On 2023-05-28 03:55, geoff wrote:
> On 28/05/2023 3:33 am, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-05-26 22:17, geoff wrote:
>>> On 27/05/2023 6:10 am, Alfred Molon wrote:
>>>> Am 26.05.2023 um 19:55 schrieb Alan Browne:
>>>>> On 2023-05-22 12:22, Alfred Molon wrote:
>>>>>> Am 22.05.2023 um 12:46 schrieb RichA:
>>>>>>> this fad might die.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder why millenials haven't yet discovered usenet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some have never
>>>>> - written a cheque
>>>>> - used a typewriter
>>>>> - dialed a phone number
>>>>> - sent a letter by mail
>>>>>
>>>>> and much more ...
>>>>
>>>> My kids have never seen a phone with the rotating dial and don't
>>>> know what a fax is.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I've said before, I have a green STC 726 with rotary dial that still
>>> dials and bells ring over fibre !
>>
>> The fibre has to be converted to electrical at some point for this to
>> work.
>
> Yes, that happens in the home at the ONT (optical network terminator).
> Just sticking a fibre into your computer or LAN or whatever can't happen.

Yep. Interestingly, my ONT accepts pulse dialing, so a rotary phone
works. I was surprised when I found out. Apparently, it is not my ONT only.

The snag is that it doesn't have a battery backup, I had to install a
mains UPS. I understand some ONTs have battery, but my ISP doesn't
install those.

>
> This particular ONT (totally default install here, NZ) understands 50VDC
> phone lines, decadic pulse dialling (yes and tapping it out on the
> switch-hook), DTMF dialling, and 80V ringing.
>>
>> I can still dial a phone w/o a dial.  Just slamming the hook at the
>> right pace and count...
>
> Dunno about 'slamming'. Tapping with your finger the right number of
> pulses, fast enough, does.

Hannibal Lecter illustrated the procedure :-D

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2023-05-28 07:06, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-05-26 19:53, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-05-22 13:12, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-05-22 18:48, nospam wrote:
>>>> In article <fFMaM.1297747$alff.538965@fx07.ams1>, Alfred Molon
>>>> <alfred_molon@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder why millenials haven't yet discovered usenet.
>>>>
>>>> because web forums are far more capable, with far more traffic.
>>>
>>> Huh, no, they are not more capable. You need lots more resources to
>>> handle the same traffic on a web forum machine than on an nntp machine.
>>
>>  From the user's perspective, web based forums can be far more capable.
>
> True.
>
> Well... also depends.
>
> If one is at a location with limited connectivity, a web forum can be
> problematic. One also needs a more powerful computer.

Yeah, it's rough on the old Sinclair ...

>
> Keeping a local copy of the messages (many, not a few) is also a
> problem, depending on the site.

There is less and less need for local copies - most web based forums
keep stuff essentially forever. After all the user content is still
very sparse compared to how it is displayed.

--
“If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything."
-Ronald Coase

On 2023-05-28 15:04, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-05-28 07:06, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-05-26 19:53, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2023-05-22 13:12, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2023-05-22 18:48, nospam wrote:
>>>>> In article <fFMaM.1297747$alff.538965@fx07.ams1>, Alfred Molon
>>>>> <alfred_molon@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder why millenials haven't yet discovered usenet.
>>>>>
>>>>> because web forums are far more capable, with far more traffic.
>>>>
>>>> Huh, no, they are not more capable. You need lots more resources to
>>>> handle the same traffic on a web forum machine than on an nntp machine.
>>>
>>>  From the user's perspective, web based forums can be far more capable.
>>
>> True.
>>
>> Well... also depends.
>>
>> If one is at a location with limited connectivity, a web forum can be
>> problematic. One also needs a more powerful computer.
>
> Yeah, it's rough on the old Sinclair ...
>
>
>>
>> Keeping a local copy of the messages (many, not a few) is also a
>> problem, depending on the site.
>
> There is less and less need for local copies - most web based forums
> keep stuff essentially forever.  After all the user content is still
> very sparse compared to how it is displayed.
>

Not for ever... I happened to know some admins handling a webforum (the
ones that actually handle the machine, not the those that deal with the
users), and software updates were something to fear. They used
vBulletin. They migrated to Discourse, and I remember the admins had to
work hard in advance with the database backend because old messages used
a different locale and did not translate well.

