This morning on TV they showed the PG&E power map and here on an early morning low power usage morning, there were 8 neighborhoods that had power outages and no guesses as to when power would be returned.

When I said that this was a problem for EV's I was guffawed by Flunky, Liebermann and Krygowski who said it couldn't be done.

The fact is that we are rapidly LOSING generation capacity such as the Oregon and Washington state rivers removing their river dams and the capacity to generate their own electricity and so buying it from California.

Now certainly I worry about the Salmon runs being greatly reduced by the damming of the rivers. But why would they remove generation capacity and then proclaim EV's as the new savior of the world? This means that electricity has to travel FAR further and hence lose more to resistance and transmission loses.

I really do like the idea of EV's because of the simplicity of the drive train but it is impractical to actually convert over if there is NO excess capacity to charge EV's. This aside from the fact that the battery technology is still very dangerous. We continue to hear of better batteries from this manufacturer or that but we have yet to actually see them and the lack of excess charging capacity remains.

On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 20:17:57 GMT, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>This morning on TV they showed the PG&E power map and here on an early morning low power usage morning, there were 8 neighborhoods that had power outages and no guesses as to when power would be returned.
>
>When I said that this was a problem for EV's I was guffawed by Flunky, Liebermann and Krygowski who said it couldn't be done.
>
>The fact is that we are rapidly LOSING generation capacity such as the Oregon and Washington state rivers removing their river dams and the capacity to generate their own electricity and so buying it from California.
>
>Now certainly I worry about the Salmon runs being greatly reduced by the damming of the rivers. But why would they remove generation capacity and then proclaim EV's as the new savior of the world? This means that electricity has to travel FAR further and hence lose more to resistance and transmission loses.
>
>I really do like the idea of EV's because of the simplicity of the drive train but it is impractical to actually convert over if there is NO excess capacity to charge EV's. This aside from the fact that the battery technology is still very dangerous. We continue to hear of better batteries from this manufacturer or that but we have yet to actually see them and the lack of excess charging capacity remains.

You're talking about what's called curtailment which is a power
generation facility that is offline for whatever reasons. In this
case, it's because there's either insufficient demand for the
electricity produced. This is called oversupply. Usually, the
expensive solar and wind generation facilities that are the first to
be curtailed.

"Wind and Solar Curtailment February 17, 2024"
<http://www.caiso.com/Documents/Wind_SolarReal-TimeDispatchCurtailmentReportFeb17_2024.pdf>
<http://www.caiso.com/informed/Pages/ManagingOversupply.aspx#dailyCurtailment>
There's plenty more on the CAISO web pile that should explain the
reductions in generation capacity. For example, some buzzwords:

"Curtailed / non-operational generator report glossary"
<http://www.caiso.com/market/Pages/OutageManagement/Curtailed-OperationalGeneratorReportGlossary.aspx>

"Curtailed and Non-Operational Generator AM Report"
<http://www.caiso.com/Documents/Curtailed-non-operational-generator-am-report-20240218.xlsx>
A table showing the number of generating plants that are offline today
is at the bottom of the report. 23,000 MW currently curtailed. You
also might be amused at the list of companies that are providing
surplus power to the grid.

Also, you might find this of interest:
"2023 Levelized Cost Of Energy+"
<https://www.lazard.com/media/2ozoovyg/lazards-lcoeplus-april-2023.pdf
The report breaks down the cost of energy by source.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 20:17:57 GMT, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> This morning on TV they showed the PG&E power map and here on an early
>> morning low power usage morning, there were 8 neighborhoods that had
>> power outages and no guesses as to when power would be returned.
>>
>> When I said that this was a problem for EV's I was guffawed by Flunky,
>> Liebermann and Krygowski who said it couldn't be done.
>>
>> The fact is that we are rapidly LOSING generation capacity such as the
>> Oregon and Washington state rivers removing their river dams and the
>> capacity to generate their own electricity and so buying it from California.
>>
>> Now certainly I worry about the Salmon runs being greatly reduced by the
>> damming of the rivers. But why would they remove generation capacity and
>> then proclaim EV's as the new savior of the world? This means that
>> electricity has to travel FAR further and hence lose more to resistance
>> and transmission loses.
>>
>> I really do like the idea of EV's because of the simplicity of the drive
>> train but it is impractical to actually convert over if there is NO
>> excess capacity to charge EV's. This aside from the fact that the
>> battery technology is still very dangerous. We continue to hear of
>> better batteries from this manufacturer or that but we have yet to
>> actually see them and the lack of excess charging capacity remains.
>
> You're talking about what's called curtailment which is a power
> generation facility that is offline for whatever reasons. In this
> case, it's because there's either insufficient demand for the
> electricity produced. This is called oversupply. Usually, the
> expensive solar and wind generation facilities that are the first to
> be curtailed.
>
I’m told that’s one of the issues? With coal and similar power stations
they take a while to restart and shut down so the trend is to keep them on
even if not needed.

> "Wind and Solar Curtailment February 17, 2024"
> <http://www.caiso.com/Documents/Wind_SolarReal-TimeDispatchCurtailmentReportFeb17_2024.pdf>
> <http://www.caiso.com/informed/Pages/ManagingOversupply.aspx#dailyCurtailment>
> There's plenty more on the CAISO web pile that should explain the
> reductions in generation capacity. For example, some buzzwords:
>
> "Curtailed / non-operational generator report glossary"
> <http://www.caiso.com/market/Pages/OutageManagement/Curtailed-OperationalGeneratorReportGlossary.aspx>
>
> "Curtailed and Non-Operational Generator AM Report"
> <http://www.caiso.com/Documents/Curtailed-non-operational-generator-am-report-20240218.xlsx>
> A table showing the number of generating plants that are offline today
> is at the bottom of the report. 23,000 MW currently curtailed. You
> also might be amused at the list of companies that are providing
> surplus power to the grid.
>
> Also, you might find this of interest:
> "2023 Levelized Cost Of Energy+"
> <https://www.lazard.com/media/2ozoovyg/lazards-lcoeplus-april-2023.pdf
> The report breaks down the cost of energy by source.
>
>
Roger Merriman

On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 22:04:04 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>I’m told that’s one of the issues? With coal and similar power stations
>they take a while to restart and shut down so the trend is to keep them on
>even if not needed.

