On 4/22/2024 3:05 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Sun, 21 Apr 2024 20:09:08 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>
>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> On 4/21/2024 6:52 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>> Am Thu, 18 Apr 2024 21:04:42 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>>
>>>>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>>> ...
> ...
>
>>>> Adding a strong motor to a bicycle, as it is done with e-bikes limited
>>>> to 25 km/h, eliminates most of that. Arguing "but this still is
>>>> cycling!!" is like selling electric wheelchairs to healthy people and
>>>> pointing to the Paralympics to justify it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> "looking at what people do who _are_ into ebikes I conclude
>>> that people are even more lazy..."
>>>
>>> That's what I see as well. Your post is well considered as
>>> an observer of the actual situation now.
>>
>> If it’s using a bike for utility which most of the hire bikes are nowadays
>> I really don’t see the problem?
>
> Obviously. That doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist, though. The
> relevant fact is, cycling for utitity purposes creates strength and
> fitness too, in the long run. It isn't the intent which counts, it's the
> effect.
>
>>
>> Road/Gravel seems folks are rather missing the point with E bikes or they
>> essentially become mopeds, with MTB while I don’t own one I do get why
>> folks do like them, are close enough and for folks sessioning stuff ie they
>> are riding the trails down, and then a fire road climb or get a lift up, a
>> E bike allows them to do more and so on, it’s very much not my type of
>> riding, but I can absolutely see why folks do like them, plus wanting to do
>> longer rides and so on.
>
> Oh, I can absolutely understand why people like e-bikes, sugar, opioids,
> or driving their car around the block, when just crossing the street and
> walking to the other side would do*). It is addictive and they develop
> a physical dependenciy of various degrees. How often have I heard
> healthy colleagues half my current age say "that's far too steep" when
> talking about that ridiculously short and easy climb to the campus. 60 m
> altitude gain over 1 km, varying from 2 % up to a few meters with 7 %.
>
> When the weather outlook is unstable, I'm doing a local hill with 50 m
> altitude gain and continuous twelve percent grade just for fun and
> excercise - twelve times in a row. Two hours, 28 km, 845 m altitude
> gain.
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20231031/Z1profil.PNG>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20220718/20220718_00003.jpg>
>
> Being able to do that doesn't come easy, when you haven't used the
> muscles needed for cycling for years, that's for sure. Muscles atrophy
> very quickly, as anybody knows who had to give up for a few months or
> more, because of an accident or an illness.
>
> But it comes essentially for free, when regularely riding to work or
> other utility purposes and _not_ giving up because a few hundred meters
> with, say, six percent seem impossible to handle on a bicycle.
>
>
> *) Decades ago, when your children where still young schoolchildren, a
> family friend with children and we visited some U.S. countries along the
> east cost, by driving north, visiting Cape Cod, Boston, Salem and some
> other places, on the way. In Boston, we stayed at a small hotel for a
> day, having a strange experience when going for breakfast the following
> morning. "Where is everybody", one of us asked. No hotel guest in sight,
> empty parking lot. Well, we crossed the road on foot, to check some
> shops offering snacks over there, but finally settled for a McDonalds on
> that side, after walking perhaps another 100 m - and met many of the
> hotel guests there, including their cars in the parking lot. Driving
> one km to the next crossing, making an U-turn, driving back another km
> and parking in 100 m distance from the hotel obviously was easier for
> them. I doubt that it was faster, though.
>

Further to your Boston anecdote, out here in rural USA
people really do drive large pickups a few hundred feet from
the garage to the mailbox and back. This wouldn't be
noticeable when driving past but on a bicycle the entire
cycle is obvious.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Am Sun, 21 Apr 2024 20:09:08 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>
>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> On 4/21/2024 6:52 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>> Am Thu, 18 Apr 2024 21:04:42 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>>
>>>>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>>> ...
> ...
>
>>>> Adding a strong motor to a bicycle, as it is done with e-bikes limited
>>>> to 25 km/h, eliminates most of that. Arguing "but this still is
>>>> cycling!!" is like selling electric wheelchairs to healthy people and
>>>> pointing to the Paralympics to justify it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> "looking at what people do who _are_ into ebikes I conclude
>>> that people are even more lazy..."
>>>
>>> That's what I see as well. Your post is well considered as
>>> an observer of the actual situation now.
>>
>> If it’s using a bike for utility which most of the hire bikes are nowadays
>> I really don’t see the problem?
>
> Obviously. That doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist, though. The
> relevant fact is, cycling for utitity purposes creates strength and
> fitness too, in the long run. It isn't the intent which counts, it's the
> effect.
>
>>
>> Road/Gravel seems folks are rather missing the point with E bikes or they
>> essentially become mopeds, with MTB while I don’t own one I do get why
>> folks do like them, are close enough and for folks sessioning stuff ie they
>> are riding the trails down, and then a fire road climb or get a lift up, a
>> E bike allows them to do more and so on, it’s very much not my type of
>> riding, but I can absolutely see why folks do like them, plus wanting to do
>> longer rides and so on.
>
> Oh, I can absolutely understand why people like e-bikes, sugar, opioids,
> or driving their car around the block, when just crossing the street and
> walking to the other side would do*). It is addictive and they develop
> a physical dependenciy of various degrees. How often have I heard
> healthy colleagues half my current age say "that's far too steep" when
> talking about that ridiculously short and easy climb to the campus. 60 m
> altitude gain over 1 km, varying from 2 % up to a few meters with 7 %.
>
Not everyone being fit is an aim, particularly utility riders, and
certainly a sizeable number of MTBer it’s all about the downs, not that
racers aren’t very fit, and strong.

Ie folks are riding for utility or enjoyment the degree of exercise they
get from it really isn’t a thing. Nor is it really seem to be bad thing, ie
more folks doing some activities than less doing more.

> When the weather outlook is unstable, I'm doing a local hill with 50 m
> altitude gain and continuous twelve percent grade just for fun and
> excercise - twelve times in a row. Two hours, 28 km, 845 m altitude
> gain.
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20231031/Z1profil.PNG>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20220718/20220718_00003.jpg>
>
> Being able to do that doesn't come easy, when you haven't used the
> muscles needed for cycling for years, that's for sure. Muscles atrophy
> very quickly, as anybody knows who had to give up for a few months or
> more, because of an accident or an illness.

Seems to take as long as the illness I was off the bike for number of
months and was unwell for year or so took over a year to be as fit as I had
been.
>
> But it comes essentially for free, when regularely riding to work or
> other utility purposes and _not_ giving up because a few hundred meters
> with, say, six percent seem impossible to handle on a bicycle.
>
>
> *) Decades ago, when your children where still young schoolchildren, a
> family friend with children and we visited some U.S. countries along the
> east cost, by driving north, visiting Cape Cod, Boston, Salem and some
> other places, on the way. In Boston, we stayed at a small hotel for a
> day, having a strange experience when going for breakfast the following
> morning. "Where is everybody", one of us asked. No hotel guest in sight,
> empty parking lot. Well, we crossed the road on foot, to check some
> shops offering snacks over there, but finally settled for a McDonalds on
> that side, after walking perhaps another 100 m - and met many of the
> hotel guests there, including their cars in the parking lot. Driving
> one km to the next crossing, making an U-turn, driving back another km
> and parking in 100 m distance from the hotel obviously was easier for
> them. I doubt that it was faster, though.
>
That seems to be cultural thing plus the multi lane roads for North America
certainly London folks walk a lot, it’s one of the larger mode shares, much
larger than the black cab for instance that is some folks idea of london
transport.

Roger Merriman

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 4/21/2024 9:07 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 4/21/2024 4:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>
>>> A motor doesn’t make it a motor bike other than the very
>>> narrows of
>>> definitions.
>>
>> From a pure logic standpoint, I think that statement is
>> precisely backwards. A bike with a motor is quite obviously
>> a motor bike. The manufacturers lobbied legislatures very
>> heavily to carve a very narrow exception into the laws, for
>> legal and sales purposes.
>>
>> Which is not to say I totally condemn eBikes. There are
>> legitimate uses for them, and I suspect many of us will
>> someday require them. But they are problematic in several ways.
>>
>> I definitely think the upper speed for power assist is far
>> too high in the U.S. I think eBikes should give no assist
>> above 12 mph.
>>
>
> Without parsing the actual limit, Mr Merriman has a point.
>
> In plain English, a bicycle with assisted power is a 'motor
> bike' but statutorily there's a distinction between 'assist'
> and 'motor vehicle'.

Indeed while a E bike has a motor it’s power out put and weight and how
it’s delivered are quite some distance away from a Motorbike, for example
just commuting into central london as I did last week.

