On 4/24/2024 1:40 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Wed, 24 Apr 2024 13:59:55 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>
>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>> Am Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:43:07 -0400 schrieb Catrike Ryder
>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 21:29:50 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Arriving at the lights with an annoyingly ridden E hire bike and a
>>>>> motorbike. The Motorbike from experience would easily out accelerate me,
>>>>> the E bike while faster than say a roadie is comfortably within my ability
>>>>> to out accelerate and also out pace. They where one of many E bikes that I
>>>>> passed, I passed no motorcycles they all passed me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>> There's a bigger difference between a Honda 125cc and a Harley
>>>> Davidson than between an ebike and the Honda 125cc
>>>
>>> That's an interesting statement. I happen to still own a 125ccm Honda
>>> (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Wave_series>, called ANF 125
>>> Innova in Germany) and happen to agree. But why do I agree? What do you
>>> people think?
>>>
>>>
>> Can you lift it one handed?
>
> I can neither lift my cheap and ugly Prophete one handed
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/hollandrad/prophete-hollandrad.jpg>
> nor would both of us probably be able to lift a Christiana bike, two
> handed.
> <https://www.christianiabikes.com/en/>
> Both are genuine bicycles.
>
> Can you lift this twowheeler one handed?
>
> <https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8134631>
> (Hover-1 Rival Black Hoverboard with LED Wheel, 6.8kg, up to 7 mph)
>
> Of course you can. Does this make it a bicycle? Of course not. Is it
> motor powered? Of course it is.
>
> Like for e-bikes, the seller gives precise information about battery
> capacity, achievable speed and range. I've yet to find a bicycle where
> the producer or seller specifies range, achievable speed and a capacity
> as some quantum of energy.
>
> I don't even know what battery capacity would mean for my bicycle. Those
> 2.2 Wh from the 23 g battery powering the derailleur for between 500 and
> 1000 km, perhaps? :-}
>
>
>> Certainly the E bikes I use/have experience I
>> can.
>
> There are powered aircraft that weigh less than 120 kg.
> <https://sustainableskies.org/two-new-electric-sailplanes/>
> <https://e-birdy.com/>
>
> There are people who can lift more than twice as much.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_Olympic_weightlifting>
>
> What has this have to do with anything?
>
> A bicycle isn't defined by weight, but by being muscle powered, just
> like a glider (sailplane) is defined by being unpowered.
>
> One could debate whether the fact that a glider cannot usually take off
> by itself where it has landed makes it truly unpowered, but given that
> there is no fixed upper limit to the time or distance one can travel in
> pure gliding flight, it is at least “mostly” unpowered. But is certainly
> not muscle powered, like a bicycle. The power comes from thermals.
> <https://soaringskyways.com/the-science-behind-glider-thermal-soaring/>
> <https://glidinghotspots.eu/?switchlang=EN>
>
> A bicycle just having a single shot start assist that gets you rolling
> might be something similar, but I haven't heard anybody selling such a
> thing. I guess nobody would buy it, because the point of an e-bike is to
> be continually powered by a motor, with most of the power coming from
> the motor, not from the rider.
>
>>
>> A small motorbike is heavier than I am though 1/3 of the weight of Harley
>> Davidson, but either way your not lifting the bike easily if at all by your
>> own, and certainly wouldn’t for example lift one over a gate or so on by
>> choice.
>
> It is obvious that because even at the lower end of the motorcycle power
> range - e-bikes, that is - most people have plenty of surplus stored
> energy for doing what they use these e-bikes for, most of the time:
> Riding slow enough on mostly flat terrain for not triggering the speed
> limiter, using as little muscle power as possible.
>
> So _not_ spending money on lightweight construction, or adding all kind
> of heavy stuff like suspension, stronger and heavier frames, larger or
> additional batteries, even riding a cargo bike instead of a normal bike
> because you can, is possible with essentially unlimited "motor assist".
> People actually decide to do it that way, because it comes with almost
> no additional cost, neither as necessary effort, nor monetary. It is a
> logical consequence of replacing muscle power by motor power.
>
>>
>> Harleys are fairly limited motor bikes, with their weight and size. fine
>> for burbling along big open roads, but absolute handful with slower
>> narrower roads, even more so than larger super bikes which are also a
>> handful but are significantly lighter and smaller bikes.
>>
>> Ie folks I’ve known with Harleys have been careful where they ride them as
>> they don’t want to drop them in the lanes, which being narrow steep, with
>> all sorts of cambers and surfaces it’s not a unreasonable worry.
>
>
> My Honda has smaller wheels and is shorter than my ugly Prophete, both
> are parked outside, because it is hard for me to lift and carry the
> Prophete into the house. I wouldn't like to upright the Honda, when
> tipped over, but it should be possible to handle 105 kg. Certainly
> easier than to handle a toppled Yamaha XS360, weighting 178 kg. Did
> have to manage that in my youth.
>
> Speaking about a Harley-Davidson Touring or a Honda Goldwing, both
> weight roundabout 390 kg, I wouldn't even get them into our front yard,
> not even to the door of our front yard. And even if I could, I most
> probably wouldn't be able to get it out of the front yard again, that
> needing to turn the vehicle around inside that tiny yard. Not even after
> removing all plants and other obstacles from the garden.
>
> These heavy motorcycles are almost as cumbersome as a car in almost
> every respect and can only be moved with the help of their engine power
> after you have climbed onto or into the vehicle.
>
> The Honda Cub (50 and 100cc) and the somewhat larger Super Cub (110cc
> and 125cc aka ANF125 aka Innova) were known as "almost unkaputtbar",
> almost as slim as a bicycle (quoted from
> <https://www.motorradonline.de/roller/finale-honda-innova-125-traum-faenger/>)
> and "rides like a bicycle" - from the point of view of people riding
> "real motorcycles", of course. From their point of view, the difference
> between any e-bike and my Honda is negligible. To them, these are just
> different two wheeled vehicles at the very bottom of the pecking order
> of motorcycles. Not able to cruise at any speed you like, not heavy
> enough to impress somebody by driving up menacingly.
>
>
>
>