Yes, that's very true but is not a huge problem unless the system is
running at capacity, as is common during a heat wave.

"About 25% of U.S. power plants can start up within an hour"
<https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=45956>

Delays in cold starting a generation plant can happen with any type of
generation. Even a nuclear powered steam turbine requires time. The
problem is that the generator has to synchronized to the grid
frequency (50/60Hz), voltage and phase.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronization_(alternating_current)>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchroscope>
Exceptions are battery banks like a Tesla PowerWall and various
monster grid battery storage stations:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_storage_power_station>
along with wind and solar generation, which like the battery bank are
drive the grid with an inverter and not a rotating generator. Battery,
wind, and solar will sync to the grid in tens of milliseconds and
therefore can go rapidly on and off line.

"About 25% of U.S. power plants can start up within an hour"
<https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=45956>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 2/18/2024 1:56 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> You're talking about what's called curtailment which is a power
> generation facility that is offline for whatever reasons. In this
> case, it's because there's either insufficient demand for the
> electricity produced. This is called oversupply. Usually, the
> expensive solar and wind generation facilities that are the first to
> be curtailed.

At times when there is a shortage of generating capacity, hot summer
afternoons, PG&E will purchase electricity from corporations with excess
solar capacity. No idea how much they pay, but you can be sure that it's
a lot more per KWH than they normally pay under NEM 3.0.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 14:33:53 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 22:04:04 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I’m told that’s one of the issues? With coal and similar power stations
>>they take a while to restart and shut down so the trend is to keep them on
>>even if not needed.
>
>Yes, that's very true but is not a huge problem unless the system is
>running at capacity, as is common during a heat wave.
>
>"About 25% of U.S. power plants can start up within an hour"
><https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=45956>
>
>Delays in cold starting a generation plant can happen with any type of
>generation. Even a nuclear powered steam turbine requires time. The
>problem is that the generator has to synchronized to the grid
>frequency (50/60Hz), voltage and phase.

The synch is the least of the problem. The biggest problem for a steam
plant is getting the boiler and turbine up to temperature and pressure
without undue stress. Back when I was doing it, (around 1964) we
synched manually. I brought the turbine/generator up to speed slowly
(I think it was about an hour) and I closed the switch when it matched
system frequency.. actually, just a tiny bit ahead so it was
generating immediately. You didn't want it to motorize.

Nowadays, the whole process including the synch is automatic.

><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronization_(alternating_current)>
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchroscope>
>Exceptions are battery banks like a Tesla PowerWall and various
>monster grid battery storage stations:
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_storage_power_station>
>along with wind and solar generation, which like the battery bank are
>drive the grid with an inverter and not a rotating generator. Battery,
>wind, and solar will sync to the grid in tens of milliseconds and
>therefore can go rapidly on and off line.
>
>"About 25% of U.S. power plants can start up within an hour"
><https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=45956>

On 2/18/2024 3:17 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> This morning on TV they showed the PG&E power map and here on an early morning low power usage morning, there were 8 neighborhoods that had power outages and no guesses as to when power would be returned.

Power companies never publish when power will be restored for unplanned
outages.

>
> When I said that this was a problem for EV's I was guffawed by Flunky, Liebermann and Krygowski who said it couldn't be done.

What couldn't be done? Getting power back to residential neighborhoods
has something do with EV's?

>
> The fact is that we are rapidly LOSING generation capacity such as the Oregon and Washington state rivers removing their river dams and the capacity to generate their own electricity and so buying it from California.

Probably not going to happen in your lifetime:
https://news.yahoo.com/biden-administration-puts-off-dam-030100786.html

>
> Now certainly I worry about the Salmon runs being greatly reduced by the damming of the rivers. But why would they remove generation capacity and then proclaim EV's as the new savior of the world?

No one says EVs are going to save the planet.

> This means that electricity has to travel FAR further and hence lose more to resistance and transmission loses.
Only if they don't replace the resource, which according to the
published agreements they are planning to do before they breach the dams.

>
> I really do like the idea of EV's because of the simplicity of the drive train but it is impractical to actually convert over if there is NO excess capacity to charge EV's.

Only if everyone were to convert to EVs overnight. The projected growth
of EV sales is well within the capacity of the power grid for a long
time to come.

> This aside from the fact that the battery technology is still very dangerous.

ignorant fear mongering.

> We continue to hear of better batteries from this manufacturer or that but we have yet to actually see them and the lack of excess charging capacity remains.

Solid-state and sodium batteries are already here, it's a matter of
economy-of-scale.

On Sun Feb 18 14:33:53 2024 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 22:04:04 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I?m told that?s one of the issues? With coal and similar power stations
> >they take a while to restart and shut down so the trend is to keep them on
> >even if not needed.
>
> Yes, that's very true but is not a huge problem unless the system is
> running at capacity, as is common during a heat wave.
>
> "About 25% of U.S. power plants can start up within an hour"
> <https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=45956>
>
> Delays in cold starting a generation plant can happen with any type of
> generation. Even a nuclear powered steam turbine requires time. The
> problem is that the generator has to synchronized to the grid
> frequency (50/60Hz), voltage and phase.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronization_(alternating_current)>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchroscope>
> Exceptions are battery banks like a Tesla PowerWall and various
> monster grid battery storage stations:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_storage_power_station>
> along with wind and solar generation, which like the battery bank are
> drive the grid with an inverter and not a rotating generator. Battery,
> wind, and solar will sync to the grid in tens of milliseconds and
> therefore can go rapidly on and off line.
>
> "About 25% of U.S. power plants can start up within an hour"
> <https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=45956>
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-25

Again you continue talking about things you don't understand. Why is that? Even in the Altamont Pass there are VERY few location in which to place windmills so that they generate power. And when there isn't any wind, you have to power the windmills so that they continue at a certain velocity because their size and shape prevents them being started from the wind itself. They also are an environmental catastrophe killing the huge flocks of bats that are insectivores and birds which are unable to judge blade speed.

Solar farms BARELY work on a sunny day at this latitude and the expensive ground beneath them is dead.

And to make matters worse, BECAUSE wind and solar are unreliable you STILL have to have the generation powers that the solar and wind power would replace on the occasional perfect day.

Why are you ALWAYS the thoughtless expert citing propaganda outlets for companies that build windmills or solar farms? Liebermann, there is a reason that you couldn't make a living as an electronics engineer even with your vaunted degree. You cannot think for yourself. All of your mind is placed only on proving me wrong no matter how right I am.

On 2/19/2024 12:24 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Again you continue talking about things you don't understand. Why is that? Even in the Altamont Pass there are VERY few location in which to place windmills so that they generate power. And when there isn't any wind, you have to power the windmills so that they continue at a certain velocity because their size and shape prevents them being started from the wind itself. They also are an environmental catastrophe killing the huge flocks of bats that are insectivores and birds which are unable to judge blade speed.
>
> Solar farms BARELY work on a sunny day at this latitude and the expensive ground beneath them is dead.
>
> And to make matters worse, BECAUSE wind and solar are unreliable you STILL have to have the generation powers that the solar and wind power would replace on the occasional perfect day.

Wow. SMH

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 17:24:40 GMT, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Sun Feb 18 14:33:53 2024 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 22:04:04 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I?m told that?s one of the issues? With coal and similar power stations
>> >they take a while to restart and shut down so the trend is to keep them on
>> >even if not needed.
>>
>> Yes, that's very true but is not a huge problem unless the system is
>> running at capacity, as is common during a heat wave.
>>
>> "About 25% of U.S. power plants can start up within an hour"
>> <https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=45956>
>>
>> Delays in cold starting a generation plant can happen with any type of
>> generation. Even a nuclear powered steam turbine requires time. The
>> problem is that the generator has to synchronized to the grid
>> frequency (50/60Hz), voltage and phase.
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronization_(alternating_current)>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchroscope>
>> Exceptions are battery banks like a Tesla PowerWall and various
>> monster grid battery storage stations:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_storage_power_station>
>> along with wind and solar generation, which like the battery bank are
>> drive the grid with an inverter and not a rotating generator. Battery,
>> wind, and solar will sync to the grid in tens of milliseconds and
>> therefore can go rapidly on and off line.
>>
>> "About 25% of U.S. power plants can start up within an hour"
>> <https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=45956>

>Again you continue talking about things you don't understand. Why is that?

Because Roger asked a good question and I knew something about the
topic. There seems to be a shortage of good questions in RBT.

>Even in the Altamont Pass there are VERY few location in which to place windmills so that they generate power. And when there isn't any wind, you have to power the windmills so that they continue at a certain velocity because their size and shape prevents them being started from the wind itself.

<http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/supply.html#section-renewables-trend>
3,000 MegaWatts produced today in the CAISO service areas (mostly
California). Map:
<https://drive.tiny.cloud/1/8cadf6pkwkhsiz9mruuj1hgybj2xd7ww2v1as8ktymfewkug/37700802-3011-4cd5-8f48-44a9543e8db4>
At about $0.20/kWh wholesale rate, that would be $600 million/hour in
revenue for the utilities from wind power. Got any more brilliant
judgments?

>They also are an environmental catastrophe killing the huge flocks of bats that are insectivores and birds which are unable to judge blade speed.

Got a reference with numbers and photos of dead birds piled up under a
wind turbine? I'm lazy today and don't want to waste time on your
claims. It's easy enough to find a very wide range of numbers. I
couldn't find any massive piles of dead birds or bats on wind farms.
As I recall, an estimated 2.4 million birds were killed by cats each
year.

>Solar farms BARELY work on a sunny day at this latitude and the expensive ground beneath them is dead.

What does that have to do with the original question (startup time)?
You seem to be having problems focusing on the topic under discussion.
There are articles available on how to focus you mind.

>And to make matters worse, BECAUSE wind and solar are unreliable you STILL have to have the generation powers that the solar and wind power would replace on the occasional perfect day.

That's true. That's why we have a power grid and grid storage. If
there's insufficient wind or solar in one part of the country, the
utility imports power from other sources.

>Why are you ALWAYS the thoughtless expert citing propaganda outlets for companies that build windmills or solar farms?

Gosh, I didn't know that public utility performance statistics,
government studies and industry expert opinions are propaganda. Even
if they were propaganda, they're much better than your incurable habit
of failing to cite anything. Try including a few citations,
references and corroborating links along with your amazing facts etc.

>Liebermann, there is a reason that you couldn't make a living as an electronics engineer even with your vaunted degree. You cannot think for yourself.

Is there a reason you persist in making the accusation repeatedly,
when I've answered it in detail in the past? Perhaps you don't
remember. Here's my online resume, which might jog your failing
memory:
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-liebermann-151823/details/experience/>

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting
different results."

>All of your mind is placed only on proving me wrong no matter how right I am.

Far right? I don't think there's any question that you support far
right politics. I don't see any need for me to prove it to you.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Monday, February 19, 2024 at 10:41:23 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/19/2024 12:24 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> > Again you continue talking about things you don't understand. Why is that? Even in the Altamont Pass there are VERY few location in which to place windmills so that they generate power. And when there isn't any wind, you have to power the windmills so that they continue at a certain velocity because their size and shape prevents them being started from the wind itself. They also are an environmental catastrophe killing the huge flocks of bats that are insectivores and birds which are unable to judge blade speed.
> >
> > Solar farms BARELY work on a sunny day at this latitude and the expensive ground beneath them is dead.
> >
> > And to make matters worse, BECAUSE wind and solar are unreliable you STILL have to have the generation powers that the solar and wind power would replace on the occasional perfect day.
> Wow. SMH
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Frank, this is a simple problem. If you have a power source that is intermittent or even dangerous (windmill blades break and are strong enough to kill people passing on the adjacent main freeway) AND you are already running very close to your limit, you HAVE to have fossil fuel supplies that can take up the slack in the rare non-perfect day. So why are you shaking your head? Is that something that you don't understand? If you buy windmills or solar farms you are then FORCED to make fossil fuel plants that replace that power for what turns out to be half of the year.

Is this something you cannot understand?

On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 09:03:36 -0500, zen cycle
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On 2/18/2024 3:17 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> This morning on TV they showed the PG&E power map and here on an early morning low power usage morning, there were 8 neighborhoods that had power outages and no guesses as to when power would be returned.

You need a need a working computer, tablet or smartphone to see the
outages on the map. Your TV is not interactive.

>Power companies never publish when power will be restored for unplanned
>outages.

PG&E does, or at least tried to do so. If you go to their outage map:
https://pgealerts.alerts.pge.com/outage-tools/outage-map/
and click on any outage, you will get a vague explanation of what
caused the outage, when a crew might be dispatched to repair the
damage, and the approximate time that power will be restored. As the
length of the outage becomes longer, the guess at to when the power
will be restored increases in accuracy. I can also receive email,
text messages and voicemail with the same information at irregular
intervals. There's plenty of room for improvement with the service,
but PG&E doesn't seem to be interested in upgrading the service. For
example, the maps are atrocious, there is an intentional 15 to 30
minute delay on posting updates to the outage map, and the server
seems to grind to a halt during events that create high usage.

As an added bonus, my cable data provider, Comcast/Xfinity has a
similar online map.
<https://www.xfinity.com/support/statusmap>
(You will need a valid service address to see the map)
It also provides me with erratic estimates of when internet service
would be restored via email, text messages or voicemail.
Interestingly, the time to restore power is more accurate than PG&E
because PG&E does not want to disappoint customers if they fail to
meet their predictions. Therefore, PG&E usually adds a few hours to
the time. Comcast/Xfinity hasn't learned to do that yet.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Monday, February 19, 2024 at 11:58:47 AM UTC-8, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 17:24:40 GMT, Tom Kunich <cycl...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >On Sun Feb 18 14:33:53 2024 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 22:04:04 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I?m told that?s one of the issues? With coal and similar power stations
> >> >they take a while to restart and shut down so the trend is to keep them on
> >> >even if not needed.
> >>
> >> Yes, that's very true but is not a huge problem unless the system is
> >> running at capacity, as is common during a heat wave.
> >>
> >> "About 25% of U.S. power plants can start up within an hour"
> >> <https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=45956>
> >>
> >> Delays in cold starting a generation plant can happen with any type of
> >> generation. Even a nuclear powered steam turbine requires time. The
> >> problem is that the generator has to synchronized to the grid
> >> frequency (50/60Hz), voltage and phase.
> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronization_(alternating_current)>
> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchroscope>
> >> Exceptions are battery banks like a Tesla PowerWall and various
> >> monster grid battery storage stations:
> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_storage_power_station>
> >> along with wind and solar generation, which like the battery bank are
> >> drive the grid with an inverter and not a rotating generator. Battery,
> >> wind, and solar will sync to the grid in tens of milliseconds and
> >> therefore can go rapidly on and off line.
> >>
> >> "About 25% of U.S. power plants can start up within an hour"
> >> <https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=45956>
> >Again you continue talking about things you don't understand. Why is that?
> Because Roger asked a good question and I knew something about the
> topic. There seems to be a shortage of good questions in RBT.
> >Even in the Altamont Pass there are VERY few location in which to place windmills so that they generate power. And when there isn't any wind, you have to power the windmills so that they continue at a certain velocity because their size and shape prevents them being started from the wind itself.
> <http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/supply.html#section-renewables-trend>
> 3,000 MegaWatts produced today in the CAISO service areas (mostly
> California). Map:
> <https://drive.tiny.cloud/1/8cadf6pkwkhsiz9mruuj1hgybj2xd7ww2v1as8ktymfewkug/37700802-3011-4cd5-8f48-44a9543e8db4>
> At about $0.20/kWh wholesale rate, that would be $600 million/hour in
> revenue for the utilities from wind power. Got any more brilliant
> judgments?
> >They also are an environmental catastrophe killing the huge flocks of bats that are insectivores and birds which are unable to judge blade speed.
> Got a reference with numbers and photos of dead birds piled up under a
> wind turbine? I'm lazy today and don't want to waste time on your
> claims. It's easy enough to find a very wide range of numbers. I
> couldn't find any massive piles of dead birds or bats on wind farms.
> As I recall, an estimated 2.4 million birds were killed by cats each
> year.
> >Solar farms BARELY work on a sunny day at this latitude and the expensive ground beneath them is dead.
> What does that have to do with the original question (startup time)?
> You seem to be having problems focusing on the topic under discussion.
> There are articles available on how to focus you mind.
> >And to make matters worse, BECAUSE wind and solar are unreliable you STILL have to have the generation powers that the solar and wind power would replace on the occasional perfect day.
> That's true. That's why we have a power grid and grid storage. If
> there's insufficient wind or solar in one part of the country, the
> utility imports power from other sources.
> >Why are you ALWAYS the thoughtless expert citing propaganda outlets for companies that build windmills or solar farms?
> Gosh, I didn't know that public utility performance statistics,
> government studies and industry expert opinions are propaganda. Even
> if they were propaganda, they're much better than your incurable habit
> of failing to cite anything. Try including a few citations,
> references and corroborating links along with your amazing facts etc.
> >Liebermann, there is a reason that you couldn't make a living as an electronics engineer even with your vaunted degree. You cannot think for yourself.
> Is there a reason you persist in making the accusation repeatedly,
> when I've answered it in detail in the past? Perhaps you don't
> remember. Here's my online resume, which might jog your failing
> memory:
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-liebermann-151823/details/experience/>
>
> "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting
> different results."
> >All of your mind is placed only on proving me wrong no matter how right I am.
> Far right? I don't think there's any question that you support far
> right politics. I don't see any need for me to prove it to you.
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Why can't you stop with your ignorance? PG&E sells to 5.6 million customers.. Even if you actually believe in the Solar output it is still only 2 WATT/HOURS per customer. Where is your ability to actually think? And you HAVE to back that up for the 3/4 a year when the same solar farm produced nothing.. Can't you even think?

On 2/19/2024 1:58 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 17:24:40 GMT, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun Feb 18 14:33:53 2024 Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 22:04:04 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I?m told that?s one of the issues? With coal and similar power stations
>>>> they take a while to restart and shut down so the trend is to keep them on
>>>> even if not needed.
>>>
>>> Yes, that's very true but is not a huge problem unless the system is
>>> running at capacity, as is common during a heat wave.
>>>
>>> "About 25% of U.S. power plants can start up within an hour"
>>> <https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=45956>
>>>
>>> Delays in cold starting a generation plant can happen with any type of
>>> generation. Even a nuclear powered steam turbine requires time. The
>>> problem is that the generator has to synchronized to the grid
>>> frequency (50/60Hz), voltage and phase.
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronization_(alternating_current)>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchroscope>
>>> Exceptions are battery banks like a Tesla PowerWall and various
>>> monster grid battery storage stations:
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_storage_power_station>
>>> along with wind and solar generation, which like the battery bank are
>>> drive the grid with an inverter and not a rotating generator. Battery,
>>> wind, and solar will sync to the grid in tens of milliseconds and
>>> therefore can go rapidly on and off line.
>>>
>>> "About 25% of U.S. power plants can start up within an hour"
>>> <https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=45956>
>
>> Again you continue talking about things you don't understand. Why is that?
>
> Because Roger asked a good question and I knew something about the
> topic. There seems to be a shortage of good questions in RBT.
>
>> Even in the Altamont Pass there are VERY few location in which to place windmills so that they generate power. And when there isn't any wind, you have to power the windmills so that they continue at a certain velocity because their size and shape prevents them being started from the wind itself.
>
> <http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/supply.html#section-renewables-trend>
> 3,000 MegaWatts produced today in the CAISO service areas (mostly
> California). Map:
> <https://drive.tiny.cloud/1/8cadf6pkwkhsiz9mruuj1hgybj2xd7ww2v1as8ktymfewkug/37700802-3011-4cd5-8f48-44a9543e8db4>
> At about $0.20/kWh wholesale rate, that would be $600 million/hour in
> revenue for the utilities from wind power. Got any more brilliant
> judgments?
>
>> They also are an environmental catastrophe killing the huge flocks of bats that are insectivores and birds which are unable to judge blade speed.
>
> Got a reference with numbers and photos of dead birds piled up under a
> wind turbine? I'm lazy today and don't want to waste time on your
> claims. It's easy enough to find a very wide range of numbers. I
> couldn't find any massive piles of dead birds or bats on wind farms.
> As I recall, an estimated 2.4 million birds were killed by cats each
> year.
>
>> Solar farms BARELY work on a sunny day at this latitude and the expensive ground beneath them is dead.
>
> What does that have to do with the original question (startup time)?
> You seem to be having problems focusing on the topic under discussion.
> There are articles available on how to focus you mind.
>
>> And to make matters worse, BECAUSE wind and solar are unreliable you STILL have to have the generation powers that the solar and wind power would replace on the occasional perfect day.
>
> That's true. That's why we have a power grid and grid storage. If
> there's insufficient wind or solar in one part of the country, the
> utility imports power from other sources.
>
>> Why are you ALWAYS the thoughtless expert citing propaganda outlets for companies that build windmills or solar farms?
>
> Gosh, I didn't know that public utility performance statistics,
> government studies and industry expert opinions are propaganda. Even
> if they were propaganda, they're much better than your incurable habit
> of failing to cite anything. Try including a few citations,
> references and corroborating links along with your amazing facts etc.
>
>> Liebermann, there is a reason that you couldn't make a living as an electronics engineer even with your vaunted degree. You cannot think for yourself.
>
> Is there a reason you persist in making the accusation repeatedly,
> when I've answered it in detail in the past? Perhaps you don't
> remember. Here's my online resume, which might jog your failing
> memory:
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-liebermann-151823/details/experience/>
>
> "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting
> different results."
>
>> All of your mind is placed only on proving me wrong no matter how right I am.
>
> Far right? I don't think there's any question that you support far
> right politics. I don't see any need for me to prove it to you.
>
>
>

in re birds:
https://phys.org/news/2023-05-bird-deaths-turbines-species-seasonal.html

https://www.wind-watch.org/documents/wind-energys-impact-on-birds-bats-and-insects/

I have no opinion as humans don't generally eat eagles or
bats. But people who do care about birds and bats are unhappy.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/19/2024 6:03 AM, zen cycle wrote:

<snip>

> Power companies never publish when power will be restored for unplanned
> outages.

They do in my area. It takes a while after the outage occurs for them to
predict when power will be restored because they have to determine the
cause and then dispatch crews. But once they put the estimated time on
their web site it is pretty spot-on, rarely a lot sooner or a lot later.

We've been having stormy weather with high winds and a lot of downed
trees so there have been a lot of outages.

I finally got a little generator a couple of years ago. It's enough to
power the refrigerator, cable modem, and charge a laptop, not much else.
If I have to cook I use a butane powered burner since we have an
electric stove. At least we have hot water because we have a gas water
heater, but the gas furnace won't work without electricity.

On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 14:55:41 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 2/19/2024 1:58 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 17:24:40 GMT, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>> (...)
>>> They also are an environmental catastrophe killing the huge flocks of bats that are insectivores and birds which are unable to judge blade speed.
>>
>> Got a reference with numbers and photos of dead birds piled up under a
>> wind turbine? I'm lazy today and don't want to waste time on your
>> claims. It's easy enough to find a very wide range of numbers. I
>> couldn't find any massive piles of dead birds or bats on wind farms.
>> As I recall, an estimated 2.4 million birds were killed by cats each
>> year.

>in re birds:
>https://phys.org/news/2023-05-bird-deaths-turbines-species-seasonal.html

"The authors analyzed daily carcass counts between 2009 and 2021 for
birds (3,789 in total) and bats (10,291 in total) killed at turbine
sites where specific dates were provided."

That's 3,789 birds in 13 years (assuming from the beginning of 2009 to
the end of 2021) and 10,291 bats over the same time period. That
would be: 291 birds per year and 792 bats per year. That's not very
many. However, those numbers don't show anything about how extensive
the problem might be.

The article is intended to demonstrate that bird and bat strikes
increase dramatically during migratory months. That makes sense as
birds and bats are unlikely to be hit by a wind turbine blade if
they're not flying somewhere. The end result is a method of
predicting months when bird and bat strikes might occur. I like to go
to the original data:

"Seasonal patterns of bird and bat collision fatalities at wind
turbines" (May 10, 2023)
<https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0284778>
"Our objectives in this analysis were to describe patterns in the
seasonal timing of bird and bat fatalities at wind turbines and to
offer insight into risk factors associated with collision fatalities."

If you believe this article somewhere between 200,000 and 700,000
birds are killed by wind turbines every year:
"How Many Birds Are Killed by Wind Turbines?" (Jan 26, 2021)
<https://abcbirds.org/blog21/wind-turbine-mortality/>

>https://www.wind-watch.org/documents/wind-energys-impact-on-birds-bats-and-insects/

I'm going to pass on performing a sanity check on the above article.
<https://www.pestworldforkids.org/pest-info/bug-articles-by-type/how-many-bugs-are-in-the-world/>
"There is an estimated 10 quintillion (10,000,000,000,000,000,000)
bugs on earth."
The potential errors are huge. It's like estimating world bug
populations by counting the number of insects scraped off one's
windshield and multiplying by the number of cars.

>I have no opinion as humans don't generally eat eagles or
>bats. But people who do care about birds and bats are unhappy.

Humans don't eat cats, but humans do have cats which eat about 2.4
million birds per year.

"List of bats by population"
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bats_by_population>
I don't know what controls bat populations.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 2/19/2024 3:09 PM, Tom Kunich wrote his usual nonsense:
> On Monday, February 19, 2024 at 10:41:23 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> Wow. SMH
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> Frank, this is a simple problem. If you have a power source that is intermittent or even dangerous (windmill blades break and are strong enough to kill people passing on the adjacent main freeway) AND you are already running very close to your limit, you HAVE to have fossil fuel supplies that can take up the slack in the rare non-perfect day. So why are you shaking your head?

For one thing, I'm shaking my head right now because I've never read an
account of anyone being injured by a broken wind turbine blade. If you
have, please give links (Hah!) so we can judge how frequently this
imaginary problem becomes real.

As to the rest of your rant, my rough estimate of its accuracy comes
from this thought process: On one hand, we have nations and huge
corporations around the world investing huge fortunes in solar and wind
generation.

On the other hand, we have our usual "world's greatest expert" on every
conceivable topic saying those entities are all wrong. And our
"expert's" track record is truly dismal.
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/19/2024 7:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 14:55:41 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2/19/2024 1:58 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 17:24:40 GMT, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> (...)
>>>> They also are an environmental catastrophe killing the huge flocks of bats that are insectivores and birds which are unable to judge blade speed.
>>>
>>> Got a reference with numbers and photos of dead birds piled up under a
>>> wind turbine? I'm lazy today and don't want to waste time on your
>>> claims. It's easy enough to find a very wide range of numbers. I
>>> couldn't find any massive piles of dead birds or bats on wind farms.
>>> As I recall, an estimated 2.4 million birds were killed by cats each
>>> year.
>
>> in re birds:
>> https://phys.org/news/2023-05-bird-deaths-turbines-species-seasonal.html
>
> "The authors analyzed daily carcass counts between 2009 and 2021 for
> birds (3,789 in total) and bats (10,291 in total) killed at turbine
> sites where specific dates were provided."
>
> That's 3,789 birds in 13 years (assuming from the beginning of 2009 to
> the end of 2021) and 10,291 bats over the same time period. That
> would be: 291 birds per year and 792 bats per year. That's not very
> many. However, those numbers don't show anything about how extensive
> the problem might be.
>
> The article is intended to demonstrate that bird and bat strikes
> increase dramatically during migratory months. That makes sense as
> birds and bats are unlikely to be hit by a wind turbine blade if
> they're not flying somewhere. The end result is a method of
> predicting months when bird and bat strikes might occur. I like to go
> to the original data:
>
> "Seasonal patterns of bird and bat collision fatalities at wind
> turbines" (May 10, 2023)
> <https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0284778>
> "Our objectives in this analysis were to describe patterns in the
> seasonal timing of bird and bat fatalities at wind turbines and to
> offer insight into risk factors associated with collision fatalities."
>
> If you believe this article somewhere between 200,000 and 700,000
> birds are killed by wind turbines every year:
> "How Many Birds Are Killed by Wind Turbines?" (Jan 26, 2021)
> <https://abcbirds.org/blog21/wind-turbine-mortality/>
>
>> https://www.wind-watch.org/documents/wind-energys-impact-on-birds-bats-and-insects/
>
> I'm going to pass on performing a sanity check on the above article.
> <https://www.pestworldforkids.org/pest-info/bug-articles-by-type/how-many-bugs-are-in-the-world/>
> "There is an estimated 10 quintillion (10,000,000,000,000,000,000)
> bugs on earth."
> The potential errors are huge. It's like estimating world bug
> populations by counting the number of insects scraped off one's
> windshield and multiplying by the number of cars.
>
>> I have no opinion as humans don't generally eat eagles or
>> bats. But people who do care about birds and bats are unhappy.
>
> Humans don't eat cats, but humans do have cats which eat about 2.4
> million birds per year.
>
> "List of bats by population"
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bats_by_population>
> I don't know what controls bat populations.

I know there are people concerned about bird and bat fatalities by wind
turbines. Despite my love of both birds and bats, I'm not very worried,
for several reasons.

One reason is context, or comparisons. If someone says "These turbines
killed 4000 birds per year," my question is "How do other factors
compare?" And there are many other factors.

For example, there have been several articles in the public press lately
on birds killed by flying into skyscrapers, often at night. For that
reason, there are calls to have skyscraper lights turned off as soon as
possible. How do skyscraper deaths compare with turbine deaths?

And a good friend of mine (a biologist) published a research paper many
years ago regarding migratory bird deaths due to radio and TV towers. He
and his assistants spent lots of time harvesting bird corpses from the
ground beneath some local tall towers. How do tower deaths compare with
turbine deaths?

Then there are automobile deaths. I love raptors, and I hated it when my
car killed a Red Tailed Hawk as we drove along a rural freeway. I've hit
several other birds that I remember. Heck, I was riding bikes with a
friend when his bike hit a small bird. Turned out it was only stunned;
but how do motor vehicle bird deaths compare with turbine deaths?

But beyond that: I think turbines probably add to the lifespan of many
birds, since each turbine means somewhat less exhaust from a coal
burning power plant. I wouldn't be surprised if the bird life benefits
of a turbine exceeded the detriments.

I guess we each get to choose which problem to wring our hands over. But
it seems suspicious to me that right wingers are among those crying
"Poor, poor birds!" I think they really mean "I'm heavily invested in
oil companies."

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, February 19, 2024 at 3:25:23 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 09:03:36 -0500, zen cycle
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On 2/18/2024 3:17 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> This morning on TV they showed the PG&E power map and here on an early morning low power usage morning, there were 8 neighborhoods that had power outages and no guesses as to when power would be returned.
> You need a need a working computer, tablet or smartphone to see the
> outages on the map. Your TV is not interactive.
> >Power companies never publish when power will be restored for unplanned
> >outages.
> PG&E does, or at least tried to do so. If you go to their outage map:
> https://pgealerts.alerts.pge.com/outage-tools/outage-map/
> and click on any outage, you will get a vague explanation of what
> caused the outage, when a crew might be dispatched to repair the
> damage, and the approximate time that power will be restored. As the
> length of the outage becomes longer, the guess at to when the power
> will be restored increases in accuracy. I can also receive email,
> text messages and voicemail with the same information at irregular
> intervals.

I stand corrected. I see National Grid has a similar interactive site for my area. I can't comment on the accuracy, but it's there nonetheless.

There's plenty of room for improvement with the service,
> but PG&E doesn't seem to be interested in upgrading the service. For
> example, the maps are atrocious, there is an intentional 15 to 30
> minute delay on posting updates to the outage map, and the server
> seems to grind to a halt during events that create high usage.
>
> As an added bonus, my cable data provider, Comcast/Xfinity has a
> similar online map.
> <https://www.xfinity.com/support/statusmap>
> (You will need a valid service address to see the map)
> It also provides me with erratic estimates of when internet service
> would be restored via email, text messages or voicemail.
> Interestingly, the time to restore power is more accurate than PG&E
> because PG&E does not want to disappoint customers if they fail to
> meet their predictions. Therefore, PG&E usually adds a few hours to
> the time. Comcast/Xfinity hasn't learned to do that yet.
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Monday, February 19, 2024 at 4:03:31 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> On 2/19/2024 6:03 AM, zen cycle wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > Power companies never publish when power will be restored for unplanned
> > outages.
> They do in my area. It takes a while after the outage occurs for them to
> predict when power will be restored because they have to determine the
> cause and then dispatch crews. But once they put the estimated time on
> their web site it is pretty spot-on, rarely a lot sooner or a lot later.

I stand corrected. I see National Grid has a similar interactive site for my area. I can't comment on the accuracy, but it's there nonetheless.

>
> We've been having stormy weather with high winds and a lot of downed
> trees so there have been a lot of outages.
>
> I finally got a little generator a couple of years ago. It's enough to
> power the refrigerator, cable modem, and charge a laptop, not much else.
> If I have to cook I use a butane powered burner since we have an
> electric stove. At least we have hot water because we have a gas water
> heater, but the gas furnace won't work without electricity.

I patched male AC plug in line with my furnace on a knife switch. When the power goes out I can plug it into my portable generator (2KW) with an extension cord and get the furnace running. I've only had to use it three times in the 22 years I've lived here, but it came in handy the one time the power was out overnight. We had our neighbors spend the night that night. We have a gas stove as well, so we were able to cook dinner for our family and theirs.

On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 21:39:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/19/2024 3:09 PM, Tom Kunich wrote his usual nonsense:
>> On Monday, February 19, 2024 at 10:41:23?AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>> Wow. SMH
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>> Frank, this is a simple problem. If you have a power source that is intermittent or even dangerous (windmill blades break and are strong enough to kill people passing on the adjacent main freeway) AND you are already running very close to your limit, you HAVE to have fossil fuel supplies that can take up the slack in the rare non-perfect day. So why are you shaking your head?
>
>For one thing, I'm shaking my head right now because I've never read an
>account of anyone being injured by a broken wind turbine blade. If you
>have, please give links (Hah!) so we can judge how frequently this
>imaginary problem becomes real.
>
>As to the rest of your rant, my rough estimate of its accuracy comes
>from this thought process: On one hand, we have nations and huge
>corporations around the world investing huge fortunes in solar and wind
>generation.
>
>On the other hand, we have our usual "world's greatest expert" on every
>conceivable topic saying those entities are all wrong. And our
>"expert's" track record is truly dismal.
>- Frank Krygowski

Speaking of truly dismal records, had the leftist loons not destroyed
the nuclear option we wouldn't need those disgusting eyesores.

On 2/20/2024 1:55 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 21:39:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/19/2024 3:09 PM, Tom Kunich wrote his usual nonsense:
>>> On Monday, February 19, 2024 at 10:41:23?AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Wow. SMH
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> Frank, this is a simple problem. If you have a power source that is intermittent or even dangerous (windmill blades break and are strong enough to kill people passing on the adjacent main freeway) AND you are already running very close to your limit, you HAVE to have fossil fuel supplies that can take up the slack in the rare non-perfect day. So why are you shaking your head?
>>
>> For one thing, I'm shaking my head right now because I've never read an
>> account of anyone being injured by a broken wind turbine blade. If you
>> have, please give links (Hah!) so we can judge how frequently this
>> imaginary problem becomes real.
>>
>> As to the rest of your rant, my rough estimate of its accuracy comes
>>from this thought process: On one hand, we have nations and huge
>> corporations around the world investing huge fortunes in solar and wind
>> generation.
>>
>> On the other hand, we have our usual "world's greatest expert" on every
>> conceivable topic saying those entities are all wrong. And our
>> "expert's" track record is truly dismal.
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
>
> Speaking of truly dismal records, had the leftist loons not destroyed
> the nuclear option we wouldn't need those disgusting eyesores.
+1
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 13:03:27 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 2/19/2024 6:03 AM, zen cycle wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Power companies never publish when power will be restored for unplanned
>> outages.
>
>They do in my area. It takes a while after the outage occurs for them to
>predict when power will be restored because they have to determine the
>cause and then dispatch crews. But once they put the estimated time on
>their web site it is pretty spot-on, rarely a lot sooner or a lot later.
>
>We've been having stormy weather with high winds and a lot of downed
>trees so there have been a lot of outages.
>
>I finally got a little generator a couple of years ago. It's enough to
>power the refrigerator, cable modem, and charge a laptop, not much else.
>If I have to cook I use a butane powered burner since we have an
>electric stove. At least we have hot water because we have a gas water
>heater, but the gas furnace won't work without electricity.

A bit of generator humor for you. During the Feb 4 to Feb 8 storm, we
lost power in our neighborhood. Of course, a neighbors Firman
dual-fuel generator (from Costco) refused to start. They called me on
my cell phone (AT&T was out) and asked me to take a look at it. I ran
the usual tests and found nothing wrong. It could spray a little carb
cleaner into the carburetor and it would run for a few seconds.
Therefore, the engine was probably ok. However, I had to use the rope
pull start for testing because the starter battery was absent.
Eventually, I dragged over a 5 gal propane tank. The generator
started and ran normally. Huh?

It seems this model generator requires battery power to operate the
anti-backfire solenoid valve (and maybe some other electrical devices)
in order to start. It's the cylindrical gizmo with 2 wires attached
to the bottom of the carburetor fuel bowl. When the engine runs, the
valve is open which allows fuel to enter the fuel bowl. When the
engine is stopped, the solenoid closes a valve which blocks the flow
of fuel, which quickly stops the engine. Without a charged battery,
the valve can't open, so there's no fuel available for starting.
There's no manual override. I carried over a lawn tractor battery and
added some extension battery wires. The generator started and ran
normally. Nothing in the manual or online that mentions that it needs
a battery in order to start on gasoline.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 2/22/2024 1:11 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 13:03:27 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/19/2024 6:03 AM, zen cycle wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Power companies never publish when power will be restored for unplanned
>>> outages.
>>
>> They do in my area. It takes a while after the outage occurs for them to
>> predict when power will be restored because they have to determine the
>> cause and then dispatch crews. But once they put the estimated time on
>> their web site it is pretty spot-on, rarely a lot sooner or a lot later.
>>
>> We've been having stormy weather with high winds and a lot of downed
>> trees so there have been a lot of outages.
>>
>> I finally got a little generator a couple of years ago. It's enough to
>> power the refrigerator, cable modem, and charge a laptop, not much else.
>> If I have to cook I use a butane powered burner since we have an
>> electric stove. At least we have hot water because we have a gas water
>> heater, but the gas furnace won't work without electricity.
>
> A bit of generator humor for you. During the Feb 4 to Feb 8 storm, we
> lost power in our neighborhood. Of course, a neighbors Firman
> dual-fuel generator (from Costco) refused to start. They called me on
> my cell phone (AT&T was out) and asked me to take a look at it. I ran
> the usual tests and found nothing wrong. It could spray a little carb
> cleaner into the carburetor and it would run for a few seconds.
> Therefore, the engine was probably ok. However, I had to use the rope
> pull start for testing because the starter battery was absent.
> Eventually, I dragged over a 5 gal propane tank. The generator
> started and ran normally. Huh?
>
> It seems this model generator requires battery power to operate the
> anti-backfire solenoid valve (and maybe some other electrical devices)
> in order to start. It's the cylindrical gizmo with 2 wires attached
> to the bottom of the carburetor fuel bowl. When the engine runs, the
> valve is open which allows fuel to enter the fuel bowl. When the
> engine is stopped, the solenoid closes a valve which blocks the flow
> of fuel, which quickly stops the engine. Without a charged battery,
> the valve can't open, so there's no fuel available for starting.
> There's no manual override. I carried over a lawn tractor battery and
> added some extension battery wires. The generator started and ran
> normally. Nothing in the manual or online that mentions that it needs
> a battery in order to start on gasoline.
>
>
>

Such is modern equipment design, "We improved it until it
didn't work". That goes exponential on autos and appliances.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/22/2024 2:11 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> It seems this model generator requires battery power to operate the
> anti-backfire solenoid valve (and maybe some other electrical devices)
> in order to start. It's the cylindrical gizmo with 2 wires attached
> to the bottom of the carburetor fuel bowl.

So that's what that solenoid does!

I somehow got the job of diagnosing and fixing (for free) the riding
lawn mower that the guy across the street used to use. After some
mysterious failures, I realized the connector to that solenoid was
cracked, letting the wires lose contact. I just used electrical tape to
hold things in place, but I always wondered about the connector's purpose.

I also installed drive belts that broke, removed the engine when its
compression release failed, etc. Finally he said "Do you want to buy it
for $100?" So I now own my first riding mower.

--
- Frank Krygowski