate one
> as default. The user interface to fix that is non-intuitive, even if
> you manage to land on the right window by accident after selecting
> the "right" menu it's not intuitive. The menus also vary depending
> on version (and probably also depending on platform), as I noticed,
> and I had problems to find the right window again after an update.
>
> Anyway, my suggestion to try is; right click on the 'Reply' button,
> ->"Customize...", then you can drag and drop from the new window
> with the icons elements to the other window's bar and/or remove
> 'Reply' button by dragging it to the opened window. - This is what
> at least works in my rather old Thunderbird version. - Good luck!
>
> Once you've done the configuration it works pretty well, though.

Thanks for the suggestion, but here (version 115.6.1 (64 bit) running on
Win10), right clicking on the "Reply" button does nothing.

If I hit the "More" button at the far right of that row of buttons,
"Customise" then appears as the last entry in a drop down menu.
However that "Customise" only offers a very few options, & none of them
allow any changes to the buttons.

I'm still at square one.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 2024-01-19 12:28, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 19-Jan-24 11:55, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> On 18.01.2024 16:03, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>> Google groups has gone.
>>>
>>> I've had to go to Mozilla ThunderBird and Eternal September.
>>>
>>> An hour to configure, and I think I replied to Kenny's personal email
>>> by accident.
>>>
>>> It's much less convenient.
>>
>> The initial Thunderbird configuration is sick; they support a more
>> sensible "Smart Reply" feature but instead use an inappropriate one
>> as default. The user interface to fix that is non-intuitive, even if
>> you manage to land on the right window by accident after selecting
>> the "right" menu it's not intuitive. The menus also vary depending
>> on version (and probably also depending on platform), as I noticed,
>> and I had problems to find the right window again after an update.
>>
>> Anyway, my suggestion to try is; right click on the 'Reply' button,
>> ->"Customize...", then you can drag and drop from the new window
>> with the icons elements to the other window's bar and/or remove
>> 'Reply' button by dragging it to the opened window. - This is what
>> at least works in my rather old Thunderbird version. - Good luck!
>>
>> Once you've done the configuration it works pretty well, though.
>
> Thanks for the suggestion, but here (version 115.6.1 (64 bit) running on
> Win10), right clicking on the "Reply" button does nothing.
>
> If I hit the "More" button at the far right of that row of buttons,
> "Customise" then appears as the last entry in a drop down menu.
> However that "Customise" only offers a very few options, & none of them
> allow any changes to the buttons.
>
> I'm still at square one.

I'm running 115,6,1 (64 bit) but on Ubuntu MATE. I would imagine the
user interface is the same on the Win 10 and Linux versions.

Do you have a 'Followup' button with a drop-down arrow? The default is
"Followup".

Once this conversation started mentioning the "Reply" button, I took
notice of them, and have been using the Followup instead of
'right-click->Followup to Newsgroup', and have not sent a reply to
sender since.

--
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns
something he can learn in no other way.
~ Mark Twain.

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.lang.c.]
On 2024-01-19, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> Malcolm McLean:
>
>> I'm trying out the sig. But is it clickable?
>> --
>> Check out Basic Algorithms and my other books:
>> https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/bgy1mm
>
> Depends on one's client. The convention, however, is to
> enclose URLs in angular brackets:
><https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/bgy1mm>
> In many clients, this causes URLs to become clickable. I
> much prefer to copy them into the browser by hand, though.

Both are "clickable" here in slrn -- well, at least "U" (note, that's
specifically a capital "U", when reading either post) finds both the
representation in Malcom's signature, and your angle-bracketed version.

(They're also "clickable" when running slrn via xterm, but that's not
quite as representative, I think).

--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

Janis Papanagnou wrote:

> Ah, right. When my ISP shut down Usenet access and I wend to E.S.
> I was repelled by the necessity to login with credentialy - my
> ISP access had not required that (and I think AIOE.org also not),
> and this may be (if only small) an obstacle; I forget about it
> despite the necessity to re-enter credentials from time to time.

I have used ES for years and I only have to enter the access info once -
unless I make a new install. I also do not recognize the relaunch thing.
Is that because I always choose manual install? It's finished in
minutes.

The detailed setup with extensions and all took longer, but the basic
function is working with the first step.

--
Bertel, Denmark

On 19/01/2024 16:45, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 19.01.2024 17:17, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>
>> THunderbird GUI isn't great, but that's not my objection. Though I'm typing
>> the first line in blue then it goes to black for the second line,
>
> Strange. (I've never seen that.)

If you don't leave a blank line when replying inline (like this), it can
happen. However that's just in the composition screen. It all reverts to
black when sent. No colour info in plain text.

>
>> and it's obviously bugged.
>
> (A platform or version issue? - We cannot clarify that here.)
>
>> My objection is that you've got to install
>> special software to read newsgroups, and it's tied to that machine.

How is this true? TBird (v52) works well for me with Thunderbrowse
add-on (Win10) for NNTP News, eMail, RSS feeds. Default setup directory
copied to Linux (Slackware, Mint) works without complaining (except
installing/reinstalling some add-ons).
Thunderbrowse is the reason I keep to v52.

>
> The first part is understandable; NNTP is an own protocol that
> requires a piece of software (an application) to implement it.
>
> (Here I must note that I'm not a fan of all-web-based-software
> all done in a browser.)
>
> I see your point about being machine bound; sort of "non-cloud".
>
>> Eternal September allowed me to subscribe and gave me a user id and a
>> password. But it wasn't obvious how to set up Thunderbird to pass it
>> back to Eternal September. The secret is that you have to check the "ask
>> for authorisation" box, then close down Thunderbird and relaunch it.
>
> Ah, right. When my ISP shut down Usenet access and I wend to E.S.
> I was repelled by the necessity to login with credentialy - my
> ISP access had not required that (and I think AIOE.org also not),
> and this may be (if only small) an obstacle; I forget about it
> despite the necessity to re-enter credentials from time to time.
>
>> From downloading Thunderbird to getting that working took about a hour,
>> mainly because you are looking for fields in the "settings" dialog, and
>> not finding them. And I'm a professional computer programmer. For a
>> consumer product, this is just not acceptable.
>
> I see.
>
> I probably took it easier because in former configurations there
> was the necessity, IIRC, to configure yet more details manually.
> That's what probably influenced by positive view on how easy it
> appeared to me with the newer versions.
>
> Janis
>

--
Chris Elvidge, England
I WILL NOT CREATE ART FROM DUNG