French uses "ne" (or its contracted forms) in various situations where
English wouldn't directly translate with "not."

Here are some examples:

0.-- Negation with certain expressions:

English: I hardly ever see him.
French: Je ne le vois presque jamais. (Literally: I not him see almost
never)

Here, "ne" negates the verb "vois" (see), but "pas" isn't used. Instead,
"presque jamais" (almost never) conveys the idea of "hardly."

1.-- Idiomatic expressions:

English: It doesn't matter.
French: Ça ne fait rien (Literally: That not does nothing)

"Ne" negates the verb phrase "fait rien" (does nothing) to express that
something has no consequence.

2.-- Negation with "que":

English: I only have ten euros.
French: Je n'ai que dix euros. (Literally: I not have only ten euros)

Here, "ne" negates the verb "ai" (have), but "que" (only) emphasizes
the limited quantity, conveying the same meaning as the English sentence.

3.-- Negation with specific pronouns:

French: Personne ne sait.
English: Nobody knows.

French uses specific negative pronouns like "personne" (nobody) that
directly express negation, whereas English relies on the pronoun itself.

4.-- Negation with comparisons:

English: He is not as tall as me.
French: Il n'est pas aussi grand que moi. (Literally: He not is not as
big as me)

French uses "ne" before the verb "est" (is) and reinforces negation with
"pas" before the comparative adjective "aussi grand" (as big).

5.-- Negation with infinitives:

English: I told him not to come.
French: Je lui ai dit de ne pas venir. (Literally: I to him told of not
to come)

French places "ne" before the infinitive "venir" (to come) to express
the negative command.

______________________________The pleonastic ne

Examples:

Je crains qu'il ne pleuve. (I fear it may rain.) - "Ne" emphasizes the
possibility of rain, a negative outcome.

Ces exercices sont plus difficiles que je ne le pensais. (These
exercises are harder than I thought.) - "Ne" strengthens the unexpected
difficulty.

Crucially:

The pleonastic ne is optional. Sentences are grammatically correct
without it.

It's more prevalent in formal French and might be less common in spoken
language.

Le 12/03/2024 à 11:17, HenHanna a écrit :
>
> French uses "ne" (or its contracted forms) in various situations where
> English wouldn't directly translate with "not." [...]
>
> Crucially:
>
> The pleonastic ne is optional. Sentences are grammatically correct
> without it. [...]

It's more complicated than that, p.e. (par exemple) :

Il n'a plus d'énergie.
He has no more energy.

Il a plus d'énergie.
He has more energy.

'Ne' is quite important there.

I see that Grevisse, in 'Le bon usage', devotes a good few pages to 'ne'
and negation (Section 973 and onwards). I'm not even going to try to
summarise them (or even read and learn them - à mon avis, la vie est
déjà trop courte).

On 2024-03-12, Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

>> The pleonastic ne is optional. Sentences are grammatically correct
>> without it. [...]
>
> It's more complicated than that, p.e. (par exemple) :

"Pleonastic ne" refers to cases such as "Je crains qu'il ne pleuve".
It does not mean the "ne" in "ne..pas", "ne..plus", etc., which is
typically omitted in the spoken language.

> Il n'a plus d'énergie.
> He has no more energy.

/ply/

> Il a plus d'énergie.
> He has more energy.

/plys/

> 'Ne' is quite important there.

Only in writing, but the written register requires "ne" in any case.
The literary language also has affirmative "jamais" ('ever') and
even positive "rien" ('something').

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

https://old.reddit.com/r/French/comments/rlkhnr/je_ne_comprends_pas_vs_je_comprends_pas/

>>> French "ne" has almost totally lost its original meaning of 'not'.
Often plain "pas" is used instead of "ne ... pas" and
"jamais" instead of "ne ... jameais" and likewise with other negatives. <<<

Yes. That's a great point!


For 10 points, name the movie and actor... he says in the opening scene [Je comprends pas]

For 20 points, evaluate his French accent in that movie

For 50 points, name the (late 20 century) French philosopher who studied Negation and [but]

For 1000 points, summarize his most famous assertions, theses, or observations.

