https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-is-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69

Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
the dark.

Bitcoin mining is insane. AI, probably, too.

On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:

>
>https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-is-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>
>Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>the dark.
>
>Bitcoin mining is insane. AI, probably, too.

All those wankers that bought electric cars.

>
>

On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 21:22:44 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-is-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>>
>>Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>>the dark.
>>
>>Bitcoin mining is insane. AI, probably, too.
>
>All those wankers that bought electric cars.
>
>>
>>

Imagine
all electric cars
all electric house and hot water heating
no nukes
no coal
no ng
destroy hydro dams

Imagine lots of darkness.

On 8/03/2024 8:37 am, john larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 21:22:44 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-is-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>>>
>>> Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>>> the dark.
>>>
>>> Bitcoin mining is insane. AI, probably, too.
>>
>> All those wankers that bought electric cars.
> Imagine
> all electric cars

Would mean that the US would need 30% more generating capacity than it
has now.

> all electric house and hot water heating

Sounds sensible.

> no nukes

Very sensible - they take ages to build and produce very expensive
electricity.

> no coal

Equally sensible. Wind and solar both produce electricity at a lower
price per kilowatt hour.

> no ng

Less sensible. Burning natural gas doesn't produce cheap electricity
either, but you can turn on a natural gas fired turbine generator in a
few minutes, on those rare occasions when you need it. Grid scale
storage is a better solution, but it may take a while to install enough
of it. Even longer if the fossil carbon extraction industry can slow it
down.

> destroy hydro dams

Why would you do that?

> Imagine lots of darkness.

The fossil carbon extraction industry does a lot of that. They imagine a
smaller market for their product, and smaller cash flows, and lie like
fury to delay the inevitable.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:

>
>https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-is-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>
>Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>the dark.

Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear power plants.
They still have to find locations for 3, what if next doors?? ??

On 3/8/24 07:40, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
>
>>
>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-is-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>>
>> Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>> the dark.
>
> Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear power plants.
> They still have to find locations for 3, what if next doors?? ??

These are planned to be the --now old-fashioned-- Westinghouse
design? Big installations that need ten years to build?

I wonder if it wouldn't be better to start an industry of
small modular reactors. Tens of megawatts rather than hundreds,
Something that could fit on a barge, or a train, transported
where it's needed, and up and running in months rather than
years.

Jeroen Belleman

On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 10:22:29 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

>On 3/8/24 07:40, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>
>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-is-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>>>
>>> Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>>> the dark.
>>
>> Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear power plants.
>> They still have to find locations for 3, what if next doors?? ??
>
>These are planned to be the --now old-fashioned-- Westinghouse
>design? Big installations that need ten years to build?
>
>I wonder if it wouldn't be better to start an industry of
>small modular reactors. Tens of megawatts rather than hundreds,
>Something that could fit on a barge, or a train, transported
>where it's needed, and up and running in months rather than
>years.

Already in development!

https://www.rolls-royce.com/innovation/small-modular-reactors.aspx#/

On 8/03/2024 8:22 pm, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> On 3/8/24 07:40, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in
>> <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>
>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-is-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>>>
>>> Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>>> the dark.
>>
>> Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new
>> nuclear power plants.
>> They still have to find locations for 3, what if next doors?? ??
>
> These are planned to be the --now old-fashioned-- Westinghouse
> design? Big installations that need ten years to build?
>
> I wonder if it wouldn't be better to start an industry of
> small modular reactors. Tens of megawatts rather than hundreds,
> Something that could fit on a barge, or a train, transported
> where it's needed, and up and running in months rather than
> years.

Except that they don't exist yet. The technology that could create small
modular reactors does exist. The production lines that could churn them
out in months doesn't and would have to be built, and only after the
modular reactors themselves had been designed.

The small reactors that go into nuclear submarines and nuclear powered
aircraft carriers were designed a long time ago under very different
constraints.