Oh, the old forum had a hand crafted gateway to an nntp server.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_(software)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VBulletin

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2023-05-28 15:04, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-05-28 15:04, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-05-28 07:06, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-05-26 19:53, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2023-05-22 13:12, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-05-22 18:48, nospam wrote:
>>>>>> In article <fFMaM.1297747$alff.538965@fx07.ams1>, Alfred Molon
>>>>>> <alfred_molon@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder why millenials haven't yet discovered usenet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> because web forums are far more capable, with far more traffic.
>>>>>
>>>>> Huh, no, they are not more capable. You need lots more resources to
>>>>> handle the same traffic on a web forum machine than on an nntp
>>>>> machine.
>>>>
>>>>  From the user's perspective, web based forums can be far more capable.
>>>
>>> True.
>>>
>>> Well... also depends.
>>>
>>> If one is at a location with limited connectivity, a web forum can be
>>> problematic. One also needs a more powerful computer.
>>
>> Yeah, it's rough on the old Sinclair ...
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Keeping a local copy of the messages (many, not a few) is also a
>>> problem, depending on the site.
>>
>> There is less and less need for local copies - most web based forums
>> keep stuff essentially forever.  After all the user content is still
>> very sparse compared to how it is displayed.
>>
>
> Not for ever... I happened to know some admins handling a webforum (the
> ones that actually handle the machine, not the those that deal with the
> users), and software updates were something to fear. They used
> vBulletin. They migrated to Discourse, and I remember the admins had to
> work hard in advance with the database backend because old messages used
> a different locale and did not translate well.

Of course that's an issue - I didn't delve into it. In the end, if
there is anything important to you on a forum, then download the file,
or make a text file of what you need to keep.

Since 99.9% of everything on newsgroups / forums is blather, it's not
something I worry about. When someone posts something I want to keep, I
make a copy for myself.

--
“If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything."
-Ronald Coase

On 2023-05-28, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-05-26 19:53, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-05-22 13:12, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-05-22 18:48, nospam wrote:
>>>> In article <fFMaM.1297747$alff.538965@fx07.ams1>, Alfred Molon
>>>> <alfred_molon@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder why millenials haven't yet discovered usenet.
>>>>
>>>> because web forums are far more capable, with far more traffic.
>>>
>>> Huh, no, they are not more capable. You need lots more resources to
>>> handle the same traffic on a web forum machine than on an nntp machine.
>>
>> From the user's perspective, web based forums can be far more capable.
>
> True.
>
> Well... also depends.
>
> If one is at a location with limited connectivity, a web forum can be
> problematic. One also needs a more powerful computer.
>
> Keeping a local copy of the messages (many, not a few) is also a
> problem, depending on the site.

Censorship is a huge problem on web forums and social media. Usenet has
alays been a better experience for me.

On 2023-05-31 11:57, Incubus wrote:
> On 2023-05-28, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-05-26 19:53, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2023-05-22 13:12, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2023-05-22 18:48, nospam wrote:
>>>>> In article <fFMaM.1297747$alff.538965@fx07.ams1>, Alfred Molon
>>>>> <alfred_molon@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder why millenials haven't yet discovered usenet.
>>>>>
>>>>> because web forums are far more capable, with far more traffic.
>>>>
>>>> Huh, no, they are not more capable. You need lots more resources to
>>>> handle the same traffic on a web forum machine than on an nntp machine.
>>>
>>> From the user's perspective, web based forums can be far more capable.
>>
>> True.
>>
>> Well... also depends.
>>
>> If one is at a location with limited connectivity, a web forum can be
>> problematic. One also needs a more powerful computer.
>>
>> Keeping a local copy of the messages (many, not a few) is also a
>> problem, depending on the site.
>
> Censorship is a huge problem on web forums and social media. Usenet has
> alays been a better experience for me.

The anarchism of Usenet is also a problem.

We can not ban spammers, can't block impersonation, can not enact rules.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 5/31/23 3:57 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-05-31 11:57, Incubus wrote:
>> On 2023-05-28, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2023-05-26 19:53, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2023-05-22 13:12, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-05-22 18:48, nospam wrote:
>>>>>> In article <fFMaM.1297747$alff.538965@fx07.ams1>, Alfred Molon
>>>>>> <alfred_molon@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder why millenials haven't yet discovered usenet.

Rampant illiteracy and the ease of finding cute cat videos on youtube.
My daughter says her education (good neighborhood) wasn't as good as
mine (upper lower class neighborhood) and her kids' (lower upper class)
wasn't as good as hers.

My grandchildren don't read books. Any books. I wish I knew what
happened to the illustrated Alice in Wonderland (dupe of the one I had
as a kid) that I gave one of the granddaughters, but I won't ask -- I'm
afraid the answer would make me angry.

They've all got smart genes on both sides of the families. Doesn't help.

>>>>>> because web forums are far more capable, with far more traffic.
>>>>>
>>>>> Huh, no, they are not more capable. You need lots more resources to
>>>>> handle the same traffic on a web forum machine than on an nntp machine.
>>>>
>>>> From the user's perspective, web based forums can be far more capable.

When hunting for actual info, I found that NOT to be the case. Ask a
question in the proper usenet group and you'd get a GOOD answer within a
day. Back in olden tymes, of course. I really miss those tymes.
>>> True.
>>>
>>> Well... also depends.
>>>
>>> If one is at a location with limited connectivity, a web forum can be
>>> problematic. One also needs a more powerful computer.
>>>
>>> Keeping a local copy of the messages (many, not a few) is also a
>>> problem, depending on the site.

Thunderbird keeps everything I've written -- my choice. I'm surprised
that I haven't wanted to look at old usenet messages, so whatever this
server saves seems to be OK. Google's archive is much less convenient
than dejanews was.

>> Censorship is a huge problem on web forums and social media. Usenet has
>> alays been a better experience for me.
>
> The anarchism of Usenet is also a problem.
>
> We can not ban spammers, can't block impersonation, can not enact rules.

That's a GOOD thing. We get to do that for ourselves.

The biggest problem with "forums" is the small amount of actual text per
page. Here you see a threaded list of messages -- 50/page in my case --
with authors attached. You can easily choose what you want to read. If
you're looking for actual information, it doesn't take too long to
figure out who knows what (s)he's talking about and who doesn't.

Pretty much ALL of my usenet friends (for nearly 30 years) have switched
to Facebook, but the experience is vastly different and much less
conversational. The groups we frequented are gone forever. Our loss.

--
Cheers, Bev
"It is never fallacious to properly cite Donald Knuth in
lieu of providing your own argument." --Sun Tzu

On 01/06/2023 06:52, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 5/31/23 3:57 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-05-31 11:57, Incubus wrote:
>>> On 2023-05-28, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 2023-05-26 19:53, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-05-22 13:12, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> On 2023-05-22 18:48, nospam wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <fFMaM.1297747$alff.538965@fx07.ams1>, Alfred Molon
>>>>>>> <alfred_molon@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder why millenials haven't yet discovered usenet.
>
> Rampant illiteracy and the ease of finding cute cat videos on youtube.
> My daughter says her education (good neighborhood) wasn't as good as
> mine (upper lower class neighborhood) and her kids' (lower upper class)
> wasn't as good as hers.
>
> My grandchildren don't read books.  Any books.  I wish I knew what
> happened to the illustrated Alice in Wonderland (dupe of the one I had
> as a kid) that I gave one of the granddaughters, but I won't ask -- I'm
> afraid the answer would make me angry.

That's really sad. :-(

> They've all got smart genes on both sides of the families.  Doesn't help.
>
>>>>>>> because web forums are far more capable, with far more traffic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Huh, no, they are not more capable. You need lots more resources to
>>>>>> handle the same traffic on a web forum machine than on an nntp
>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>
>>>>>   From the user's perspective, web based forums can be far more
>>>>> capable.
>
> When hunting for actual info, I found that NOT to be the case.  Ask a
> question in the proper usenet group and you'd get a GOOD answer within a
> day.  Back in olden tymes, of course.  I really miss those tymes.

Do you have any idea where Savageduck went? I used to enjoy his drone
videos.

>>>> True.
>>>>
>>>> Well... also depends.
>>>>
>>>> If one is at a location with limited connectivity, a web forum can be
>>>> problematic. One also needs a more powerful computer.
>>>>
>>>> Keeping a local copy of the messages (many, not a few) is also a
>>>> problem, depending on the site.
>
> Thunderbird keeps everything I've written -- my choice.  I'm surprised
> that I haven't wanted to look at old  usenet messages, so whatever this
> server saves seems to be OK.  Google's archive is much less convenient
> than dejanews was.

I take it you /are/ familiar with Howard Knight's facility?

http://al.howardknight.net

>>> Censorship is a huge problem on web forums and social media.  Usenet has
>>> alays been a better experience for me.
>>
>> The anarchism of Usenet is also a problem.
>>
>> We can not ban spammers, can't block impersonation, can not enact rules.
>
> That's a GOOD thing.  We get to do that for ourselves.
>
> The biggest problem with "forums" is the small amount of actual text per
> page.  Here you see a threaded list of messages -- 50/page in my case --
> with authors attached.  You can easily choose what you want to read.  If
> you're looking for actual information, it doesn't take too long to
> figure out who knows what (s)he's talking about and who doesn't.

Us granddads have to help one another! ;-)

> Pretty much ALL of my usenet friends (for nearly 30 years) have switched
> to Facebook, but the experience is vastly different and much less
> conversational.  The groups we frequented are gone forever.  Our loss.

Facebook is great for families and photographs.

--
David B.
Have a grand day! 🙂
Shared with ACW

On 2023-05-26 15:53, nospam wrote:
> In article <cdf6kjx4b4.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Actually, nntp can do rich text and photos, with html. And can have
>> moderators, too.
>
> and quickly get banned for doing so.

I just noticed someone that posts usually in html, for years, and is not
banned. I have seen him before, goes by "😉 Good Guy 😉". I have him
killfilled in several groups.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

In article <7kv9ljxq5v.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> >
> >> Actually, nntp can do rich text and photos, with html. And can have
> >> moderators, too.
> >
> > and quickly get banned for doing so.
>
> I just noticed someone that posts usually in html, for years, and is not
> banned. I have seen him before, goes by "? Good Guy ?". I have him
> killfilled in several groups.

eternal-september blocks his posts, probably other feeds also do that.
i haven't seen his crap in a few years.

On 2023-06-09 00:20, nospam wrote:
> In article <7kv9ljxq5v.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>> Actually, nntp can do rich text and photos, with html. And can have
>>>> moderators, too.
>>>
>>> and quickly get banned for doing so.
>>
>> I just noticed someone that posts usually in html, for years, and is not
>> banned. I have seen him before, goes by "? Good Guy ?". I have him
>> killfilled in several groups.
>
> eternal-september blocks his posts, probably other feeds also do that.
> i haven't seen his crap in a few years.

But he is not banned. Many servers publish his posts, including mine,
which is payware.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 08/06/2023 23:20, nospam wrote:
> In article <7kv9ljxq5v.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>> Actually, nntp can do rich text and photos, with html. And can have
>>>> moderators, too.
>>>
>>> and quickly get banned for doing so.
>>
>> I just noticed someone that posts usually in html, for years, and is not
>> banned. I have seen him before, goes by "? Good Guy ?". I have him
>> killfilled in several groups.
>
> eternal-september blocks his posts, probably other feeds also do that.
> i haven't seen his crap in a few years.

See Message-ID: <JGpfM.3882217$9sn9.3495327@fx17.iad>

http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=168652208300