Nicely done again in describing our world as it is.

p.s. Normal people can recover a full size Harley:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyWpIKC_Br8

skip ahead to 6:00. In Wisconsin everyone knows this.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/24/2024 10:13 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 4/24/2024 9:59 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> Harleys are fairly limited motor bikes, with their weight and size. fine
>> for burbling along big open roads, but absolute handful with slower
>> narrower roads, even more so than larger super bikes which are also a
>> handful but are significantly lighter and smaller bikes.
>>
>> Ie folks I’ve known with Harleys have been careful where they ride
>> them as
>> they don’t want to drop them in the lanes, which being narrow steep, with
>> all sorts of cambers and surfaces it’s not a unreasonable worry.
>
> LOL...right, Harley's weren't designed for the English countryside....

Some years ago we stayed for several days at a hotel in Paris, and I had
friendly conversation with one of the desk clerks. He liked our folding
bikes, but became especially friendly when given a chance to talk about
his multiple motorcycles.

Among several sport bikes, he had one Harley Davidson. I said "But
Harleys are so primitive!" He said "That's why we like them!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/24/2024 12:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> Not sure where this is going but no first class MTB is helpful for il
> Giro either.  Can't win Isle of Man on a big Harley, but if you're
> traveling from here to, say Sturgis, it's a very good machine.

Assuming you can't afford a BMW. ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/24/2024 2:17 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/24/2024 10:13 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>> On 4/24/2024 9:59 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>
>>> Harleys are fairly limited motor bikes, with their weight
>>> and size. fine
>>> for burbling along big open roads, but absolute handful
>>> with slower
>>> narrower roads, even more so than larger super bikes
>>> which are also a
>>> handful but are significantly lighter and smaller bikes.
>>>
>>> Ie folks I’ve known with Harleys have been careful where
>>> they ride them as
>>> they don’t want to drop them in the lanes, which being
>>> narrow steep, with
>>> all sorts of cambers and surfaces it’s not a unreasonable
>>> worry.
>>
>> LOL...right, Harley's weren't designed for the English
>> countryside....
>
> Some years ago we stayed for several days at a hotel in
> Paris, and I had friendly conversation with one of the desk
> clerks. He liked our folding bikes, but became especially
> friendly when given a chance to talk about his multiple
> motorcycles.
>
> Among several sport bikes, he had one Harley Davidson. I
> said "But Harleys are so primitive!" He said "That's why we
> like them!"
>

Not as primitive as a fixed gear bicycle.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 4/24/2024 12:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>> Not sure where this is going but no first class MTB is helpful for il
>> Giro either.  Can't win Isle of Man on a big Harley, but if you're
>> traveling from here to, say Sturgis, it's a very good machine.
>
> Assuming you can't afford a BMW. ;-)
>

That would from memory be the sane choice, or similar for folks who do that
sort of thing.