Arriving at the lights with an annoyingly ridden E hire bike and a
motorbike. The Motorbike from experience would easily out accelerate me,
the E bike while faster than say a roadie is comfortably within my ability
to out accelerate and also out pace. They where one of many E bikes that I
passed, I passed no motorcycles they all passed me.

Roger Merriman

On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 21:29:50 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 4/21/2024 9:07 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 4/21/2024 4:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A motor doesn’t make it a motor bike other than the very
>>>> narrows of
>>>> definitions.
>>>
>>> From a pure logic standpoint, I think that statement is
>>> precisely backwards. A bike with a motor is quite obviously
>>> a motor bike. The manufacturers lobbied legislatures very
>>> heavily to carve a very narrow exception into the laws, for
>>> legal and sales purposes.
>>>
>>> Which is not to say I totally condemn eBikes. There are
>>> legitimate uses for them, and I suspect many of us will
>>> someday require them. But they are problematic in several ways.
>>>
>>> I definitely think the upper speed for power assist is far
>>> too high in the U.S. I think eBikes should give no assist
>>> above 12 mph.
>>>
>>
>> Without parsing the actual limit, Mr Merriman has a point.
>>
>> In plain English, a bicycle with assisted power is a 'motor
>> bike' but statutorily there's a distinction between 'assist'
>> and 'motor vehicle'.
>
>Indeed while a E bike has a motor it’s power out put and weight and how
>it’s delivered are quite some distance away from a Motorbike, for example
>just commuting into central london as I did last week.
>
>Arriving at the lights with an annoyingly ridden E hire bike and a
>motorbike. The Motorbike from experience would easily out accelerate me,
>the E bike while faster than say a roadie is comfortably within my ability
>to out accelerate and also out pace. They where one of many E bikes that I
>passed, I passed no motorcycles they all passed me.
>
>Roger Merriman

There's a bigger difference between a Honda 125cc and a Harley
Davidson than between an ebike and the Honda 125cc

On 4/22/2024 8:50 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/22/2024 3:05 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>
>> ... In Boston, we stayed at a small hotel for a
>> day, having a strange experience when going for breakfast the following
>> morning. "Where is everybody", one of us asked. No hotel guest in sight,
>> empty parking lot.  Well, we crossed the road on foot, to check some
>> shops offering snacks over there, but finally settled for a McDonalds on
>> that side, after walking perhaps another 100 m - and met many of the
>> hotel guests there, including their cars in the parking lot.  Driving
>> one km to the next crossing, making an U-turn, driving back another km
>> and parking in 100 m distance from the hotel obviously was easier for
>> them.  I doubt that it was faster, though.

I understand your point and agree. But in one of his early books, Bill
Bryson (an American living in England) talked about visiting America
with his family. He described a similar situation, but in his case it
was impossible for him to safely cross that road. Much of America's
suburbs seems designed to prohibit walking.

> Further to your Boston anecdote, out here in rural USA people really do
> drive large pickups a few hundred feet from the garage to the mailbox
> and back.

We saw that behavior by our friends' neighbor in Charlotte, North
Carolina. Except it was a sedan, not a pickup, and the distance was less
than 50 feet.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/22/2024 8:50 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/22/2024 3:05 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>> Am Sun, 21 Apr 2024 20:09:08 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>
>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>> On 4/21/2024 6:52 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>> Am Thu, 18 Apr 2024 21:04:42 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>>>> ...
>> ...
>>
>>>>> Adding a strong motor to a bicycle, as it is done with e-bikes limited
>>>>> to 25 km/h, eliminates most of that.  Arguing "but this still is
>>>>> cycling!!" is like selling electric wheelchairs to healthy people and
>>>>> pointing to the Paralympics to justify it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "looking at what people do who _are_ into ebikes I conclude
>>>> that people are even more lazy..."
>>>>
>>>> That's what I see as well.  Your post is well considered as
>>>> an observer of the actual situation now.
>>>
>>> If it’s using a bike for utility which most of the hire bikes are
>>> nowadays
>>> I really don’t see the problem?
>>
>> Obviously. That doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist, though. The
>> relevant fact is, cycling for utitity purposes creates strength and
>> fitness too, in the long run. It isn't the intent which counts, it's the
>> effect.
>>
>>>
>>> Road/Gravel seems folks are rather missing the point with E bikes or
>>> they
>>> essentially become mopeds, with MTB while I don’t own one I do get why
>>> folks do like them, are close enough and for folks sessioning stuff
>>> ie they
>>> are riding the trails down, and then a fire road climb or get a lift
>>> up, a
>>> E bike allows them to do more and so on, it’s very much not my type of
>>> riding, but I can absolutely see why folks do like them, plus wanting
>>> to do
>>> longer rides and so on.
>>
>> Oh, I can absolutely understand why people like e-bikes, sugar, opioids,
>> or driving their car around the block, when just crossing the street and
>> walking to the other side would do*).  It is addictive and they develop
>> a physical dependenciy of various degrees.  How often have I heard
>> healthy colleagues half my current age say "that's far too steep" when
>> talking about that ridiculously short and easy climb to the campus. 60 m
>> altitude gain over 1 km, varying from 2 % up to a few meters with 7 %.
>>
>> When the weather outlook is unstable, I'm doing a local hill with 50 m
>> altitude gain and continuous twelve percent grade just for fun and
>> excercise - twelve times in a row. Two hours, 28 km, 845 m altitude
>> gain.
>>
>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20231031/Z1profil.PNG>
>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20220718/20220718_00003.jpg>
>>
>> Being able to do that doesn't come easy, when you haven't used the
>> muscles needed for cycling for years,  that's for sure. Muscles atrophy
>> very quickly, as anybody knows who had to give up for a few months or
>> more, because of an accident or an illness.
>>
>> But it comes essentially for free, when regularely riding to work or
>> other utility purposes and _not_ giving up because a few hundred meters
>> with, say, six percent seem impossible to handle on a bicycle.
>>
>>
>> *) Decades ago, when your children where still young schoolchildren,  a
>> family friend with children and we visited some U.S. countries along the
>> east cost, by driving north, visiting Cape Cod, Boston, Salem and some
>> other places, on the way.  In Boston, we stayed at a small hotel for a
>> day, having a strange experience when going for breakfast the following
>> morning. "Where is everybody", one of us asked. No hotel guest in sight,
>> empty parking lot.  Well, we crossed the road on foot, to check some
>> shops offering snacks over there, but finally settled for a McDonalds on
>> that side, after walking perhaps another 100 m - and met many of the
>> hotel guests there, including their cars in the parking lot.  Driving
>> one km to the next crossing, making an U-turn, driving back another km
>> and parking in 100 m distance from the hotel obviously was easier for
>> them.  I doubt that it was faster, though.
>>
>
> Further to your Boston anecdote, out here in rural USA people really do
> drive large pickups a few hundred feet from the garage to the mailbox
> and back.  This wouldn't be noticeable when driving past but on a
> bicycle the entire cycle is obvious.

further to the suburban Boston anecdotes, during my commutes I lose
count of how many parents I see sitting in their cars, engine running,
with their kid(s) waiting for the school bus - at the end of the driveway.

Am Mon, 22 Apr 2024 21:29:50 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:

>AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 4/21/2024 9:07 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 4/21/2024 4:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A motor doesn’t make it a motor bike other than the very
>>>> narrows of
>>>> definitions.
>>>
>>> From a pure logic standpoint, I think that statement is
>>> precisely backwards. A bike with a motor is quite obviously
>>> a motor bike. The manufacturers lobbied legislatures very
>>> heavily to carve a very narrow exception into the laws, for
>>> legal and sales purposes.
>>>
>>> Which is not to say I totally condemn eBikes. There are
>>> legitimate uses for them, and I suspect many of us will
>>> someday require them. But they are problematic in several ways.
>>>
>>> I definitely think the upper speed for power assist is far
>>> too high in the U.S. I think eBikes should give no assist
>>> above 12 mph.
>>>
>>
>> Without parsing the actual limit, Mr Merriman has a point.

A point that is wrong, and quite easily to disprove, though. No one
doubts that some motorized vehicles have been legalized as bicycles in
some jurisdictions. Actually, that is the very point: that legalization
was and still is a mistake, for various reasons discussed at length.

>>
>> In plain English, a bicycle with assisted power is a 'motor
>> bike' but statutorily there's a distinction between 'assist'
>> and 'motor vehicle'.

Sure. In Germany, for example, the law has been changed between when I
was fifteen and got this motor vehicle as a birthday present:

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/vespa/ciao.jpg>

Two stroke engine, pedal assist, no gears, speed limited to 25 km/h,
even downhill, needing that pedal assist on steep hills.