______________________________The pleonastic ne

> Examples:

> Je crains qu'il ne pleuve. (I fear it may rain.) - "Ne" emphasizes the
> possibility of rain, a negative outcome.

> Ces exercices sont plus difficiles que je ne le pensais. (These
> exercises are harder than I thought.) - "Ne" strengthens the unexpected difficulty.



> Crucially:

> The pleonastic ne is optional. Sentences are grammatically correct without it.

> It's more prevalent in formal French and might be less common in spoken language.

___________________

Could someone confirm that the following NE is optional?

Dans le parti on ne connaît que des militants. (There are only militants in the party.)

----------- that 1 and 2 below are both good, and mean the same thing?

1. Dans le parti on ne connaît que des militants.
2. Dans le parti on connaît que des militants.

Both grammatical, and idiomatic?

omg... i'm sounding like You-know-who

Le 13/03/2024 à 06:06, HenHanna a écrit :
>
> Could someone confirm that the following NE is optional?
>
>   Dans le parti on ne connaît que des militants.  (There are only
> militants in the party.)

'Optional' is not the right term. It is often omitted in informal
speech. I wouldn't omit it in writing unless mimicking speech.

'Omission de « ne »' -
<https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9gation_en_fran%C3%A7ais#Omission_de_%C2%AB_ne_%C2%BB>

Hélas, rien ne va plus.

Hibou wrote: ------- THanks!

> Le 13/03/2024 à 06:06, HenHanna a écrit :
>>
>> Could someone confirm that the following NE is optional?
>>
>>   Dans le parti on ne connaît que des militants.  (There are only
>> militants in the party.)

> 'Optional' is not the right term. It is often omitted in informal
> speech. I wouldn't omit it in writing unless mimicking speech.

> 'Omission de « ne »' -
> <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9gation_en_fran%C3%A7ais#Omission_de_%C2%AB_ne_%C2%BB>

> Hélas, rien ne va plus. ------ Is this a famous quote? from a play?


>>   Dans le parti on ne connaît que des militants.  (There are only
>> militants in the party.)

this NE is a pleonastic ne ?

> (There are only militants in the party.)

In this party one finds only militants. ------ i think i prefer this translation. or this:

In this party there are only militants.

Tue, 12 Mar 2024 04:17:01 -0700: HenHanna <HenHanna@devnull.tb>
scribeva:

>3.-- Negation with specific pronouns:
>
>French: Personne ne sait.
>English: Nobody knows.
>
>French uses specific negative pronouns like "personne" (nobody) that
>directly express negation, whereas English relies on the pronoun itself.

In fact, the element "ne" expresses the negation, so litterally the
French says "no person knows". "Personne" in French can also mean
"person".

More such French negation constructions:
https://rudhar.com/etymolog/nepasre.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://rudhar.com/etymolog/nepasre.htm
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Op 24/03/2024 om 13:44 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
> Tue, 12 Mar 2024 04:17:01 -0700: HenHanna <HenHanna@devnull.tb>
> scribeva:
>
>> 3.-- Negation with specific pronouns:
>>
>> French: Personne ne sait.
>> English: Nobody knows.
>>
>> French uses specific negative pronouns like "personne" (nobody) that
>> directly express negation, whereas English relies on the pronoun itself.
>
> In fact, the element "ne" expresses the negation, so litterally the
> French says "no person knows". "Personne" in French can also mean
> "person".
But never in the position of negation (with or without "ne"), at least
without an article:

J'ai vu personne. Je n'ai vu personne.
=/=
J'ai vu une personne. J'ai vu la personne. J'ai vu cette personne.

and also
=/=
Je n'ai pas vu la/cette personne.

Personne (n') est venu.
=/=
Une personne est venue. La personne est venue. Cette personne est venue.

and also
=/=
La/cette personne n'est pas venue.

Other caveats with jamais, aucun, rien, ...

Also, "ne" expresses not only negation:

Je crains qu'il ne vienne me chercher.
J'ai peur qu'il ne soit trop tard.
Ce n'est qu'un au-revoir.
Ce n'est que moi.

--
guido wugi

On 2024-03-24, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

>>French: Personne ne sait.
>>English: Nobody knows.
>>
>>French uses specific negative pronouns like "personne" (nobody) that
>>directly express negation, whereas English relies on the pronoun itself.
>
> In fact, the element "ne" expresses the negation, so litterally the
> French says "no person knows".

That's etymology. In Old French, "ne" expressed the negation and
this was strengthened by "personne" (no person), "rien" (no thing),
"jamais" (not ever), etc. Eventually, the negated meaning shifted
over to those words. As we have mentioned several times already,
in contemporary spoken French, "ne" is frequently omitted, so it
can't express anything, because it isn't there.

This means the words that were combined with "ne" have actually
negated their meaning, e.g. "jamais" from 'ever' to 'never', etc.
This is something to be aware of when encountering their cognates
in other Romance languages; e.g. French "aucun" means 'none, no one',
but Spanish "alguno" means 'some'.

> "Personne" in French can also mean "person".

In which case it is accompanied by a determiner: une, la, cette, ...

> https://rudhar.com/etymolog/nepasre.htm

| "Jamais" without "ne" does really mean 'ever, sometime, at any time'.

Only in literary usage.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Sun, 24 Mar 2024 19:02:10 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
<naddy@mips.inka.de> scribeva:

>That's etymology. In Old French, "ne" expressed the negation and
>this was strengthened by "personne" (no person), "rien" (no thing),
>"jamais" (not ever), etc. Eventually, the negated meaning shifted
>over to those words. As we have mentioned several times already,
>in contemporary spoken French, "ne" is frequently omitted, so it
>can't express anything, because it isn't there.
>
>This means the words that were combined with "ne" have actually
>negated their meaning, e.g. "jamais" from 'ever' to 'never', etc.
>This is something to be aware of when encountering their cognates
>in other Romance languages; e.g. French "aucun" means 'none, no one',
>but Spanish "alguno" means 'some'.

True.

But I thought explaining the historic background would make it easier
for HenHenna to understand what is going on. And for myself for that
matter.

>> "Personne" in French can also mean "person".
>
>In which case it is accompanied by a determiner: une, la, cette, ...

Yes.

>> https://rudhar.com/etymolog/nepasre.htm
>
>| "Jamais" without "ne" does really mean 'ever, sometime, at any time'.
>
>Only in literary usage.

OK. Still so in Interlingua today, and I think also in Portuguese.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

On 2024-03-24 19:02:10 +0000, Christian Weisgerber said:

> On 2024-03-24, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
>>> French: Personne ne sait.
>>> English: Nobody knows.
>>>
>>> French uses specific negative pronouns like "personne" (nobody) that
>>> directly express negation, whereas English relies on the pronoun itself.
>>
>> In fact, the element "ne" expresses the negation, so litterally the
>> French says "no person knows".
>
> That's etymology. In Old French, "ne" expressed the negation and
> this was strengthened by "personne" (no person), "rien" (no thing),
> "jamais" (not ever), etc. Eventually, the negated meaning shifted
> over to those words. As we have mentioned several times already,
> in contemporary spoken French, "ne" is frequently omitted, so it
> can't express anything, because it isn't there.

I had an unfortunate experience with this about 35 years ago, when my
daughter was about 5 and fluent in French (at the level of a 5-year
old, of course). She had succeeded in something and I said (in English)
"You can do anything if you try". Unfortunately she took "anything" to
be equivalent to "rien", with the same negative meaning, and burst into
tears. I'm not sure if I convinced her that "anything" had no negative
implication. 35 years later her French is perfect (much better than
mine); her Spanish also (much better than mine); and her English
effortessly fluent.
>
> This means the words that were combined with "ne" have actually
> negated their meaning, e.g. "jamais" from 'ever' to 'never', etc.
> This is something to be aware of when encountering their cognates
> in other Romance languages; e.g. French "aucun" means 'none, no one',
> but Spanish "alguno" means 'some'.
>
>> "Personne" in French can also mean "person".
>
> In which case it is accompanied by a determiner: une, la, cette, ...
>
>> https://rudhar.com/etymolog/nepasre.htm
>
> | "Jamais" without "ne" does really mean 'ever, sometime, at any time'.
>
> Only in literary usage.

--
athel cb : Biochemical Evolution, Garland Science, 2016

Op 24/03/2024 om 20:02 schreef Christian Weisgerber:
> On 2024-03-24, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

>> In fact, the element "ne" expresses the negation, so litterally the
>> French says "no person knows".

No: "person n't knows".

BTW Germanic negations like "not, niet, nicht", are also descended from
an unstressed negation term ne- + some strengthening word, but the
negation particle kept stuck to the latter and thus didn't disappear
altogether.

> That's etymology. In Old French, "ne" expressed the negation and
> this was strengthened by "personne" (no person), "rien" (no thing),
> "jamais" (not ever), etc. Eventually, the negated meaning shifted
> over to those words. As we have mentioned several times already,
> in contemporary spoken French, "ne" is frequently omitted, so it
> can't express anything, because it isn't there.
>
> This means the words that were combined with "ne" have actually
> negated their meaning, e.g. "jamais" from 'ever' to 'never', etc.
> This is something to be aware of when encountering their cognates
> in other Romance languages; e.g. French "aucun" means 'none, no one',
> but Spanish "alguno" means 'some'.

D'aucuns remarqueront que dit comme ça, c'est incomplet.

>> "Personne" in French can also mean "person".
>
> In which case it is accompanied by a determiner: une, la, cette, ...
>
>> https://rudhar.com/etymolog/nepasre.htm
>
> | "Jamais" without "ne" does really mean 'ever, sometime, at any time'.
>
> Only in literary usage.

Si jamais je le vois, je lui dirai qu'ici aussi il manque un petit rien.

--
guido wugi

On 25/03/24 01:46, wugi wrote:
>
> Also, "ne" expresses not only negation:
>
> Je crains qu'il ne vienne me chercher.
> J'ai peur qu'il ne soit trop tard.
> Ce n'est qu'un au-revoir.
> Ce n'est que moi.

The first two of those are examples of the phenomenon that started this
thread: the use of "ne" with certain kinds of subjunctive, with a
non-negative meaning.

The second two are genuine negatives, where ne...que works the same way
as ne...pas and ne...jamais and so on. We learn that ne...que means
"only" in English, but if you analyse it down "Ce n'est que moi" really
means "It is not but me".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 25/03/24 01:46, wugi wrote:
>>
>> Also, "ne" expresses not only negation:
>>
>> Je crains qu'il ne vienne me chercher.
>> J'ai peur qu'il ne soit trop tard.
>> Ce n'est qu'un au-revoir.
>> Ce n'est que moi.

> The first two of those are examples of the phenomenon that started this
> thread: the use of "ne" with certain kinds of subjunctive, with a
> non-negative meaning.

...

I never thought about this when I was learning French, but I imagine
"I'm afraid that he won't come looking for me" is "Je crains qu'il ne
vienne pas me chercher"?

I need to figure out how to turn off autocorrect on this machine.
"Je brains quail..."

--
Jerry Friedman

Le 24/03/2024 à 20:55, wugi a écrit :
> Op 24/03/2024 om 20:02 schreef Christian Weisgerber:
>>
>> | "Jamais" without "ne" does really mean 'ever, sometime, at any time'.
>>
>> Only in literary usage.
>
> Si jamais je le vois, je lui dirai qu'ici aussi il manque un petit rien.

Manquer un petit rien, ce n'est pas rien.

Sun, 24 Mar 2024 21:55:05 +0100: wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> scribeva:

>Op 24/03/2024 om 20:02 schreef Christian Weisgerber:
>> On 2024-03-24, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
>>> In fact, the element "ne" expresses the negation, so litterally the
>>> French says "no person knows".
>
>No: "person n't knows".

Yes, better.

>BTW Germanic negations like "not, niet, nicht", are also descended from
>an unstressed negation term ne- + some strengthening word, but the
>negation particle kept stuck to the latter and thus didn't disappear
>altogether.

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Sun, 24 Mar 2024 19:02:10 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
> <naddy@mips.inka.de> scribeva:
>
>> That's etymology. In Old French, "ne" expressed the negation and
>> this was strengthened by "personne" (no person), "rien" (no thing),
>> "jamais" (not ever), etc. Eventually, the negated meaning shifted
>> over to those words. As we have mentioned several times already,
>> in contemporary spoken French, "ne" is frequently omitted, so it
>> can't express anything, because it isn't there.
>>
>> This means the words that were combined with "ne" have actually
>> negated their meaning, e.g. "jamais" from 'ever' to 'never', etc.
>> This is something to be aware of when encountering their cognates
>> in other Romance languages; e.g. French "aucun" means 'none, no one',
>> but Spanish "alguno" means 'some'.
>
> True.
>
> But I thought explaining the historic background would make it easier
> for HenHenna to understand what is going on. And for myself for that
> matter.
>
>>> "Personne" in French can also mean "person".
>>
>> In which case it is accompanied by a determiner: une, la, cette, ...
>
> Yes.
>
>>> https://rudhar.com/etymolog/nepasre.htm
>>
>> | "Jamais" without "ne" does really mean 'ever, sometime, at any time'.
>>
>> Only in literary usage.
>
> OK. Still so in Interlingua today, and I think also in Portuguese.

I'm not sure _jamais_ is even a portuguese word, but where it's used it
always means 'never', and isn't accompanied by _não_. If there's a _não_
nearby, it connects to something else in the sentence, _jamais_ is purely
negative on its own, just like 'never'.

As to a negative _algum_, there's the stock phrase _nunca, jamais, em tempo
algum_ 'never, never ever, at nonesoever moment', which you'll hear in
Brazil.
In Brazil you also meet _sequer_ 'not even', which in Portugal is much more
common but with a mandatory _nem_ preceding it.

Op 25/03/2024 om 0:15 schreef Peter Moylan:
> On 25/03/24 01:46, wugi wrote:
>>
>> Also, "ne" expresses not only negation:
>>
>> Je crains qu'il ne vienne me chercher.
>> J'ai peur qu'il ne soit trop tard.
>> Ce n'est qu'un au-revoir.
>> Ce n'est que moi.
>
> The first two of those are examples of the phenomenon that started this
> thread: the use of "ne" with certain kinds of subjunctive, with a
> non-negative meaning.

Yes. The origin is of course a Latin negation with conjunctive:
I'm afraid [that]/ may he *not* come.
But the meaning now is "I'm afraid that he comes", so no direct negative
left.

> The second two are genuine negatives, where ne...que works the same way
> as ne...pas and ne...jamais and so on. We learn that ne...que means
> "only" in English, but if you analyse it down "Ce n'est que moi" really
> means "It is not but me".

There is no direct negative left either, here. The "ne" particle refers
to some tacit term like "rien d'autre":
It is not [anything else] but an au-revoir.
So the "ne" is not a negative WRT "au-revoir" or "moi".

--
guido wugi

Mon, 25 Mar 2024 13:15:32 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
<no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:

>Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Sun, 24 Mar 2024 19:02:10 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
>> <naddy@mips.inka.de> scribeva:
>>> | "Jamais" without "ne" does really mean 'ever, sometime, at any time'.
>>>
>>> Only in literary usage.
>>
>> OK. Still so in Interlingua today, and I think also in Portuguese.
>
>I'm not sure _jamais_ is even a portuguese word, but where it's used it
>always means 'never', and isn't accompanied by _não_. If there's a _não_
>nearby, it connects to something else in the sentence, _jamais_ is purely
>negative on its own, just like 'never'.

I thought that was [pt] nunca / [ia] nunquam?

This https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/jamais
contradicts what you write. https://dicionario.priberam.org/jamais
seems to indicate [pt] jamais can mean Dutch [nl] ‘ooit’ and ‘nooit’,
English ‘ever’ and ‘never’.

>As to a negative _algum_, there's the stock phrase _nunca, jamais, em tempo
>algum_ 'never, never ever, at nonesoever moment', which you'll hear in
>Brazil.
>In Brazil you also meet _sequer_ 'not even', which in Portugal is much more
>common but with a mandatory _nem_ preceding it.

Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Mon, 25 Mar 2024 13:15:32 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
> <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:
>
>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>> Sun, 24 Mar 2024 19:02:10 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
>>> <naddy@mips.inka.de> scribeva:
>>>> | "Jamais" without "ne" does really mean 'ever, sometime, at any time'.
>>>>
>>>> Only in literary usage.
>>>
>>> OK. Still so in Interlingua today, and I think also in Portuguese.
>>
>> I'm not sure _jamais_ is even a portuguese word, but where it's used it
>> always means 'never', and isn't accompanied by _não_. If there's a _não_
>> nearby, it connects to something else in the sentence, _jamais_ is purely
>> negative on its own, just like 'never'.
>
> I thought that was [pt] nunca / [ia] nunquam?

They work just the same, the difference is that jamais is terribly marked.

> This https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/jamais
> contradicts what you write.

It's unfortunately wrong. Meaning 2 is contradictory and meaning 3 is in
dire need of an example.

> https://dicionario.priberam.org/jamais
> seems to indicate [pt] jamais can mean Dutch [nl] ‘ooit’ and ‘nooit’,
> English ‘ever’ and ‘never’.

Meaning 3 is borderline possible as a fossil usage, but I dare say pretty
much every speaker would interpret it as meaning 'never' in that case as
well.

Op 26/03/2024 om 8:10 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
> Mon, 25 Mar 2024 13:15:32 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
> <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:
>
>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>> Sun, 24 Mar 2024 19:02:10 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
>>> <naddy@mips.inka.de> scribeva:
>>>> | "Jamais" without "ne" does really mean 'ever, sometime, at any time'.
>>>>
>>>> Only in literary usage.
>>>
>>> OK. Still so in Interlingua today, and I think also in Portuguese.
>>
>> I'm not sure _jamais_ is even a portuguese word, but where it's used it
>> always means 'never', and isn't accompanied by _não_. If there's a _não_
>> nearby, it connects to something else in the sentence, _jamais_ is purely
>> negative on its own, just like 'never'.
>
> I thought that was [pt] nunca / [ia] nunquam?
>
> This https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/jamais
> contradicts what you write. https://dicionario.priberam.org/jamais
> seems to indicate [pt] jamais can mean Dutch [nl] ‘ooit’ and ‘nooit’,
> English ‘ever’ and ‘never’.
>
>> As to a negative _algum_, there's the stock phrase _nunca, jamais, em tempo
>> algum_ 'never, never ever, at nonesoever moment', which you'll hear in
>> Brazil.

My pocket dico says for 'jamais':
"never; (com palavra negativa) ever".
So it has to be always in a negative sense, but then I guess in pt., as
in sp., a double negative can be used for a simple one:
nadie jamás vino.
ninguém jamais veio.
nobody (n)ever came.

google translate:
si jamais je le vois ->
se algum dia eu o ver.

If I turn it around like
se jamais eu o ver ->
si je ne le vois jamais.

(same result in sp.)

>> In Brazil you also meet _sequer_ 'not even', which in Portugal is much more
>> common but with a mandatory _nem_ preceding it.

sp.: siquiera =/= ni siquiera

--
guido wugi

wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote:
> Op 26/03/2024 om 8:10 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>> Mon, 25 Mar 2024 13:15:32 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
>> <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:
>>
>>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>> Sun, 24 Mar 2024 19:02:10 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
>>>> <naddy@mips.inka.de> scribeva:
>>>>> | "Jamais" without "ne" does really mean 'ever, sometime, at any time'.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only in literary usage.
>>>>
>>>> OK. Still so in Interlingua today, and I think also in Portuguese.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure _jamais_ is even a portuguese word, but where it's used it
>>> always means 'never', and isn't accompanied by _não_. If there's a _não_
>>> nearby, it connects to something else in the sentence, _jamais_ is purely
>>> negative on its own, just like 'never'.
>>
>> I thought that was [pt] nunca / [ia] nunquam?
>>
>> This https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/jamais
>> contradicts what you write. https://dicionario.priberam.org/jamais
>> seems to indicate [pt] jamais can mean Dutch [nl] ‘ooit’ and ‘nooit’,
>> English ‘ever’ and ‘never’.
>>
>>> As to a negative _algum_, there's the stock phrase _nunca, jamais, em tempo
>>> algum_ 'never, never ever, at nonesoever moment', which you'll hear in
>>> Brazil.
>
> My pocket dico says for 'jamais':
> "never; (com palavra negativa) ever".
> So it has to be always in a negative sense, but then I guess in pt., as
> in sp., a double negative can be used for a simple one:

It would be q good hypothesis, but I don't think that's it. The matter of
fact is that the word may have been imported at some point, but it's never
caught on. If you ever find it in the wild, it'll most likely be used as an
expletive, 'never!'.

> nadie jamás vino.
> ninguém jamais veio.
> nobody (n)ever came.
>
> google translate:
> si jamais je le vois ->
> se algum dia eu o ver.
>
> If I turn it around like
> se jamais eu o ver ->
> si je ne le vois jamais.

vir (although the subjunctive is pretty much gone in Brazil)

But I doubt anyone would come with any of those 3 sentences, and if they
did the people listening would have to beg for their pardon.

> (same result in sp.)
>
>>> In Brazil you also meet _sequer_ 'not even', which in Portugal is much more
>>> common but with a mandatory _nem_ preceding it.
>
> sp.: siquiera =/= ni siquiera

in most cases one looks at words in close languages and can somewhat
contort one's sprachgefuhl into processing it. I can do it with todavía,
but not with siquiera.

>>>> I'm not sure _jamais_ is even a portuguese word, but where it's used it
>>>> always means 'never', and isn't accompanied by _não_. If there's a _não_
>>>> nearby, it connects to something else in the sentence, _jamais_ is purely
>>>> negative on its own, just like 'never'.
>>>
>>> I thought that was [pt] nunca / [ia] nunquam?
>>>
>>> This https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/jamais
>>> contradicts what you write. https://dicionario.priberam.org/jamais
>>> seems to indicate [pt] jamais can mean Dutch [nl] ‘ooit’ and ‘nooit’,
>>> English ‘ever’ and ‘never’.
>>>
>>>> As to a negative _algum_, there's the stock phrase _nunca, jamais, em tempo
>>>> algum_ 'never, never ever, at nonesoever moment', which you'll hear in
>>>> Brazil.
>>
>> My pocket dico says for 'jamais':
>> "never; (com palavra negativa) ever".
>> So it has to be always in a negative sense, but then I guess in pt., as
>> in sp., a double negative can be used for a simple one:
>
Tue, 26 Mar 2024 21:35:11 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
<no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:
>It would be q good hypothesis, but I don't think that's it. The matter of
>fact is that the word may have been imported at some point,

So you think the Portuguese word jamais is from French? My sources
(whatever they are worth) say it's from native Portuguese words já and
mais.

>but it's never
>caught on. If you ever find it in the wild, it'll most likely be used as an
>expletive, 'never!'.

Um povo unido jamais será vencido.

Did Camões already, or still use it? Bocage? Eça de Queiróz?

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Wed, 27 Mar 2024 07:21:07 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
>So you think the Portuguese word jamais is from French? My sources
>(whatever they are worth) say it's from native Portuguese words já and
>mais.

Via Occitan, even:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jamais#Etymology_3
"From Old Galician-Portuguese jamais, from Old Occitan ja mais, from
Latin iam magis. Cognate with Galician xamais, Spanish jamás, Occitan
jamai, French jamais and Italian giammai."

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/xamais#Galician
"From Old Galician-Portuguese jamais, from Old Occitan ja mais.
Compare Portuguese jamais, Spanish jamás, French jamais and Italian
giammai."

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ja_mais#Old_Occitan

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/giammai#Italian

>
>>but it's never
>>caught on. If you ever find it in the wild, it'll most likely be used as an
>>expletive, 'never!'.
>
>Um povo unido jamais será vencido.
>
>Did Camões already, or still use it? Bocage? Eça de Queiróz?

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com