Roger Merriman

Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Am Wed, 24 Apr 2024 13:59:55 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>
>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>> Am Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:43:07 -0400 schrieb Catrike Ryder
>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 21:29:50 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Arriving at the lights with an annoyingly ridden E hire bike and a
>>>>> motorbike. The Motorbike from experience would easily out accelerate me,
>>>>> the E bike while faster than say a roadie is comfortably within my ability
>>>>> to out accelerate and also out pace. They where one of many E bikes that I
>>>>> passed, I passed no motorcycles they all passed me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>> There's a bigger difference between a Honda 125cc and a Harley
>>>> Davidson than between an ebike and the Honda 125cc
>>>
>>> That's an interesting statement. I happen to still own a 125ccm Honda
>>> (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Wave_series>, called ANF 125
>>> Innova in Germany) and happen to agree. But why do I agree? What do you
>>> people think?
>>>
>>>
>> Can you lift it one handed?
>
You’re being frankly ridiculous.

Fine you don’t like e bikes, and yes some in America and Germany are
bordering on being mopeds, that that wasn’t the subject at hand, hence I’ve
returned it to remind you.

Roger Merriman

On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 11:56:57 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Not sure where this is going but no first class MTB is
>helpful for il Giro either. Can't win Isle of Man on a big
>Harley, but if you're traveling from here to, say Sturgis,
>it's a very good machine.

Not everything in Sturgis rolls on 2 wheels. There's the Sturgis SAAB
museum:
<https://www.saabmuseumusa.com>
<https://www.blackhillsbadlands.com/business/sturgis-car-museum>
Unfortunately, I've never been to Sturis.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 21:56:03 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 4/24/2024 12:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>> Not sure where this is going but no first class MTB is helpful for il
>>> Giro either.  Can't win Isle of Man on a big Harley, but if you're
>>> traveling from here to, say Sturgis, it's a very good machine.
>>
>> Assuming you can't afford a BMW. ;-)
>>
>
>That would from memory be the sane choice, or similar for folks who do that
>sort of thing.
>
>Roger Merriman

Seems to me that most of the BMW motorcycles, as well as most of the
HD bikes are the two-wheeled versions of the big, heavy four door
sedans of the 1970s.

When it comes to performance bikes, neither BMW of HD stack up.

Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 21:56:03 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 4/24/2024 12:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Not sure where this is going but no first class MTB is helpful for il
>>>> Giro either.  Can't win Isle of Man on a big Harley, but if you're
>>>> traveling from here to, say Sturgis, it's a very good machine.
>>>
>>> Assuming you can't afford a BMW. ;-)
>>>
>>
>> That would from memory be the sane choice, or similar for folks who do that
>> sort of thing.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> Seems to me that most of the BMW motorcycles, as well as most of the
> HD bikes are the two-wheeled versions of the big, heavy four door
> sedans of the 1970s.
>
> When it comes to performance bikes, neither BMW of HD stack up.
>
To be fair neither is designed as such, BMW is classically used the police
motorcycle and similar ie big comfy bike for motorway miles.

The Harley while I have seen older army ones, not seen any used for
utility. Only leisure.

Roger Merriman

On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 10:16:07 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 21:56:03 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 4/24/2024 12:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure where this is going but no first class MTB is helpful for il
>>>>> Giro either.  Can't win Isle of Man on a big Harley, but if you're
>>>>> traveling from here to, say Sturgis, it's a very good machine.
>>>>
>>>> Assuming you can't afford a BMW. ;-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> That would from memory be the sane choice, or similar for folks who do that
>>> sort of thing.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Seems to me that most of the BMW motorcycles, as well as most of the
>> HD bikes are the two-wheeled versions of the big, heavy four door
>> sedans of the 1970s.
>>
>> When it comes to performance bikes, neither BMW of HD stack up.
>>
>To be fair neither is designed as such, BMW is classically used the police
>motorcycle and similar ie big comfy bike for motorway miles.

The both produce a so-called street performance bike, but they pale in
that category when compared to a Ducati, or even a Triumph or a
Yamaha.

My point is that bragging that my motorcycle brand is better than
yours is childish. Same is true for cars, trucks and bicycles. They
all seem to serve pretty well at what they were designed and built to
do.