At that time, this vehicle was handled similar to other low powered
motorcycles, it came in different variants, all regulated. In Germany,
it was available in two variants, one restricted to 25 km/h, without
front suspension and without gears, called "Mofa" (short for
"Motorfahrrrad") the other one restricted to 40 km/h, called Moped. Both
needed a a formal "Betriebserlaubnis" (operation permit), liability
insurance and where age restricted.

Driving a 25 km/h mofa wasn't allowed below the age of fifteen, but it
didn't need a "Führerschein" (driver's license), then. Riding mopeds was
allowed a year later at an age of sixteen, but needed a driver's permit
and required wearing a motorcycle helmet, just mofas do, nowadays.

Both types had pedal assist. While pedal assist was almost pointless for
mopeds, it was quite usefull and sometimes even necessary for mofas like
my Ciao, because it didn't accelerate well at low speed and could't
deliver its full power on steep ascents. It was even worse with the Velo
Solex
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Solex_3800._Ano_1966-1.jpg/1280px-Solex_3800._Ano_1966-1.jpg>
which needed pedaling even on flat ground sometimes, when it was
raining, because of the friction roller. Nobody questioned the fact that
even the Velo Solex is a motor vehicle, at that time. This belief is a
quite recent product of marketing, which couldn't have happened with
gasoline motors and without the ability to gamify an electric motor to
create a very convincing illusion of your own effort.

Nowadays, 25 km/h mofas still exist, with both gasoline and electrical
engines, but now need passing an exam, insurance and obligatory
motorcycle helmets. Nobody buys these anymore, perhaps with the
exception of drunkards who lost their license, because more powerfull
e-bikes are available. E-bikes with motors being able to deliver their
peak power over the full speed range, because of motor characteristics
and gears, legally available even to preschool children and actively
advertized for children as young as eight years.

Im repeating myself here, because I've already explained most of it in a
thread containing my reply to Roger Merriman last year in
<t8dqji191r42pft9pm5fen39roff0h7hr8@4ax.com>, but as it seems, he just
ignores most of the facts contradicting his view.

Google bought and killed Dejanews, so I can't point to that anymore, but
here is my copy, for reference
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/news/up3kki1ef6t6itj3nvjm8g21uv1lahoq0b@4ax.com.txt>

>
>Indeed while a E bike has a motor it’s power out put and weight and how
>it’s delivered are quite some distance away from a Motorbike,

Wrong. It is some distance away from more powerfull motorbikes.

This is a distinctive property of motor vehicles: it isn't the power and
endurance of the person driving the vehicle making the difference, it's
a property of the vehicle. Buy a bigger model with a larger tank, get
more power and more endurance. Even a four year child can drive a car.

<https://www.wlox.com/2024/02/13/mother-charged-after-4-year-old-found-driving-car-court-documents-say/>

It isn't the person driving the motor vehicle that limits its speed,
it's the law, implemented by constructive details of the vehicle, and by
traffic signs and rules. Bicycles essentially don't have such
restrictions, for a reason, in most civilized countries all over the
world. Motor vehicles have.

>for example
>just commuting into central london as I did last week.
>
>Arriving at the lights with an annoyingly ridden E hire bike and a
>motorbike. The Motorbike from experience would easily out accelerate me,
>the E bike while faster than say a roadie is comfortably within my ability
>to out accelerate and also out pace. They where one of many E bikes that I
>passed, I passed no motorcycles they all passed me.

I won't explain the suggested logical error in that statement, again.

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

On 4/22/2024 10:52 PM, zen cycle wrote:
> On 4/22/2024 8:50 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/22/2024 3:05 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>> Am Sun, 21 Apr 2024 20:09:08 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>
>>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>> On 4/21/2024 6:52 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>>> Am Thu, 18 Apr 2024 21:04:42 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>> ...
>>>
>>>>>> Adding a strong motor to a bicycle, as it is done with
>>>>>> e-bikes limited
>>>>>> to 25 km/h, eliminates most of that.  Arguing "but
>>>>>> this still is
>>>>>> cycling!!" is like selling electric wheelchairs to
>>>>>> healthy people and
>>>>>> pointing to the Paralympics to justify it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "looking at what people do who _are_ into ebikes I
>>>>> conclude
>>>>> that people are even more lazy..."
>>>>>
>>>>> That's what I see as well.  Your post is well
>>>>> considered as
>>>>> an observer of the actual situation now.
>>>>
>>>> If it’s using a bike for utility which most of the hire
>>>> bikes are nowadays
>>>> I really don’t see the problem?
>>>
>>> Obviously. That doesn't mean that the problem doesn't
>>> exist, though. The
>>> relevant fact is, cycling for utitity purposes creates
>>> strength and
>>> fitness too, in the long run. It isn't the intent which
>>> counts, it's the
>>> effect.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Road/Gravel seems folks are rather missing the point
>>>> with E bikes or they
>>>> essentially become mopeds, with MTB while I don’t own
>>>> one I do get why
>>>> folks do like them, are close enough and for folks
>>>> sessioning stuff ie they
>>>> are riding the trails down, and then a fire road climb
>>>> or get a lift up, a
>>>> E bike allows them to do more and so on, it’s very much
>>>> not my type of
>>>> riding, but I can absolutely see why folks do like them,
>>>> plus wanting to do
>>>> longer rides and so on.
>>>
>>> Oh, I can absolutely understand why people like e-bikes,
>>> sugar, opioids,
>>> or driving their car around the block, when just crossing
>>> the street and
>>> walking to the other side would do*).  It is addictive
>>> and they develop
>>> a physical dependenciy of various degrees.  How often
>>> have I heard
>>> healthy colleagues half my current age say "that's far
>>> too steep" when
>>> talking about that ridiculously short and easy climb to
>>> the campus. 60 m
>>> altitude gain over 1 km, varying from 2 % up to a few
>>> meters with 7 %.
>>>
>>> When the weather outlook is unstable, I'm doing a local
>>> hill with 50 m
>>> altitude gain and continuous twelve percent grade just
>>> for fun and
>>> excercise - twelve times in a row. Two hours, 28 km, 845
>>> m altitude
>>> gain.
>>>
>>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20231031/Z1profil.PNG>
>>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20220718/20220718_00003.jpg>
>>>
>>> Being able to do that doesn't come easy, when you haven't
>>> used the
>>> muscles needed for cycling for years,  that's for sure.
>>> Muscles atrophy
>>> very quickly, as anybody knows who had to give up for a
>>> few months or
>>> more, because of an accident or an illness.
>>>
>>> But it comes essentially for free, when regularely riding
>>> to work or
>>> other utility purposes and _not_ giving up because a few
>>> hundred meters
>>> with, say, six percent seem impossible to handle on a
>>> bicycle.
>>>
>>>
>>> *) Decades ago, when your children where still young
>>> schoolchildren,  a
>>> family friend with children and we visited some U.S.
>>> countries along the
>>> east cost, by driving north, visiting Cape Cod, Boston,
>>> Salem and some
>>> other places, on the way.  In Boston, we stayed at a
>>> small hotel for a
>>> day, having a strange experience when going for breakfast
>>> the following
>>> morning. "Where is everybody", one of us asked. No hotel
>>> guest in sight,
>>> empty parking lot.  Well, we crossed the road on foot, to
>>> check some
>>> shops offering snacks over there, but finally settled for
>>> a McDonalds on
>>> that side, after walking perhaps another 100 m - and met
>>> many of the
>>> hotel guests there, including their cars in the parking
>>> lot.  Driving
>>> one km to the next crossing, making an U-turn, driving
>>> back another km
>>> and parking in 100 m distance from the hotel obviously
>>> was easier for
>>> them.  I doubt that it was faster, though.
>>>
>>
>> Further to your Boston anecdote, out here in rural USA
>> people really do drive large pickups a few hundred feet
>> from the garage to the mailbox and back.  This wouldn't be
>> noticeable when driving past but on a bicycle the entire
>> cycle is obvious.
>
> further to the suburban Boston anecdotes, during my commutes
> I lose count of how many parents I see sitting in their
> cars, engine running, with their kid(s) waiting for the
> school bus - at the end of the driveway.

