Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 2/12/2024 4:35 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 2/12/2024 8:54 AM, sms wrote:
>>>> On 2/11/2024 2:48 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>>> And I suspect the same is true for the newest one, just a few months
>>>>>> old, in the downtown.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is why it was installed in london, to demonstrate the numbers and
>>>>> stop the Vincent Stops of the world from claiming it was empty.
>>>>
>>>> "...just a few months old" and Frank already wants to declare it a failure.
>>>
>>> I strongly suspect it's going to attract no more cyclists than the other
>>> nearby facility that's several years old. That is, roughly zero.
>>>
>>> Aside from the design deficiencies, the simple fact is neither one was
>>> needed. The adjacent streets are perfectly fine for cycling. The
>>> mentality that says "You gotta have some place _special_ or you can't
>>> ride a bike" is very, very weird.
>>>
>>
>> Are the adjacent streets as direct? Or where folks want to go?
>
> "As direct?" Absolutely! They are right along the roads I occasionally
> ride. One of the two facilities I'm describing uses the existing street
> pavement. They just separated its pavement from normal traffic lanes by
> concrete curbs and posts. The second facility, a few months old, runs
> essentially where the pedestrian sidewalk used to run, immediately
> adjacent to the road.
>
> Are they where people want to go? I think they hoped the first would
> help lure people from the downtown to the nearby metropark. I ride it
> for that reason, and our bike club has some rides that use that as a bit
> of their route. But there's been no great crowd of bike users with or
> without the facility. The newer bi-directional sidewalk bike path has an
> entertainment amphitheater and a city park adjacent, but I doubt many
> people are going to ride bikes to, say, a Monster Truck show.
>
Had a look at the heat map of Youngstown (Strava) by a staggering amount
Fifth Avenue is clearly the main way such cyclists travel note this is
folks using Strava so folks with a performance interest.

And seems to have some sort of cycle infrastructure using satellite view
now, though doesn’t show on street view yet.

But no reason to suggest that utility folks would differ seems to be the
direct route, plus has coffee shops and so on.

Other cities have tried quiet ways and similar doesn’t work it’s not the
road folks want to use!

Roger Merriman

On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 16:44:48 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>
>Not going to find any cycleways or similar as the population density is so
>low, unlikely to see any utility cycling out on the hills though might well
>see roadies or MTB types.

There's a 29+ bike trail that runs through "the green swamp."

https://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/recreation/green-swamp-wilderness-preserve

It's a great place to ride. Lots of birds, gaters, snakes, deer, etc.
I've ridden it up and back on occasion, and not seen another human.
Lately, it seems to have gotten more popular.

On 2/13/2024 7:40 AM, John B. wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 12 Feb 2024 23:15:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/12/2024 5:31 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> "there are others who have examined my
>>>>> bicycling qualifications, tested me and proclaimed that I do, indeed,
>>>>> know what I'm talking about regarding bicycling."
>>>>> Frank Krygowski
>>>>> https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/phkWDoYngY0/m/sSpJLrQKvKQJ
>>>>
>>>> It must be wonderful to be so superior.
>>>>
>>>> But my little 6 year old girl is still chasing her brother in the
>>>> village. Perhaps Frankie can give lessons on how to better chase your
>>>> brother down a village lane?
>>>
>>> Isn't it a liberal dogma that everyone is exactly as good as everyone
>>> else, so there's no need to try to educate oneself or increase one's
>>> competence?
>>>
>>> All the children are above average, and everyone gets the same sized
>>> gold plated trophy "for participation." Even if they weren't really there!
>
> You don't know much about kids, do you. And before you ,post some
> inane argument your posting above certainly makes it obvious.
>
> Nope, the girl is determined to overtake her big brother and beat him
> down the hill..

Your point seemed to be that since a 6 year old girl can ride a bike,
there's nothing to learn about riding a bike. Is that not what you implied?

My point is that not all bicyclists are equally competent. As with
driving, engineering, bicycle work and pretty much everything else, it's
possible to study, learn and gain skills and competence; and an adult
should certainly be more competent than a 6 year old. Aren't you?

But it's not mandatory. Some people prefer living in their own personal
walled garden, bound by their limitations and ignorance. Some disparage
people with more initiative, saying it's silly to gain more knowledge
and competence than they have.

I think that's a pitiful way to live.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 12:45:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/13/2024 7:40 AM, John B. wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 12 Feb 2024 23:15:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/12/2024 5:31 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "there are others who have examined my
>>>>>> bicycling qualifications, tested me and proclaimed that I do, indeed,
>>>>>> know what I'm talking about regarding bicycling."
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/phkWDoYngY0/m/sSpJLrQKvKQJ
>>>>>
>>>>> It must be wonderful to be so superior.
>>>>>
>>>>> But my little 6 year old girl is still chasing her brother in the
>>>>> village. Perhaps Frankie can give lessons on how to better chase your
>>>>> brother down a village lane?
>>>>
>>>> Isn't it a liberal dogma that everyone is exactly as good as everyone
>>>> else, so there's no need to try to educate oneself or increase one's
>>>> competence?
>>>>
>>>> All the children are above average, and everyone gets the same sized
>>>> gold plated trophy "for participation." Even if they weren't really there!
>>
>> You don't know much about kids, do you. And before you ,post some
>> inane argument your posting above certainly makes it obvious.
>>
>> Nope, the girl is determined to overtake her big brother and beat him
>> down the hill..
>
>Your point seemed to be that since a 6 year old girl can ride a bike,
>there's nothing to learn about riding a bike. Is that not what you implied?
>
>My point is that not all bicyclists are equally competent. As with
>driving, engineering, bicycle work and pretty much everything else, it's
>possible to study, learn and gain skills and competence; and an adult
>should certainly be more competent than a 6 year old. Aren't you?
>
>But it's not mandatory. Some people prefer living in their own personal
>walled garden, bound by their limitations and ignorance. Some disparage
>people with more initiative, saying it's silly to gain more knowledge
>and competence than they have.
>
>I think that's a pitiful way to live.

Little children learn how to ride bicycle all by themselves. Some
pathetic people think that it's rocket science amd require
instructions.

I think that's a pitiful way to live.

On 2/13/2024 10:28 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Tue, 13 Feb 2024 13:17:07 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>
>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>>
>>> In either case, "bicycle infrastructure"is a detriment. In the best
>>> case, rarely that is, it is just superfluous and unnecessary, in the
>>> more frequent case it is dangerous, inconvenient to use and, of course,
>>> mandatory.
>>
>> Not in all Europe?
>
> In those parts of Europe where we cycled long enough and far enough.
> This includes large parts of Germany, France and some parts of Italy.

I'm curious about the enforcement of mandatory sidepaths. I've ridden in
France, and just a bit in Italy and Germany, but nobody told me anything
about having to use a sidepath.

What would be the likely result of riding on the road you photographed,
ignoring the ugly looking sidepath? Would motorists be abusive? Would
police be called and issue you fines?

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 2/13/2024 7:40 AM, John B. wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 12 Feb 2024 23:15:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/12/2024 5:31 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "there are others who have examined my
>>>>>> bicycling qualifications, tested me and proclaimed that I do, indeed,
>>>>>> know what I'm talking about regarding bicycling."
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/phkWDoYngY0/m/sSpJLrQKvKQJ
>>>>>
>>>>> It must be wonderful to be so superior.
>>>>>
>>>>> But my little 6 year old girl is still chasing her brother in the
>>>>> village. Perhaps Frankie can give lessons on how to better chase your
>>>>> brother down a village lane?
>>>>
>>>> Isn't it a liberal dogma that everyone is exactly as good as everyone
>>>> else, so there's no need to try to educate oneself or increase one's
>>>> competence?
>>>>
>>>> All the children are above average, and everyone gets the same sized
>>>> gold plated trophy "for participation." Even if they weren't really there!
>>
>> You don't know much about kids, do you. And before you ,post some
>> inane argument your posting above certainly makes it obvious.
>>
>> Nope, the girl is determined to overtake her big brother and beat him
>> down the hill..
>
> Your point seemed to be that since a 6 year old girl can ride a bike,
> there's nothing to learn about riding a bike. Is that not what you implied?
>
> My point is that not all bicyclists are equally competent. As with
> driving, engineering, bicycle work and pretty much everything else, it's
> possible to study, learn and gain skills and competence; and an adult
> should certainly be more competent than a 6 year old. Aren't you?
>
> But it's not mandatory. Some people prefer living in their own personal
> walled garden, bound by their limitations and ignorance. Some disparage
> people with more initiative, saying it's silly to gain more knowledge
> and competence than they have.
>
> I think that's a pitiful way to live.
>
Well indeed I have fresh Green Gravel riders at the club, they are all
fitter than I but I have quite a large technical skill advantage, due to my
MTB background.

The gap is closing as they learn but remains ie I’m better at picking my
line though stuff and my weight/position so on.

Roger Merriman

On 2/13/2024 5:17 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:

<snip>

> It’s hardly rare! Bikes are a common sight to see on roads and cycleways be
> that london or the hills of mid Wales. Ie that you see a bike isn’t a rare
> sight.
>
> And in most cities they are used and hills absolutely do not put folks off,
> Bristol/Bath are both in a steep valley and are “cycling city’s” with there
> cycling culture and so on.

San Francisco is full of hills and cycling rates have greatly increased
since more bicycle infrastructure has been built.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 2/13/2024 10:25 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, February 10, 2024 at 7:55:41 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/10/2024 8:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> We can be absolutely certain that Frank has never ridden in Silicon Valley with street traffic traveling 70 mph. Having done so even once would have him thanking his lucky stars for bike facilities rather than talking about taking the lane.
>> You're right, I haven't ridden in Silicon Valley. One can't ride
>> everywhere.
>>
>> OTOH, John Forester, who did the most to develop and explain the
>> concepts of Vehicular Cycling, certainly did. IIRC he was from somewhere
>> right around there. Possibly Sunnyvale. He absolutely rode there using
>> the techniques I've discussed.
>>
>> Tom expresses such fear of using his legal right to the road!
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> John Forrester road in Silicon Valley with a population 1/8th what it is now. But apparently you don't think that makes a difference.

It may. I don't know the area at all.

But I recall many posts here over the years with one similar theme: "You
don't know how dangerous it is where _I_ ride!! It's terrible here!!"
But the _Cycling Savvy_ education program was founded near Orlando,
Florida, a place many people claim is deadly for cycling.
https://cyclingsavvy.org/

And of course I've gotten similar comments about roads in my area: "I
would _never_ ride on that road!! It's too dangerous!!" Yet I have
ridden those local roads, and I've ridden in some of those other areas.

Some places are nicer than others, of course. But also, some people are
more competent than others. Some people are less fearful than others.

Do whatever makes you comfortable, Tom. It doesn't matter to me.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 18:02:16 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 2/13/2024 7:40 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 12 Feb 2024 23:15:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/12/2024 5:31 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "there are others who have examined my
>>>>>>> bicycling qualifications, tested me and proclaimed that I do, indeed,
>>>>>>> know what I'm talking about regarding bicycling."
>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/phkWDoYngY0/m/sSpJLrQKvKQJ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It must be wonderful to be so superior.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But my little 6 year old girl is still chasing her brother in the
>>>>>> village. Perhaps Frankie can give lessons on how to better chase your
>>>>>> brother down a village lane?
>>>>>
>>>>> Isn't it a liberal dogma that everyone is exactly as good as everyone
>>>>> else, so there's no need to try to educate oneself or increase one's
>>>>> competence?
>>>>>
>>>>> All the children are above average, and everyone gets the same sized
>>>>> gold plated trophy "for participation." Even if they weren't really there!
>>>
>>> You don't know much about kids, do you. And before you ,post some
>>> inane argument your posting above certainly makes it obvious.
>>>
>>> Nope, the girl is determined to overtake her big brother and beat him
>>> down the hill..
>>
>> Your point seemed to be that since a 6 year old girl can ride a bike,
>> there's nothing to learn about riding a bike. Is that not what you implied?
>>
>> My point is that not all bicyclists are equally competent. As with
>> driving, engineering, bicycle work and pretty much everything else, it's
>> possible to study, learn and gain skills and competence; and an adult
>> should certainly be more competent than a 6 year old. Aren't you?
>>
>> But it's not mandatory. Some people prefer living in their own personal
>> walled garden, bound by their limitations and ignorance. Some disparage
>> people with more initiative, saying it's silly to gain more knowledge
>> and competence than they have.
>>
>> I think that's a pitiful way to live.
>>
>Well indeed I have fresh Green Gravel riders at the club, they are all
>fitter than I but I have quite a large technical skill advantage, due to my
>MTB background.
>
>The gap is closing as they learn but remains ie I’m better at picking my
>line though stuff and my weight/position so on.
>
>Roger Merriman