>The Harley while I have seen older army ones, not seen any used for
>utility. Only leisure.
>
>Roger Merriman

Au contraire, Harley's have been used as police motorcycles in the
USA for decades.

On 4/25/2024 6:16 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> floriduh dumbass <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

>>
>> Seems to me that most of the BMW motorcycles, as well as most of the
>> HD bikes are the two-wheeled versions of the big, heavy four door
>> sedans of the 1970s.
>>
>> When it comes to performance bikes, neither BMW of HD stack up.
>>
> To be fair neither is designed as such,

Not designed for performance, you say?

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/bmw/m1000rr/2023/

"BMW’s ‘homologation special’ M1000RR superbike model has been around
since 2021 and it’s the bike that forms the basis of their factory WSB
racer. In simple terms it’s a BMW S1000RR on steroids with a race-ready
engine ripe for tuning. But TT wins aside it hasn’t had the success BMW
would’ve have liked on track, so for 2023 they produced a new version."

" At 186mph, downforce on the wings increases from 16.3kg to 22.6kg,"

0-60 in 3 secs puts it on par with most street-legal "super bikes"

'don't stack up'...indeed...

It's not like they don't have experience at it either. BMW motorcyles
have a racing legacy nearly century old:
https://www.roadracingworld.com/news/bmw-introduces-2023-m-1000-rr-50-years-m-anniversary-edition/

"Legendary names from those early years include Ernst Jakob Henne who
set no less than 76 world land speed records between 1929 and 1937 on
supercharged BMW motorcycles and Georg “Schorsch” Meier who won the 1939
Senior Tourist Trophy on the Isle of Man on his 500cc supercharged BMW."

On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 07:09:04 -0400, zen cycle
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On 4/25/2024 6:16 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> floriduh dumbass <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Seems to me that most of the BMW motorcycles, as well as most of the
>>> HD bikes are the two-wheeled versions of the big, heavy four door
>>> sedans of the 1970s.
>>>
>>> When it comes to performance bikes, neither BMW of HD stack up.
>>>
>> To be fair neither is designed as such,
>
>Not designed for performance, you say?
>
>https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/bmw/m1000rr/2023/
>
>"BMW’s ‘homologation special’ M1000RR superbike model has been around
>since 2021 and it’s the bike that forms the basis of their factory WSB
>racer. In simple terms it’s a BMW S1000RR on steroids with a race-ready
>engine ripe for tuning. But TT wins aside it hasn’t had the success BMW
>would’ve have liked on track, so for 2023 they produced a new version."
>
>" At 186mph, downforce on the wings increases from 16.3kg to 22.6kg,"
>
>0-60 in 3 secs puts it on par with most street-legal "super bikes"

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/ducati/panigale-v4r/2019/

>'don't stack up'...indeed...
>
>It's not like they don't have experience at it either. BMW motorcyles
>have a racing legacy nearly century old:

So does Offenhauser....

>https://www.roadracingworld.com/news/bmw-introduces-2023-m-1000-rr-50-years-m-anniversary-edition/
>
>"Legendary names from those early years include Ernst Jakob Henne who
>set no less than 76 world land speed records between 1929 and 1937 on
>supercharged BMW motorcycles and Georg “Schorsch” Meier who won the 1939
>Senior Tourist Trophy on the Isle of Man on his 500cc supercharged BMW."
>

Times change This is 2024

https://hiconsumption.com/motors/best-naked-motorcycles/

On 4/24/2024 9:54 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 11:56:57 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> Not sure where this is going but no first class MTB is
>> helpful for il Giro either. Can't win Isle of Man on a big
>> Harley, but if you're traveling from here to, say Sturgis,
>> it's a very good machine.
>
> Not everything in Sturgis rolls on 2 wheels. There's the Sturgis SAAB
> museum:
> <https://www.saabmuseumusa.com>
> <https://www.blackhillsbadlands.com/business/sturgis-car-museum>
> Unfortunately, I've never been to Sturis.
>

A few hundred miles on US 12 across SD is great for a Harley
but English country lanes maybe not so much. No opinion on Saab.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/25/2024 3:36 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 21:56:03 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 4/24/2024 12:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Not sure where this is going but no first class MTB is helpful for il
>>>> Giro either.  Can't win Isle of Man on a big Harley, but if you're
>>>> traveling from here to, say Sturgis, it's a very good machine.
>>>
>>> Assuming you can't afford a BMW. ;-)
>>>
>>
>> That would from memory be the sane choice, or similar for folks who do that
>> sort of thing.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> Seems to me that most of the BMW motorcycles, as well as most of the
> HD bikes are the two-wheeled versions of the big, heavy four door
> sedans of the 1970s.
>
> When it comes to performance bikes, neither BMW of HD stack up.

Yes and as with bicycles use and selection vary. As we say
here, "YMMV". They're just different.

A very well designed and useful cargo bicycle, as Mr Strobl
linked, is a poor choice for any road race event short or long.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 08:02:19 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/25/2024 3:36 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 21:56:03 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 4/24/2024 12:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure where this is going but no first class MTB is helpful for il
>>>>> Giro either.  Can't win Isle of Man on a big Harley, but if you're
>>>>> traveling from here to, say Sturgis, it's a very good machine.
>>>>
>>>> Assuming you can't afford a BMW. ;-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> That would from memory be the sane choice, or similar for folks who do that
>>> sort of thing.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Seems to me that most of the BMW motorcycles, as well as most of the
>> HD bikes are the two-wheeled versions of the big, heavy four door
>> sedans of the 1970s.
>>
>> When it comes to performance bikes, neither BMW of HD stack up.
>
>Yes and as with bicycles use and selection vary. As we say
>here, "YMMV". They're just different.
>
>A very well designed and useful cargo bicycle, as Mr Strobl
>linked, is a poor choice for any road race event short or long.

As I said, "They all seem to serve pretty well at what they were
designed and built to do."

zen cycle <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/25/2024 6:16 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> floriduh dumbass <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Seems to me that most of the BMW motorcycles, as well as most of the
>>> HD bikes are the two-wheeled versions of the big, heavy four door
>>> sedans of the 1970s.
>>>
>>> When it comes to performance bikes, neither BMW of HD stack up.
>>>
>> To be fair neither is designed as such,
>
> Not designed for performance, you say?
>
> https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/bmw/m1000rr/2023/
>
> "BMW’s ‘homologation special’ M1000RR superbike model has been around
> since 2021 and it’s the bike that forms the basis of their factory WSB
> racer. In simple terms it’s a BMW S1000RR on steroids with a race-ready
> engine ripe for tuning. But TT wins aside it hasn’t had the success BMW
> would’ve have liked on track, so for 2023 they produced a new version."
>
> " At 186mph, downforce on the wings increases from 16.3kg to 22.6kg,"
>
> 0-60 in 3 secs puts it on par with most street-legal "super bikes"

Indeed but that’s not what folks buy, BMW in general is touring or sports
touring, ie folks buying “super bikes” etc will be mostly the big Japanese
brands, maybe a honourable mention of Ducati.

I suspect same will be true of of Pinarello’s MTB while made I’d be fairly
surprised to see any on the trails or even local XC races.

https://pinarello.com/uk/en/bikes/mtb

>
> 'don't stack up'...indeed...
>
> It's not like they don't have experience at it either. BMW motorcyles
> have a racing legacy nearly century old:
> https://www.roadracingworld.com/news/bmw-introduces-2023-m-1000-rr-50-years-m-anniversary-edition/
>
> "Legendary names from those early years include Ernst Jakob Henne who
> set no less than 76 world land speed records between 1929 and 1937 on
> supercharged BMW motorcycles and Georg “Schorsch” Meier who won the 1939
> Senior Tourist Trophy on the Isle of Man on his 500cc supercharged BMW."
>
>
>
Roger Merriman

On Wed Apr 24 15:17:52 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/24/2024 10:13 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
> > On 4/24/2024 9:59 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>
> >> Harleys are fairly limited motor bikes, with their weight and size. fine
> >> for burbling along big open roads, but absolute handful with slower
> >> narrower roads, even more so than larger super bikes which are also a
> >> handful but are significantly lighter and smaller bikes.
> >>
> >> Ie folks I?ve known with Harleys have been careful where they ride
> >> them as
> >> they don?t want to drop them in the lanes, which being narrow steep, with
> >> all sorts of cambers and surfaces it?s not a unreasonable worry.
> >
> > LOL...right, Harley's weren't designed for the English countryside....
>
> Some years ago we stayed for several days at a hotel in Paris, and I had
> friendly conversation with one of the desk clerks. He liked our folding
> bikes, but became especially friendly when given a chance to talk about
> his multiple motorcycles.
>
> Among several sport bikes, he had one Harley Davidson. I said "But
> Harleys are so primitive!" He said "That's why we like them!"
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
>

Perhaps you'd like to explain to us what is primative about a Harley? You're supposed to have taught mechanical engineering so that should be simple enough.

On 4/25/2024 7:09 AM, zen cycle wrote:
> On 4/25/2024 6:16 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> floriduh dumbass <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Seems to me that most of the BMW motorcycles, as well as most of the
>>> HD bikes are the two-wheeled versions of the big, heavy four door
>>> sedans of the 1970s.
>>>
>>> When it comes to performance bikes, neither BMW of HD stack up.
>>>
>> To be fair neither is designed as such,
>
> Not designed for performance, you say?
>
> https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/bmw/m1000rr/2023/
>
> "BMW’s ‘homologation special’ M1000RR superbike model has been around
> since 2021 and it’s the bike that forms the basis of their factory WSB
> racer. In simple terms it’s a BMW S1000RR on steroids with a race-ready
> engine ripe for tuning. But TT wins aside it hasn’t had the success BMW
> would’ve have liked on track, so for 2023 they produced a new version."
>
> " At 186mph, downforce on the wings increases from 16.3kg to 22.6kg,"
>
> 0-60 in 3 secs puts it on par with most street-legal "super bikes"
>
> 'don't stack up'...indeed...
>
> It's not like they don't have experience at it either. BMW motorcyles
> have a racing legacy nearly century old:
> https://www.roadracingworld.com/news/bmw-introduces-2023-m-1000-rr-50-years-m-anniversary-edition/
>
> "Legendary names from those early years include Ernst Jakob Henne who
> set no less than 76 world land speed records between 1929 and 1937 on
> supercharged BMW motorcycles and Georg “Schorsch” Meier who won the 1939
> Senior Tourist Trophy on the Isle of Man on his 500cc supercharged BMW."

First, my crack about BMW vs. Harley was a joke. Those who took it
seriously need a sense of humor transplant, as well as other help.

Second, BMW like most manufacturers have long had a range of models,
with different characteristics. Some are for heavy touring. Some are
scandalously fast.

Third, back in the era when my now-antique BMW was made, it and its kin
were often considered to be the most reliable and longest lived
motorcycles available. BMW used to give little awards to those whose
bikes had accumulated 100,000 miles. And 200,000 miles. Justified or
not, that influenced my decision to buy and resurrect this bike.

I was also drawn to the relative simplicity. It has a wiring diagram I
can understand. Its maintenance requirements are few. And its
performance far exceeds anything I'd ever need. I see no sense in buying
a 150 mph machine to ride on 55 mph to 75 mph roads.

YMMV.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 11:24:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 4/25/2024 7:09 AM, zen cycle wrote:
>> On 4/25/2024 6:16 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> floriduh dumbass <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Seems to me that most of the BMW motorcycles, as well as most of the
>>>> HD bikes are the two-wheeled versions of the big, heavy four door
>>>> sedans of the 1970s.
>>>>
>>>> When it comes to performance bikes, neither BMW of HD stack up.
>>>>
>>> To be fair neither is designed as such,
>>
>> Not designed for performance, you say?
>>
>> https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/bmw/m1000rr/2023/
>>
>> "BMW’s ‘homologation special’ M1000RR superbike model has been around
>> since 2021 and it’s the bike that forms the basis of their factory WSB
>> racer. In simple terms it’s a BMW S1000RR on steroids with a race-ready
>> engine ripe for tuning. But TT wins aside it hasn’t had the success BMW
>> would’ve have liked on track, so for 2023 they produced a new version."
>>
>> " At 186mph, downforce on the wings increases from 16.3kg to 22.6kg,"
>>
>> 0-60 in 3 secs puts it on par with most street-legal "super bikes"
>>
>> 'don't stack up'...indeed...
>>
>> It's not like they don't have experience at it either. BMW motorcyles
>> have a racing legacy nearly century old:
>> https://www.roadracingworld.com/news/bmw-introduces-2023-m-1000-rr-50-years-m-anniversary-edition/
>>
>> "Legendary names from those early years include Ernst Jakob Henne who
>> set no less than 76 world land speed records between 1929 and 1937 on
>> supercharged BMW motorcycles and Georg “Schorsch” Meier who won the 1939
>> Senior Tourist Trophy on the Isle of Man on his 500cc supercharged BMW."
>
>First, my crack about BMW vs. Harley was a joke. Those who took it
>seriously need a sense of humor transplant, as well as other help.
>
>Second, BMW like most manufacturers have long had a range of models,
>with different characteristics. Some are for heavy touring. Some are
>scandalously fast.
>
>Third, back in the era when my now-antique BMW was made, it and its kin
>were often considered to be the most reliable and longest lived
>motorcycles available. BMW used to give little awards to those whose
>bikes had accumulated 100,000 miles. And 200,000 miles. Justified or
>not, that influenced my decision to buy and resurrect this bike.
>
>I was also drawn to the relative simplicity. It has a wiring diagram I
>can understand. Its maintenance requirements are few. And its
>performance far exceeds anything I'd ever need. I see no sense in buying
>a 150 mph machine to ride on 55 mph to 75 mph roads.
>
>YMMV.

