Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>>> I'm not sure _jamais_ is even a portuguese word, but where it's used it
>>>>> always means 'never', and isn't accompanied by _não_. If there's a _não_
>>>>> nearby, it connects to something else in the sentence, _jamais_ is purely
>>>>> negative on its own, just like 'never'.
>>>>
>>>> I thought that was [pt] nunca / [ia] nunquam?
>>>>
>>>> This https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/jamais
>>>> contradicts what you write. https://dicionario.priberam.org/jamais
>>>> seems to indicate [pt] jamais can mean Dutch [nl] ‘ooit’ and ‘nooit’,
>>>> English ‘ever’ and ‘never’.
>>>>
>>>>> As to a negative _algum_, there's the stock phrase _nunca, jamais, em tempo
>>>>> algum_ 'never, never ever, at nonesoever moment', which you'll hear in
>>>>> Brazil.
>>>
>>> My pocket dico says for 'jamais':
>>> "never; (com palavra negativa) ever".
>>> So it has to be always in a negative sense, but then I guess in pt., as
>>> in sp., a double negative can be used for a simple one:
>>
> Tue, 26 Mar 2024 21:35:11 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
> <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:
>> It would be q good hypothesis, but I don't think that's it. The matter of
>> fact is that the word may have been imported at some point,
>
> So you think the Portuguese word jamais is from French? My sources
> (whatever they are worth) say it's from native Portuguese words já and
> mais.

I wouldn't say it's from french, your occitan hypothesis is more likely,
but it's remained unnatural all these centuries.

>
>> but it's never
>> caught on. If you ever find it in the wild, it'll most likely be used as an
>> expletive, 'never!'.
>
> Um povo unido jamais será vencido.

That's a colombian slogan and when you hear it here the pods are that
'nunca mais' will be substituted.

>
> Did Camões already, or still use it? Bocage? Eça de Queiróz?
>

I'm pretty sure al 3 used it. What I mean is that it's not only literary,
it feels alien. Even though it's unremarkable in shape.

Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Wed, 27 Mar 2024 07:21:07 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
> scribeva:
>> So you think the Portuguese word jamais is from French? My sources
>> (whatever they are worth) say it's from native Portuguese words já and
>> mais.
>
> Via Occitan, even:
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jamais#Etymology_3
> "From Old Galician-Portuguese jamais, from Old Occitan ja mais, from
> Latin iam magis. Cognate with Galician xamais, Spanish jamás, Occitan
> jamai, French jamais and Italian giammai."
>
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/xamais#Galician
> "From Old Galician-Portuguese jamais, from Old Occitan ja mais.
> Compare Portuguese jamais, Spanish jamás, French jamais and Italian
> giammai."
>
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ja_mais#Old_Occitan
>
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/giammai#Italian
>

This is as good a time as any other to mention (again) the word _namais_,
that you can find in Galicia, meaning the same as romanian _numai_. I don't
think it's used in Portugal or that speakers would understand it.

(I hear there's _nomás_ in spanish, I don't know how frequent it is.)

Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I'm not sure _jamais_ is even a portuguese word, but where it's used it
>>>>>> always means 'never', and isn't accompanied by _não_. If there's a _não_
>>>>>> nearby, it connects to something else in the sentence, _jamais_ is purely
>>>>>> negative on its own, just like 'never'.
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought that was [pt] nunca / [ia] nunquam?
>>>>>
>>>>> This https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/jamais
>>>>> contradicts what you write. https://dicionario.priberam.org/jamais
>>>>> seems to indicate [pt] jamais can mean Dutch [nl] ‘ooit’ and ‘nooit’,
>>>>> English ‘ever’ and ‘never’.
>>>>>
>>>>>> As to a negative _algum_, there's the stock phrase _nunca, jamais, em tempo
>>>>>> algum_ 'never, never ever, at nonesoever moment', which you'll hear in
>>>>>> Brazil.
>>>>
>>>> My pocket dico says for 'jamais':
>>>> "never; (com palavra negativa) ever".
>>>> So it has to be always in a negative sense, but then I guess in pt., as
>>>> in sp., a double negative can be used for a simple one:
>>>
>> Tue, 26 Mar 2024 21:35:11 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
>> <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:
>>> It would be q good hypothesis, but I don't think that's it. The matter of
>>> fact is that the word may have been imported at some point,
>>
>> So you think the Portuguese word jamais is from French? My sources
>> (whatever they are worth) say it's from native Portuguese words já and
>> mais.
>
> I wouldn't say it's from french, your occitan hypothesis is more likely,
> but it's remained unnatural all these centuries.
>
>
>>
>>> but it's never
>>> caught on. If you ever find it in the wild, it'll most likely be used as an
>>> expletive, 'never!'.
>>
>> Um povo unido jamais será vencido.
>
> That's a colombian slogan and when you hear it here the pods are that
> 'nunca mais' will be substituted.

(A curious touch of using 'nunca mais' there is the light implication that
the people united were defeated in the past, but won't be again.)

Op 27/03/2024 om 23:06 schreef Antonio Marques:
> Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I'm not sure _jamais_ is even a portuguese word, but where it's used it
>>>>>>> always means 'never', and isn't accompanied by _não_. If there's a _não_
>>>>>>> nearby, it connects to something else in the sentence, _jamais_ is purely
>>>>>>> negative on its own, just like 'never'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought that was [pt] nunca / [ia] nunquam?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/jamais
>>>>>> contradicts what you write. https://dicionario.priberam.org/jamais
>>>>>> seems to indicate [pt] jamais can mean Dutch [nl] ‘ooit’ and ‘nooit’,
>>>>>> English ‘ever’ and ‘never’.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As to a negative _algum_, there's the stock phrase _nunca, jamais, em tempo
>>>>>>> algum_ 'never, never ever, at nonesoever moment', which you'll hear in
>>>>>>> Brazil.
>>>>>
>>>>> My pocket dico says for 'jamais':
>>>>> "never; (com palavra negativa) ever".
>>>>> So it has to be always in a negative sense, but then I guess in pt., as
>>>>> in sp., a double negative can be used for a simple one:
>>>>
>>> Tue, 26 Mar 2024 21:35:11 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
>>> <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:
>>>> It would be q good hypothesis, but I don't think that's it. The matter of
>>>> fact is that the word may have been imported at some point,
>>>
>>> So you think the Portuguese word jamais is from French? My sources
>>> (whatever they are worth) say it's from native Portuguese words já and
>>> mais.
>>
>> I wouldn't say it's from french, your occitan hypothesis is more likely,
>> but it's remained unnatural all these centuries.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> but it's never
>>>> caught on. If you ever find it in the wild, it'll most likely be used as an
>>>> expletive, 'never!'.
>>>
>>> Um povo unido jamais será vencido.
>>
>> That's a colombian slogan and when you hear it here the pods are that
>> 'nunca mais' will be substituted.
>
> (A curious touch of using 'nunca mais' there is the light implication that
> the people united were defeated in the past, but won't be again.)

Indeed. Which makes it different from 'jamais' or whatever you want in
its place.

fr. "ne ... jamais" ==/== "ne ... plus jamais".

sp. "jamás" ==/== "nunca más"

--
guido wugi

On 28/03/24 21:56, wugi wrote:
> Op 27/03/2024 om 23:06 schreef Antonio Marques:
>> Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

>>>> Um povo unido jamais será vencido.
>>>
>>> That's a colombian slogan and when you hear it here the pods are that
>>> 'nunca mais' will be substituted.
>>
>> (A curious touch of using 'nunca mais' there is the light implication
>> that
>> the people united were defeated in the past, but won't be again.)
>
> Indeed. Which makes it different from 'jamais' or whatever you want in
> its place.
>
> fr. "ne ... jamais" ==/== "ne ... plus jamais".
>
> sp. "jamás" ==/== "nunca más"

OK, let's look at a French example.
Je n'y irai jamais.
Je n'y irai plus jamais.

Yes, the second strongly suggests that I've been there before, but the
change in meaning comes only from the extra word "plus". "Jamais" still
means the same in the two cases.

More importantly, "jamais" is a common word in French, while I gather
that it is a lot less common in Portuguese. Its use in Portuguese seems
to be the central point in this discussion.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Wed, 27 Mar 2024 16:29:42 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
<no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:

>Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Um povo unido jamais será vencido.
>
>That's a colombian slogan and when you hear it here the pods are that
>'nunca mais' will be substituted.

That would wreck the metre, and make it unusable as a slogan.

>> Did Camões already, or still use it? Bocage? Eça de Queiróz?
>>
>
>I'm pretty sure al 3 used it. What I mean is that it's not only literary,
>it feels alien. Even though it's unremarkable in shape.

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Op 28/03/2024 om 12:26 schreef Peter Moylan:
> On 28/03/24 21:56, wugi wrote:
>> Op 27/03/2024 om 23:06 schreef Antonio Marques:
>>> Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> Um povo unido jamais será vencido.
>>>>
>>>> That's a colombian slogan and when you hear it here the pods are that
>>>> 'nunca mais' will be substituted.
>>>
>>> (A curious touch of using 'nunca mais' there is the light implication
>>> that
>>> the people united were defeated in the past, but won't be again.)
>>
>> Indeed. Which makes it different from 'jamais' or whatever you want in
>> its place.
>>
>> fr. "ne ... jamais"  ==/==  "ne ... plus jamais".
>>
>> sp. "jamás" ==/== "nunca más"
>
> OK, let's look at a French example.
> Je n'y irai jamais.
> Je n'y irai plus jamais.
>
> Yes, the second strongly suggests that I've been there before, but the
> change in meaning comes only from the extra word "plus". "Jamais" still
> means the same in the two cases.
>
> More importantly, "jamais" is a common word in French, while I gather
> that it is a lot less common in Portuguese. Its use in Portuguese seems
> to be the central point in this discussion.

It is, but the given alternative "nunca mais" seems to have landed off
the intended meaning of '*'jamais.

--
guido wugi

Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Wed, 27 Mar 2024 16:29:42 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
> <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:
>
>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>> Um povo unido jamais será vencido.
>>
>> That's a colombian slogan and when you hear it here the pods are that
>> 'nunca mais' will be substituted.
>
> That would wreck the metre, and make it unusable as a slogan.

Erm, again, when you here it in the wild in Portugal it's with _nunca mais_
and it actually scans better.

wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote:
> Op 28/03/2024 om 12:26 schreef Peter Moylan:
>> On 28/03/24 21:56, wugi wrote:
>>> Op 27/03/2024 om 23:06 schreef Antonio Marques:
>>>> Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Um povo unido jamais será vencido.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's a colombian slogan and when you hear it here the pods are that
>>>>> 'nunca mais' will be substituted.
>>>>
>>>> (A curious touch of using 'nunca mais' there is the light implication
>>>> that
>>>> the people united were defeated in the past, but won't be again.)
>>>
>>> Indeed. Which makes it different from 'jamais' or whatever you want in
>>> its place.
>>>
>>> fr. "ne ... jamais"  ==/==  "ne ... plus jamais".
>>>
>>> sp. "jamás" ==/== "nunca más"
>>
>> OK, let's look at a French example.
>> Je n'y irai jamais.
>> Je n'y irai plus jamais.
>>
>> Yes, the second strongly suggests that I've been there before, but the
>> change in meaning comes only from the extra word "plus". "Jamais" still
>> means the same in the two cases.
>>
>> More importantly, "jamais" is a common word in French, while I gather
>> that it is a lot less common in Portuguese. Its use in Portuguese seems
>> to be the central point in this discussion.
>
> It is, but the given alternative "nunca mais" seems to have landed off
> the intended meaning of '*'jamais.
>

NB _nunca mais_ is the actual idiom for 'never (in the future)', as opposed
to 'never (in the past, the present, or the future)'.
But if taking about something that may have existed before, it can mean
'never (again)'.

Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> Its use in Portuguese seems
> to be the central point in this discussion.

That's my fault, sorry. Given the groups need traffic....

On 27/03/24 17:21, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> Um povo unido jamais será vencido.

Attend enough demonstrations, and you'll hear the almost identical
slogan in English.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Op 28/03/2024 om 23:47 schreef Antonio Marques:
> wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote:
>> Op 28/03/2024 om 12:26 schreef Peter Moylan:
>>> On 28/03/24 21:56, wugi wrote:
>>>> Op 27/03/2024 om 23:06 schreef Antonio Marques:
>>>>> Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> Um povo unido jamais será vencido.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's a colombian slogan and when you hear it here the pods are that
>>>>>> 'nunca mais' will be substituted.
>>>>>
>>>>> (A curious touch of using 'nunca mais' there is the light implication
>>>>> that
>>>>> the people united were defeated in the past, but won't be again.)
>>>>
>>>> Indeed. Which makes it different from 'jamais' or whatever you want in
>>>> its place.
>>>>
>>>> fr. "ne ... jamais"  ==/==  "ne ... plus jamais".
>>>>
>>>> sp. "jamás" ==/== "nunca más"
>>>
>>> OK, let's look at a French example.
>>> Je n'y irai jamais.
>>> Je n'y irai plus jamais.
>>>
>>> Yes, the second strongly suggests that I've been there before, but the
>>> change in meaning comes only from the extra word "plus". "Jamais" still
>>> means the same in the two cases.
>>>
>>> More importantly, "jamais" is a common word in French, while I gather
>>> that it is a lot less common in Portuguese. Its use in Portuguese seems
>>> to be the central point in this discussion.
>>
>> It is, but the given alternative "nunca mais" seems to have landed off
>> the intended meaning of '*'jamais.
>>
>
> NB _nunca mais_ is the actual idiom for 'never (in the future)', as opposed
> to 'never (in the past, the present, or the future)'.

So then, which term represents the latter?

> But if taking about something that may have existed before, it can mean
> 'never (again)'.

It certainly sounds like this, not like "never before, now, and after".

--
guido wugi

Fri, 29 Mar 2024 10:23:17 +1100: Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:

>On 27/03/24 17:21, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> Um povo unido jamais será vencido.
>
>Attend enough demonstrations, and you'll hear the almost identical
>slogan in English.

How? With what metre?

Thu, 28 Mar 2024 22:47:05 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
<no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:

>Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Wed, 27 Mar 2024 16:29:42 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
>> <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:
>>
>>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>> Um povo unido jamais será vencido.
>>>
>>> That's a colombian slogan and when you hear it here the pods are that
>>> 'nunca mais' will be substituted.
>>
>> That would wreck the metre, and make it unusable as a slogan.
>
>Erm, again, when you here it in the wild in Portugal it's with _nunca mais_
>and it actually scans better.

What's the metre then? Does .ca. coincide with .já., and 'nung' gets
an extra syllable?

UmPÔv - uNId(u) - jaMAIS seRÁ venCID(u)
UmPÔv - uNId(u) - nuncaMAIS seRÁ venCID(u)

Doesn't fit. I can't imagine how that might sound. As a slogan, that
is.

On 30/03/24 17:18, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Fri, 29 Mar 2024 10:23:17 +1100: Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> scribeva:
>
>> On 27/03/24 17:21, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>
>>> Um povo unido jamais será vencido.
>>
>> Attend enough demonstrations, and you'll hear the almost identical
>> slogan in English.
>
> How? With what metre?

the PEOP-le u-NIT-ed will NE-ver BE de-FEAT-ed.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Sat, 30 Mar 2024 07:25:21 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>Thu, 28 Mar 2024 22:47:05 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
><no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:
>
>>Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>> Wed, 27 Mar 2024 16:29:42 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
>>> <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:
>>>
>>>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>>> Um povo unido jamais será vencido.
>>>>
>>>> That's a colombian slogan and when you hear it here the pods are that
>>>> 'nunca mais' will be substituted.
>>>
>>> That would wreck the metre, and make it unusable as a slogan.
>>
>>Erm, again, when you here it in the wild in Portugal it's with _nunca mais_
>>and it actually scans better.
>
>What's the metre then? Does .ca. coincide with .já., and 'nung' gets
>an extra syllable?
>
>UmPÔv - uNId(u) - jaMAIS seRÁ venCID(u)
>UmPÔv - uNId(u) - nuncaMAIS seRÁ venCID(u)
>
>Doesn't fit. I can't imagine how that might sound. As a slogan, that
>is.

https://arquivos.rtp.pt/conteudos/um-povo-unido-dentro-e-fora-do-pais/
12:33, 12:51, 13:57, 15:30. Sempre 'jamais'

https://arquivos.rtp.pt/conteudos/manifestacao-dos-trabalhadores-da-tlp-em-lisboa/

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Sat, 30 Mar 2024 08:12:50 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
>>UmPÔv - uNId(u) - jaMAIS seRÁ venCID(u)
>>UmPÔv - uNId(u) - nuncaMAIS seRÁ venCID(u)
>>
>>Doesn't fit. I can't imagine how that might sound. As a slogan, that
>>is.
>
>https://arquivos.rtp.pt/conteudos/um-povo-unido-dentro-e-fora-do-pais/
>12:33, 12:51, 13:57, 15:30. Sempre 'jamais'
>
>https://arquivos.rtp.pt/conteudos/manifestacao-dos-trabalhadores-da-tlp-em-lisboa/

https://arquivos.rtp.pt/conteudos/manifestacao-dos-trabalhadores-da-tlp-em-lisboa/
09:18 Queremos ser humanos, e nunca deixar de o ser.

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Thu, 28 Mar 2024 22:47:06 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
<no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:
>NB [...]

https://arquivos.rtp.pt/conteudos/conferencia-de-imprensa-de-francisco-de-sa-carneiro/
Even very slow Portuguese I still have difficulty understanding. What
does he say?

"Em Portugal não pode ser-se officialmente anti-comunista.
Mas parece dever ser-se officialmente anti-socialdemocrata.
Isto está profundamente errado, e é contrário à isenção ao pluralismo
e ao respeito à democracia ..."

Ser-se? Can "ser" be a reflexive verb? If so, what would it mean?
https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/ser
https://dicionario.priberam.org/ser
"5. Estar, ficar, tornar-se."?

Become?
But then, the "em" at the beginning would be ungrammatical, no?

Really quite puzzled.

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Op 30/03/2024 om 8:48 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
> Thu, 28 Mar 2024 22:47:06 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
> <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:
>> NB [...]
>
> https://arquivos.rtp.pt/conteudos/conferencia-de-imprensa-de-francisco-de-sa-carneiro/
> Even very slow Portuguese I still have difficulty understanding. What
> does he say?
>
> "Em Portugal não pode ser-se officialmente anti-comunista.
> Mas parece dever ser-se officialmente anti-socialdemocrata.
> Isto está profundamente errado, e é contrário à isenção ao pluralismo
> e ao respeito à democracia ..."
>
> Ser-se? Can "ser" be a reflexive verb? If so, what would it mean?
> https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/ser
> https://dicionario.priberam.org/ser
> "5. Estar, ficar, tornar-se."?
>
> Become?
> But then, the "em" at the beginning would be ungrammatical, no?
>
> Really quite puzzled.

It's not a reflexive construction, but an impersonal one.
I suppose it works also in sp.

No se puede ser anti-demócrata acá.
One may not be an anti-democrat here.

No se puede estar tranquilo.
One can't be at ease.

No se puede bailar allá.
Dancing is not allowed/possible there.

Neither ser, estar, bailar... can be reflexive.

--
guido wugi

Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> NB _nunca mais_ is the actual idiom for 'never (in the future)', as opposed
> to 'never (in the past, the present, or the future)'.
> But if taking about something that may have existed before, it can mean
> 'never (again)'.
>

_Nunca mais_ is often also used for emphasis to indicate something
difficult to achieve, e.g. _nunca mais lá chegava_ will mean 'I'd never
get there on my own' or 'it took me far too long to get there', depending
on context.

Op 30/03/2024 om 8:39 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
> Sat, 30 Mar 2024 08:12:50 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
> scribeva:
>>> UmPÔv - uNId(u) - jaMAIS seRÁ venCID(u)
>>> UmPÔv - uNId(u) - nuncaMAIS seRÁ venCID(u)
>>>
>>> Doesn't fit. I can't imagine how that might sound. As a slogan, that
>>> is.
>>
>> https://arquivos.rtp.pt/conteudos/um-povo-unido-dentro-e-fora-do-pais/
>> 12:33, 12:51, 13:57, 15:30. Sempre 'jamais'
>>
>> https://arquivos.rtp.pt/conteudos/manifestacao-dos-trabalhadores-da-tlp-em-lisboa/
>
> https://arquivos.rtp.pt/conteudos/manifestacao-dos-trabalhadores-da-tlp-em-lisboa/
> 09:18 Queremos ser humanos, e nunca deixar de o ser.
>

Aha, 'nunca' [alone] of course. That's what my dico gives also for
'never', not 'nunca mais'.

--
guido wugi

wugi wrote:

> Op 30/03/2024 om 8:48 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>> Thu, 28 Mar 2024 22:47:06 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
>> <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:
>>> NB [...]
>>
>> https://arquivos.rtp.pt/conteudos/conferencia-de-imprensa-de-francisco-de-sa-carneiro/
>> Even very slow Portuguese I still have difficulty understanding. What
>> does he say?
>>
>> "Em Portugal não pode ser-se officialmente anti-comunista.
>> Mas parece dever ser-se officialmente anti-socialdemocrata.
>> Isto está profundamente errado, e é contrário à isenção ao pluralismo
>> e ao respeito à democracia ..."
>>
>> Ser-se? Can "ser" be a reflexive verb? If so, what would it mean?
>> https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/ser
>> https://dicionario.priberam.org/ser
>> "5. Estar, ficar, tornar-se."?
>>
>> Become?
>> But then, the "em" at the beginning would be ungrammatical, no?
>>
>> Really quite puzzled.

> It's not a reflexive construction, but an impersonal one.
> I suppose it works also in sp.

> No se puede ser anti-demócrata acá.
> One may not be an anti-democrat here.

> No se puede estar tranquilo.
> One can't be at ease.

Apparently even with "puede serse".

Octavio Paz demostró que en estos barrios sí puede serse conciso y preciso.

https://books.google.com/books?id=5xpz_L3XKFgC&pg=PT200

I think that's pretty rare, though.

> No se puede bailar allá.
> Dancing is not allowed/possible there.

> Neither ser, estar, bailar... can be reflexive.

(That needs a "nor". If you don't want to use "nor" before the
ellipsis, I'd advise finding another way to say it.)

It might depend on what you mean by "reflexive". If you mean
something that would be translated as "dance itself", then
that's probably true.

I happen to know of what looks like a reflexive "ser" in
poetry:

Cuando el Ser que se es hizo la nada
y reposó, que bien lo merecía,
ya tuvo el día noche, y compañía
tuvo el hombre en la ausencia de la amada.

Antonio Machado, "Al gran cero".

When Being that is itself made nothingness
and took a well-deserved rest,
day finally had its night, and man
had company in the absence of his beloved.

Armand F. Baker trans.

https://armandfbaker.github.io/translations/apocryphal/CLXVII_abel_martin.pdf

--
Jerry Friedman

Sat, 30 Mar 2024 16:27:33 +0100: wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> scribeva:

>Op 30/03/2024 om 8:39 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>> Sat, 30 Mar 2024 08:12:50 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
>> scribeva:
>>>> UmPÔv - uNId(u) - jaMAIS seRÁ venCID(u)
>>>> UmPÔv - uNId(u) - nuncaMAIS seRÁ venCID(u)
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't fit. I can't imagine how that might sound. As a slogan, that
>>>> is.
>>>
>>> https://arquivos.rtp.pt/conteudos/um-povo-unido-dentro-e-fora-do-pais/
>>> 12:33, 12:51, 13:57, 15:30. Sempre 'jamais'
>>>
>>> https://arquivos.rtp.pt/conteudos/manifestacao-dos-trabalhadores-da-tlp-em-lisboa/
>>
>> https://arquivos.rtp.pt/conteudos/manifestacao-dos-trabalhadores-da-tlp-em-lisboa/
>> 09:18 Queremos ser humanos, e nunca deixar de o ser.
>>
>
>Aha, 'nunca' [alone] of course. That's what my dico gives also for
>'never', not 'nunca mais'.

But for the slogan jaMAIS has the right stress, and NUNca hasn't.
OK, now in Portuguese culture, contradictory stresses in music and
language are quite common, so that need not be a problem. What's more
convincing is that all the historic sources clearly have jamais and
not nunca.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Sat, 30 Mar 2024 16:21:38 +0100: wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> scribeva:

>Op 30/03/2024 om 8:48 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>> Thu, 28 Mar 2024 22:47:06 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
>> <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:
>>> NB [...]
>>
>> https://arquivos.rtp.pt/conteudos/conferencia-de-imprensa-de-francisco-de-sa-carneiro/
>> Even very slow Portuguese I still have difficulty understanding. What
>> does he say?
>>
>> "Em Portugal não pode ser-se officialmente anti-comunista.
>> Mas parece dever ser-se officialmente anti-socialdemocrata.
>> Isto está profundamente errado, e é contrário à isenção ao pluralismo
>> e ao respeito à democracia ..."
>>
>> Ser-se? Can "ser" be a reflexive verb? If so, what would it mean?
>> https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/ser
>> https://dicionario.priberam.org/ser
>> "5. Estar, ficar, tornar-se."?
>>
>> Become?
>> But then, the "em" at the beginning would be ungrammatical, no?
>>
>> Really quite puzzled.
>
>It's not a reflexive construction, but an impersonal one.
>I suppose it works also in sp.

That must be it! Why didn't I think of that?

The construction is less common in Portuguese, but also possible.
Without the hyphen then, I suppose.

"Em Portugal não pode ser se officialmente anti-comunista.
Mas parece dever ser se officialmente anti-socialdemocrata.

In Portugal one cannot be officially anti-communist.
But it seems one has to be officially anti social democrat.

"Se" is deliberately vague, because in the then context, everybody
knew who he meant: Francisco da Costa Gomes, presidente da República,
and José Pinheiro de Azevedo, primeiro-ministro.

>No se puede ser anti-demócrata acá.
>One may not be an anti-democrat here.
>
>No se puede estar tranquilo.
>One can't be at ease.
>
>No se puede bailar allá.
>Dancing is not allowed/possible there.
>
>Neither ser, estar, bailar... can be reflexive.

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Sat, 30 Mar 2024 16:09:23 +0000: jerry.friedman99@gmail.com
(jerryfriedman) scribeva:

>wugi wrote:
>
>> Op 30/03/2024 om 8:48 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>> Thu, 28 Mar 2024 22:47:06 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
>>> <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:
>>>> NB [...]
>>>
>>> https://arquivos.rtp.pt/conteudos/conferencia-de-imprensa-de-francisco-de-sa-carneiro/
>>> Even very slow Portuguese I still have difficulty understanding. What
>>> does he say?
>>>
>>> "Em Portugal não pode ser-se officialmente anti-comunista.
>>> Mas parece dever ser-se officialmente anti-socialdemocrata.
>>> Isto está profundamente errado, e é contrário à isenção ao pluralismo
>>> e ao respeito à democracia ..."
>>>
>>> Ser-se? Can "ser" be a reflexive verb? If so, what would it mean?
>>> https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/ser
>>> https://dicionario.priberam.org/ser
>>> "5. Estar, ficar, tornar-se."?
>>>
>>> Become?
>>> But then, the "em" at the beginning would be ungrammatical, no?
>>>
>>> Really quite puzzled.
>
>> It's not a reflexive construction, but an impersonal one.
>> I suppose it works also in sp.
>
>> No se puede ser anti-demócrata acá.
>> One may not be an anti-democrat here.
>
>> No se puede estar tranquilo.
>> One can't be at ease.
>
>Apparently even with "puede serse".

European Portuguese, other that Brazilian Portuguese and Spanish,
tends to place personal pronouns (in the dative and accusative,
anyway, but here it is nominative) after the conjugated verb, not
before, unless there is a "magnet word".

>Octavio Paz demostró que en estos barrios sí puede serse conciso y preciso.
>
>https://books.google.com/books?id=5xpz_L3XKFgC&pg=PT200
>
>I think that's pretty rare, though.

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com