On 2/13/2024 9:00 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:

<snip>

> Had a look at the heat map of Youngstown (Strava) by a staggering amount
> Fifth Avenue is clearly the main way such cyclists travel note this is
> folks using Strava so folks with a performance interest.
>
> And seems to have some sort of cycle infrastructure using satellite view
> now, though doesn’t show on street view yet.

Looks like they just painted a bicycle symbol on the regular traffic lanes.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 13:14:22 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/13/2024 10:25 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Saturday, February 10, 2024 at 7:55:41?PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 2/10/2024 8:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>> We can be absolutely certain that Frank has never ridden in Silicon Valley with street traffic traveling 70 mph. Having done so even once would have him thanking his lucky stars for bike facilities rather than talking about taking the lane.
>>> You're right, I haven't ridden in Silicon Valley. One can't ride
>>> everywhere.
>>>
>>> OTOH, John Forester, who did the most to develop and explain the
>>> concepts of Vehicular Cycling, certainly did. IIRC he was from somewhere
>>> right around there. Possibly Sunnyvale. He absolutely rode there using
>>> the techniques I've discussed.
>>>
>>> Tom expresses such fear of using his legal right to the road!
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>> John Forrester road in Silicon Valley with a population 1/8th what it is now. But apparently you don't think that makes a difference.
>
>It may. I don't know the area at all.
>
>But I recall many posts here over the years with one similar theme: "You
>don't know how dangerous it is where _I_ ride!! It's terrible here!!"
>But the _Cycling Savvy_ education program was founded near Orlando,
>Florida, a place many people claim is deadly for cycling.
>https://cyclingsavvy.org/
>
>And of course I've gotten similar comments about roads in my area: "I
>would _never_ ride on that road!! It's too dangerous!!" Yet I have
>ridden those local roads, and I've ridden in some of those other areas.

I doubt anyone talks to Krygowski like that.

>Some places are nicer than others, of course. But also, some people are
>more competent than others. Some people are less fearful than others.

Indeed, some people aren't afraid to use clipless pedals.

>Do whatever makes you comfortable, Tom. It doesn't matter to me.

Apparently, what other people do really does matter to Krygowski?

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 2/13/2024 10:28 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>> Am Tue, 13 Feb 2024 13:17:07 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>
>>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In either case, "bicycle infrastructure"is a detriment. In the best
>>>> case, rarely that is, it is just superfluous and unnecessary, in the
>>>> more frequent case it is dangerous, inconvenient to use and, of course,
>>>> mandatory.
>>>
>>> Not in all Europe?
>>
>> In those parts of Europe where we cycled long enough and far enough.
>> This includes large parts of Germany, France and some parts of Italy.
>
> I'm curious about the enforcement of mandatory sidepaths. I've ridden in
> France, and just a bit in Italy and Germany, but nobody told me anything
> about having to use a sidepath.
>
> What would be the likely result of riding on the road you photographed,
> ignoring the ugly looking sidepath? Would motorists be abusive? Would
> police be called and issue you fines?
>

Germany is quite car centric it feels, think also the German bike light
regulations and so on.

Roger Merriman

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 2/13/2024 5:17 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> It’s hardly rare! Bikes are a common sight to see on roads and cycleways be
>> that london or the hills of mid Wales. Ie that you see a bike isn’t a rare
>> sight.
>>
>> And in most cities they are used and hills absolutely do not put folks off,
>> Bristol/Bath are both in a steep valley and are “cycling city’s” with there
>> cycling culture and so on.
>
> San Francisco is full of hills and cycling rates have greatly increased
> since more bicycle infrastructure has been built.
>

Indeed it’s one of the things that is just said no evidence for it, see
also winter and so on, apparently though do get a drop at -20/30 mark but
otherwise as long as stuff is kept snow free or at least ice free folks
cycle.

Roger Merriman

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 2/13/2024 9:00 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Had a look at the heat map of Youngstown (Strava) by a staggering amount
>> Fifth Avenue is clearly the main way such cyclists travel note this is
>> folks using Strava so folks with a performance interest.
>>
>> And seems to have some sort of cycle infrastructure using satellite view
>> now, though doesn’t show on street view yet.
>
> Looks like they just painted a bicycle symbol on the regular traffic lanes.
>

Apparently so! Though seems to be something on the junctions?

From a uk perspective the size of the road though the city centre is
totally out of proportion particularly considering the size (or lack of it)
of Youngstown.

Roger Merriman

Am Tue, 13 Feb 2024 12:15:30 -0500 schrieb Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org>:

>On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 16:44:48 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>Not going to find any cycleways or similar as the population density is so
>>low, unlikely to see any utility cycling out on the hills though might well
>>see roadies or MTB types.
>
>There's a 29+ bike trail that runs through "the green swamp."

What have some trails in an unpopulated nature preservation park far far
away have to do with cycling where one lives or where one stays during a
vacation? Or with where and how to ride a bike to visit a family member
or a friend living in another city?

>
>https://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/recreation/green-swamp-wilderness-preserve
>
>It's a great place to ride. Lots of birds, gaters, snakes, deer, etc.
>I've ridden it up and back on occasion, and not seen another human.
>Lately, it seems to have gotten more popular.

Fine. But that park won't get me from Bonn to Cologne, for a familiy
visit.

--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 11:34:01 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 08:09:55 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 9:21:45?AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 2/12/2024 4:28 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> > Catrike Ryder <Sol...@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Have you not noticed that no matter what topic has been posted,
>>> >> Krygowsi always has a personal ancdotal story that either disputes or
>>> >> supports it? Everything has to be about him.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > Yes that is the way he described things, to make his point. Different folks
>>> > have different ways of expressing themselves.
>>> I have lots of friends, I've done lots of things. When some of those are
>>> relevant, I mention them.
>>>
>>> I'm sorry if those facts make others jealous. But it's not my problem.
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>>Frank, it is nice that you have friends, but their experiences aren't yours and your referring to their expertise is silly because you don't actually know what it is.
>
>Krygowski hasn't really done lots of things. All he claims to have
>done is stand in front of a classroom and ride bicycles. Yeah, he says
>he rode in lots of different places, but really, riding a bicycle is
>simply riding a bicycle, not matter where you do it.
>
>I don't know of any adult who has done less than Krygowski.

Well, bicycling is very much a matter of "right foot - left foot", so
maybe Frankie does it "Left foot - right foot". Different, you know.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 21:55:07 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
<news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:

>Am Tue, 13 Feb 2024 12:15:30 -0500 schrieb Catrike Ryder
><Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
>
>>On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 16:44:48 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Not going to find any cycleways or similar as the population density is so
>>>low, unlikely to see any utility cycling out on the hills though might well
>>>see roadies or MTB types.
>>
>>There's a 29+ bike trail that runs through "the green swamp."
>
>What have some trails in an unpopulated nature preservation park far far
>away have to do with cycling where one lives or where one stays during a
>vacation? Or with where and how to ride a bike to visit a family member
>or a friend living in another city?

Nope, it's just a place where you can ride on a paved path through a
swamp.
https://www.floridastateparks.org/parks-and-trails/general-james-van-fleet-state-trail

It was an abandoned railroad right of way. There's a small town at the
southern end, a couple of houses at one point, and the northern
terminal is a couple of more houses that used to be a little town.
That place is 10 miles or so from anyplace with a gas station,
restaurant, or a coffee shop.

>>https://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/recreation/green-swamp-wilderness-preserve
>>
>>It's a great place to ride. Lots of birds, gaters, snakes, deer, etc.
>>I've ridden it up and back on occasion, and not seen another human.
>>Lately, it seems to have gotten more popular.
>
>Fine. But that park won't get me from Bonn to Cologne, for a familiy
>visit.

Well, that's not the kind of thing I want to do. Actually, it's
something I've never done, and likely will never do.

On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 12:57:18 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 12:45:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 2/13/2024 7:40 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 12 Feb 2024 23:15:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/12/2024 5:31 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "there are others who have examined my
>>>>>>> bicycling qualifications, tested me and proclaimed that I do, indeed,
>>>>>>> know what I'm talking about regarding bicycling."
>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/phkWDoYngY0/m/sSpJLrQKvKQJ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It must be wonderful to be so superior.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But my little 6 year old girl is still chasing her brother in the
>>>>>> village. Perhaps Frankie can give lessons on how to better chase your
>>>>>> brother down a village lane?
>>>>>
>>>>> Isn't it a liberal dogma that everyone is exactly as good as everyone
>>>>> else, so there's no need to try to educate oneself or increase one's
>>>>> competence?
>>>>>
>>>>> All the children are above average, and everyone gets the same sized
>>>>> gold plated trophy "for participation." Even if they weren't really there!
>>>
>>> You don't know much about kids, do you. And before you ,post some
>>> inane argument your posting above certainly makes it obvious.
>>>
>>> Nope, the girl is determined to overtake her big brother and beat him
>>> down the hill..
>>
>>Your point seemed to be that since a 6 year old girl can ride a bike,
>>there's nothing to learn about riding a bike. Is that not what you implied?
>>
>>My point is that not all bicyclists are equally competent. As with
>>driving, engineering, bicycle work and pretty much everything else, it's
>>possible to study, learn and gain skills and competence; and an adult
>>should certainly be more competent than a 6 year old. Aren't you?
>>
>>But it's not mandatory. Some people prefer living in their own personal
>>walled garden, bound by their limitations and ignorance. Some disparage
>>people with more initiative, saying it's silly to gain more knowledge
>>and competence than they have.
>>
>>I think that's a pitiful way to live.
>
>Little children learn how to ride bicycle all by themselves. Some
>pathetic people think that it's rocket science amd require
>instructions.
>
>I think that's a pitiful way to live.

It's so noticeable that those that those that have limited skills talk
the most about "gaining more knowledge".

The road the little girl rides on is the usual small village or
settlement 2 lane street, in this case bounded by houses and some
small shops on one side with a "shoulder" wide enough to walk, ride a
bike or park a motor bike. The other side is an 8 ft high, solid
concrete wall, the boundary wall for a Buddhist temple. Traffic ranges
from autos and pickups to motor bikes to bicycles to folks walking.
Traffics is not "heavy" but certainly not "light" either.

Frankie will now teach us how to ride this street aster than a
speeding bullet, stronger than a locomotive, able to leap tall
buildings in a single bound. He will be wearing a blue "skin suit"
with a large "S" on the chest.

Silly? Certain! After all it is Frankie.

--
Cheers,

John B.

Am Tue, 13 Feb 2024 13:00:00 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:

>On 2/13/2024 10:28 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>> Am Tue, 13 Feb 2024 13:17:07 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>
>>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In either case, "bicycle infrastructure"is a detriment. In the best
>>>> case, rarely that is, it is just superfluous and unnecessary, in the
>>>> more frequent case it is dangerous, inconvenient to use and, of course,
>>>> mandatory.
>>>
>>> Not in all Europe?
>>
>> In those parts of Europe where we cycled long enough and far enough.
>> This includes large parts of Germany, France and some parts of Italy.
>
>I'm curious about the enforcement of mandatory sidepaths. I've ridden in
>France, and just a bit in Italy and Germany, but nobody told me anything
>about having to use a sidepath.

You where lucky, believe me. It happened to me on my commute once,
while I was riding on the central bridge over the Rhine
("Kennedybrücke"), avoiding the mandatory side path, which was and still
is more or less shared with pedestrian, riding on the road, instead,
which had two lanes per direction at that time. Got stopped by a police
group controlling cyclists, quite unfriendly. Apparently, as always, the
coordination between the construction workers on the other side of the
brige and the police didn't work this time, either. So I explained that
the cycle path on the other side was officially closed by a traffic sign
and that I prefered that mostly empty road, anyway. No luck, they
contradicted my, but didn't bother to check it out, handing me a warning
with costs ("Verwarnung") for my lack of a bell, instead.

I was even repeatedly shouted at by people on the sidewalk for not using
the bicycle path. Some of those sidewalks actually where bicycle paths,
and some of these people where cyclists.

It is easy to avoid being fined as a cyclist during vacations. Vacations
usually aren't that long. We had essentially two weeks of vacation days
per year usable for riding, that ten days at max, given that one has to
get to the vacation accommodation. For comparison, I commuted for about
200 days per year in good times, rest where business trips etc. Thats
about twenty as many chances for fining, even more so because riding in
dense traffic during rush hour has much more potential for conflict than
riding on empty country roads over the day.

Obviously violating a traffic rule that is subject to a penalty is a
very bad starting position in the event of a conflict, even if you were
not responsible for the conflict in the first place.

Anyway, I avoided more than 90 percent of all those mandatory cycle
paths during my commute, without getting fined for that very delict,
ever. But it came with a price. I would have preferred to concentrate a
little more on the important things rather than trying to remember the
specific reasons why the cycle path was unusable.

We specifically choose riding in areas with many roads without "cycling
infrastructure", for our vacations. They mostly build these
all-embracing networks of mandatory paths in the cities and their
periphery. Out in the countryside, these are fewer, in France it's
mostly the N and some major D roads that were disfigured with cycle
paths. While we sadly remember the times when you could still cycle on
many Ns, we still know places mostly free from such obstacles. But we
have as simple rule too: when planning a lengthy tour for the day, stay
away at least five kilometres from the outer city boundary, twice as
much for larger cities, for mandatory biycle infrastructure starts
there.

I'm not the type of person looking for confrontation or trouble and was
able to avoid any real damage or accident in connection with "bicycle
infrastructure" or better, for me just not using that pesty Radweg. I'm
not counting minor harrasments, of course, and not counting an early
accident, in which I was hit by a car on a cycle path where I had the
right of way. But there are many people who either attract harassment
or are less fortunate.

>
>What would be the likely result of riding on the road you photographed,
>ignoring the ugly looking sidepath? Would motorists be abusive?

On that road? Improbable, there is almost no traffic there and a lot of
space. But you can never be sure.

In general? Yes, definitively. I was harrased by the driver of a large
and long scheduled bus (public transit) on an ascent near my home, a few
years ago. He first drove his long vehicle closely up to me, continuosly
honking all the time, then he overtook slowly (takes some time with a
truck like vehicle), almost forcing my into the curb.

I caught up with him at the top of the hill and confronted him.

"You should have cycled on the cycle path!"

"That's not a cycle path, but a walkway that is marked as open to
cyclists, these are not compulsory. I rather avoid conflicts with
pedestrians and so legaly use the road!"

"Thats a mandatory cycle path".

"Shall we wait for the police to clear that up?"
"Well, no."

"So why where you honking, continuously and almost forcing me into the
curb? Both is illegal."

"It isn't!"

"Of course it is. Harassment of persons is illegal. We are inside a
builtup area. Honking before overtaking is only allowed outside of towns
and from a distance, or generally in case of a sudden, unexpected
danger".

"Riding here is dangerous, I was warning you and inform you about that
bike path".

"You don't really believe that, do you? What danger are you warning
about? Your being a danger to other people, on that road? That's just
illegal. Wy didn't you just overtake at a suitable moment? The road was
completely empty most of the time! I wouldnt have mind a short honk from
a distance, legal or not. But that was a threat and harassment."

I finally gave up.

Now consider:

Legally, that isn't cycle path, thats legally a walkway with conditional
permit for cyclists. Pestrians have absolute priority here, it is
practically illegal to ride fast and overtaking pedestrians is always a
legal risk, you can hardly do it right.

Then extrapolate to the behaviour, when that sidepath indeed is a
mandatory cycle path. It's always easy peasy when there is a lot of
space and almost no traffic. Not so in dense traffic, when everyone is
suspicious of their rights.

>Would
>police be called and issue you fines?

Who knows? Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. It's a gamble
and the law isn't on your side. It depends on the mood of the police at
that day, on your behaviour and whatnot.

There are many reports of people being fined for not using a cycle path.
Some litigate, some win, some don't. In any case, it is expensive,
time-consuming and annoying. In addition, not using a mandatory cycle
path sometimes is wrongly assessed as the cause of the accident, without
further evidence.

I summary, "I've never been fined, I've not yet been fined, I rarely get
fined" isn't the way. The obligation to use cycle paths should be
removed from the law without replacement.

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

Am Tue, 13 Feb 2024 18:27:33 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:

>Germany is quite car centric it feels, think also the German bike light
>regulations and so on.

Not as car centric as the Netherlands and the German bike light
regulations aren't that bad. These became a lot better, a while ago.
They still leave a few things to be desired, but early on they caused
the development of some quite effective generator powered lights.

Remove compulsory bike paths from StVO, allow high beams like those in
cars to StVZO, wait a decade, and it becomes almost paradiese, here.

--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Am Tue, 13 Feb 2024 18:27:33 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>
>
>> Germany is quite car centric it feels, think also the German bike light
>> regulations and so on.
>
> Not as car centric as the Netherlands and the German bike light
> regulations aren't that bad. These became a lot better, a while ago.
> They still leave a few things to be desired, but early on they caused
> the development of some quite effective generator powered lights.
>
> Remove compulsory bike paths from StVO, allow high beams like those in
> cars to StVZO, wait a decade, and it becomes almost paradiese, here.
>
>
I thought some of the E bike powered lights had a high beam? Perhaps it’s
intended for off road only or other loop hole?

My old commute light has a high/low remote toggle very handy really.

Roger Merriman

On 2/13/2024 10:27 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:

<snip>

> Indeed it’s one of the things that is just said no evidence for it

The U.S. Census Bureau American Community Survey showed a steady
increase in cycle commuting in San Francisco that correlated with
improvements in bicycle infrastructure.

But the pandemic, remote-working, and the tech exodus from San Francisco
has likely lowered the number of bicycle commuters in the past few
years, though it's not clear if the percentage fell as well since there
are a lot less commuters overall.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 2/13/2024 10:31 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:

> From a uk perspective the size of the road though the city centre is
> totally out of proportion particularly considering the size (or lack of it)
> of Youngstown.

Youngstown's population fell from a peak of about 179,000 in the 1930's
to about 59,000 today. No doubt that the roads were built for the much
larger population in the past.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 2/13/2024 5:48 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> >
> Cyclist: "Shall we wait for the police to clear that up?"
>
> Motorist: "Well, no."

I've used that on several occasions with motorists who got really
obnoxious about telling me what the laws say. "Let's see what the cops
say. Let's call one here right now." The motorists backed down each time.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/13/2024 8:44 PM, sms wrote:
> On 2/13/2024 10:27 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Indeed it’s one of the things that is just said no evidence for it
>
> The U.S. Census Bureau American Community Survey showed a steady
> increase in cycle commuting in San Francisco that correlated with
> improvements in bicycle infrastructure.

As I recall, there was also a big surge in bike use in San Francisco
during the years that a lawsuit prevented the construction of almost any
bike facilities.

It obviously wasn't facilities causing the increase. It was fashion.

And Portland, Oregon is still building ever more "innovative" bike
facilities. But last I checked, its bike mode share was plummeting from
its previous peak. Fashion changes.

--
- Frank Krygowski