Who ever rode a motorcycle 55 MPH on a 75 MPH road? Will a motorcycle
even go that slow?

The reason I stopped riding motorcycles was because I had trouble
holding my speed down and not making dangerous moves.

Am Wed, 24 Apr 2024 22:18:17 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:

>Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>> Am Wed, 24 Apr 2024 13:59:55 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>
>>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>>> Am Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:43:07 -0400 schrieb Catrike Ryder
>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 21:29:50 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Arriving at the lights with an annoyingly ridden E hire bike and a
>>>>>> motorbike. The Motorbike from experience would easily out accelerate me,
>>>>>> the E bike while faster than say a roadie is comfortably within my ability
>>>>>> to out accelerate and also out pace. They where one of many E bikes that I
>>>>>> passed, I passed no motorcycles they all passed me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a bigger difference between a Honda 125cc and a Harley
>>>>> Davidson than between an ebike and the Honda 125cc
>>>>
>>>> That's an interesting statement. I happen to still own a 125ccm Honda
>>>> (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Wave_series>, called ANF 125
>>>> Innova in Germany) and happen to agree. But why do I agree? What do you
>>>> people think?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Can you lift it one handed?
>>
>You’re being frankly ridiculous.

That's indeed what I thought when reading your question above.

>
>Fine you don’t like e bikes,

You're mistaken, again. I have a well-founded opinion about ebikes that
has nothing to do with “liking” or "not liking" the concept. What I do
not like is the current series of implementations, a law and regulations
in Germany and most European countries that wrongly equates some
overpowered, but crippled electrically motorized bikes with human
powered bicycles, with those ebikes now having a motor drives and
batteries that easily triple the power and endurance of your average non
competetive cyclist, while slowing them down, both short term and in the
long run.

Short term, because 25 km/h is a lot less than what a healthy cyclist on
a decent bike can do on flat ground (most trips are short and on flat
ground), long term by essentially eliminating most of the the
unavoidable training effects of human powered cycling.

In addition, I do not like the fact that this law essentially has closed
the window for better ebikes, ebikes that could have significantly
extended speed and range even for strong cyclists for both short and
long trips, instead of crippling most of their users by motivating them
not to use and so enhance their own power for getting around. This means
acting according to the "lose it" part of the motto "use it or lose it".

>and yes some in America and Germany are
>bordering on being mopeds, that that wasn’t the subject at hand, hence I’ve
>returned it to remind you.

So scroll back to your initial posting and my initial comment. Subject
was an article reporting a uk proposal to double the average ebike power
from 250 to 500 W and to completely remove that "pedal assist" bicycle
simulation, at the same time, and so making these into an enhanced
version of the former mopeds. The linked article reported about fears,
that this might trigger later attempts to actually regulate these
vehicles like mopeds.

In my opinion, the current generation of 250 Watt ebikes already got
similar to mopeds over time and aren't what people like to believe,
anymore. When 250 Watt ebikes came into existence in Germany, without
regulation at first, the narrative was something like "up to 250 W
additional motor power, but only up to what the pedaling human delivers,
progressively reduced from 100% to 0 %, when aproaching 25 km/h". With
other words, what sensible persons already identified as a vehicle more
resembling a better Velo Solex than a human powered bicyle - but a lot
less powerfull as what currently is sold as a 25 km/h ebike.

Chatter about doubling the rated continuous power to 500W and about
fears that _this_ could lead to regulating all ebikes as mopeds is
merely a distraction from recognicing the fact that even the first 250W
ebikes should never have been classified as bicycles.

But maybe it's just a screwed form to confirm exactly that.

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions