The front derailleur came in yesterday and was a perfect fit. hile mounting the levers I found the like new braze-on front derailleur at the bottom of that box. There is no rear derailleur hanger so I ordered one. You would have thought that the advertisement for the frameset would have included that piece of information, I assembled the levers and the wires for them. The seat clamp works just fine and it only took two days to get it. At this point the only things left are the under BB cable guide, the rear derailleur mount and the handlebar tape.

It is crazy for people to sight unseen make offers for the bikes I have up for sale, me to accept them and to never hear from them again. Some idiot wanted to buy my Time 1" fork and he traded a dozen emails with me and then was never heard from again.

On Saturday, February 10, 2024 at 7:37:20 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> The front derailleur came in yesterday and was a perfect fit. hile mounting the levers I found the like new braze-on front derailleur at the bottom of that box. There is no rear derailleur hanger so I ordered one. You would have thought that the advertisement for the frameset would have included that piece of information, I assembled the levers and the wires for them. The seat clamp works just fine and it only took two days to get it. At this point the only things left are the under BB cable guide, the rear derailleur mount and the handlebar tape.
>
> It is crazy for people to sight unseen make offers for the bikes I have up for sale, me to accept them and to never hear from them again. Some idiot wanted to buy my Time 1" fork and he traded a dozen emails with me and then was never heard from again.

A couple more small parts are due in today: the plastic under the bottom bracket cable guide and some Look Keo pedals. I have some light pedals but the Allez frame may not be to my liking so I don't want to put any wear on expensive new pedals so I will use some heavier cheap pedals on. Besides, it is easier to get in and out of the heavier pedals.

Wednesday I expect the rear derailleur mount in and I will mount that and the rear derailleur, adjust everything, put on the bar tape and ber take it for a ride. I stopped by the hardware store to get some 4 mm water bottle mounting screws and the low grade hardware store has stopped carrying 4 mm screws. So I will have to go to the local Ace Hardware in Castro Valley

The rear derailleur mount looks odd in the photos but the dropout is supposed to work on 35 Specialized bikes so we'll see. It is supposed to work on the entire Allez line. but it does look unlikely to work. But I do have a local Specialized dealer if all else fails. It is always these insignificant parts that cause the problems. There is also what appears to be an alignment screw on the rear dropout which was stripped out, So I may have to thread that to the next larger size But not if the rear derailleur hanger sits flush as it is supposed to. The Allez is about a lb lighter than the Basso So they ought to ride pretty similar with the same fit.

On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 7:19:43 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, February 10, 2024 at 7:37:20 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > The front derailleur came in yesterday and was a perfect fit. hile mounting the levers I found the like new braze-on front derailleur at the bottom of that box. There is no rear derailleur hanger so I ordered one. You would have thought that the advertisement for the frameset would have included that piece of information, I assembled the levers and the wires for them. The seat clamp works just fine and it only took two days to get it. At this point the only things left are the under BB cable guide, the rear derailleur mount and the handlebar tape.
> >
> > It is crazy for people to sight unseen make offers for the bikes I have up for sale, me to accept them and to never hear from them again. Some idiot wanted to buy my Time 1" fork and he traded a dozen emails with me and then was never heard from again.
> A couple more small parts are due in today: the plastic under the bottom bracket cable guide and some Look Keo pedals. I have some light pedals but the Allez frame may not be to my liking so I don't want to put any wear on expensive new pedals so I will use some heavier cheap pedals on. Besides, it is easier to get in and out of the heavier pedals.
>
> Wednesday I expect the rear derailleur mount in and I will mount that and the rear derailleur, adjust everything, put on the bar tape and ber take it for a ride. I stopped by the hardware store to get some 4 mm water bottle mounting screws and the low grade hardware store has stopped carrying 4 mm screws. So I will have to go to the local Ace Hardware in Castro Valley

Most water bottle screws are M5. I would check that.

Lou

On 2/12/2024 3:54 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 7:19:43 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Saturday, February 10, 2024 at 7:37:20 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> The front derailleur came in yesterday and was a perfect fit. hile mounting the levers I found the like new braze-on front derailleur at the bottom of that box. There is no rear derailleur hanger so I ordered one. You would have thought that the advertisement for the frameset would have included that piece of information, I assembled the levers and the wires for them. The seat clamp works just fine and it only took two days to get it. At this point the only things left are the under BB cable guide, the rear derailleur mount and the handlebar tape.
>>>
>>> It is crazy for people to sight unseen make offers for the bikes I have up for sale, me to accept them and to never hear from them again. Some idiot wanted to buy my Time 1" fork and he traded a dozen emails with me and then was never heard from again.
>> A couple more small parts are due in today: the plastic under the bottom bracket cable guide and some Look Keo pedals. I have some light pedals but the Allez frame may not be to my liking so I don't want to put any wear on expensive new pedals so I will use some heavier cheap pedals on. Besides, it is easier to get in and out of the heavier pedals.
>>
>> Wednesday I expect the rear derailleur mount in and I will mount that and the rear derailleur, adjust everything, put on the bar tape and ber take it for a ride. I stopped by the hardware store to get some 4 mm water bottle mounting screws and the low grade hardware store has stopped carrying 4 mm screws. So I will have to go to the local Ace Hardware in Castro Valley
>
> Most water bottle screws are M5. I would check that.
>
> Lou
>

He probably means it has a 4mm hex drive. Still, it's going to be fun
watching him post a rant about how he bought M4 screws which won't fit
so somehow his bike was built with different sized inserts than any
other bike on the planet.

--
Add xx to reply

On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 12:54:26 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 7:19:43 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 10, 2024 at 7:37:20 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > The front derailleur came in yesterday and was a perfect fit. hile mounting the levers I found the like new braze-on front derailleur at the bottom of that box. There is no rear derailleur hanger so I ordered one. You would have thought that the advertisement for the frameset would have included that piece of information, I assembled the levers and the wires for them.. The seat clamp works just fine and it only took two days to get it. At this point the only things left are the under BB cable guide, the rear derailleur mount and the handlebar tape.
> > >
> > > It is crazy for people to sight unseen make offers for the bikes I have up for sale, me to accept them and to never hear from them again. Some idiot wanted to buy my Time 1" fork and he traded a dozen emails with me and then was never heard from again.
> > A couple more small parts are due in today: the plastic under the bottom bracket cable guide and some Look Keo pedals. I have some light pedals but the Allez frame may not be to my liking so I don't want to put any wear on expensive new pedals so I will use some heavier cheap pedals on. Besides, it is easier to get in and out of the heavier pedals.
> >
> > Wednesday I expect the rear derailleur mount in and I will mount that and the rear derailleur, adjust everything, put on the bar tape and ber take it for a ride. I stopped by the hardware store to get some 4 mm water bottle mounting screws and the low grade hardware store has stopped carrying 4 mm screws. So I will have to go to the local Ace Hardware in Castro Valley
> Most water bottle screws are M5. I would check that.
>
> Lou

You are correct but indeed these are 4 mm.

On Mon Feb 12 16:19:21 2024 Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 2/12/2024 3:54 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 7:19:43?PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Saturday, February 10, 2024 at 7:37:20?AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> The front derailleur came in yesterday and was a perfect fit. hile mounting the levers I found the like new braze-on front derailleur at the bottom of that box. There is no rear derailleur hanger so I ordered one. You would have thought that the advertisement for the frameset would have included that piece of information, I assembled the levers and the wires for them. The seat clamp works just fine and it only took two days to get it. At this point the only things left are the under BB cable guide, the rear derailleur mount and the handlebar tape.
> >>>
> >>> It is crazy for people to sight unseen make offers for the bikes I have up for sale, me to accept them and to never hear from them again. Some idiot wanted to buy my Time 1" fork and he traded a dozen emails with me and then was never heard from again.
> >> A couple more small parts are due in today: the plastic under the bottom bracket cable guide and some Look Keo pedals. I have some light pedals but the Allez frame may not be to my liking so I don't want to put any wear on expensive new pedals so I will use some heavier cheap pedals on. Besides, it is easier to get in and out of the heavier pedals.
> >>
> >> Wednesday I expect the rear derailleur mount in and I will mount that and the rear derailleur, adjust everything, put on the bar tape and ber take it for a ride. I stopped by the hardware store to get some 4 mm water bottle mounting screws and the low grade hardware store has stopped carrying 4 mm screws. So I will have to go to the local Ace Hardware in Castro Valley
> >
> > Most water bottle screws are M5. I would check that.
> >
> > Lou
> >
>
> He probably means it has a 4mm hex drive. Still, it's going to be fun
> watching him post a rant about how he bought M4 screws which won't fit
> so somehow his bike was built with different sized inserts than any
> other bike on the planet.
>
> --
> Add xx to reply
>

Well, I will say that as usual you are at least good for a laugh.

On 2/12/2024 12:54 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 7:19:43 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Saturday, February 10, 2024 at 7:37:20 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> The front derailleur came in yesterday and was a perfect fit. hile mounting the levers I found the like new braze-on front derailleur at the bottom of that box. There is no rear derailleur hanger so I ordered one. You would have thought that the advertisement for the frameset would have included that piece of information, I assembled the levers and the wires for them. The seat clamp works just fine and it only took two days to get it. At this point the only things left are the under BB cable guide, the rear derailleur mount and the handlebar tape.
>>>
>>> It is crazy for people to sight unseen make offers for the bikes I have up for sale, me to accept them and to never hear from them again. Some idiot wanted to buy my Time 1" fork and he traded a dozen emails with me and then was never heard from again.
>> A couple more small parts are due in today: the plastic under the bottom bracket cable guide and some Look Keo pedals. I have some light pedals but the Allez frame may not be to my liking so I don't want to put any wear on expensive new pedals so I will use some heavier cheap pedals on. Besides, it is easier to get in and out of the heavier pedals.
>>
>> Wednesday I expect the rear derailleur mount in and I will mount that and the rear derailleur, adjust everything, put on the bar tape and ber take it for a ride. I stopped by the hardware store to get some 4 mm water bottle mounting screws and the low grade hardware store has stopped carrying 4 mm screws. So I will have to go to the local Ace Hardware in Castro Valley
>
> Most water bottle screws are M5. I would check that.

I've never seen an M4 water bottle cage bolt, they are all M5. At least
on Earth.

I like these bolts: <https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806038358425.html>.

Allen head.
Stainless.
Button head with washer collar.

He should order M5-12.

These will never be found at a hardware store in the U.S.. You can find
button head M5-12 from McMaster-Carr
<https://www.mcmaster.com/94500A231/> or Olander
<https://www.olander.com/items/.5C12BHCS> but not with the washer collar.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 3/4/2024 9:23 PM, sms wrote:
> On 2/12/2024 12:54 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 7:19:43 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Saturday, February 10, 2024 at 7:37:20 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> The front derailleur came in yesterday and was a perfect fit. hile
>>>> mounting the levers I found the like new braze-on front derailleur
>>>> at the bottom of that box. There is no rear derailleur hanger so I
>>>> ordered one. You would have thought that the advertisement for the
>>>> frameset would have included that piece of information, I assembled
>>>> the levers and the wires for them. The seat clamp works just fine
>>>> and it only took two days to get it. At this point the only things
>>>> left are the under BB cable guide, the rear derailleur mount and the
>>>> handlebar tape.
>>>>
>>>> It is crazy for people to sight unseen make offers for the bikes I
>>>> have up for sale, me to accept them and to never hear from them
>>>> again. Some idiot wanted to buy my Time 1" fork and he traded a
>>>> dozen emails with me and then was never heard from again.
>>> A couple more small parts are due in today: the plastic under the
>>> bottom bracket cable guide and some Look Keo pedals. I have some
>>> light pedals but the Allez frame may not be to my liking so I don't
>>> want to put any wear on expensive new pedals so I will use some
>>> heavier cheap pedals on. Besides, it is easier to get in and out of
>>> the heavier pedals.
>>>
>>> Wednesday I expect the rear derailleur mount in and I will mount that
>>> and the rear derailleur, adjust everything, put on the bar tape and
>>> ber take it for a ride. I stopped by the hardware store to get some 4
>>> mm water bottle mounting screws and the low grade hardware store has
>>> stopped carrying 4 mm screws. So I will have to go to the local Ace
>>> Hardware in Castro Valley
>>
>> Most water bottle screws are M5. I would check that.
>
> I've never seen an M4 water bottle cage bolt, they are all M5. At least
> on Earth.
>
> I like these bolts: <https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806038358425.html>.
>
> Allen head.
> Stainless.
> Button head with washer collar.
>
> He should order M5-12.
>
> These will never be found at a hardware store in the U.S.. You can find
> button head M5-12 from McMaster-Carr
> <https://www.mcmaster.com/94500A231/> or Olander
> <https://www.olander.com/items/.5C12BHCS> but not with the washer collar.
>

I mentioned he was probably confusing a 4mm hex drive with an M5. The
vast majority of M5 hex cap screws have a 4mm drive. A perusal of the
list generated by the parametric search below shows very few - if any -
M5 hex cap screws other than a 4mm drive:

https://www.mcmaster.com/products/screws/system-of-measurement~metric/thread-size~m5/fastener-head-type~socket/material~stainless-steel-2/socket-head-profile~standard/drive-style~hex/length~10-mm/

IOW, if he went to a hardware store looking for a stainless steel hex
cap screw with 4mm drive, it's more than likely it would have been an M5.

Similarly, if you change the search parameters to M6 or M4, you'll see
the drive size follows accordingly - most M6 are 5mm drive, most M4 are
3 mm drive.

That said, if he wanted a rounded style head, he would have been looking
for a 2.5 or 3 mm drive M5. I've had a number of those over the years.

I suppose we _could_ be wrong and both the Basso Gap and Specialized
Allez did offer M4 bottle cage mounts -

(He wrote "the mounting screws on the Basso were also 4 mm"
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/gmVyAa3I9GU/m/73DcK-B0AAAJ)

- But hey, we're talking about a guy here who got frustrated because he
couldn't find metric torx drivers. So what do we think is more likely;
that tommy somehow managed to get not one but _two_ completely unrelated
bikes with M4 water bottle mounts? or that tommy as usual doesn't know
what he's talking about?

--
Add xx to reply

On Mon Mar 4 18:23:13 2024 sms wrote:
> On 2/12/2024 12:54 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 7:19:43?PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Saturday, February 10, 2024 at 7:37:20?AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> The front derailleur came in yesterday and was a perfect fit. hile mounting the levers I found the like new braze-on front derailleur at the bottom of that box. There is no rear derailleur hanger so I ordered one. You would have thought that the advertisement for the frameset would have included that piece of information, I assembled the levers and the wires for them. The seat clamp works just fine and it only took two days to get it. At this point the only things left are the under BB cable guide, the rear derailleur mount and the handlebar tape.
> >>>
> >>> It is crazy for people to sight unseen make offers for the bikes I have up for sale, me to accept them and to never hear from them again. Some idiot wanted to buy my Time 1" fork and he traded a dozen emails with me and then was never heard from again.
> >> A couple more small parts are due in today: the plastic under the bottom bracket cable guide and some Look Keo pedals. I have some light pedals but the Allez frame may not be to my liking so I don't want to put any wear on expensive new pedals so I will use some heavier cheap pedals on. Besides, it is easier to get in and out of the heavier pedals.
> >>
> >> Wednesday I expect the rear derailleur mount in and I will mount that and the rear derailleur, adjust everything, put on the bar tape and ber take it for a ride. I stopped by the hardware store to get some 4 mm water bottle mounting screws and the low grade hardware store has stopped carrying 4 mm screws. So I will have to go to the local Ace Hardware in Castro Valley
> >
> > Most water bottle screws are M5. I would check that.
>
> I've never seen an M4 water bottle cage bolt, they are all M5. At least
> on Earth.
>
> I like these bolts: <https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806038358425.html>.
>
> Allen head.
> Stainless.
> Button head with washer collar.
>
> He should order M5-12.
>
> These will never be found at a hardware store in the U.S.. You can find
> button head M5-12 from McMaster-Carr
> <https://www.mcmaster.com/94500A231/> or Olander
> <https://www.olander.com/items/.5C12BHCS> but not with the washer collar.
>
> --
> ?If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
> really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
> indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
> they do about the subject.??Tin Foil Awards
>

Why are you continuously making your tin foil hat claims when 4 mm water bottle mounts are fairly common and especially on carbon fiber bikes where they are always trying to save weight. When I BUY a 4 mm screw at ACE hardware and it fits, why are you telling me it doesn't?

Since you said that you designed frames we can now all know that you're a liar.

On Tue Mar 5 07:28:44 2024 Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 3/4/2024 9:23 PM, sms wrote:
> > On 2/12/2024 12:54 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 7:19:43?PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, February 10, 2024 at 7:37:20?AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> The front derailleur came in yesterday and was a perfect fit. hile
> >>>> mounting the levers I found the like new braze-on front derailleur
> >>>> at the bottom of that box. There is no rear derailleur hanger so I
> >>>> ordered one. You would have thought that the advertisement for the
> >>>> frameset would have included that piece of information, I assembled
> >>>> the levers and the wires for them. The seat clamp works just fine
> >>>> and it only took two days to get it. At this point the only things
> >>>> left are the under BB cable guide, the rear derailleur mount and the
> >>>> handlebar tape.
> >>>>
> >>>> It is crazy for people to sight unseen make offers for the bikes I
> >>>> have up for sale, me to accept them and to never hear from them
> >>>> again. Some idiot wanted to buy my Time 1" fork and he traded a
> >>>> dozen emails with me and then was never heard from again.
> >>> A couple more small parts are due in today: the plastic under the
> >>> bottom bracket cable guide and some Look Keo pedals. I have some
> >>> light pedals but the Allez frame may not be to my liking so I don't
> >>> want to put any wear on expensive new pedals so I will use some
> >>> heavier cheap pedals on. Besides, it is easier to get in and out of
> >>> the heavier pedals.
> >>>
> >>> Wednesday I expect the rear derailleur mount in and I will mount that
> >>> and the rear derailleur, adjust everything, put on the bar tape and
> >>> ber take it for a ride. I stopped by the hardware store to get some 4
> >>> mm water bottle mounting screws and the low grade hardware store has
> >>> stopped carrying 4 mm screws. So I will have to go to the local Ace
> >>> Hardware in Castro Valley
> >>
> >> Most water bottle screws are M5. I would check that.
> >
> > I've never seen an M4 water bottle cage bolt, they are all M5. At least
> > on Earth.
> >
> > I like these bolts: <https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806038358425.html>.
> >
> > Allen head.
> > Stainless.
> > Button head with washer collar.
> >
> > He should order M5-12.
> >
> > These will never be found at a hardware store in the U.S.. You can find
> > button head M5-12 from McMaster-Carr
> > <https://www.mcmaster.com/94500A231/> or Olander
> > <https://www.olander.com/items/.5C12BHCS> but not with the washer collar.
> >
>
> I mentioned he was probably confusing a 4mm hex drive with an M5. The
> vast majority of M5 hex cap screws have a 4mm drive. A perusal of the
> list generated by the parametric search below shows very few - if any -
> M5 hex cap screws other than a 4mm drive:
>
> https://www.mcmaster.com/products/screws/system-of-measurement~metric/thread-size~m5/fastener-head-type~socket/material~stainless-steel-2/socket-head-profile~standard/drive-style~hex/length~10-mm/
>
> IOW, if he went to a hardware store looking for a stainless steel hex
> cap screw with 4mm drive, it's more than likely it would have been an M5.
>
> Similarly, if you change the search parameters to M6 or M4, you'll see
> the drive size follows accordingly - most M6 are 5mm drive, most M4 are
> 3 mm drive.
>
> That said, if he wanted a rounded style head, he would have been looking
> for a 2.5 or 3 mm drive M5. I've had a number of those over the years.
>
> I suppose we _could_ be wrong and both the Basso Gap and Specialized
> Allez did offer M4 bottle cage mounts -
>
> (He wrote "the mounting screws on the Basso were also 4 mm"
> https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/gmVyAa3I9GU/m/73DcK-B0AAAJ)
>
> - But hey, we're talking about a guy here who got frustrated because he
> couldn't find metric torx drivers. So what do we think is more likely;
> that tommy somehow managed to get not one but _two_ completely unrelated
> bikes with M4 water bottle mounts? or that tommy as usual doesn't know
> what he's talking about?
>
> --
> Add xx to reply
>

You are permitted to believe any fable you like.

On 3/5/2024 4:28 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:

<snip>

> I mentioned he was probably confusing a 4mm hex drive with an M5. The
> vast majority of M5 hex cap screws have a 4mm drive.

True, though there are M5 bolts with Philips heads and with hex heads.
Also with serrated flange heads which are good for vibration resistance.

I use some medium or low strength Loctite on the bolts on the bicycles
that go into threaded holes.

<snip>

> - But hey, we're talking about a guy here who got frustrated because he
> couldn't find metric torx drivers. So what do we think is more likely;
> that tommy somehow managed to get not one but _two_ completely unrelated
> bikes with M4 water bottle mounts?  or that tommy as usual doesn't know
> what he's talking about?

It's important to be precise when going into a hardware store. If he
asked for a 4mm bolt he would be given an M4, not an M5. I was just in
an Ace Hardware store in San Jose last Friday, after not having been in
that store for maybe six months. They've locked up nearly everything
that is either small or that is of high-value. Yes, people go in and
steal nuts and bolts!

I have a tool bag that is filled with metric nuts, bolts, and washers of
various sizes that I ordered from AliExpress. I don't want to be running
out to the hardware store every time I need some fastener, the time and
expense is not worth it. Also, there are metric fastener types that you
can't get at a hardware store in the U.S.. We have an amazing fastener
distributor locally that has a lot of metric stuff but they are not
really set up for small quantities. They now have a $5 per SKU
requirement. We had some electronics stores with a lot of metric
hardware but they are mostly out of business. We also had a Japanese
dollar store, Daiso, that used to carry a lot of metric fasteners
<https://www.mtbr.com/attachments/daiso-jpg.515494/> but they dropped
those products.

IMVAIO, these are the ideal water bottle cage bolts:
<https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/223304105572/?HissuCode=ZFB4X12>.

On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 10:33:07 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>IMVAIO, these are the ideal water bottle cage bolts:
><https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/223304105572/?HissuCode=ZFB4X12>.

That's an M4 bolts. (Thread Nominal - Metric).
If you want the M5 thread, it should be ZFB5X12 as in:
<https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/223304105572/?HissuCode=ZFB5X12>
Note that their price is $4.75 each. Maybe a lesser non-marine grade
stainless (304 A2 instead of 316 A4) would be cheaper:
<https://www.goebelfasteners.com/types-of-stainless-steel-a2-vs-a4-or-304-vs-316/>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 3/5/2024 7:28 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>
> IOW, if he went to a hardware store looking for a stainless steel hex
> cap screw with 4mm drive, it's more than likely it would have been an M5.
>
....
>
> That said, if he wanted a rounded style head, he would have been looking
> for a 2.5 or 3 mm drive M5. I've had a number of those over the years.

I've had a couple over the years. I no longer use them after one became
somewhat corroded and stuck, and the 3mm drive stripped as I tried to
remove it. IIRC I ended up cutting a slot in the screw's head and
removed it with a flat bladed screwdriver.

My workshop contains a tiny storage cabinet, about 1 foot tall and one
foot wide, with something like 25 small plastic drawers. One of the
drawers is full of 5mm screws, another is full of 6mm screws, most of
which were saved from other uses. I haven't had to look for those in a
hardware store for many, many years.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/5/2024 1:33 PM, sms wrote:
> On 3/5/2024 4:28 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I mentioned he was probably confusing a 4mm hex drive with an M5. The
>> vast majority of M5 hex cap screws have a 4mm drive.
>
> True, though there are M5 bolts with Philips heads and with hex heads.

Yes, I was referring specifically to hex socket cap screws

> Also with serrated flange heads which are good for vibration resistance.
>
> I use some medium or low strength Loctite on the bolts on the bicycles
> that go into threaded holes.
>
> <snip>
>
>> - But hey, we're talking about a guy here who got frustrated because
>> he couldn't find metric torx drivers. So what do we think is more
>> likely; that tommy somehow managed to get not one but _two_ completely
>> unrelated bikes with M4 water bottle mounts?  or that tommy as usual
>> doesn't know what he's talking about?
>
> It's important to be precise when going into a hardware store. If he
> asked for a 4mm bolt he would be given an M4, not an M5.

You're suggesting tommy would have asked for help......right.

> I was just in
> an Ace Hardware store in San Jose last Friday, after not having been in
> that store for maybe six months. They've locked up nearly everything
> that is either small or that is of high-value. Yes, people go in and
> steal nuts and bolts!

The hardware aisle in my local Home Depot looks like a rummage sale.

>
> I have a tool bag that is filled with metric nuts, bolts, and washers of
> various sizes that I ordered from AliExpress. I don't want to be running
> out to the hardware store every time I need some fastener, the time and
> expense is not worth it. Also, there are metric fastener types that you
> can't get at a hardware store in the U.S..

I have bins with a wide variety of hardware from 40+ years of bikes,
cars, various other accessories and equipment. The bike stuff is
segregated, I haven't had to go to a hardware store for bike related
nuts or bolts in....I can't even remember.

On 3/5/2024 12:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 10:33:07 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> IMVAIO, these are the ideal water bottle cage bolts:
>> <https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/223304105572/?HissuCode=ZFB4X12>.
>
> That's an M4 bolts. (Thread Nominal - Metric).
> If you want the M5 thread, it should be ZFB5X12 as in:
> <https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/223304105572/?HissuCode=ZFB5X12>

Oh damn, you're right, my mistake.

On Tue Mar 5 12:17:09 2024 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 10:33:07 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >IMVAIO, these are the ideal water bottle cage bolts:
> ><https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/223304105572/?HissuCode=ZFB4X12>.
>
> That's an M4 bolts. (Thread Nominal - Metric).
> If you want the M5 thread, it should be ZFB5X12 as in:
> <https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/223304105572/?HissuCode=ZFB5X12>
> Note that their price is $4.75 each. Maybe a lesser non-marine grade
> stainless (304 A2 instead of 316 A4) would be cheaper:
> <https://www.goebelfasteners.com/types-of-stainless-steel-a2-vs-a4-or-304-vs-316/>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

As usual you're blowing smoke since the connectors I buy are not $4.75 each but in packages of 5. "Marine Grade" means a stainless that doesn't show discoloration when exposed to water.

On Tue Mar 5 15:39:22 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/5/2024 7:28 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
> >
> > IOW, if he went to a hardware store looking for a stainless steel hex
> > cap screw with 4mm drive, it's more than likely it would have been an M5.
> >
> ...
> >
> > That said, if he wanted a rounded style head, he would have been looking
> > for a 2.5 or 3 mm drive M5. I've had a number of those over the years.
>
> I've had a couple over the years. I no longer use them after one became
> somewhat corroded and stuck, and the 3mm drive stripped as I tried to
> remove it. IIRC I ended up cutting a slot in the screw's head and
> removed it with a flat bladed screwdriver.
>
> My workshop contains a tiny storage cabinet, about 1 foot tall and one
> foot wide, with something like 25 small plastic drawers. One of the
> drawers is full of 5mm screws, another is full of 6mm screws, most of
> which were saved from other uses. I haven't had to look for those in a
> hardware store for many, many years.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
>

I have a boat hardware tool box full of stainless nuts and bolts. But they are American sizes. I can't remember who I sold my boat last two boats to.

On Tue Mar 5 16:02:11 2024 Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 3/5/2024 1:33 PM, sms wrote:
> > On 3/5/2024 4:28 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >> I mentioned he was probably confusing a 4mm hex drive with an M5. The
> >> vast majority of M5 hex cap screws have a 4mm drive.
> >
> > True, though there are M5 bolts with Philips heads and with hex heads.
>
> Yes, I was referring specifically to hex socket cap screws
>
> > Also with serrated flange heads which are good for vibration resistance.
> >
> > I use some medium or low strength Loctite on the bolts on the bicycles
> > that go into threaded holes.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >> - But hey, we're talking about a guy here who got frustrated because
> >> he couldn't find metric torx drivers. So what do we think is more
> >> likely; that tommy somehow managed to get not one but _two_ completely
> >> unrelated bikes with M4 water bottle mounts? or that tommy as usual
> >> doesn't know what he's talking about?
> >
> > It's important to be precise when going into a hardware store. If he
> > asked for a 4mm bolt he would be given an M4, not an M5.
>
> You're suggesting tommy would have asked for help......right.
>
> > I was just in
> > an Ace Hardware store in San Jose last Friday, after not having been in
> > that store for maybe six months. They've locked up nearly everything
> > that is either small or that is of high-value. Yes, people go in and
> > steal nuts and bolts!
>
> The hardware aisle in my local Home Depot looks like a rummage sale.
>
> >
> > I have a tool bag that is filled with metric nuts, bolts, and washers of
> > various sizes that I ordered from AliExpress. I don't want to be running
> > out to the hardware store every time I need some fastener, the time and
> > expense is not worth it. Also, there are metric fastener types that you
> > can't get at a hardware store in the U.S..
>
> I have bins with a wide variety of hardware from 40+ years of bikes,
> cars, various other accessories and equipment. The bike stuff is
> segregated, I haven't had to go to a hardware store for bike related
> nuts or bolts in....I can't even remember.
>
>
>

Only you would think that people need help to find a 4 mm screw. Only you would think that you couldn't tell a 4 mm screw simply by measuring it with a micrometer.

At my local Castro Valley hardware store the nut and bolt section is as need as possible. Various heads use various size hex wrenches as Frank just explained to you. Say, who was it that cited the incorrect size hexnut screw? When Liebermann can correct you obviously your engineering degree took you much longer than 6 years.

On Tue Mar 5 22:34:51 2024 Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tue Mar 5 16:02:11 2024 Zen Cycle wrote:
> > On 3/5/2024 1:33 PM, sms wrote:
> > > On 3/5/2024 4:28 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > >> I mentioned he was probably confusing a 4mm hex drive with an M5. The
> > >> vast majority of M5 hex cap screws have a 4mm drive.
> > >
> > > True, though there are M5 bolts with Philips heads and with hex heads.
> >
> > Yes, I was referring specifically to hex socket cap screws
> >
> > > Also with serrated flange heads which are good for vibration resistance.
> > >
> > > I use some medium or low strength Loctite on the bolts on the bicycles
> > > that go into threaded holes.
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > >> - But hey, we're talking about a guy here who got frustrated because
> > >> he couldn't find metric torx drivers. So what do we think is more
> > >> likely; that tommy somehow managed to get not one but _two_ completely
> > >> unrelated bikes with M4 water bottle mounts?

In the first placel, I was still recovering from my concussion and looking them up I found

https://www.ebay.com/itm/266635752722?itmmeta=01HR8CF15VG7QPWNK69K5H2V27&hash=item3e14bab512:g:KosAAOSwoD1ls1BY&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4NRzNnIUbhRR83EM9swqo6lu%2BKMXbMVM7gw9lkZ9%2BtUn5nEv1oTo%2Bcy7jzbsdOpBvYpu0xbNfZcWpX8HUXUpXDYCv6S35K%2FHtOFIFJec5UxNhzqAOY9zGTUhtsywatJ7WQX9w6Ho8hqX3mqWwYeY6GqoMWvhuuVHiPGKmvXmRM2dga3fpLwejF6ANJk69r3UzETYxYKM3kB1822hfMnA3rycN8an17U%2BXtDjtfkeAEydupF7RjiP1BtCiCGropzoeSFqYVIGD%2FNcE7HFNouSldVvJ8FuaoOyjRuM9o%2BPW4Mw%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR7qTvIzCYw

Which makes it appear that there are SAE and Metric size Torx fitings.

And secondly: you are still hiding behind now several psuedonyms in an effort to disguise your cowardly behavior. Shouldn't you be telling us how finishing dead last in a Cat 5 race is racing?

On Tue, 05 Mar 2024 22:34:51 GMT, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Say, who was it that cited the incorrect size hexnut screw?

That would be you Tom:

Message-ID: <1bdd1e3e-bdbf-4a3e-8684-2233ee8a3a86n@googlegroups.com>
"Wednesday I expect the rear derailleur mount in and I will mount that
and the rear derailleur, adjust everything, put on the bar tape and
ber take it for a ride. I stopped by the hardware store to get some 4
mm water bottle mounting screws and the low grade hardware store has
stopped carrying 4 mm screws. So I will have to go to the local Ace
Hardware in Castro Valley"

I just checked both of my bicycles. Both use M5 bolts.

Incidentally, you didn't cite anything, which would have required that
you provide an authoritative reference, something you've never done.
Look up the definition of "cite" or "cited".
<https://www.dictionary.com/browse/cite>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 07:28:44 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>IOW, if he went to a hardware store looking for a stainless steel hex
>cap screw with 4mm drive, it's more than likely it would have been an M5.
>
>Similarly, if you change the search parameters to M6 or M4, you'll see
>the drive size follows accordingly - most M6 are 5mm drive, most M4 are
>3 mm drive.
>
>That said, if he wanted a rounded style head, he would have been looking
>for a 2.5 or 3 mm drive M5. I've had a number of those over the years.

There's a good reason that there's no such thing as an M5 button head
screw with a 5mm hex drive. If you look at the cross section of an M5
button head screw, you might notice that there's very little metal
between the bottom of the hex drive hole and where the base of the cap
and threads meet. With an M5 drive on an M5 bolt, there's very little
metal to support the head, which would likely break or fall off.
<https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/RhYAAOSwCXJbHrLG/s-l1600.jpg>
Use a cutoff wheel in an angle grinder to grind off half the head to
see for yourself.

I was switching to Torx or security screws where possible. This is
what I might recommend:
<https://accu-components.com/us/torx-flanged-button-screws/356713-SHBF-M5-10-A2>
$1/ea or $13/100. Other styles are available:
<https://accu-components.com/us/shop/precision-components/precision-screws/button-head-screws>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 3/5/2024 4:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tue Mar 5 12:17:09 2024 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 10:33:07 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> IMVAIO, these are the ideal water bottle cage bolts:
>>> <https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/223304105572/?HissuCode=ZFB4X12>.
>>
>> That's an M4 bolts. (Thread Nominal - Metric).
>> If you want the M5 thread, it should be ZFB5X12 as in:
>> <https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/223304105572/?HissuCode=ZFB5X12>
>> Note that their price is $4.75 each. Maybe a lesser non-marine grade
>> stainless (304 A2 instead of 316 A4) would be cheaper:
>> <https://www.goebelfasteners.com/types-of-stainless-steel-a2-vs-a4-or-304-vs-316/>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
>> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
>> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
>> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>
>
> As usual you're blowing smoke since the connectors I buy are not $4.75 each but in packages of 5. "Marine Grade" means a stainless that doesn't show discoloration when exposed to water.

'Stainless' has wide diversity covering a host of materials:
https://us.sfs.com/learn-more/300-vs-400-stainless-steel
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/5/2024 4:52 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tue Mar 5 22:34:51 2024 Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Tue Mar 5 16:02:11 2024 Zen Cycle wrote:
>>> On 3/5/2024 1:33 PM, sms wrote:
>>>> On 3/5/2024 4:28 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> I mentioned he was probably confusing a 4mm hex drive with an M5. The
>>>>> vast majority of M5 hex cap screws have a 4mm drive.
>>>>
>>>> True, though there are M5 bolts with Philips heads and with hex heads.
>>>
>>> Yes, I was referring specifically to hex socket cap screws
>>>
>>>> Also with serrated flange heads which are good for vibration resistance.
>>>>
>>>> I use some medium or low strength Loctite on the bolts on the bicycles
>>>> that go into threaded holes.
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> - But hey, we're talking about a guy here who got frustrated because
>>>>> he couldn't find metric torx drivers. So what do we think is more
>>>>> likely; that tommy somehow managed to get not one but _two_ completely
>>>>> unrelated bikes with M4 water bottle mounts?
>
>
>
> In the first placel, I was still recovering from my concussion and looking them up I found
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/266635752722?itmmeta=01HR8CF15VG7QPWNK69K5H2V27&hash=item3e14bab512:g:KosAAOSwoD1ls1BY&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4NRzNnIUbhRR83EM9swqo6lu%2BKMXbMVM7gw9lkZ9%2BtUn5nEv1oTo%2Bcy7jzbsdOpBvYpu0xbNfZcWpX8HUXUpXDYCv6S35K%2FHtOFIFJec5UxNhzqAOY9zGTUhtsywatJ7WQX9w6Ho8hqX3mqWwYeY6GqoMWvhuuVHiPGKmvXmRM2dga3fpLwejF6ANJk69r3UzETYxYKM3kB1822hfMnA3rycN8an17U%2BXtDjtfkeAEydupF7RjiP1BtCiCGropzoeSFqYVIGD%2FNcE7HFNouSldVvJ8FuaoOyjRuM9o%2BPW4Mw%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR7qTvIzCYw
>
> Which makes it appear that there are SAE and Metric size Torx fitings.
>
> And secondly: you are still hiding behind now several psuedonyms in an effort to disguise your cowardly behavior. Shouldn't you be telling us how finishing dead last in a Cat 5 race is racing?

That ('SAE & Metric') refers to the hex drivers.

Also Pozidriv, also Torx, also T-Torx, also slotted, also
Phillips. Those are each an unique system, Torx being a
standard without subdivision.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/5/2024 5:28 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 07:28:44 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> IOW, if he went to a hardware store looking for a stainless steel hex
>> cap screw with 4mm drive, it's more than likely it would have been an M5.
>>
>> Similarly, if you change the search parameters to M6 or M4, you'll see
>> the drive size follows accordingly - most M6 are 5mm drive, most M4 are
>> 3 mm drive.
>>
>> That said, if he wanted a rounded style head, he would have been looking
>> for a 2.5 or 3 mm drive M5. I've had a number of those over the years.
>
> There's a good reason that there's no such thing as an M5 button head
> screw with a 5mm hex drive. If you look at the cross section of an M5
> button head screw, you might notice that there's very little metal
> between the bottom of the hex drive hole and where the base of the cap
> and threads meet. With an M5 drive on an M5 bolt, there's very little
> metal to support the head, which would likely break or fall off.
> <https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/RhYAAOSwCXJbHrLG/s-l1600.jpg>
> Use a cutoff wheel in an angle grinder to grind off half the head to
> see for yourself.
>
> I was switching to Torx or security screws where possible. This is
> what I might recommend:
> <https://accu-components.com/us/torx-flanged-button-screws/356713-SHBF-M5-10-A2>
> $1/ea or $13/100. Other styles are available:
> <https://accu-components.com/us/shop/precision-components/precision-screws/button-head-screws>
>
>
>

There are DIN standards for fasteners.

Where a fastener has a nonstandard head (ex. original Deore
series with 6mm hex broach on both m5x0.8 [standard =4mm]
and m6x1.0 [standard =5mm]) it's a proprietary "part" not
standard hardware.

As you note, some thought went into formation and adoption
of those standards.

For the common DIN 912, see page two row S:
https://www.aramfix.com/content/files/d912caill/datasheet%20din%20912.pdf

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

> On 3/5/2024 4:52 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> - But hey, we're talking about a guy here who got frustrated because
>>>>>> he couldn't find metric torx drivers. So what do we think is more
>>>>>> likely; that tommy somehow managed to get not one but _two_
>>>>>> completely
>>>>>> unrelated bikes with M4 water bottle mounts?
>>
>>
>>
>> In the first placel, I was still recovering from my concussion and
>> looking them up I found
>>
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/266635752722?itmmeta=01HR8CF15VG7QPWNK69K5H2V27&hash=item3e14bab512:g:KosAAOSwoD1ls1BY&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4NRzNnIUbhRR83EM9swqo6lu%2BKMXbMVM7gw9lkZ9%2BtUn5nEv1oTo%2Bcy7jzbsdOpBvYpu0xbNfZcWpX8HUXUpXDYCv6S35K%2FHtOFIFJec5UxNhzqAOY9zGTUhtsywatJ7WQX9w6Ho8hqX3mqWwYeY6GqoMWvhuuVHiPGKmvXmRM2dga3fpLwejF6ANJk69r3UzETYxYKM3kB1822hfMnA3rycN8an17U%2BXtDjtfkeAEydupF7RjiP1BtCiCGropzoeSFqYVIGD%2FNcE7HFNouSldVvJ8FuaoOyjRuM9o%2BPW4Mw%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR7qTvIzCYw
>>
>> Which makes it appear that there are SAE and Metric size Torx fitings.

No, it doesn't. It shows metric and SAE hex bits, and torx bits. There's
no appearance or implication of metric/SAE version of the torx bits.

>>
>> And secondly: you are still hiding behind now several psuedonyms in an
>> effort to disguise your cowardly behavior.

No, tommy, I'm posting under Zencycle which is the username from my
funkmaster hotmail account, the same email which I've always used to
post to this group. It's always been thus, there has been no effort to
change my posting identity. If you think I've used "several" nyms I
invite you to list which others you think I've posted under.

>> Shouldn't you be telling us
>> how finishing dead last in a Cat 5 race is racing?

I wouldn't be able to. I've never raced as a cat 5. I _did_ compete in a
Zwift race last sunday:
https://www.strava.com/activities/10881275533

It's categorized by FTP, I finished 18th out of 55 in category C
(approximates to a cat 3), 7th in a group of ten for the sprint and 89th
out of 284 overall. Considering it isn't age-graded, I certainly ended
up finishing better than a vast number of people significantly younger
than myself. Zwift Power Analytics says I ended up 3rd out of 26 riders
identifying as 60+, 207 watts avg, 658 watts peak, and the three riders
I beat in my group were all in the 40-49 age group.

I'm pretty happy with that effort.

Shouldn't you be telling us how you managed to ride a dent out of your
top tube?

--
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