If they really were going to produce cheaper electric power than wind
turbines and solar cells, somebody probably would have designed them by
now. In fact a few people have, but the designs haven't been attractive
enough get the kind of start-up capital required, and probably never
will be.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 8/03/2024 9:40 pm, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 10:22:29 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>
>> On 3/8/24 07:40, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-is-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>>>>
>>>> Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>>>> the dark.
>>>
>>> Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear power plants.
>>> They still have to find locations for 3, what if next doors?? ??
>>
>> These are planned to be the --now old-fashioned-- Westinghouse
>> design? Big installations that need ten years to build?
>>
>> I wonder if it wouldn't be better to start an industry of
>> small modular reactors. Tens of megawatts rather than hundreds,
>> Something that could fit on a barge, or a train, transported
>> where it's needed, and up and running in months rather than
>> years.
>
> Already in development!
>
> https://www.rolls-royce.com/innovation/small-modular-reactors.aspx#/

Not exactly.

"By design, our SMR is focused on attracting all forms of private
capital to support the build out of global SMR demand. With a proven
factory built commoditised approach, our SMR will offer investors and
lenders a degree of confidence that will enable future customers to
access a range of capital options to finance their SMR purchase."

They've got as far as having a proposition that they hope will attract
private capital. There's no suggestion that they have attracted any yet,
let along enough to cover the cost of building a whole production line.

It's a pipe-dream.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 3/8/24 11:40, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 10:22:29 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>
>> On 3/8/24 07:40, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-is-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>>>>
>>>> Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>>>> the dark.
>>>
>>> Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear power plants.
>>> They still have to find locations for 3, what if next doors?? ??
>>
>> These are planned to be the --now old-fashioned-- Westinghouse
>> design? Big installations that need ten years to build?
>>
>> I wonder if it wouldn't be better to start an industry of
>> small modular reactors. Tens of megawatts rather than hundreds,
>> Something that could fit on a barge, or a train, transported
>> where it's needed, and up and running in months rather than
>> years.
>
> Already in development!
>
> https://www.rolls-royce.com/innovation/small-modular-reactors.aspx#/

Hmm, This comes across as an attempt to seduce investors and
greenies. Not much substance there.

Jeroen Belleman

Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

> On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
>
> >
> >https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-i
> >s-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
> >
> >Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
> >the dark.
>
> Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear
> power plants. They still have to find locations for 3, what if next
> doors?? ??

Can they find enough high ground to keep them clear of flooding if
things go badly wrong?

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Mar 2024 12:23:16 +0000) it happened
liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote in
<1qq3oyk.wpq4jr3mtoe8N%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>:

>Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
>>
>> >
>> >https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-i
>> >s-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>> >
>> >Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>> >the dark.
>>
>> Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear
>> power plants. They still have to find locations for 3, what if next
>> doors?? ??
>
>Can they find enough high ground to keep them clear of flooding if
>things go badly wrong?

Good question
https://www.dutchnews.nl/2024/03/mps-back-call-to-build-four-new-nuclear-power-plants-in-nl/
there is risk of flooding all over this country, dikes with pumps protect it.
OTOH things have been working with ups and downs since 1960 or so..
The one in Petten is mainly used for radioisotope creation for cancer treatment,
and a few MW for electricity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petten_nuclear_reactor

The one in Borsele has about 485 MW:
https://www.borsele.nl/kerncentrale-borssele
I am used to radioactive fallout, we had some from Tjernobyl here..
my radiation meter logs 24/7 and has an alarm function....

On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Mar 2024 10:22:29 +0100) it happened Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <usela5$1jtre$1@dont-email.me>:

>On 3/8/24 07:40, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>
>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-is-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>>>
>>> Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>>> the dark.
>>
>> Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear power plants.
>> They still have to find locations for 3, what if next doors?? ??
>
>These are planned to be the --now old-fashioned-- Westinghouse
>design? Big installations that need ten years to build?
>
>I wonder if it wouldn't be better to start an industry of
>small modular reactors. Tens of megawatts rather than hundreds,
>Something that could fit on a barge, or a train, transported
>where it's needed, and up and running in months rather than
>years.

Yes, Russia has a ship with a nuclear power plant that powers some city somewhere,
no risk of flooding then :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_floating_nuclear_power_station
OTOH ever more power is needed, so a big nuclear power plant makes sense.

On 8/03/2024 11:23 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>
>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-i
>>> s-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>>>
>>> Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>>> the dark.
>>
>> Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear
>> power plants. They still have to find locations for 3, what if next
>> doors?? ??
>
> Can they find enough high ground to keep them clear of flooding if
> things go badly wrong?

There's plenty of the Netherlands that is actually above sea level.

Where I used to live in Nijmegen was 30 metres above the sea level at
Amsterdam. Admittedly, when I lived there, the Rhine did flood, and some
of my colleagues were thinking about moving stuff into my basement, but
you wouldn't put a nuclear reactor on a site that was susceptible to
flooding, and the Dutch do know which sites are susceptible to flooding.

Their current minister for science

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbert_Dijkgraaf

has a surname which means that one of his ancestors was responsible for
making sure that the dikes in his area were up to snuff. The title
"graaf" is roughly equivalent to "count" or "earl", but a dijkgraaf was
more a functional title than an aristocratic rank.

The man himself is something of an intellectual aristocrat, but didn't
act like one when I met him. Perfectly agreeable.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Fri, 08 Mar 2024 06:40:12 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

>On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
><jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
>
>>
>>https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-is-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>>
>>Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>>the dark.
>
>Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear power plants.
>They still have to find locations for 3, what if next doors?? ??

Pick a region and tell the locals that they can have a reactor or no
electricity. Let them vote.

Near the ocean would be good for cooling.

On Fri, 08 Mar 2024 10:40:26 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 10:22:29 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
><jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>
>>On 3/8/24 07:40, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-is-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>>>>
>>>> Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>>>> the dark.
>>>
>>> Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear power plants.
>>> They still have to find locations for 3, what if next doors?? ??
>>
>>These are planned to be the --now old-fashioned-- Westinghouse
>>design? Big installations that need ten years to build?
>>
>>I wonder if it wouldn't be better to start an industry of
>>small modular reactors. Tens of megawatts rather than hundreds,
>>Something that could fit on a barge, or a train, transported
>>where it's needed, and up and running in months rather than
>>years.
>
>Already in development!
>
>https://www.rolls-royce.com/innovation/small-modular-reactors.aspx#/

It's really not a technical problem. The public has an irrational fear
of radiation.

Nukes work fine in France. Actually, they work fine most everywhere
else.

SMRs sound cool, but need to be hardened against greenie saboteurs.

They should be supported by a good fuel recycling/disposal
infrastructure, which, again, is not really a technical problem.

On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 12:26:01 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

>On 3/8/24 11:40, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>> On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 10:22:29 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
>> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/8/24 07:40, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-is-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>>>>>
>>>>> Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>>>>> the dark.
>>>>
>>>> Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear power plants.
>>>> They still have to find locations for 3, what if next doors?? ??
>>>
>>> These are planned to be the --now old-fashioned-- Westinghouse
>>> design? Big installations that need ten years to build?
>>>
>>> I wonder if it wouldn't be better to start an industry of
>>> small modular reactors. Tens of megawatts rather than hundreds,
>>> Something that could fit on a barge, or a train, transported
>>> where it's needed, and up and running in months rather than
>>> years.
>>
>> Already in development!
>>
>> https://www.rolls-royce.com/innovation/small-modular-reactors.aspx#/
>
>Hmm, This comes across as an attempt to seduce investors and
>greenies. Not much substance there.
>
>Jeroen Belleman

It's inherent that nearly all useful industries were and are funded by
private investment. And I wouldn't expect RR to post their detailed
reactor drawings online.

You can elect to not invest.

On Fri, 08 Mar 2024 13:15:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

>On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Mar 2024 10:22:29 +0100) it happened Jeroen Belleman
><jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <usela5$1jtre$1@dont-email.me>:
>
>>On 3/8/24 07:40, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-is-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>>>>
>>>> Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>>>> the dark.
>>>
>>> Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear power plants.
>>> They still have to find locations for 3, what if next doors?? ??
>>
>>These are planned to be the --now old-fashioned-- Westinghouse
>>design? Big installations that need ten years to build?
>>
>>I wonder if it wouldn't be better to start an industry of
>>small modular reactors. Tens of megawatts rather than hundreds,
>>Something that could fit on a barge, or a train, transported
>>where it's needed, and up and running in months rather than
>>years.
>
>Yes, Russia has a ship with a nuclear power plant that powers some city somewhere,
>no risk of flooding then :-)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_floating_nuclear_power_station
>OTOH ever more power is needed, so a big nuclear power plant makes sense.

Why not lots of smaller ones? They could be phased in incrementally,
quickly, where and when needed.

The politics are good. Do you want electricity? Find us a few acres
for an SMR.

On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 12:23:16 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

>Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
>>
>> >
>> >https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-i
>> >s-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>> >
>> >Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>> >the dark.
>>
>> Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear
>> power plants. They still have to find locations for 3, what if next
>> doors?? ??
>
>Can they find enough high ground to keep them clear of flooding if
>things go badly wrong?

There are places in the Netherlands that are over a hundred feet above
sea level! There is even a ski area!

https://www.skiresort.info/ski-resort/snowworld-landgraaf/

Check out the webcam. Not much danger of wandering off track and
freezing to death in the woods, which sometimes happens here.

ASML is only 62 feet above sea level.

Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

> On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Mar 2024 12:23:16 +0000) it happened
> liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote in
> <1qq3oyk.wpq4jr3mtoe8N%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>:
>
> >Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
> >> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-i
> >> >s-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
> >> >
> >> >Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
> >> >the dark.
> >>
> >> Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear
> >> power plants. They still have to find locations for 3, what if next
> >> doors?? ??
> >
> >Can they find enough high ground to keep them clear of flooding if
> >things go badly wrong?
>
> Good question
> https://www.dutchnews.nl/2024/03/mps-back-call-to-build-four-new-nuclear-p
> ower-plants-in-nl/ there is risk of flooding all over this country, dikes
> with pumps protect it. OTOH things have been working with ups and downs
> since 1960 or so..

Unfortunately the possibility of some malevolent power flooding the
country (or at least using the threat of that as a way of holding Europe
to ransom) is no longer the negligible risk we once thought it was.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Mar 2024 15:24:46 +0000) it happened
liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote in
<1qq3x9g.1qopcx31ybd9guN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>:

>Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Mar 2024 12:23:16 +0000) it happened
>> liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote in
>> <1qq3oyk.wpq4jr3mtoe8N%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>:
>>
>> >Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>> >> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-i
>> >> >s-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>> >> >
>> >> >Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>> >> >the dark.
>> >>
>> >> Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear
>> >> power plants. They still have to find locations for 3, what if next
>> >> doors?? ??
>> >
>> >Can they find enough high ground to keep them clear of flooding if
>> >things go badly wrong?
>>
>> Good question
>> https://www.dutchnews.nl/2024/03/mps-back-call-to-build-four-new-nuclear-p
>> ower-plants-in-nl/ there is risk of flooding all over this country, dikes
>> with pumps protect it. OTOH things have been working with ups and downs
>> since 1960 or so..
>
>Unfortunately the possibility of some malevolent power flooding the
>country (or at least using the threat of that as a way of holding Europe
>to ransom) is no longer the negligible risk we once thought it was.

Indeed, and flooding was used in WW2 against German invasion at some point.

I do think nuking Leeuwarden mil airport (12 km or so from where I live) where F35 is stationed now
and maybe stores some nukes, could be a target for say Russia (or America ;-) ).
https://panteltje.nl/pub/first_F35_lands_at_Leeuwarden_airport_IXIMG_0212.JPG
I used to bike there and watch the planes.... F16s at that time, takeoff and land,
many people there, air-shows too sometimes... 2 F16 crashed over the years close to here.
some people with radios there follow air traffic and tower conversation.
The water level in the canals and fields in and around Amsterdam is controlled by a central computer,
did some design for something there years ago.
I am sure it can be hacked or if power goes....

On a sunny day (Fri, 08 Mar 2024 07:09:39 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ebamui94of6duifghmb6jnen11060l4dlv@4ax.com>:

>On Fri, 08 Mar 2024 13:15:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Mar 2024 10:22:29 +0100) it happened Jeroen Belleman
>><jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <usela5$1jtre$1@dont-email.me>:
>>
>>>On 3/8/24 07:40, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-is-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>>>>>
>>>>> Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>>>>> the dark.
>>>>
>>>> Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear power plants.
>>>> They still have to find locations for 3, what if next doors?? ??
>>>
>>>These are planned to be the --now old-fashioned-- Westinghouse
>>>design? Big installations that need ten years to build?
>>>
>>>I wonder if it wouldn't be better to start an industry of
>>>small modular reactors. Tens of megawatts rather than hundreds,
>>>Something that could fit on a barge, or a train, transported
>>>where it's needed, and up and running in months rather than
>>>years.
>>
>>Yes, Russia has a ship with a nuclear power plant that powers some city somewhere,
>>no risk of flooding then :-)
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_floating_nuclear_power_station
>>OTOH ever more power is needed, so a big nuclear power plant makes sense.
>
>Why not lots of smaller ones? They could be phased in incrementally,
>quickly, where and when needed.
>
>The politics are good. Do you want electricity? Find us a few acres
>for an SMR.

The more the harder security is.
Some idiots a few days ago did set fire to a HV mast in Germany to prevent Tesla from expanding there.
It also cut power to some other large company and caused shortages.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/business/tesla-germany-factory-fire.html
It would be cool if they got small fusion reactors working.
One for in each car?

On Fri, 08 Mar 2024 16:01:56 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

>On a sunny day (Fri, 08 Mar 2024 07:09:39 -0800) it happened John Larkin
><jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ebamui94of6duifghmb6jnen11060l4dlv@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Fri, 08 Mar 2024 13:15:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Mar 2024 10:22:29 +0100) it happened Jeroen Belleman
>>><jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <usela5$1jtre$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>
>>>>On 3/8/24 07:40, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>>>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-is-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>>>>>> the dark.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear power plants.
>>>>> They still have to find locations for 3, what if next doors?? ??
>>>>
>>>>These are planned to be the --now old-fashioned-- Westinghouse
>>>>design? Big installations that need ten years to build?
>>>>
>>>>I wonder if it wouldn't be better to start an industry of
>>>>small modular reactors. Tens of megawatts rather than hundreds,
>>>>Something that could fit on a barge, or a train, transported
>>>>where it's needed, and up and running in months rather than
>>>>years.
>>>
>>>Yes, Russia has a ship with a nuclear power plant that powers some city somewhere,
>>>no risk of flooding then :-)
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_floating_nuclear_power_station
>>>OTOH ever more power is needed, so a big nuclear power plant makes sense.
>>
>>Why not lots of smaller ones? They could be phased in incrementally,
>>quickly, where and when needed.
>>
>>The politics are good. Do you want electricity? Find us a few acres
>>for an SMR.
>
>The more the harder security is.
>Some idiots a few days ago did set fire to a HV mast in Germany to prevent Tesla from expanding there.
>It also cut power to some other large company and caused shortages.
> https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/business/tesla-germany-factory-fire.html
>
>It would be cool if they got small fusion reactors working.
>One for in each car?

So far, fusion doesn't look like it will work in anything smaller than
a star.

Cars work fine on gasoline, or almost even on batteries. It doesn't
make sense for a 100lb person to move 3 tons of steel with them to the
drugstore, but market forces will fix that.

On Fri, 08 Mar 2024 16:01:56 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

>On a sunny day (Fri, 08 Mar 2024 07:09:39 -0800) it happened John Larkin
><jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ebamui94of6duifghmb6jnen11060l4dlv@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Fri, 08 Mar 2024 13:15:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Mar 2024 10:22:29 +0100) it happened Jeroen Belleman
>>><jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <usela5$1jtre$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>
>>>>On 3/8/24 07:40, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>>>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-is-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>>>>>> the dark.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear power plants.
>>>>> They still have to find locations for 3, what if next doors?? ??
>>>>
>>>>These are planned to be the --now old-fashioned-- Westinghouse
>>>>design? Big installations that need ten years to build?
>>>>
>>>>I wonder if it wouldn't be better to start an industry of
>>>>small modular reactors. Tens of megawatts rather than hundreds,
>>>>Something that could fit on a barge, or a train, transported
>>>>where it's needed, and up and running in months rather than
>>>>years.
>>>
>>>Yes, Russia has a ship with a nuclear power plant that powers some city somewhere,
>>>no risk of flooding then :-)
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_floating_nuclear_power_station
>>>OTOH ever more power is needed, so a big nuclear power plant makes sense.
>>
>>Why not lots of smaller ones? They could be phased in incrementally,
>>quickly, where and when needed.
>>
>>The politics are good. Do you want electricity? Find us a few acres
>>for an SMR.
>
>The more the harder security is.
>Some idiots a few days ago did set fire to a HV mast in Germany to prevent Tesla from expanding there.
>It also cut power to some other large company and caused shortages.
> https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/business/tesla-germany-factory-fire.html
>
>It would be cool if they got small fusion reactors working.
>One for in each car?

That might appease the Greenies, but the Watermellons would still try
to sabotage them.
In the UK at least, nuclear power plants are guarded by armed police.
They're keen to ensure no fuel is stolen and subsequently enriched.
The same would have to be done for small reactors anyway, so that
should give the 'mellons something to think about.

On 3/8/24 18:59, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Mar 2024 16:01:56 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On a sunny day (Fri, 08 Mar 2024 07:09:39 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <ebamui94of6duifghmb6jnen11060l4dlv@4ax.com>:
>>
>>> On Fri, 08 Mar 2024 13:15:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Mar 2024 10:22:29 +0100) it happened Jeroen Belleman
>>>> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <usela5$1jtre$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/8/24 07:40, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 07 Mar 2024 07:13:56 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>>>>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <h8mjui5kf50de3tkplpf1e12k12r8dgl58@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amid-explosive-demand-america-is-running-out-of-power/ar-BB1jtM69
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Increasing demand and declining reliable supply could put people in
>>>>>>> the dark.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yesterday I was reading Netherlands gov has decided to build 4 new nuclear power plants.
>>>>>> They still have to find locations for 3, what if next doors?? ??
>>>>>
>>>>> These are planned to be the --now old-fashioned-- Westinghouse
>>>>> design? Big installations that need ten years to build?
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder if it wouldn't be better to start an industry of
>>>>> small modular reactors. Tens of megawatts rather than hundreds,
>>>>> Something that could fit on a barge, or a train, transported
>>>>> where it's needed, and up and running in months rather than
>>>>> years.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Russia has a ship with a nuclear power plant that powers some city somewhere,
>>>> no risk of flooding then :-)
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_floating_nuclear_power_station
>>>> OTOH ever more power is needed, so a big nuclear power plant makes sense.
>>>
>>> Why not lots of smaller ones? They could be phased in incrementally,
>>> quickly, where and when needed.
>>>
>>> The politics are good. Do you want electricity? Find us a few acres
>>> for an SMR.
>>
>> The more the harder security is.
>> Some idiots a few days ago did set fire to a HV mast in Germany to prevent Tesla from expanding there.
>> It also cut power to some other large company and caused shortages.
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/business/tesla-germany-factory-fire.html
>>
>> It would be cool if they got small fusion reactors working.
>> One for in each car?
>
> That might appease the Greenies, but the Watermellons would still try
> to sabotage them.
> In the UK at least, nuclear power plants are guarded by armed police.
> They're keen to ensure no fuel is stolen and subsequently enriched.
> The same would have to be done for small reactors anyway, so that
> should give the 'mellons something to think about.

It would be nice if we could make nuclear energy on the scale
required for a single household economically viable. Everyone
has his own little self-contained nuclear device in a hole in
the cellar, producing heat and electricity enough to provide
for the needs of the home and the means of transport over 30
years or so, each unit providing something like 10 to 50 kilowatts,
heat and electricity combined. When it's worn, it gets replaced by
a new one. I'm just dreaming. It's not likely to ever happen.
Even if it'd be technically possible, the economy wouldn't work.

Jeroen Belleman