+1
Which isn't ridiculous at -15F but it doesn't seem weather
dependent at all.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/23/2024 8:36 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/22/2024 10:52 PM, zen cycle wrote:
>> On 4/22/2024 8:50 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 4/22/2024 3:05 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>> Am Sun, 21 Apr 2024 20:09:08 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>>
>>>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/21/2024 6:52 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>>>> Am Thu, 18 Apr 2024 21:04:42 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>>>>>> ...
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>>>> Adding a strong motor to a bicycle, as it is done with e-bikes
>>>>>>> limited
>>>>>>> to 25 km/h, eliminates most of that.  Arguing "but this still is
>>>>>>> cycling!!" is like selling electric wheelchairs to healthy people
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> pointing to the Paralympics to justify it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "looking at what people do who _are_ into ebikes I conclude
>>>>>> that people are even more lazy..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's what I see as well.  Your post is well considered as
>>>>>> an observer of the actual situation now.
>>>>>
>>>>> If it’s using a bike for utility which most of the hire bikes are
>>>>> nowadays
>>>>> I really don’t see the problem?
>>>>
>>>> Obviously. That doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist, though.
>>>> The
>>>> relevant fact is, cycling for utitity purposes creates strength and
>>>> fitness too, in the long run. It isn't the intent which counts, it's
>>>> the
>>>> effect.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Road/Gravel seems folks are rather missing the point with E bikes
>>>>> or they
>>>>> essentially become mopeds, with MTB while I don’t own one I do get why
>>>>> folks do like them, are close enough and for folks sessioning stuff
>>>>> ie they
>>>>> are riding the trails down, and then a fire road climb or get a
>>>>> lift up, a
>>>>> E bike allows them to do more and so on, it’s very much not my type of
>>>>> riding, but I can absolutely see why folks do like them, plus
>>>>> wanting to do
>>>>> longer rides and so on.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, I can absolutely understand why people like e-bikes, sugar,
>>>> opioids,
>>>> or driving their car around the block, when just crossing the street
>>>> and
>>>> walking to the other side would do*).  It is addictive and they develop
>>>> a physical dependenciy of various degrees.  How often have I heard
>>>> healthy colleagues half my current age say "that's far too steep" when
>>>> talking about that ridiculously short and easy climb to the campus.
>>>> 60 m
>>>> altitude gain over 1 km, varying from 2 % up to a few meters with 7 %.
>>>>
>>>> When the weather outlook is unstable, I'm doing a local hill with 50 m
>>>> altitude gain and continuous twelve percent grade just for fun and
>>>> excercise - twelve times in a row. Two hours, 28 km, 845 m altitude
>>>> gain.
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20231031/Z1profil.PNG>
>>>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20220718/20220718_00003.jpg>
>>>>
>>>> Being able to do that doesn't come easy, when you haven't used the
>>>> muscles needed for cycling for years,  that's for sure. Muscles atrophy
>>>> very quickly, as anybody knows who had to give up for a few months or
>>>> more, because of an accident or an illness.
>>>>
>>>> But it comes essentially for free, when regularely riding to work or
>>>> other utility purposes and _not_ giving up because a few hundred meters
>>>> with, say, six percent seem impossible to handle on a bicycle.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *) Decades ago, when your children where still young schoolchildren,  a
>>>> family friend with children and we visited some U.S. countries along
>>>> the
>>>> east cost, by driving north, visiting Cape Cod, Boston, Salem and some
>>>> other places, on the way.  In Boston, we stayed at a small hotel for a
>>>> day, having a strange experience when going for breakfast the following
>>>> morning. "Where is everybody", one of us asked. No hotel guest in
>>>> sight,
>>>> empty parking lot.  Well, we crossed the road on foot, to check some
>>>> shops offering snacks over there, but finally settled for a
>>>> McDonalds on
>>>> that side, after walking perhaps another 100 m - and met many of the
>>>> hotel guests there, including their cars in the parking lot.  Driving
>>>> one km to the next crossing, making an U-turn, driving back another km
>>>> and parking in 100 m distance from the hotel obviously was easier for
>>>> them.  I doubt that it was faster, though.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Further to your Boston anecdote, out here in rural USA people really
>>> do drive large pickups a few hundred feet from the garage to the
>>> mailbox and back.  This wouldn't be noticeable when driving past but
>>> on a bicycle the entire cycle is obvious.
>>
>> further to the suburban Boston anecdotes, during my commutes I lose
>> count of how many parents I see sitting in their cars, engine running,
>> with their kid(s) waiting for the school bus - at the end of the
>> driveway.
>
> +1
> Which isn't ridiculous at -15F but it doesn't seem weather dependent at
> all.

Right, I don't commute by bike when it's below freezing or in
'inclement' weather. Basically, if the weathers good enough for me to
ride, it's well within reason for waiting outside for the schoolbus.

--
Add xx to reply

zen cycle <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> writes:

> On 4/22/2024 8:50 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/22/2024 3:05 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>> Am Sun, 21 Apr 2024 20:09:08 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>
>>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>> On 4/21/2024 6:52 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>>> Am Thu, 18 Apr 2024 21:04:42 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>> ...
>>>
>>>>>> Adding a strong motor to a bicycle, as it is done with e-bikes limited
>>>>>> to 25 km/h, eliminates most of that.  Arguing "but this still is
>>>>>> cycling!!" is like selling electric wheelchairs to healthy people and
>>>>>> pointing to the Paralympics to justify it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "looking at what people do who _are_ into ebikes I conclude
>>>>> that people are even more lazy..."
>>>>>
>>>>> That's what I see as well.  Your post is well considered as
>>>>> an observer of the actual situation now.
>>>>
>>>> If it’s using a bike for utility which most of the hire bikes are
>>>> nowadays
>>>> I really don’t see the problem?
>>>
>>> Obviously. That doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist, though. The
>>> relevant fact is, cycling for utitity purposes creates strength and
>>> fitness too, in the long run. It isn't the intent which counts, it's the
>>> effect.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Road/Gravel seems folks are rather missing the point with E bikes
>>>> or they
>>>> essentially become mopeds, with MTB while I don’t own one I do get why
>>>> folks do like them, are close enough and for folks sessioning
>>>> stuff ie they
>>>> are riding the trails down, and then a fire road climb or get a
>>>> lift up, a
>>>> E bike allows them to do more and so on, it’s very much not my type of
>>>> riding, but I can absolutely see why folks do like them, plus
>>>> wanting to do
>>>> longer rides and so on.
>>>
>>> Oh, I can absolutely understand why people like e-bikes, sugar, opioids,
>>> or driving their car around the block, when just crossing the street and
>>> walking to the other side would do*).  It is addictive and they develop
>>> a physical dependenciy of various degrees.  How often have I heard
>>> healthy colleagues half my current age say "that's far too steep" when
>>> talking about that ridiculously short and easy climb to the campus. 60 m
>>> altitude gain over 1 km, varying from 2 % up to a few meters with 7 %.
>>>
>>> When the weather outlook is unstable, I'm doing a local hill with 50 m
>>> altitude gain and continuous twelve percent grade just for fun and
>>> excercise - twelve times in a row. Two hours, 28 km, 845 m altitude
>>> gain.
>>>
>>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20231031/Z1profil.PNG>
>>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20220718/20220718_00003.jpg>
>>>
>>> Being able to do that doesn't come easy, when you haven't used the
>>> muscles needed for cycling for years,  that's for sure. Muscles atrophy
>>> very quickly, as anybody knows who had to give up for a few months or
>>> more, because of an accident or an illness.
>>>
>>> But it comes essentially for free, when regularely riding to work or
>>> other utility purposes and _not_ giving up because a few hundred meters
>>> with, say, six percent seem impossible to handle on a bicycle.
>>>
>>>
>>> *) Decades ago, when your children where still young schoolchildren,  a
>>> family friend with children and we visited some U.S. countries along the
>>> east cost, by driving north, visiting Cape Cod, Boston, Salem and some
>>> other places, on the way.  In Boston, we stayed at a small hotel for a
>>> day, having a strange experience when going for breakfast the following
>>> morning. "Where is everybody", one of us asked. No hotel guest in sight,
>>> empty parking lot.  Well, we crossed the road on foot, to check some
>>> shops offering snacks over there, but finally settled for a McDonalds on
>>> that side, after walking perhaps another 100 m - and met many of the
>>> hotel guests there, including their cars in the parking lot.  Driving
>>> one km to the next crossing, making an U-turn, driving back another km
>>> and parking in 100 m distance from the hotel obviously was easier for
>>> them.  I doubt that it was faster, though.
>>>
>> Further to your Boston anecdote, out here in rural USA people really
>> do drive large pickups a few hundred feet from the garage to the
>> mailbox and back.  This wouldn't be noticeable when driving past but
>> on a bicycle the entire cycle is obvious.
>
> further to the suburban Boston anecdotes, during my commutes I lose
> count of how many parents I see sitting in their cars, engine running,
> with their kid(s) waiting for the school bus - at the end of the driveway.

I see those as well. Back when I was a kid any of my peers would have
died of shame if their parent insisted on waiting with them at the bus
stop.

Ride into Lowell, though, and you do see groups of kids waiting for
the bus without benefit of adult supervision.

--

with <iFAVN.1140356$Ms2.901361@fx01.ams4> Roger Merriman wrote:
> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 4/21/2024 9:07 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 4/21/2024 4:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:

*SKIP* [ 12 lines 4 levels deep]
>>> I definitely think the upper speed for power assist is far too high
>>> in the U.S. I think eBikes should give no assist above 12 mph.
>>
>> Without parsing the actual limit, Mr Merriman has a point.
>>
>> In plain English, a bicycle with assisted power is a 'motor bike' but
>> statutorily there's a distinction between 'assist' and 'motor
>> vehicle'.
>
> Indeed while a E bike has a motor it’s power out put and weight and
> how it’s delivered are quite some distance away from a Motorbike, for
> example just commuting into central london as I did last week.

I've tailgated ebike once for like 10km (sure, no significant
elevations, smooth pavement, no traffic lights or anything). He tried
to break for it once but failed :D

*CUT* [ 10 lines 1 level deep]

--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom

On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 10:04:29 +0200, Wolfgang Strobl
<news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:

>Google bought and killed Dejanews, so I can't point to that anymore, but
>here is my copy, for reference
><https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/news/up3kki1ef6t6itj3nvjm8g21uv1lahoq0b@4ax.com.txt>

The Google Groups archives are still available back to about 2003.
Your article is at:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/WrhRZaet0sE/m/V9xWMp_VAwAJ>

There is also narkive.com:
<https://rec.bicycles.tech.narkive.com/>
Unfortunately, they don't have a search feature and Google search
seems to have stopped indexing them about 10 years ago.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Am Mon, 22 Apr 2024 21:44:49 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:

>On 4/22/2024 8:50 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/22/2024 3:05 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>
>>> ... In Boston, we stayed at a small hotel for a
>>> day, having a strange experience when going for breakfast the following
>>> morning. "Where is everybody", one of us asked. No hotel guest in sight,
>>> empty parking lot.  Well, we crossed the road on foot, to check some
>>> shops offering snacks over there, but finally settled for a McDonalds on
>>> that side, after walking perhaps another 100 m - and met many of the
>>> hotel guests there, including their cars in the parking lot.  Driving
>>> one km to the next crossing, making an U-turn, driving back another km
>>> and parking in 100 m distance from the hotel obviously was easier for
>>> them.  I doubt that it was faster, though.
>
>I understand your point and agree. But in one of his early books, Bill
>Bryson (an American living in England) talked about visiting America
>with his family. He described a similar situation, but in his case it
>was impossible for him to safely cross that road. Much of America's
>suburbs seems designed to prohibit walking.

Unfortunately, such designs spilled over to parts of Europe, too. When
riding through sprawled villages out in the countryside, I often notice
that sidewalks end as soon as they leave the village and are obviously
only used to push cyclists off the road - and often end just a few
hundred meters further on. As a cyclist, that's fine with me, I welcome
the latter, but for pedestrians it's rather detrimental.

The same applies to large intersections or large traffic circles where
pedestrians are prohibited from crossing in a straight line by barriers
or chains, forcing them to take a long detour, while car traffic can
pass through quickly and easily.

Personally, on the bike I prefer small roundabouts like this one
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/cycling101/roundabout.gif>
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/cycling101/gimmersdorfkreisel.jpg>
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/cycling101/roundaboutquickandsafe_e960.mp4>

>
>> Further to your Boston anecdote, out here in rural USA people really do
>> drive large pickups a few hundred feet from the garage to the mailbox
>> and back.
>
>We saw that behavior by our friends' neighbor in Charlotte, North
>Carolina. Except it was a sedan, not a pickup, and the distance was less
>than 50 feet.

We saw a similar behaviour, decades ago, during a family vacation on a
farm on a hillside in the Black Forest. The farmer's wife drove down the
driveway in her AFAIR VW Golf to collect the mail. The reason might
have been that she had to transport two or more large and heavy milk
cans down to the road every few days, where these got collected/emptied
by a tank truck of the local cooperative, and was simply used to do it
that way. About 200 m with 16 m altitude difference isn't that easy,
even when just walking. There are better ways, of course. A
lightweight fixed gear bicycle tailored for riding up a 8 percent grade
with about 120 W / 6 km/h could do it, or almost any more modern bicycle
built for hilly regions. A person working on a farm should be able to
produce 120 W or 1.7 W/kg for about two minutes, easily. Just roll down
the hill fast and climb up slowly. Wouldn't work for transporting two
100 kg milk cans, but certainly for a 70 kg person plus 15 kg bicycle,
plus a few postcards.

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

Am Tue, 23 Apr 2024 09:02:19 -0400 schrieb Zen Cycle
<funkmaster@hotmail.com>:

>On 4/23/2024 8:36 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/22/2024 10:52 PM, zen cycle wrote:
....
>>> further to the suburban Boston anecdotes, during my commutes I lose
>>> count of how many parents I see sitting in their cars, engine running,
>>> with their kid(s) waiting for the school bus - at the end of the
>>> driveway.
>>
>> +1
>> Which isn't ridiculous at -15F but it doesn't seem weather dependent at
>> all.
>
>Right, I don't commute by bike when it's below freezing or in
>'inclement' weather. Basically, if the weathers good enough for me to
>ride, it's well within reason for waiting outside for the schoolbus.

We rarely used our family car after 1990 and gave it up from 1993 to
1999, with two preschool children. We both continued to work, til
retirement a few years ago. Because public transit was awkward when
crossing the Rhine river and then leaving the municipality, I prefered
to use my bicycle the whole year over, for my commute. Handling
temperatures down to -15°C (== -5°F) isn't that difficult, most of the
time, when you prepare for it.

This
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/wolfgang-strobl/fotos/bonn/rhein/P1080663.jpeg>
is a picture from 2009-01-06, crossing the steaming river, temperature
-9° Celsius, nine degrees below freezing, down in Bonn. 100 m further up
it was even colder. Easy as cake, when it is dry and the sun is
shining.

+2 degrees above freezing, wind, with a mixture of snow and rain was a
lot worse.

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

Am Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:43:07 -0400 schrieb Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org>:

>On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 21:29:50 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>wrote:

>>Arriving at the lights with an annoyingly ridden E hire bike and a
>>motorbike. The Motorbike from experience would easily out accelerate me,
>>the E bike while faster than say a roadie is comfortably within my ability
>>to out accelerate and also out pace. They where one of many E bikes that I
>>passed, I passed no motorcycles they all passed me.
>>
>>Roger Merriman
>
>There's a bigger difference between a Honda 125cc and a Harley
>Davidson than between an ebike and the Honda 125cc

That's an interesting statement. I happen to still own a 125ccm Honda
(<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Wave_series>, called ANF 125
Innova in Germany) and happen to agree. But why do I agree? What do you
people think?

--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

On 4/24/2024 7:07 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Tue, 23 Apr 2024 09:02:19 -0400 schrieb Zen Cycle
> <funkmaster@hotmail.com>:
>
>> On 4/23/2024 8:36 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 4/22/2024 10:52 PM, zen cycle wrote:
> ...
>>>> further to the suburban Boston anecdotes, during my commutes I lose
>>>> count of how many parents I see sitting in their cars, engine running,
>>>> with their kid(s) waiting for the school bus - at the end of the
>>>> driveway.
>>>
>>> +1
>>> Which isn't ridiculous at -15F but it doesn't seem weather dependent at
>>> all.
>>
>> Right, I don't commute by bike when it's below freezing or in
>> 'inclement' weather. Basically, if the weathers good enough for me to
>> ride, it's well within reason for waiting outside for the schoolbus.
>
> We rarely used our family car after 1990 and gave it up from 1993 to
> 1999, with two preschool children. We both continued to work, til
> retirement a few years ago. Because public transit was awkward when
> crossing the Rhine river and then leaving the municipality, I prefered
> to use my bicycle the whole year over, for my commute. Handling
> temperatures down to -15°C (== -5°F) isn't that difficult, most of the
> time, when you prepare for it.
>
> This
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/wolfgang-strobl/fotos/bonn/rhein/P1080663.jpeg>
> is a picture from 2009-01-06, crossing the steaming river, temperature
> -9° Celsius, nine degrees below freezing, down in Bonn. 100 m further up
> it was even colder. Easy as cake, when it is dry and the sun is
> shining.
>
> +2 degrees above freezing, wind, with a mixture of snow and rain was a
> lot worse.
>
>

Yes to that. A humid wind is miserable for cycling compared
to several degrees colder in dry air.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Am Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:43:07 -0400 schrieb Catrike Ryder
> <Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
>
>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 21:29:50 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>> Arriving at the lights with an annoyingly ridden E hire bike and a
>>> motorbike. The Motorbike from experience would easily out accelerate me,
>>> the E bike while faster than say a roadie is comfortably within my ability
>>> to out accelerate and also out pace. They where one of many E bikes that I
>>> passed, I passed no motorcycles they all passed me.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> There's a bigger difference between a Honda 125cc and a Harley
>> Davidson than between an ebike and the Honda 125cc
>
> That's an interesting statement. I happen to still own a 125ccm Honda
> (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Wave_series>, called ANF 125
> Innova in Germany) and happen to agree. But why do I agree? What do you
> people think?
>
>
Can you lift it one handed? Certainly the E bikes I use/have experience I
can.

A small motorbike is heavier than I am though 1/3 of the weight of Harley
Davidson, but either way your not lifting the bike easily if at all by your
own, and certainly wouldn’t for example lift one over a gate or so on by
choice.

Harleys are fairly limited motor bikes, with their weight and size. fine
for burbling along big open roads, but absolute handful with slower
narrower roads, even more so than larger super bikes which are also a
handful but are significantly lighter and smaller bikes.

Ie folks I’ve known with Harleys have been careful where they ride them as
they don’t want to drop them in the lanes, which being narrow steep, with
all sorts of cambers and surfaces it’s not a unreasonable worry.

Roger Merriman

On 4/24/2024 9:59 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>> Am Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:43:07 -0400 schrieb Catrike Ryder
>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
>>
>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 21:29:50 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Arriving at the lights with an annoyingly ridden E hire bike and a
>>>> motorbike. The Motorbike from experience would easily out accelerate me,
>>>> the E bike while faster than say a roadie is comfortably within my ability
>>>> to out accelerate and also out pace. They where one of many E bikes that I
>>>> passed, I passed no motorcycles they all passed me.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> There's a bigger difference between a Honda 125cc and a Harley
>>> Davidson than between an ebike and the Honda 125cc
>>
>> That's an interesting statement. I happen to still own a 125ccm Honda
>> (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Wave_series>, called ANF 125
>> Innova in Germany) and happen to agree. But why do I agree? What do you
>> people think?
>>
>>
> Can you lift it one handed? Certainly the E bikes I use/have experience I
> can.
>
> A small motorbike is heavier than I am though 1/3 of the weight of Harley
> Davidson, but either way your not lifting the bike easily if at all by your
> own, and certainly wouldn’t for example lift one over a gate or so on by
> choice.
>
> Harleys are fairly limited motor bikes, with their weight and size. fine
> for burbling along big open roads, but absolute handful with slower
> narrower roads, even more so than larger super bikes which are also a
> handful but are significantly lighter and smaller bikes.
>
> Ie folks I’ve known with Harleys have been careful where they ride them as
> they don’t want to drop them in the lanes, which being narrow steep, with
> all sorts of cambers and surfaces it’s not a unreasonable worry.

LOL...right, Harley's weren't designed for the English countryside....

>
> Roger Merriman
>
>

--
Add xx to reply

Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/24/2024 9:59 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>> Am Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:43:07 -0400 schrieb Catrike Ryder
>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 21:29:50 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Arriving at the lights with an annoyingly ridden E hire bike and a
>>>>> motorbike. The Motorbike from experience would easily out accelerate me,
>>>>> the E bike while faster than say a roadie is comfortably within my ability
>>>>> to out accelerate and also out pace. They where one of many E bikes that I
>>>>> passed, I passed no motorcycles they all passed me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>> There's a bigger difference between a Honda 125cc and a Harley
>>>> Davidson than between an ebike and the Honda 125cc
>>>
>>> That's an interesting statement. I happen to still own a 125ccm Honda
>>> (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Wave_series>, called ANF 125
>>> Innova in Germany) and happen to agree. But why do I agree? What do you
>>> people think?
>>>
>>>
>> Can you lift it one handed? Certainly the E bikes I use/have experience I
>> can.
>>
>> A small motorbike is heavier than I am though 1/3 of the weight of Harley
>> Davidson, but either way your not lifting the bike easily if at all by your
>> own, and certainly wouldn’t for example lift one over a gate or so on by
>> choice.
>>
>> Harleys are fairly limited motor bikes, with their weight and size. fine
>> for burbling along big open roads, but absolute handful with slower
>> narrower roads, even more so than larger super bikes which are also a
>> handful but are significantly lighter and smaller bikes.
>>
>> Ie folks I’ve known with Harleys have been careful where they ride them as
>> they don’t want to drop them in the lanes, which being narrow steep, with
>> all sorts of cambers and surfaces it’s not a unreasonable worry.
>
> LOL...right, Harley's weren't designed for the English countryside....

To be fair English lanes tend to be more gentle not always but it’s less
hilly, that either Wales or Scotland, Wales arguably has more hilly roads,
for various reasons from geography to historical and so on.

Ie it might be a bit slow though the bends and what not, your not going to
keep up with mates on non Harleys or even cars driven by locals but it
would be safe and doable.
>
>
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>>

Roger Merriman
>

On 4/24/2024 10:36 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 4/24/2024 9:59 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>>> Am Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:43:07 -0400 schrieb Catrike Ryder
>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 21:29:50 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Arriving at the lights with an annoyingly ridden E hire bike and a
>>>>>> motorbike. The Motorbike from experience would easily out accelerate me,
>>>>>> the E bike while faster than say a roadie is comfortably within my ability
>>>>>> to out accelerate and also out pace. They where one of many E bikes that I
>>>>>> passed, I passed no motorcycles they all passed me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a bigger difference between a Honda 125cc and a Harley
>>>>> Davidson than between an ebike and the Honda 125cc
>>>>
>>>> That's an interesting statement. I happen to still own a 125ccm Honda
>>>> (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Wave_series>, called ANF 125
>>>> Innova in Germany) and happen to agree. But why do I agree? What do you
>>>> people think?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Can you lift it one handed? Certainly the E bikes I use/have experience I
>>> can.
>>>
>>> A small motorbike is heavier than I am though 1/3 of the weight of Harley
>>> Davidson, but either way your not lifting the bike easily if at all by your
>>> own, and certainly wouldn’t for example lift one over a gate or so on by
>>> choice.
>>>
>>> Harleys are fairly limited motor bikes, with their weight and size. fine
>>> for burbling along big open roads, but absolute handful with slower
>>> narrower roads, even more so than larger super bikes which are also a
>>> handful but are significantly lighter and smaller bikes.
>>>
>>> Ie folks I’ve known with Harleys have been careful where they ride them as
>>> they don’t want to drop them in the lanes, which being narrow steep, with
>>> all sorts of cambers and surfaces it’s not a unreasonable worry.
>>
>> LOL...right, Harley's weren't designed for the English countryside....
>
> To be fair English lanes tend to be more gentle not always but it’s less
> hilly, that either Wales or Scotland, Wales arguably has more hilly roads,
> for various reasons from geography to historical and so on.
>
> Ie it might be a bit slow though the bends and what not, your not going to
> keep up with mates on non Harleys or even cars driven by locals but it
> would be safe and doable.

"not going to keep up with mates on non Harleys or even cars driven by
locals"

My recent experience driving the Irish countryside lends credence to
that statement.

>>
>>
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>>
>
> Roger Merriman
>>
>
>
>

--
Add xx to reply

Am Tue, 23 Apr 2024 17:22:53 +0000 schrieb Eric Pozharski
<apple.universe@posteo.net>:

>with <iFAVN.1140356$Ms2.901361@fx01.ams4> Roger Merriman wrote:
>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> On 4/21/2024 9:07 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 4/21/2024 4:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
>*SKIP* [ 12 lines 4 levels deep]
>>>> I definitely think the upper speed for power assist is far too high
>>>> in the U.S. I think eBikes should give no assist above 12 mph.
>>>
>>> Without parsing the actual limit, Mr Merriman has a point.
>>>
>>> In plain English, a bicycle with assisted power is a 'motor bike' but
>>> statutorily there's a distinction between 'assist' and 'motor
>>> vehicle'.
>>
>> Indeed while a E bike has a motor it’s power out put and weight and
>> how it’s delivered are quite some distance away from a Motorbike, for
>> example just commuting into central london as I did last week.

An e-bike isn't "some distance away from a Motorbike", because it _is_ a
motorized bike, just a speed limited motorized bike.

>
>I've tailgated ebike once for like 10km (sure, no significant
>elevations, smooth pavement, no traffic lights or anything). He tried
>to break for it once but failed :D

I've outrun an e-bike limited to 45 km/h on flat ground for a few 100
meters (legally a moped or "Leichtkraftrad" in Germany, similar to the
gasoline mopeds of the old, needing insurance and drivers license),
after riding my road bike for about 60 kilometers through some hills
nearby. I've even occasionally outrun cars in my neighborhood when
people were in the wrong gear, couldn't shift properly, couldn't judge
the dimensions of their vehicles well and so on.

But even a untrained child on an old 25 km/h e-bike not having any of
those fancy 340 percent turbo+ modes could easily outrun me at that 2
km/6 % ascent up to a nearby village, or when doing one of my 40+ km
tours. It's even more obvious that any car can outrun me, when not
hampered by obstacles like traffic jams.

This is one of many differences between muscle powerd bicycles and
motorized vehicles like those e-bikes.

The speed limit of a muscle powered bicycle on the road depends on many
things, varying between 3 km/h and more than 100 km/h, depending on the
rider, his or her actual condition and, of course, the actual course and
situation. To mention a few: bicycle weight and aerodynamics, strength,
endurance, training condition, incline, wind, exhaustion, aerodynamic
posture, ground conditions, time span, and many more I forgot.

The speed of a motor powered vehicle on the road, on the other hand,
isn't limited by the technical capabilities of the vehicle, nor by the
capabilites of the driver, but by laws regulating and limiting the
behaviour of the vehicle and the behaviour of the driver.

Even for the older, lower powered b-bikes and e-bikes, the motor power
and endurance already exceeded that of the driver. Nowadays, you won't
find many e-bikes anymore, that don't exceed the average and peak power
of their rider by at least a factor of two.

The 25 km/h gasoline mofa of the old was limited to 25 km/h, because
that limit was artificially enforced by throttling the internal
combustion engine at that point, the 40 km/h or now 45 km/h gasoline
moped likewise is artificially limited to that speed. Same for their
electrified counterparts, the 25 km/h and 45 km/h e-bike. Quite often,
both variants are even built from the very same components.

In actual fact, one of the reasons why S-Pedelec (45 km/h e-bikes that
is) didn't sell well (und why I sometimes could outrun one, see above)
is that Bosch and others aren't interested in building two different
motors, when an single construction can do and can be sold for both
purposes, just by a few changes in the firmware and some cosmetics.

Another observation: An European 45 km/h e-bike is a bit more similar to
a real bicycle than a 25 km/h e-bike, because you actually would have to
use a non trivial part of your muscle power, in order to reach and
sustain those 45 km/h. That's not what people expect from an e-bike -
reduced effort, little effort, that is.

But the relaxed limit comes with an additional and heavy price: drivers
license, insurance, mandatory helmet. Of course almost nobody buys that
stuff, when, given those conditions, faster and more powerfull scooters
without pedals are available for half the money.

Most gasoline mopeds of the sixties and seventies came in two almost
identical versions too, one limited to 25 km/h, the other limited to 40
km/h, in Germany. So nothing really new in this respect, too.

TL;DR A fixed speed limit enforced by motor firmware is not what a
bicycle is all about.

--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/24/2024 10:36 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 4/24/2024 9:59 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>>>> Am Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:43:07 -0400 schrieb Catrike Ryder
>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 21:29:50 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arriving at the lights with an annoyingly ridden E hire bike and a
>>>>>>> motorbike. The Motorbike from experience would easily out accelerate me,
>>>>>>> the E bike while faster than say a roadie is comfortably within my ability
>>>>>>> to out accelerate and also out pace. They where one of many E bikes that I
>>>>>>> passed, I passed no motorcycles they all passed me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's a bigger difference between a Honda 125cc and a Harley
>>>>>> Davidson than between an ebike and the Honda 125cc
>>>>>
>>>>> That's an interesting statement. I happen to still own a 125ccm Honda
>>>>> (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Wave_series>, called ANF 125
>>>>> Innova in Germany) and happen to agree. But why do I agree? What do you
>>>>> people think?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Can you lift it one handed? Certainly the E bikes I use/have experience I
>>>> can.
>>>>
>>>> A small motorbike is heavier than I am though 1/3 of the weight of Harley
>>>> Davidson, but either way your not lifting the bike easily if at all by your
>>>> own, and certainly wouldn’t for example lift one over a gate or so on by
>>>> choice.
>>>>
>>>> Harleys are fairly limited motor bikes, with their weight and size. fine
>>>> for burbling along big open roads, but absolute handful with slower
>>>> narrower roads, even more so than larger super bikes which are also a
>>>> handful but are significantly lighter and smaller bikes.
>>>>
>>>> Ie folks I’ve known with Harleys have been careful where they ride them as
>>>> they don’t want to drop them in the lanes, which being narrow steep, with
>>>> all sorts of cambers and surfaces it’s not a unreasonable worry.
>>>
>>> LOL...right, Harley's weren't designed for the English countryside....
>>
>> To be fair English lanes tend to be more gentle not always but it’s less
>> hilly, that either Wales or Scotland, Wales arguably has more hilly roads,
>> for various reasons from geography to historical and so on.
>>
>> Ie it might be a bit slow though the bends and what not, your not going to
>> keep up with mates on non Harleys or even cars driven by locals but it
>> would be safe and doable.
>
> "not going to keep up with mates on non Harleys or even cars driven by
> locals"
>
> My recent experience driving the Irish countryside lends credence to
> that statement.

Indeed! Being local or at least knowing the road, I’m a fair bit faster and
slower as you where than tourists ie I know the bends and I know the areas
not to be brave.

One of the old mountain roads has scree down the middle and before it got
wisely closed, to motor traffic at least, and unwise folks came off the
fairly sheer side ie folks driving too fast, inexperienced and so on.

Luckily only mechanical and financial damage but even so!
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Roger Merriman

On 4/24/2024 11:00 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 4/24/2024 10:36 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 4/24/2024 9:59 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>>>>> Am Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:43:07 -0400 schrieb Catrike Ryder
>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 21:29:50 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Arriving at the lights with an annoyingly ridden E hire bike and a
>>>>>>>> motorbike. The Motorbike from experience would easily out accelerate me,
>>>>>>>> the E bike while faster than say a roadie is comfortably within my ability
>>>>>>>> to out accelerate and also out pace. They where one of many E bikes that I
>>>>>>>> passed, I passed no motorcycles they all passed me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's a bigger difference between a Honda 125cc and a Harley
>>>>>>> Davidson than between an ebike and the Honda 125cc
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's an interesting statement. I happen to still own a 125ccm Honda
>>>>>> (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Wave_series>, called ANF 125
>>>>>> Innova in Germany) and happen to agree. But why do I agree? What do you
>>>>>> people think?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Can you lift it one handed? Certainly the E bikes I use/have experience I
>>>>> can.
>>>>>
>>>>> A small motorbike is heavier than I am though 1/3 of the weight of Harley
>>>>> Davidson, but either way your not lifting the bike easily if at all by your
>>>>> own, and certainly wouldn’t for example lift one over a gate or so on by
>>>>> choice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Harleys are fairly limited motor bikes, with their weight and size. fine
>>>>> for burbling along big open roads, but absolute handful with slower
>>>>> narrower roads, even more so than larger super bikes which are also a
>>>>> handful but are significantly lighter and smaller bikes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ie folks I’ve known with Harleys have been careful where they ride them as
>>>>> they don’t want to drop them in the lanes, which being narrow steep, with
>>>>> all sorts of cambers and surfaces it’s not a unreasonable worry.
>>>>
>>>> LOL...right, Harley's weren't designed for the English countryside....
>>>
>>> To be fair English lanes tend to be more gentle not always but it’s less
>>> hilly, that either Wales or Scotland, Wales arguably has more hilly roads,
>>> for various reasons from geography to historical and so on.
>>>
>>> Ie it might be a bit slow though the bends and what not, your not going to
>>> keep up with mates on non Harleys or even cars driven by locals but it
>>> would be safe and doable.
>>
>> "not going to keep up with mates on non Harleys or even cars driven by
>> locals"
>>
>> My recent experience driving the Irish countryside lends credence to
>> that statement.
>
> Indeed! Being local or at least knowing the road, I’m a fair bit faster and
> slower as you where than tourists ie I know the bends and I know the areas
> not to be brave.
>
> One of the old mountain roads has scree down the middle and before it got
> wisely closed, to motor traffic at least, and unwise folks came off the
> fairly sheer side ie folks driving too fast, inexperienced and so on.
>
> Luckily only mechanical and financial damage but even so!
>>

Not sure where this is going but no first class MTB is
helpful for il Giro either. Can't win Isle of Man on a big
Harley, but if you're traveling from here to, say Sturgis,
it's a very good machine.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 4/24/2024 11:00 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 4/24/2024 10:36 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 4/24/2024 9:59 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>>>>>> Am Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:43:07 -0400 schrieb Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 21:29:50 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Arriving at the lights with an annoyingly ridden E hire bike and a
>>>>>>>>> motorbike. The Motorbike from experience would easily out accelerate me,
>>>>>>>>> the E bike while faster than say a roadie is comfortably within my ability
>>>>>>>>> to out accelerate and also out pace. They where one of many E bikes that I
>>>>>>>>> passed, I passed no motorcycles they all passed me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's a bigger difference between a Honda 125cc and a Harley
>>>>>>>> Davidson than between an ebike and the Honda 125cc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's an interesting statement. I happen to still own a 125ccm Honda
>>>>>>> (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Wave_series>, called ANF 125
>>>>>>> Innova in Germany) and happen to agree. But why do I agree? What do you
>>>>>>> people think?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you lift it one handed? Certainly the E bikes I use/have experience I
>>>>>> can.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A small motorbike is heavier than I am though 1/3 of the weight of Harley
>>>>>> Davidson, but either way your not lifting the bike easily if at all by your
>>>>>> own, and certainly wouldn’t for example lift one over a gate or so on by
>>>>>> choice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Harleys are fairly limited motor bikes, with their weight and size. fine
>>>>>> for burbling along big open roads, but absolute handful with slower
>>>>>> narrower roads, even more so than larger super bikes which are also a
>>>>>> handful but are significantly lighter and smaller bikes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ie folks I’ve known with Harleys have been careful where they ride them as
>>>>>> they don’t want to drop them in the lanes, which being narrow steep, with
>>>>>> all sorts of cambers and surfaces it’s not a unreasonable worry.
>>>>>
>>>>> LOL...right, Harley's weren't designed for the English countryside....
>>>>
>>>> To be fair English lanes tend to be more gentle not always but it’s less
>>>> hilly, that either Wales or Scotland, Wales arguably has more hilly roads,
>>>> for various reasons from geography to historical and so on.
>>>>
>>>> Ie it might be a bit slow though the bends and what not, your not going to
>>>> keep up with mates on non Harleys or even cars driven by locals but it
>>>> would be safe and doable.
>>>
>>> "not going to keep up with mates on non Harleys or even cars driven by
>>> locals"
>>>
>>> My recent experience driving the Irish countryside lends credence to
>>> that statement.
>>
>> Indeed! Being local or at least knowing the road, I’m a fair bit faster and
>> slower as you where than tourists ie I know the bends and I know the areas
>> not to be brave.
>>
>> One of the old mountain roads has scree down the middle and before it got
>> wisely closed, to motor traffic at least, and unwise folks came off the
>> fairly sheer side ie folks driving too fast, inexperienced and so on.
>>
>> Luckily only mechanical and financial damage but even so!
>>>
>
> Not sure where this is going but no first class MTB is
> helpful for il Giro either. Can't win Isle of Man on a big
> Harley, but if you're traveling from here to, say Sturgis,
> it's a very good machine.

Well more than the Harley is quite a outlier most motorbikes are by some
margin lighter and smaller and thus more adaptable ie can be used in more
places, and yes some folks do use them for longer trips but again they are
outliers themselves, ie people like the idea of it than actually doing so.

Motorbikes are predominantly pleasure than utility particularly the larger
more expensive ones, so tends to be day trips with mates. Most of the
commuters or deliveries is done by smaller motorcycles or mopeds, only
exception being the NHS Blood delivery bikes.

Ie in the summer on a nice sunny weekend loads, mid week very few.

Roger Merriman

Am Wed, 24 Apr 2024 13:59:55 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:

>Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>> Am Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:43:07 -0400 schrieb Catrike Ryder
>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
>>
>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 21:29:50 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Arriving at the lights with an annoyingly ridden E hire bike and a
>>>> motorbike. The Motorbike from experience would easily out accelerate me,
>>>> the E bike while faster than say a roadie is comfortably within my ability
>>>> to out accelerate and also out pace. They where one of many E bikes that I
>>>> passed, I passed no motorcycles they all passed me.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> There's a bigger difference between a Honda 125cc and a Harley
>>> Davidson than between an ebike and the Honda 125cc
>>
>> That's an interesting statement. I happen to still own a 125ccm Honda
>> (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Wave_series>, called ANF 125
>> Innova in Germany) and happen to agree. But why do I agree? What do you
>> people think?
>>
>>
>Can you lift it one handed?

I can neither lift my cheap and ugly Prophete one handed
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/hollandrad/prophete-hollandrad.jpg>
nor would both of us probably be able to lift a Christiana bike, two
handed.
<https://www.christianiabikes.com/en/>
Both are genuine bicycles.

Can you lift this twowheeler one handed?

<https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8134631>
(Hover-1 Rival Black Hoverboard with LED Wheel, 6.8kg, up to 7 mph)

Of course you can. Does this make it a bicycle? Of course not. Is it
motor powered? Of course it is.

Like for e-bikes, the seller gives precise information about battery
capacity, achievable speed and range. I've yet to find a bicycle where
the producer or seller specifies range, achievable speed and a capacity
as some quantum of energy.

I don't even know what battery capacity would mean for my bicycle. Those
2.2 Wh from the 23 g battery powering the derailleur for between 500 and
1000 km, perhaps? :-}

>Certainly the E bikes I use/have experience I
>can.

There are powered aircraft that weigh less than 120 kg.
<https://sustainableskies.org/two-new-electric-sailplanes/>
<https://e-birdy.com/>

There are people who can lift more than twice as much.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_Olympic_weightlifting>

What has this have to do with anything?

A bicycle isn't defined by weight, but by being muscle powered, just
like a glider (sailplane) is defined by being unpowered.

One could debate whether the fact that a glider cannot usually take off
by itself where it has landed makes it truly unpowered, but given that
there is no fixed upper limit to the time or distance one can travel in
pure gliding flight, it is at least “mostly” unpowered. But is certainly
not muscle powered, like a bicycle. The power comes from thermals.
<https://soaringskyways.com/the-science-behind-glider-thermal-soaring/>
<https://glidinghotspots.eu/?switchlang=EN>

A bicycle just having a single shot start assist that gets you rolling
might be something similar, but I haven't heard anybody selling such a
thing. I guess nobody would buy it, because the point of an e-bike is to
be continually powered by a motor, with most of the power coming from
the motor, not from the rider.

>
>A small motorbike is heavier than I am though 1/3 of the weight of Harley
>Davidson, but either way your not lifting the bike easily if at all by your
>own, and certainly wouldn’t for example lift one over a gate or so on by
>choice.

It is obvious that because even at the lower end of the motorcycle power
range - e-bikes, that is - most people have plenty of surplus stored
energy for doing what they use these e-bikes for, most of the time:
Riding slow enough on mostly flat terrain for not triggering the speed
limiter, using as little muscle power as possible.

So _not_ spending money on lightweight construction, or adding all kind
of heavy stuff like suspension, stronger and heavier frames, larger or
additional batteries, even riding a cargo bike instead of a normal bike
because you can, is possible with essentially unlimited "motor assist".
People actually decide to do it that way, because it comes with almost
no additional cost, neither as necessary effort, nor monetary. It is a
logical consequence of replacing muscle power by motor power.

>
>Harleys are fairly limited motor bikes, with their weight and size. fine
>for burbling along big open roads, but absolute handful with slower
>narrower roads, even more so than larger super bikes which are also a
>handful but are significantly lighter and smaller bikes.
>
>Ie folks I’ve known with Harleys have been careful where they ride them as
>they don’t want to drop them in the lanes, which being narrow steep, with
>all sorts of cambers and surfaces it’s not a unreasonable worry.

My Honda has smaller wheels and is shorter than my ugly Prophete, both
are parked outside, because it is hard for me to lift and carry the
Prophete into the house. I wouldn't like to upright the Honda, when
tipped over, but it should be possible to handle 105 kg. Certainly
easier than to handle a toppled Yamaha XS360, weighting 178 kg. Did
have to manage that in my youth.

Speaking about a Harley-Davidson Touring or a Honda Goldwing, both
weight roundabout 390 kg, I wouldn't even get them into our front yard,
not even to the door of our front yard. And even if I could, I most
probably wouldn't be able to get it out of the front yard again, that
needing to turn the vehicle around inside that tiny yard. Not even after
removing all plants and other obstacles from the garden.

These heavy motorcycles are almost as cumbersome as a car in almost
every respect and can only be moved with the help of their engine power
after you have climbed onto or into the vehicle.

The Honda Cub (50 and 100cc) and the somewhat larger Super Cub (110cc
and 125cc aka ANF125 aka Innova) were known as "almost unkaputtbar",
almost as slim as a bicycle (quoted from
<https://www.motorradonline.de/roller/finale-honda-innova-125-traum-faenger/>)
and "rides like a bicycle" - from the point of view of people riding
"real motorcycles", of course. From their point of view, the difference
between any e-bike and my Honda is negligible. To them, these are just
different two wheeled vehicles at the very bottom of the pecking order
of motorcycles. Not able to cruise at any speed you like, not heavy
enough to impress somebody by driving up menacingly.

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions