On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 4:32:05 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Having been heavily involved with the NMAC's between towplane and jet traffic, it seems to me that doing nothing to secure the safety of aviation is being overlooked.
> Most of us at some time or another have seen traffic up close, too close for comfort. Our area consist of heavy traffic ranging from flight training schools to scheduled heavy jet traffic. Our club was successful in developing a program through a LOA to communicate with WPA, and KVRB when operating gliders. This program has helped in regard to instrument traffic being advised of gliders operating, and local traffic being advised through ATIS.
> The problem still exist as most training and private jet traffic operators are too busy looking at those fancy glass screens instead of making note of traffic upon visual approach.
> Why hasn't the FAA endorsed the portable ADSB units that are accepted in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand? The success of the portable ADSB unit in those countries has led to increased safety. A portable unit like the SkyEcho, from uAvioni could be a gamechanger for general aviation. Sailplanes would benefit along with many other forms of aviation. The ability to carry a portable unit with a 50 mile range could have and will save lives.
> Glider clubs all over the country would benefit, the cost reduction vs an installed unit would be substantial. OBTP

I think Bobbie makes a good point. If we could add a much higher level of protection for 3 or $400 a glider I would expect a lot of pilots and clubs would go for it.
Whether it would satisfy the objectives of Homeland Security( in my opinion the driving force behind the S(surveilance) is another question.
It would seem to me that some of the technology that is being developed for UAV's(airspace trash to me) might also provide similar potential benefits.
Flame suit on
UH

Anybody remember the FAA's attempt to require transponders in ALL aircraft back in the 1980s? This would have closed off virtually all airspace in the US to non-transponder equipped aircraft. It would mandate the installation of Mode C transponders in everything from hang gliders and balloons to commercial airliners, regardless of whether the aircraft had an electrical system or not. The proposal was ultimately shot down by lobbying efforts by AOPA and a massive letter writing campaign by General Aviation users to elected representatives in the US Congress. The number of letters received was apparently the largest response ever to a proposed Federal mandate.

At the time, attempts were made to introduce portable transponders that would operate on battery power for use in non-electrically equipped aircraft, but the equipment was never made available due to FCC requirements and cost.. Eventually, the proposed mandate was abandoned, only to rise again with the advent of ADS-B.

On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 7:35:38 AM UTC-7, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 4:32:05 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Having been heavily involved with the NMAC's between towplane and jet traffic, it seems to me that doing nothing to secure the safety of aviation is being overlooked.
> > Most of us at some time or another have seen traffic up close, too close for comfort. Our area consist of heavy traffic ranging from flight training schools to scheduled heavy jet traffic. Our club was successful in developing a program through a LOA to communicate with WPA, and KVRB when operating gliders. This program has helped in regard to instrument traffic being advised of gliders operating, and local traffic being advised through ATIS.
> > The problem still exist as most training and private jet traffic operators are too busy looking at those fancy glass screens instead of making note of traffic upon visual approach.
> > Why hasn't the FAA endorsed the portable ADSB units that are accepted in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand? The success of the portable ADSB unit in those countries has led to increased safety. A portable unit like the SkyEcho, from uAvioni could be a gamechanger for general aviation. Sailplanes would benefit along with many other forms of aviation. The ability to carry a portable unit with a 50 mile range could have and will save lives.
> > Glider clubs all over the country would benefit, the cost reduction vs an installed unit would be substantial. OBTP
> I think Bobbie makes a good point. If we could add a much higher level of protection for 3 or $400 a glider I would expect a lot of pilots and clubs would go for it.
> Whether it would satisfy the objectives of Homeland Security( in my opinion the driving force behind the S(surveilance) is another question.
> It would seem to me that some of the technology that is being developed for UAV's(airspace trash to me) might also provide similar potential benefits.
> Flame suit on
> UH
SkyEcho is about $650 (US dollars), so well within the "affordable" range. As far as I can determine, it's allowed only in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand. Why it's not available more widely, I don't know, but the UK does have a history of "lighter" regulation, such as allowing cloud flying in gliders.

On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 12:21:14 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 10:35:38 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 4:32:05 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Having been heavily involved with the NMAC's between towplane and jet traffic, it seems to me that doing nothing to secure the safety of aviation is being overlooked.
> > > Most of us at some time or another have seen traffic up close, too close for comfort. Our area consist of heavy traffic ranging from flight training schools to scheduled heavy jet traffic. Our club was successful in developing a program through a LOA to communicate with WPA, and KVRB when operating gliders. This program has helped in regard to instrument traffic being advised of gliders operating, and local traffic being advised through ATIS.
> > > The problem still exist as most training and private jet traffic operators are too busy looking at those fancy glass screens instead of making note of traffic upon visual approach.
> > > Why hasn't the FAA endorsed the portable ADSB units that are accepted in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand? The success of the portable ADSB unit in those countries has led to increased safety. A portable unit like the SkyEcho, from uAvioni could be a gamechanger for general aviation. Sailplanes would benefit along with many other forms of aviation. The ability to carry a portable unit with a 50 mile range could have and will save lives.
> > > Glider clubs all over the country would benefit, the cost reduction vs an installed unit would be substantial. OBTP
> > I think Bobbie makes a good point. If we could add a much higher level of protection for 3 or $400 a glider I would expect a lot of pilots and clubs would go for it.
> > Whether it would satisfy the objectives of Homeland Security( in my opinion the driving force behind the S(surveilance) is another question.
> > It would seem to me that some of the technology that is being developed for UAV's(airspace trash to me) might also provide similar potential benefits.
> > Flame suit on
> > UH
> UH. you are 100% correct, if drones that you buy at Best Buy are transmitting ADSB signals why can't the glider and other sectors of aviation be equipped with a portable ADSB device, which is available and can add another layer of safety. Also, the ultimate goal is to see and be seen, not just see, which is a 50% factor and a 100% factor is available. Skyecho can provide a 40-50 mile protection buffer for both target aircraft, what is wrong with that? I would like for every glider in our club to have the ability to have a portable ADSB out available!!! This is not an argument about transponders, or TCAS, just a logical approach to increasing safety. I am relative sure that the hex codes of the portable unit could easily be received and identified within the system. OBTP
The drones from Best Buy (or any consumer drone) do not transmit ADS-B signals, but some drones made by DJI do have ADS-B in. A concern about drones emitting ADS-B signals is overwhelming the system. but DJI and others are supposed to be working on methods to prevent system overload. Equipping with ADS-B in would aid pilots in avoiding ADS-B equipped aircraft. Does everyone flying from Hibiscus have ADS-B in?

On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 2:24:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 4:05:52 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 12:21:14 PM UTC-7, youngbl....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 10:35:38 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 4:32:05 PM UTC-4, youngbl....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > Having been heavily involved with the NMAC's between towplane and jet traffic, it seems to me that doing nothing to secure the safety of aviation is being overlooked.
> > > > > Most of us at some time or another have seen traffic up close, too close for comfort. Our area consist of heavy traffic ranging from flight training schools to scheduled heavy jet traffic. Our club was successful in developing a program through a LOA to communicate with WPA, and KVRB when operating gliders. This program has helped in regard to instrument traffic being advised of gliders operating, and local traffic being advised through ATIS.
> > > > > The problem still exist as most training and private jet traffic operators are too busy looking at those fancy glass screens instead of making note of traffic upon visual approach.
> > > > > Why hasn't the FAA endorsed the portable ADSB units that are accepted in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand? The success of the portable ADSB unit in those countries has led to increased safety. A portable unit like the SkyEcho, from uAvioni could be a gamechanger for general aviation. Sailplanes would benefit along with many other forms of aviation. The ability to carry a portable unit with a 50 mile range could have and will save lives.
> > > > > Glider clubs all over the country would benefit, the cost reduction vs an installed unit would be substantial. OBTP
> > > > I think Bobbie makes a good point. If we could add a much higher level of protection for 3 or $400 a glider I would expect a lot of pilots and clubs would go for it.
> > > > Whether it would satisfy the objectives of Homeland Security( in my opinion the driving force behind the S(surveilance) is another question.
> > > > It would seem to me that some of the technology that is being developed for UAV's(airspace trash to me) might also provide similar potential benefits.
> > > > Flame suit on
> > > > UH
> > > UH. you are 100% correct, if drones that you buy at Best Buy are transmitting ADSB signals why can't the glider and other sectors of aviation be equipped with a portable ADSB device, which is available and can add another layer of safety. Also, the ultimate goal is to see and be seen, not just see, which is a 50% factor and a 100% factor is available. Skyecho can provide a 40-50 mile protection buffer for both target aircraft, what is wrong with that? I would like for every glider in our club to have the ability to have a portable ADSB out available!!! This is not an argument about transponders, or TCAS, just a logical approach to increasing safety. I am relative sure that the hex codes of the portable unit could easily be received and identified within the system. OBTP
> > The drones from Best Buy (or any consumer drone) do not transmit ADS-B signals, but some drones made by DJI do have ADS-B in. A concern about drones emitting ADS-B signals is overwhelming the system. but DJI and others are supposed to be working on methods to prevent system overload. Equipping with ADS-B in would aid pilots in avoiding ADS-B equipped aircraft. Does everyone flying from Hibiscus have ADS-B in?
> I do know a bit about drones, I have about ten of them, authorization is required for ADSB out , the FAA has required that UAS operators receiving ATC services must have ADSB out, it does get a bit crazy at times. No, not all operators at Hibiscus have ADSB in, probably most gliders in this country do not either . OBTP
You wrote: "if drones that you buy at Best Buy are transmitting ADSB signals why can't the glider and other sectors of aviation be equipped with a portable ADSB device"

Did you get it from Best Buy? Did have it ADSB Out when you walked out the door with it? Nope, it's more complicated than that. My point is ADSB is not in consumer level drones that anyone can just walk into a store and buy, so the response to your remark "if drones that you buy at Best Buy ..." is "you can't buy drones from Best Buy that are transmitting ADS-B".

The major practical reason is the very large numbers of consumer drones could/would overwhelm the system, but I'm sure there are several other reasons..

Eric

On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 3:26:13 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 10:53:59 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 2:24:57 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 4:05:52 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 12:21:14 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 10:35:38 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 4:32:05 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > Having been heavily involved with the NMAC's between towplane and jet traffic, it seems to me that doing nothing to secure the safety of aviation is being overlooked.
> > > > > > > Most of us at some time or another have seen traffic up close, too close for comfort. Our area consist of heavy traffic ranging from flight training schools to scheduled heavy jet traffic. Our club was successful in developing a program through a LOA to communicate with WPA, and KVRB when operating gliders. This program has helped in regard to instrument traffic being advised of gliders operating, and local traffic being advised through ATIS.
> > > > > > > The problem still exist as most training and private jet traffic operators are too busy looking at those fancy glass screens instead of making note of traffic upon visual approach.
> > > > > > > Why hasn't the FAA endorsed the portable ADSB units that are accepted in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand? The success of the portable ADSB unit in those countries has led to increased safety. A portable unit like the SkyEcho, from uAvioni could be a gamechanger for general aviation. Sailplanes would benefit along with many other forms of aviation. The ability to carry a portable unit with a 50 mile range could have and will save lives.
> > > > > > > Glider clubs all over the country would benefit, the cost reduction vs an installed unit would be substantial. OBTP
> > > > > > I think Bobbie makes a good point. If we could add a much higher level of protection for 3 or $400 a glider I would expect a lot of pilots and clubs would go for it.
> > > > > > Whether it would satisfy the objectives of Homeland Security( in my opinion the driving force behind the S(surveilance) is another question.
> > > > > > It would seem to me that some of the technology that is being developed for UAV's(airspace trash to me) might also provide similar potential benefits.
> > > > > > Flame suit on
> > > > > > UH
> > > > > UH. you are 100% correct, if drones that you buy at Best Buy are transmitting ADSB signals why can't the glider and other sectors of aviation be equipped with a portable ADSB device, which is available and can add another layer of safety. Also, the ultimate goal is to see and be seen, not just see, which is a 50% factor and a 100% factor is available. Skyecho can provide a 40-50 mile protection buffer for both target aircraft, what is wrong with that? I would like for every glider in our club to have the ability to have a portable ADSB out available!!! This is not an argument about transponders, or TCAS, just a logical approach to increasing safety. I am relative sure that the hex codes of the portable unit could easily be received and identified within the system. OBTP
> > > > The drones from Best Buy (or any consumer drone) do not transmit ADS-B signals, but some drones made by DJI do have ADS-B in. A concern about drones emitting ADS-B signals is overwhelming the system. but DJI and others are supposed to be working on methods to prevent system overload. Equipping with ADS-B in would aid pilots in avoiding ADS-B equipped aircraft. Does everyone flying from Hibiscus have ADS-B in?
> > > I do know a bit about drones, I have about ten of them, authorization is required for ADSB out , the FAA has required that UAS operators receiving ATC services must have ADSB out, it does get a bit crazy at times. No, not all operators at Hibiscus have ADSB in, probably most gliders in this country do not either . OBTP
> > You wrote: "if drones that you buy at Best Buy are transmitting ADSB signals why can't the glider and other sectors of aviation be equipped with a portable ADSB device"
> >
> > Did you get it from Best Buy? Did have it ADSB Out when you walked out the door with it? Nope, it's more complicated than that. My point is ADSB is not in consumer level drones that anyone can just walk into a store and buy, so the response to your remark "if drones that you buy at Best Buy ..." is "you can't buy drones from Best Buy that are transmitting ADS-B".
> >
> > The major practical reason is the very large numbers of consumer drones could/would overwhelm the system, but I'm sure there are several other reasons.
> >
> > Eric
> No, it did not have ADSB out when I walked out the door, but it did the following few days, the point is that why does a drone have the capability to have ADSB out and a portable unit is not allowed ? To further explain to you a bit about ADSB in, it is basically useless on a drone, even with the smart controllers like I use. Now how about telling me how much more safety is applied when there is ADSB out vs in? The argument that the FAA has used is that there are not enough ground stations to provide coverage, and that the power output from Skyecho is not enough to meet the requirements for reception, that is what the FAA told me. I would think that most glider traffic that has a higher rate of NMAC is within the 50 mile range from a receiver station, we certainly are, Florida to my knowledge is well covered by ADSB receiving stations, just take a look at our number of airports and traffic. The FAA has stated that the signal of a standard ADSB installed unit is 200 miles or so, yet they don't tell you that the signal is dependent on altitude and other variables. OBTP
How did you add ADS-B to your drone? Where did you get the device and what did it cost?

On 9/29/2023 10:58 PM, 2G wrote:
> SkyEcho is NOT approved for use in the United States.
> For U.S. applications, see Sentry by ForeFlight
>
> And there is a link to:
> https://flywithsentry.com/

- The Sentry is ADS-B *in*. There are several inexpensive solutions for
that. (PowerFLARM is one of them.) The issue at hand is low power,
affordable, ADS-B *out*.

On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:21:14 PM UTC-4, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On 9/29/2023 10:58 PM, 2G wrote:
> > SkyEcho is NOT approved for use in the United States.
> > For U.S. applications, see Sentry by ForeFlight
> >
> > And there is a link to:
> > https://flywithsentry.com/
> - The Sentry is ADS-B *in*. There are several inexpensive solutions for
> that. (PowerFLARM is one of them.) The issue at hand is low power,
> affordable, ADS-B *out*.
All,
The public comment period for the NPRM MOSAIC ends in 21 days, calling for some of the most sweeping changes in general aviation in years. Many aircraft will be affected, probably gliders too. The current group topic of non certified, portable ADSB is relevant and needed in this area. The collective, knowledge, and persuasiveness of this group could send a powerful messsage to our safety interested friends in the FAA. Consider commenting and encourage your friends to do so also. It costs nothing, and could possibly help a great deal.

Tidewater Soaring Society operates in a high traffic area in the approaches to Langley AFB, Norfolk City, Williamsburg/ Newport News and several surrounding GA airports. After a number of close calls, we entered into an agreement with Norfolk
Approach to notify them when we operated and received a squak number for our gliders. We have equipped all our club gliders and tow planes with transponders and have seen the close calls decrease. We would welcome this next step in safety for us all.
NPRM Public comment link below

Tom Watson
Tidewater Soaring Society

https://www.regulations.gov/commenton/FAA-2023-1377-0001

On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 4:22:08 PM UTC-4, Tom Watson wrote:
> On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:21:14 PM UTC-4, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > On 9/29/2023 10:58 PM, 2G wrote:
> > > SkyEcho is NOT approved for use in the United States.
> > > For U.S. applications, see Sentry by ForeFlight
> > >
> > > And there is a link to:
> > > https://flywithsentry.com/
> > - The Sentry is ADS-B *in*. There are several inexpensive solutions for
> > that. (PowerFLARM is one of them.) The issue at hand is low power,
> > affordable, ADS-B *out*.
> All,
> The public comment period for the NPRM MOSAIC ends in 21 days, calling for some of the most sweeping changes in general aviation in years. Many aircraft will be affected, probably gliders too. The current group topic of non certified, portable ADSB is relevant and needed in this area. The collective, knowledge, and persuasiveness of this group could send a powerful messsage to our safety interested friends in the FAA. Consider commenting and encourage your friends to do so also. It costs nothing, and could possibly help a great deal.
>
> Tidewater Soaring Society operates in a high traffic area in the approaches to Langley AFB, Norfolk City, Williamsburg/ Newport News and several surrounding GA airports. After a number of close calls, we entered into an agreement with Norfolk
> Approach to notify them when we operated and received a squak number for our gliders. We have equipped all our club gliders and tow planes with transponders and have seen the close calls decrease. We would welcome this next step in safety for us all.
> NPRM Public comment link below
>
> Tom Watson
> Tidewater Soaring Society
>
>
> https://www.regulations.gov/commenton/FAA-2023-1377-0001
Tom, thank you very much for this very informative and descriptive addition to this thread. I appears that your club has mirrored the proactive agreement that TCSC has with WPB, Vero Beach through the FSDO and regional office of the FAA in Atlanta. It is time for a change, and it is well past due. The inclusion of a portable ADSB device is a game changer, a huge safety factor increase and an affordable solution to all soaring pilots alike.
No longer do we need transponders in gliders that are not equipped with such, as you stated the next step is safety for all of us, and it is long past due.
The SSA and the EAA should be much more proactive in this effort to make a change that protects GA plots like us glider pilots. I encourage all SSA and EAA members to participate in the NPRM opportunity. Old Bob, The Purist

On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 6:03:15 AM UTC-5, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 4:22:08 PM UTC-4, Tom Watson wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:21:14 PM UTC-4, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > > On 9/29/2023 10:58 PM, 2G wrote:
> > > > SkyEcho is NOT approved for use in the United States.
> > > > For U.S. applications, see Sentry by ForeFlight
> > > >
> > > > And there is a link to:
> > > > https://flywithsentry.com/
> > > - The Sentry is ADS-B *in*. There are several inexpensive solutions for
> > > that. (PowerFLARM is one of them.) The issue at hand is low power,
> > > affordable, ADS-B *out*.
> > All,
> > The public comment period for the NPRM MOSAIC ends in 21 days, calling for some of the most sweeping changes in general aviation in years. Many aircraft will be affected, probably gliders too. The current group topic of non certified, portable ADSB is relevant and needed in this area. The collective, knowledge, and persuasiveness of this group could send a powerful messsage to our safety interested friends in the FAA. Consider commenting and encourage your friends to do so also. It costs nothing, and could possibly help a great deal.
> >
> > Tidewater Soaring Society operates in a high traffic area in the approaches to Langley AFB, Norfolk City, Williamsburg/ Newport News and several surrounding GA airports. After a number of close calls, we entered into an agreement with Norfolk
> > Approach to notify them when we operated and received a squak number for our gliders. We have equipped all our club gliders and tow planes with transponders and have seen the close calls decrease. We would welcome this next step in safety for us all.
> > NPRM Public comment link below
> >
> > Tom Watson
> > Tidewater Soaring Society
> >
> >
> > https://www.regulations.gov/commenton/FAA-2023-1377-0001
> Tom, thank you very much for this very informative and descriptive addition to this thread. I appears that your club has mirrored the proactive agreement that TCSC has with WPB, Vero Beach through the FSDO and regional office of the FAA in Atlanta. It is time for a change, and it is well past due. The inclusion of a portable ADSB device is a game changer, a huge safety factor increase and an affordable solution to all soaring pilots alike.
> No longer do we need transponders in gliders that are not equipped with such, as you stated the next step is safety for all of us, and it is long past due.
> The SSA and the EAA should be much more proactive in this effort to make a change that protects GA plots like us glider pilots. I encourage all SSA and EAA members to participate in the NPRM opportunity. Old Bob, The Purist

I agree, this is a great chance to add our comments.
The only reference to ADS-B or transponders is in section D7:
D. Certification of Light-Sport Category Aircraft.....7. Instruments and Equipment
(you can do a control+F to quickly find the word transponder)
I copied the relevant part below in quotes....

"Additionally, light-sport category aircraft would also be more prone to fly in airspace requiring transponders and ADS–B equipment as aircraft designers may be more willing to install this equipment. This equipment enhances safety of the national airspace system by making an aircraft visible to air traffic control and to other appropriately equipped aircraft, promoting the separation of aircraft, and decreasing the risk of mid-air collision."

I think it odd that this lengthy document covers so much of the aircraft structure and pilot certification, but only two sentences about reducing risk of mid-air collisions. There is useful and low-cost technology available to "see and be seen" that would be very helpful beyond air traffic control visibility.

As Tom and Bob said, please add your comments to this document...maybe we can make a difference!

On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 5:22:25 AM UTC-7, Dan Kvinge wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 6:03:15 AM UTC-5, youngbl...@gmail..com wrote:
> > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 4:22:08 PM UTC-4, Tom Watson wrote:
> > > On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:21:14 PM UTC-4, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > > > On 9/29/2023 10:58 PM, 2G wrote:
> > > > > SkyEcho is NOT approved for use in the United States.
> > > > > For U.S. applications, see Sentry by ForeFlight
> > > > >
> > > > > And there is a link to:
> > > > > https://flywithsentry.com/
> > > > - The Sentry is ADS-B *in*. There are several inexpensive solutions for
> > > > that. (PowerFLARM is one of them.) The issue at hand is low power,
> > > > affordable, ADS-B *out*.
> > > All,
> > > The public comment period for the NPRM MOSAIC ends in 21 days, calling for some of the most sweeping changes in general aviation in years. Many aircraft will be affected, probably gliders too. The current group topic of non certified, portable ADSB is relevant and needed in this area. The collective, knowledge, and persuasiveness of this group could send a powerful messsage to our safety interested friends in the FAA. Consider commenting and encourage your friends to do so also. It costs nothing, and could possibly help a great deal.
> > >
> > > Tidewater Soaring Society operates in a high traffic area in the approaches to Langley AFB, Norfolk City, Williamsburg/ Newport News and several surrounding GA airports. After a number of close calls, we entered into an agreement with Norfolk
> > > Approach to notify them when we operated and received a squak number for our gliders. We have equipped all our club gliders and tow planes with transponders and have seen the close calls decrease. We would welcome this next step in safety for us all.
> > > NPRM Public comment link below
> > >
> > > Tom Watson
> > > Tidewater Soaring Society
> > >
> > >
> > > https://www.regulations.gov/commenton/FAA-2023-1377-0001
> > Tom, thank you very much for this very informative and descriptive addition to this thread. I appears that your club has mirrored the proactive agreement that TCSC has with WPB, Vero Beach through the FSDO and regional office of the FAA in Atlanta. It is time for a change, and it is well past due. The inclusion of a portable ADSB device is a game changer, a huge safety factor increase and an affordable solution to all soaring pilots alike.
> > No longer do we need transponders in gliders that are not equipped with such, as you stated the next step is safety for all of us, and it is long past due.
> > The SSA and the EAA should be much more proactive in this effort to make a change that protects GA plots like us glider pilots. I encourage all SSA and EAA members to participate in the NPRM opportunity. Old Bob, The Purist
> I agree, this is a great chance to add our comments.
> The only reference to ADS-B or transponders is in section D7:
> D. Certification of Light-Sport Category Aircraft.....7. Instruments and Equipment
> (you can do a control+F to quickly find the word transponder)
> I copied the relevant part below in quotes....
>
> "Additionally, light-sport category aircraft would also be more prone to fly in airspace requiring transponders and ADS–B equipment as aircraft designers may be more willing to install this equipment. This equipment enhances safety of the national airspace system by making an aircraft visible to air traffic control and to other appropriately equipped aircraft, promoting the separation of aircraft, and decreasing the risk of mid-air collision."
>
> I think it odd that this lengthy document covers so much of the aircraft structure and pilot certification, but only two sentences about reducing risk of mid-air collisions. There is useful and low-cost technology available to "see and be seen" that would be very helpful beyond air traffic control visibility.
>
> As Tom and Bob said, please add your comments to this document...maybe we can make a difference!
The reference seems to about regulation changes for LSA and experimentals that want to fly at night and in IMC that encourage equipping those aircraft with transponders and ADS-B, not about lower cost transponder and ADSB to do the encouraging. Or did I miss something?

How about pilots in UK, New Zealand, and Australia? Are you buying and using SkyEcho? Is it making airspace safer or more available to you? Does anyone have any idea why it's just these three countries that can use it, and not so many other countries?

On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 07:32:40 -0700 (PDT), Eric Greenwell wrote:

> How about pilots in UK, New Zealand, and Australia? Are you buying and
> using SkyEcho? Is it making airspace safer or more available to you?
> Does anyone have any idea why it's just these three countries that can
> use it, and not so many other countries?
>
UK pilot, using a RedBox FLARM system, fitted to me Libelle in 2005 and
'just working' ever since. Early on I found precisely where to position
its dipole in front of the panel so it can (a) 'look back over its
shoulder' past all the instruments on the panel and (b) its internal GPS
has a good sky view. I know this setup is good: because I've periodically
checked flight logs with the range analysis tool on the FLARM website.

I'd never heard of SkyEcho until now, but it turns out that you're better
placed than I am to find out more about it and its maker, uAvionix,
because its website says the latter is a US company with offices in MT and
VA.

--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 10:12:43 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 07:32:40 -0700 (PDT), Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
> > How about pilots in UK, New Zealand, and Australia? Are you buying and
> > using SkyEcho? Is it making airspace safer or more available to you?
> > Does anyone have any idea why it's just these three countries that can
> > use it, and not so many other countries?
> >
> UK pilot, using a RedBox FLARM system, fitted to me Libelle in 2005 and
> 'just working' ever since. Early on I found precisely where to position
> its dipole in front of the panel so it can (a) 'look back over its
> shoulder' past all the instruments on the panel and (b) its internal GPS
> has a good sky view. I know this setup is good: because I've periodically
> checked flight logs with the range analysis tool on the FLARM website.
>
> I'd never heard of SkyEcho until now, but it turns out that you're better
> placed than I am to find out more about it and its maker, uAvionix,
> because its website says the latter is a US company with offices in MT and
> VA.
>
>
> --
>
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org
It's available in the UK from Transair, Fightstore, and others:
https://transair.co.uk/avionics-radios-and-gps/ads-b-devices/skyecho-2-uavionix-portable-ads-b-transceiver
https://www.flightstore.co.uk/product/uavionix-skyecho-2-portable-ads-b-transceiver-12386

It's even eligible for a big rebate:

"Order your SkyEcho2 today and claim a rebate back of up to £250!
The Rebate scheme has been extended to 31st March 2024."

On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 10:32:43 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 5:22:25 AM UTC-7, Dan Kvinge wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 6:03:15 AM UTC-5, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 4:22:08 PM UTC-4, Tom Watson wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:21:14 PM UTC-4, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > > > > On 9/29/2023 10:58 PM, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > SkyEcho is NOT approved for use in the United States.
> > > > > > For U.S. applications, see Sentry by ForeFlight
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And there is a link to:
> > > > > > https://flywithsentry.com/
> > > > > - The Sentry is ADS-B *in*. There are several inexpensive solutions for
> > > > > that. (PowerFLARM is one of them.) The issue at hand is low power,
> > > > > affordable, ADS-B *out*.
> > > > All,
> > > > The public comment period for the NPRM MOSAIC ends in 21 days, calling for some of the most sweeping changes in general aviation in years. Many aircraft will be affected, probably gliders too. The current group topic of non certified, portable ADSB is relevant and needed in this area. The collective, knowledge, and persuasiveness of this group could send a powerful messsage to our safety interested friends in the FAA. Consider commenting and encourage your friends to do so also. It costs nothing, and could possibly help a great deal.
> > > >
> > > > Tidewater Soaring Society operates in a high traffic area in the approaches to Langley AFB, Norfolk City, Williamsburg/ Newport News and several surrounding GA airports. After a number of close calls, we entered into an agreement with Norfolk
> > > > Approach to notify them when we operated and received a squak number for our gliders. We have equipped all our club gliders and tow planes with transponders and have seen the close calls decrease. We would welcome this next step in safety for us all.
> > > > NPRM Public comment link below
> > > >
> > > > Tom Watson
> > > > Tidewater Soaring Society
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > https://www.regulations.gov/commenton/FAA-2023-1377-0001
> > > Tom, thank you very much for this very informative and descriptive addition to this thread. I appears that your club has mirrored the proactive agreement that TCSC has with WPB, Vero Beach through the FSDO and regional office of the FAA in Atlanta. It is time for a change, and it is well past due. The inclusion of a portable ADSB device is a game changer, a huge safety factor increase and an affordable solution to all soaring pilots alike.
> > > No longer do we need transponders in gliders that are not equipped with such, as you stated the next step is safety for all of us, and it is long past due.
> > > The SSA and the EAA should be much more proactive in this effort to make a change that protects GA plots like us glider pilots. I encourage all SSA and EAA members to participate in the NPRM opportunity. Old Bob, The Purist
> > I agree, this is a great chance to add our comments.
> > The only reference to ADS-B or transponders is in section D7:
> > D. Certification of Light-Sport Category Aircraft.....7. Instruments and Equipment
> > (you can do a control+F to quickly find the word transponder)
> > I copied the relevant part below in quotes....
> >
> > "Additionally, light-sport category aircraft would also be more prone to fly in airspace requiring transponders and ADS–B equipment as aircraft designers may be more willing to install this equipment. This equipment enhances safety of the national airspace system by making an aircraft visible to air traffic control and to other appropriately equipped aircraft, promoting the separation of aircraft, and decreasing the risk of mid-air collision."
> >
> > I think it odd that this lengthy document covers so much of the aircraft structure and pilot certification, but only two sentences about reducing risk of mid-air collisions. There is useful and low-cost technology available to "see and be seen" that would be very helpful beyond air traffic control visibility.
> >
> > As Tom and Bob said, please add your comments to this document...maybe we can make a difference!
> The reference seems to about regulation changes for LSA and experimentals that want to fly at night and in IMC that encourage equipping those aircraft with transponders and ADS-B, not about lower cost transponder and ADSB to do the encouraging. Or did I miss something?
>
> How about pilots in UK, New Zealand, and Australia? Are you buying and using SkyEcho? Is it making airspace safer or more available to you? Does anyone have any idea why it's just these three countries that can use it, and not so many other countries?
Eric, it is because they allow the portability of the unit. I works extremely well, it is affordable, readily available and will make flying gliders more safe, it is truly amazing that the UK, New Zealand and Australia have safer airspace than the US. Maybe they don't have as much bureaucratic BS to go through. OBTP

On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 3:24:28 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 10:32:43 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 5:22:25 AM UTC-7, Dan Kvinge wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 6:03:15 AM UTC-5, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 4:22:08 PM UTC-4, Tom Watson wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:21:14 PM UTC-4, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > > > > > On 9/29/2023 10:58 PM, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > > SkyEcho is NOT approved for use in the United States.
> > > > > > > For U.S. applications, see Sentry by ForeFlight
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And there is a link to:
> > > > > > > https://flywithsentry.com/
> > > > > > - The Sentry is ADS-B *in*. There are several inexpensive solutions for
> > > > > > that. (PowerFLARM is one of them.) The issue at hand is low power,
> > > > > > affordable, ADS-B *out*.
> > > > > All,
> > > > > The public comment period for the NPRM MOSAIC ends in 21 days, calling for some of the most sweeping changes in general aviation in years. Many aircraft will be affected, probably gliders too. The current group topic of non certified, portable ADSB is relevant and needed in this area. The collective, knowledge, and persuasiveness of this group could send a powerful messsage to our safety interested friends in the FAA. Consider commenting and encourage your friends to do so also. It costs nothing, and could possibly help a great deal.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tidewater Soaring Society operates in a high traffic area in the approaches to Langley AFB, Norfolk City, Williamsburg/ Newport News and several surrounding GA airports. After a number of close calls, we entered into an agreement with Norfolk
> > > > > Approach to notify them when we operated and received a squak number for our gliders. We have equipped all our club gliders and tow planes with transponders and have seen the close calls decrease. We would welcome this next step in safety for us all.
> > > > > NPRM Public comment link below
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom Watson
> > > > > Tidewater Soaring Society
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.regulations.gov/commenton/FAA-2023-1377-0001
> > > > Tom, thank you very much for this very informative and descriptive addition to this thread. I appears that your club has mirrored the proactive agreement that TCSC has with WPB, Vero Beach through the FSDO and regional office of the FAA in Atlanta. It is time for a change, and it is well past due. The inclusion of a portable ADSB device is a game changer, a huge safety factor increase and an affordable solution to all soaring pilots alike..
> > > > No longer do we need transponders in gliders that are not equipped with such, as you stated the next step is safety for all of us, and it is long past due.
> > > > The SSA and the EAA should be much more proactive in this effort to make a change that protects GA plots like us glider pilots. I encourage all SSA and EAA members to participate in the NPRM opportunity. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > I agree, this is a great chance to add our comments.
> > > The only reference to ADS-B or transponders is in section D7:
> > > D. Certification of Light-Sport Category Aircraft.....7. Instruments and Equipment
> > > (you can do a control+F to quickly find the word transponder)
> > > I copied the relevant part below in quotes....
> > >
> > > "Additionally, light-sport category aircraft would also be more prone to fly in airspace requiring transponders and ADS–B equipment as aircraft designers may be more willing to install this equipment. This equipment enhances safety of the national airspace system by making an aircraft visible to air traffic control and to other appropriately equipped aircraft, promoting the separation of aircraft, and decreasing the risk of mid-air collision."
> > >
> > > I think it odd that this lengthy document covers so much of the aircraft structure and pilot certification, but only two sentences about reducing risk of mid-air collisions. There is useful and low-cost technology available to "see and be seen" that would be very helpful beyond air traffic control visibility.
> > >
> > > As Tom and Bob said, please add your comments to this document...maybe we can make a difference!
> > The reference seems to about regulation changes for LSA and experimentals that want to fly at night and in IMC that encourage equipping those aircraft with transponders and ADS-B, not about lower cost transponder and ADSB to do the encouraging. Or did I miss something?
> >
> > How about pilots in UK, New Zealand, and Australia? Are you buying and using SkyEcho? Is it making airspace safer or more available to you? Does anyone have any idea why it's just these three countries that can use it, and not so many other countries?
> Eric, it is because they allow the portability of the unit. I works extremely well, it is affordable, readily available and will make flying gliders more safe, it is truly amazing that the UK, New Zealand and Australia have safer airspace than the US. Maybe they don't have as much bureaucratic BS to go through. OBTP
Maybe it's all British rule, thus commonality between the 3 countries?
I like Flarm in the US, at least I can see some traffic coming even if they can't see me on a screen. I'm in the NY metro area, so, 3 large airports nearby, a VOR not far away, and "crank" intersection just above.

On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 5:07:44 PM UTC-5, Charlie M. (UH, Pi & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 3:24:28 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail..com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 10:32:43 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 5:22:25 AM UTC-7, Dan Kvinge wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 6:03:15 AM UTC-5, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 4:22:08 PM UTC-4, Tom Watson wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, October 1, 2023 at 7:21:14 PM UTC-4, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > > > > > > On 9/29/2023 10:58 PM, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > > > SkyEcho is NOT approved for use in the United States.
> > > > > > > > For U.S. applications, see Sentry by ForeFlight
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And there is a link to:
> > > > > > > > https://flywithsentry.com/
> > > > > > > - The Sentry is ADS-B *in*. There are several inexpensive solutions for
> > > > > > > that. (PowerFLARM is one of them.) The issue at hand is low power,
> > > > > > > affordable, ADS-B *out*.
> > > > > > All,
> > > > > > The public comment period for the NPRM MOSAIC ends in 21 days, calling for some of the most sweeping changes in general aviation in years. Many aircraft will be affected, probably gliders too. The current group topic of non certified, portable ADSB is relevant and needed in this area. The collective, knowledge, and persuasiveness of this group could send a powerful messsage to our safety interested friends in the FAA. Consider commenting and encourage your friends to do so also. It costs nothing, and could possibly help a great deal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tidewater Soaring Society operates in a high traffic area in the approaches to Langley AFB, Norfolk City, Williamsburg/ Newport News and several surrounding GA airports. After a number of close calls, we entered into an agreement with Norfolk
> > > > > > Approach to notify them when we operated and received a squak number for our gliders. We have equipped all our club gliders and tow planes with transponders and have seen the close calls decrease. We would welcome this next step in safety for us all.
> > > > > > NPRM Public comment link below
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tom Watson
> > > > > > Tidewater Soaring Society
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.regulations.gov/commenton/FAA-2023-1377-0001
> > > > > Tom, thank you very much for this very informative and descriptive addition to this thread. I appears that your club has mirrored the proactive agreement that TCSC has with WPB, Vero Beach through the FSDO and regional office of the FAA in Atlanta. It is time for a change, and it is well past due. The inclusion of a portable ADSB device is a game changer, a huge safety factor increase and an affordable solution to all soaring pilots alike.
> > > > > No longer do we need transponders in gliders that are not equipped with such, as you stated the next step is safety for all of us, and it is long past due.
> > > > > The SSA and the EAA should be much more proactive in this effort to make a change that protects GA plots like us glider pilots. I encourage all SSA and EAA members to participate in the NPRM opportunity. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > I agree, this is a great chance to add our comments.
> > > > The only reference to ADS-B or transponders is in section D7:
> > > > D. Certification of Light-Sport Category Aircraft.....7. Instruments and Equipment
> > > > (you can do a control+F to quickly find the word transponder)
> > > > I copied the relevant part below in quotes....
> > > >
> > > > "Additionally, light-sport category aircraft would also be more prone to fly in airspace requiring transponders and ADS–B equipment as aircraft designers may be more willing to install this equipment. This equipment enhances safety of the national airspace system by making an aircraft visible to air traffic control and to other appropriately equipped aircraft, promoting the separation of aircraft, and decreasing the risk of mid-air collision."
> > > >
> > > > I think it odd that this lengthy document covers so much of the aircraft structure and pilot certification, but only two sentences about reducing risk of mid-air collisions. There is useful and low-cost technology available to "see and be seen" that would be very helpful beyond air traffic control visibility.
> > > >
> > > > As Tom and Bob said, please add your comments to this document...maybe we can make a difference!
> > > The reference seems to about regulation changes for LSA and experimentals that want to fly at night and in IMC that encourage equipping those aircraft with transponders and ADS-B, not about lower cost transponder and ADSB to do the encouraging. Or did I miss something?
> > >
> > > How about pilots in UK, New Zealand, and Australia? Are you buying and using SkyEcho? Is it making airspace safer or more available to you? Does anyone have any idea why it's just these three countries that can use it, and not so many other countries?
> > Eric, it is because they allow the portability of the unit. I works extremely well, it is affordable, readily available and will make flying gliders more safe, it is truly amazing that the UK, New Zealand and Australia have safer airspace than the US. Maybe they don't have as much bureaucratic BS to go through. OBTP
> Maybe it's all British rule, thus commonality between the 3 countries?
> I like Flarm in the US, at least I can see some traffic coming even if they can't see me on a screen. I'm in the NY metro area, so, 3 large airports nearby, a VOR not far away, and "crank" intersection just above.
The FAA extended the comment deadline on MOSAIC light sport aircraft until Jan 22, 2024, due to requests from various aircraft groups (SSA not one of them). There is still time to offer your comments about Electronic Conspicuity and encourage the FAA to improve safety by allowing a low-cost ADS-B OUT solution for use outside of tower-controlled airspace.