Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
> On 6 Apr 2024 22:05:35 GMT, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
>
>> On 6 Apr 2024 at 21:39:25 BST, "Cursitor Doom" <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 19:37:27 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 00:35:46 +0200, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund
>>>> <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 05-04-2024 23:22, john larkin wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 16:26:49 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/5/2024 3:49 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 4 Apr 2024 12:20:19 -0400) it happened bitrex
>>>>>>>> <user@example.net> wrote in <660ed343$0$1258343$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My most useful old machine dollar for dollar is my 8012B pulse generator!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://imgur.com/a/2GaSZVq>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nice, real components...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> $50 "not working." It was just a burned-out pilot lamp and dirty controls.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> mm 50 dollars,
>>>>>>>> even today with people using dollars for wallpaper,
>>>>>>>> buys you a nice pulse generator on ebay..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It cost $1700 USD in the 1987 catalog, about $4500 equivalent today!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 555 timer works fine too
>>>>>>>> Or use sox in Linux for all sort of audio, including sweeps:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/howto-sox-audio-tool-as-a-signal-generator.4242/
>>>>>>>> or just use a Raspberry Pi as signal generator:
>>>>>>>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#freq_pi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our DDG is about $4K, addmittedly over the top for a home lab.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://highlandtechnology.com/DSS/P500DS.shtml
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I love my beat-up old unit on my bench. Timing and levels are
>>>>>> brutally quantitative.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I bought a Siglent DDS SDG6022X for 1300USD, 200MHz thingie. I knew
>>>>> forehand that it could be hacked to 500MHz, so "saved" 3000 USD for 1
>>>>> hours work :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.batronix.com/shop/waveform-generator/Siglent-SDG6022X.html
>>>>>
>>>>> EEVBLOG has hacking details if anyone is interested...
>>>>
>>>> We bought a few Rigol 300 MHz 4-chan scopes and insisted that they
>>>> throw in the 500 MHz upgrade.
>>>>
>>>> I remember when FFT was an extra-cost feature. Now it's free.
>>>
>>> Excuse me for being a bit slow on the uptake here, but it seems to me
>>> that there are a *lot* of products which are fundamentally all
>>> manufactured to the same spec - but then deliberately crippled unless
>>> you pay some sort of ransom to have them 'unlocked' as it were. Would
>>> that be correct or am I being too cynical?
>>
>> No, but is differentiating products on softwar supplies any different from
>> differentiating them on hardware? Cheap ones simply wouldn't be available to
>> hobbyists if they had to sell them all as top of the range, where they make
>> the money for the effort to make a high bandwidth scope. There is also the
>> advantage that they can perhaps be hacked by well-informed hobbyists, but most
>> commercial buyers wouldn't be happy doing that for one or another reason.
>
> AFAIC, it *does* matter if the limitations are in hardware or
> software. In the case of scopes for example, good bandwidth don't
> come cheap! So if you're going to go to the expense of developing high
> bandwidth capability it just seems like self-mutilation to cripple all
> that hard work to produce an inferior product.
>

Depends.

The value of a thing is what a willing buyer will pay for it in a free and
stable market. (*) That has only an oblique connection with the BOM and
engineering costs.

Then there are economies of scale. Parts get cheaper when you buy more of
them, so if you build only your high-end model, the total BOM cost may well
go down. Certainly the cost of engineering, testing, and inventory will go
down.

Keeping inventory of finished goods down also reduces business risk and tax
liability, because most companies have to pay taxes as though it was
already sold. (There are probably tax advantages to keeping inventory of
nearly-finished goods instead.)

So there are lots of reasons to sell what some customers might regard as
crippleware.

That being said, I don’t think it immoral for folks to figure out how to
unlock the other features. It’s not that hard to prevent, if you really
care to.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

(*) Yes, there are issues with the time-dependence of actual markets, but
then honesty and fair dealing are themselves valuable.)

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 14:48:38 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 22:21:45 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 10:15:43 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 17:33:12 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:49:30 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 4 Apr 2024 11:56:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Phil Hobbs
>>>>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
>>>>>> <uum4h6$kmdl$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 01-04-2024 09:01, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Mar 2024 18:41:18 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
>>>>>>>>> <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <9k7j0jlnbhs8qfg5m17pium0835meean83@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>>>>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>>>>>>>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>>>>>>>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>>>>>>>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>>>>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>>>>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>>>>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>>>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>>>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>>>>>>>> I experience.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> CD.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My 10 MHz Trio dual trace analog scope is from 1979 or there about, I
>>>>>>>>> blew up a channel once myself in the first week
>>>>>>>>> when I accidently touched a booster diode in a TV I was repairing with
>>>>>>>>> it, fixed it locating the problem with the other channel.
>>>>>>>>> Later I cracked the graticule when a soldering station fell on it from
>>>>>>>>> the table (scope stands on the ground)
>>>>>>>>> Made a new graticule.
>>>>>>>>> So, and still working perfectly, OK for all things I build with micros.
>>>>>>>>> For RF to about 1.6 GHz I use RTL_SDR USB sticks and the spectrum analyzer I wrote.
>>>>>>>>> and for AC DC measurements I have some made in China digital
>>>>>>>>> meters and an analog one.
>>>>>>>>> also a Voltcraft clamp-on meter for current when you do not - or cannot
>>>>>>>>> interrupt things with the meter impedance.
>>>>>>>>> Also have a Voltcraft soldering station.
>>>>>>>>> Blew up one of my digital meters a while back (volts on the resistance
>>>>>>>>> scale) but fixed it again (replaced resistor).
>>>>>>>>> Many other test equipment I designed and build, like amplifiers LF and
>>>>>>>>> RF, SWR meter, radiation meters, gamma spectrometer,
>>>>>>>>> GHz stuff for satelite, transmitters low and very high power, what not,
>>>>>>>>> a frequency converter to use the RTL-SDR sticks and so the spectrum
>>>>>>>>> analyzer on higher and lower frequencies.
>>>>>>>>> Have a SARK100 SWR analyzer too.
>>>>>>>>> Things last forever here...
>>>>>>>>> Scope used on a regular basis..
>>>>>>>>> RTL-SDR stick 24/7.
>>>>>>>>> Digital meters used every day.
>>>>>>>>> Use my self designed lab power supply every day..
>>>>>>>>> What more do you need?
>>>>>>>>> Learn to use the stuff, understand what's important, and that is it
>>>>>>>>> When I started in electronics as a kid I did not even _have_ a
>>>>>>>>> meter, still stuff worked.
>>>>>>>>> Build my own scope at some point back then when I somehow got the parts
>>>>>>>>> Not much pocket mony as a kid.
>>>>>>>>> UNDERSTAND your systems, what electrons do.
>>>>>>>>> Showing of with boat anchors may impress people, especially the clueless...
>>>>>>>>> But it does not help you one bit.
>>>>>>>>> Anything with an accuracy better than 1 percent in most cases is just
>>>>>>>>> like apes screaming load trying to impress other apes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Very true about specifically the 1% statement. Sidebar, at an earlier
>>>>>>>> employment, we needed to equip a new lab. Guys wanted GHz scopes. When
>>>>>>>> asked if the ever looked at edges faster than 1ns, no one did.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It’s true that there are a lot of relatively undemanding jobs in
>>>>>>> electronics. You can get on fine with a 200-MHz scope if all you’re doing
>>>>>>> is PIC and Pi and ham radio and analog TV.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bull,
>>>>>> I have been using my Trio 10 MHz dual channel for digital TV too
>>>>>> see
>>>>>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>>>>> GHz output..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Its is about UNDERSTANDING the systems
>>>>>> You cannot repair a TV set in a short time if you do not UNDERSTAND
>>>>>> every part of the circuit and its function, the whole system
>>>>>> neither with a 10 MHz or with a 10 GHz scope.
>>>>>> Fault finding had been my job most of the time, sometimes with 'the show must go on'
>>>>>> or rocket must launch or whatever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In an environment a million times more complex than your back-room with boat anchors.
>>>>>> And always delivered.. unlike some that dropped out or broke down.
>>>>>> It is indeed about what is between the ears as you mentioned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It’s also true that you can often make do with what you have—the most
>>>>>>> important test instrument is the one between your ears.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the before times, doctors were much better with stethoscopes than they
>>>>>>> are now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I’d sure prefer a cardiologist who could use tomography and ultrasound
>>>>>>> over the best stethoscope guy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only useful if you can read the screens, these days they train AI to
>>>>>> find cancer in the scans.....
>>>>>> Yes I worked in an Uni hospital too.
>>>>>> How many people die each year because of medical errors?
>>>>>> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html
>>>>>> Remember Jim Thompson stating 'they are giving me ... but I had a
>>>>>> warning I was not supposed to get that'
>>>>>> Few days later he was dead.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim had pancreatic cancer, which is notoriously tricky to diagnose due
>>>>> to the misleading symptoms it gives rise to.
>>>>
>>>> He talked constantly about wine. That can kill your pancreas.
>>>>
>>>> There are people who drink bottles per day.
>>>
>>> Oh yes, he loved his wine alright. As I recall, you sent him several
>>> cases of the stuff over the years. But no amount of peace offerings
>>> could placate Jim if he felt you'd disrespected him. Anyway, all
>>> credit to you for at least trying to heal the rift, even if it came to
>>> naught.
>>
>> I think I sent him two bottles of Frog's Tooth, not cases.
>>
>> I get the Frog's Tooth free. The vintner is also our sales rep for
>> pick+place gear, and he throws in a bottle or a case with every big
>> order.
>>
>> JT was a little touchy at times (never me!) but we didn't actually
>> have a rift. I think that serious electronics designers always get
>> along pretty well. Circuit design is a sport that we play.
>>
>> I miss JT. He was fun. I often drive on Thompkins Street and it
>> reminds me of him.
>
> I think the passage of time has mellowed your recollections, John.
> Shortly after he died, you called him a crabby old man! There was
> something about you he clearly didn't much like. No idea why, since
> you've never come across as anything but well-mannered and helpful as
> far as I can tell.
> Jim gave me a hell of a rough time when I first arrived here back in
> '96. He didn't suffer fools gladly and boy did he let me know when he
> believed I was one. But that did me a huge favour. He did have a point
> inasmuch as my fundamental electronics knowledge needed a lot of
> remedial attention. So he forced me to sit down and go back through
> all the stuff I should have known before I came here and I became much
> better for it. And when I finally did, he praised me for it. Praise
> from Jim was praise indeed! He was a GIANT of this group and I miss
> him terribly, too.
>

In article <hqm41jp3o9stavmgk86j8nmqhm49a8co72@4ax.com>,
cd@notformail.com says...
>
> >No, but is differentiating products on softwar supplies any different from
> >differentiating them on hardware? Cheap ones simply wouldn't be available to
> >hobbyists if they had to sell them all as top of the range, where they make
> >the money for the effort to make a high bandwidth scope. There is also the
> >advantage that they can perhaps be hacked by well-informed hobbyists, but most
> >commercial buyers wouldn't be happy doing that for one or another reason.
>
> AFAIC, it *does* matter if the limitations are in hardware or
> software. In the case of scopes for example, good bandwidth don't
> come cheap! So if you're going to go to the expense of developing high
> bandwidth capability it just seems like self-mutilation to cripple all
> that hard work to produce an inferior product.
>
>

From what I am seeing on the Internet there are some scopes that the
software limits them but to get the full bandwidth some components need
to be changed. I bought a China function generator and while it does
not have a software upgrade there are several components to be changed
that make it function better at higher frequencies.

I heard some cars have functions that can be turned on and off remotely
so they can charge you yearly.

The sat and cable TV is like that . The equipment is the same but they
only enable the channels you pay for.

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 09:50:50 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 14:48:38 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 22:21:45 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 10:15:43 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 17:33:12 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:49:30 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On a sunny day (Thu, 4 Apr 2024 11:56:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Phil Hobbs
>>>>>><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
>>>>>><uum4h6$kmdl$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 01-04-2024 09:01, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Mar 2024 18:41:18 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
>>>>>>>>> <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <9k7j0jlnbhs8qfg5m17pium0835meean83@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>>>>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>>>>>>>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>>>>>>>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>>>>>>>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>>>>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>>>>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>>>>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>>>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>>>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>>>>>>>> I experience.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> CD.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My 10 MHz Trio dual trace analog scope is from 1979 or there about, I
>>>>>>>>> blew up a channel once myself in the first week
>>>>>>>>> when I accidently touched a booster diode in a TV I was repairing with
>>>>>>>>> it, fixed it locating the problem with the other channel.
>>>>>>>>> Later I cracked the graticule when a soldering station fell on it from
>>>>>>>>> the table (scope stands on the ground)
>>>>>>>>> Made a new graticule.
>>>>>>>>> So, and still working perfectly, OK for all things I build with micros.
>>>>>>>>> For RF to about 1.6 GHz I use RTL_SDR USB sticks and the spectrum analyzer I wrote.
>>>>>>>>> and for AC DC measurements I have some made in China digital meters and an analog one.
>>>>>>>>> also a Voltcraft clamp-on meter for current when you do not - or cannot
>>>>>>>>> interrupt things with the meter impedance.
>>>>>>>>> Also have a Voltcraft soldering station.
>>>>>>>>> Blew up one of my digital meters a while back (volts on the resistance
>>>>>>>>> scale) but fixed it again (replaced resistor).
>>>>>>>>> Many other test equipment I designed and build, like amplifiers LF and
>>>>>>>>> RF, SWR meter, radiation meters, gamma spectrometer,
>>>>>>>>> GHz stuff for satelite, transmitters low and very high power, what not,
>>>>>>>>> a frequency converter to use the RTL-SDR sticks and so the spectrum
>>>>>>>>> analyzer on higher and lower frequencies.
>>>>>>>>> Have a SARK100 SWR analyzer too.
>>>>>>>>> Things last forever here...
>>>>>>>>> Scope used on a regular basis..
>>>>>>>>> RTL-SDR stick 24/7.
>>>>>>>>> Digital meters used every day.
>>>>>>>>> Use my self designed lab power supply every day..
>>>>>>>>> What more do you need?
>>>>>>>>> Learn to use the stuff, understand what's important, and that is it
>>>>>>>>> When I started in electronics as a kid I did not even _have_ a meter, still stuff worked.
>>>>>>>>> Build my own scope at some point back then when I somehow got the parts
>>>>>>>>> Not much pocket mony as a kid.
>>>>>>>>> UNDERSTAND your systems, what electrons do.
>>>>>>>>> Showing of with boat anchors may impress people, especially the clueless...
>>>>>>>>> But it does not help you one bit.
>>>>>>>>> Anything with an accuracy better than 1 percent in most cases is just
>>>>>>>>> like apes screaming load trying to impress other apes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Very true about specifically the 1% statement. Sidebar, at an earlier
>>>>>>>> employment, we needed to equip a new lab. Guys wanted GHz scopes. When
>>>>>>>> asked if the ever looked at edges faster than 1ns, no one did.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It’s true that there are a lot of relatively undemanding jobs in
>>>>>>>electronics. You can get on fine with a 200-MHz scope if all you’re doing
>>>>>>>is PIC and Pi and ham radio and analog TV.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Bull,
>>>>>>I have been using my Trio 10 MHz dual channel for digital TV too
>>>>>>see
>>>>>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>>>>>GHz output..
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Its is about UNDERSTANDING the systems
>>>>>>You cannot repair a TV set in a short time if you do not UNDERSTAND every part of the circuit and its function, the whole system
>>>>>>neither with a 10 MHz or with a 10 GHz scope.
>>>>>>Fault finding had been my job most of the time, sometimes with 'the show must go on'
>>>>>>or rocket must launch or whatever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In an environment a million times more complex than your back-room with boat anchors.
>>>>>>And always delivered.. unlike some that dropped out or broke down.
>>>>>>It is indeed about what is between the ears as you mentioned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It’s also true that you can often make do with what you have—the most
>>>>>>>important test instrument is the one between your ears.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In the before times, doctors were much better with stethoscopes than they
>>>>>>>are now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>But I’d sure prefer a cardiologist who could use tomography and ultrasound
>>>>>>>over the best stethoscope guy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Only useful if you can read the screens, these days they train AI to find cancer in the scans.....
>>>>>>Yes I worked in an Uni hospital too.
>>>>>>How many people die each year because of medical errors?
>>>>>> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html
>>>>>>Remember Jim Thompson stating 'they are giving me ... but I had a warning I was not supposed to get that'
>>>>>>Few days later he was dead.
>>>>>
>>>>>Jim had pancreatic cancer, which is notoriously tricky to diagnose due
>>>>>to the misleading symptoms it gives rise to.
>>>>
>>>>He talked constantly about wine. That can kill your pancreas.
>>>>
>>>>There are people who drink bottles per day.
>>>
>>>Oh yes, he loved his wine alright. As I recall, you sent him several
>>>cases of the stuff over the years. But no amount of peace offerings
>>>could placate Jim if he felt you'd disrespected him. Anyway, all
>>>credit to you for at least trying to heal the rift, even if it came to
>>>naught.
>>
>>I think I sent him two bottles of Frog's Tooth, not cases.
>>
>>I get the Frog's Tooth free. The vintner is also our sales rep for
>>pick+place gear, and he throws in a bottle or a case with every big
>>order.
>>
>>JT was a little touchy at times (never me!) but we didn't actually
>>have a rift. I think that serious electronics designers always get
>>along pretty well. Circuit design is a sport that we play.
>>
>>I miss JT. He was fun. I often drive on Thompkins Street and it
>>reminds me of him.
>
>I think the passage of time has mellowed your recollections, John.
>Shortly after he died, you called him a crabby old man!

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 09:40:03 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 09:50:50 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 14:48:38 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 22:21:45 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 10:15:43 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 17:33:12 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:49:30 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On a sunny day (Thu, 4 Apr 2024 11:56:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Phil Hobbs
>>>>>>><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
>>>>>>><uum4h6$kmdl$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 01-04-2024 09:01, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Mar 2024 18:41:18 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
>>>>>>>>>> <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <9k7j0jlnbhs8qfg5m17pium0835meean83@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>>>>>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>>>>>>>>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>>>>>>>>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>>>>>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>>>>>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>>>>>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>>>>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>>>>>>>>> I experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> CD.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My 10 MHz Trio dual trace analog scope is from 1979 or there about, I
>>>>>>>>>> blew up a channel once myself in the first week
>>>>>>>>>> when I accidently touched a booster diode in a TV I was repairing with
>>>>>>>>>> it, fixed it locating the problem with the other channel.
>>>>>>>>>> Later I cracked the graticule when a soldering station fell on it from
>>>>>>>>>> the table (scope stands on the ground)
>>>>>>>>>> Made a new graticule.
>>>>>>>>>> So, and still working perfectly, OK for all things I build with micros.
>>>>>>>>>> For RF to about 1.6 GHz I use RTL_SDR USB sticks and the spectrum analyzer I wrote.
>>>>>>>>>> and for AC DC measurements I have some made in China digital meters and an analog one.
>>>>>>>>>> also a Voltcraft clamp-on meter for current when you do not - or cannot
>>>>>>>>>> interrupt things with the meter impedance.
>>>>>>>>>> Also have a Voltcraft soldering station.
>>>>>>>>>> Blew up one of my digital meters a while back (volts on the resistance
>>>>>>>>>> scale) but fixed it again (replaced resistor).
>>>>>>>>>> Many other test equipment I designed and build, like amplifiers LF and
>>>>>>>>>> RF, SWR meter, radiation meters, gamma spectrometer,
>>>>>>>>>> GHz stuff for satelite, transmitters low and very high power, what not,
>>>>>>>>>> a frequency converter to use the RTL-SDR sticks and so the spectrum
>>>>>>>>>> analyzer on higher and lower frequencies.
>>>>>>>>>> Have a SARK100 SWR analyzer too.
>>>>>>>>>> Things last forever here...
>>>>>>>>>> Scope used on a regular basis..
>>>>>>>>>> RTL-SDR stick 24/7.
>>>>>>>>>> Digital meters used every day.
>>>>>>>>>> Use my self designed lab power supply every day..
>>>>>>>>>> What more do you need?
>>>>>>>>>> Learn to use the stuff, understand what's important, and that is it
>>>>>>>>>> When I started in electronics as a kid I did not even _have_ a meter, still stuff worked.
>>>>>>>>>> Build my own scope at some point back then when I somehow got the parts
>>>>>>>>>> Not much pocket mony as a kid.
>>>>>>>>>> UNDERSTAND your systems, what electrons do.
>>>>>>>>>> Showing of with boat anchors may impress people, especially the clueless...
>>>>>>>>>> But it does not help you one bit.
>>>>>>>>>> Anything with an accuracy better than 1 percent in most cases is just
>>>>>>>>>> like apes screaming load trying to impress other apes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Very true about specifically the 1% statement. Sidebar, at an earlier
>>>>>>>>> employment, we needed to equip a new lab. Guys wanted GHz scopes. When
>>>>>>>>> asked if the ever looked at edges faster than 1ns, no one did.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It’s true that there are a lot of relatively undemanding jobs in
>>>>>>>>electronics. You can get on fine with a 200-MHz scope if all you’re doing
>>>>>>>>is PIC and Pi and ham radio and analog TV.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Bull,
>>>>>>>I have been using my Trio 10 MHz dual channel for digital TV too
>>>>>>>see
>>>>>>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>>>>>>GHz output..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Its is about UNDERSTANDING the systems
>>>>>>>You cannot repair a TV set in a short time if you do not UNDERSTAND every part of the circuit and its function, the whole system
>>>>>>>neither with a 10 MHz or with a 10 GHz scope.
>>>>>>>Fault finding had been my job most of the time, sometimes with 'the show must go on'
>>>>>>>or rocket must launch or whatever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In an environment a million times more complex than your back-room with boat anchors.
>>>>>>>And always delivered.. unlike some that dropped out or broke down.
>>>>>>>It is indeed about what is between the ears as you mentioned.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It’s also true that you can often make do with what you have—the most
>>>>>>>>important test instrument is the one between your ears.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>In the before times, doctors were much better with stethoscopes than they
>>>>>>>>are now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>But I’d sure prefer a cardiologist who could use tomography and ultrasound
>>>>>>>>over the best stethoscope guy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Only useful if you can read the screens, these days they train AI to find cancer in the scans.....
>>>>>>>Yes I worked in an Uni hospital too.
>>>>>>>How many people die each year because of medical errors?
>>>>>>> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html
>>>>>>>Remember Jim Thompson stating 'they are giving me ... but I had a warning I was not supposed to get that'
>>>>>>>Few days later he was dead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jim had pancreatic cancer, which is notoriously tricky to diagnose due
>>>>>>to the misleading symptoms it gives rise to.
>>>>>
>>>>>He talked constantly about wine. That can kill your pancreas.
>>>>>
>>>>>There are people who drink bottles per day.
>>>>
>>>>Oh yes, he loved his wine alright. As I recall, you sent him several
>>>>cases of the stuff over the years. But no amount of peace offerings
>>>>could placate Jim if he felt you'd disrespected him. Anyway, all
>>>>credit to you for at least trying to heal the rift, even if it came to
>>>>naught.
>>>
>>>I think I sent him two bottles of Frog's Tooth, not cases.
>>>
>>>I get the Frog's Tooth free. The vintner is also our sales rep for
>>>pick+place gear, and he throws in a bottle or a case with every big
>>>order.
>>>
>>>JT was a little touchy at times (never me!) but we didn't actually
>>>have a rift. I think that serious electronics designers always get
>>>along pretty well. Circuit design is a sport that we play.
>>>
>>>I miss JT. He was fun. I often drive on Thompkins Street and it
>>>reminds me of him.
>>
>>I think the passage of time has mellowed your recollections, John.
>>Shortly after he died, you called him a crabby old man!
>
>But he *was* a crabby old man. That's no big deal. He probably would
>have enjoyed the description. He died bravely.
>
>There was
>>something about you he clearly didn't much like.
>
>There was some teasing involved. We got along fine in emails.
>
>No idea why, since
>>you've never come across as anything but well-mannered and helpful as
>>far as I can tell.
>
>I can be crabby too, but that's a common hazard on an unmoderated
>public forum.
>
>>Jim gave me a hell of a rough time when I first arrived here back in
>>'96. He didn't suffer fools gladly and boy did he let me know when he
>>believed I was one. But that did me a huge favour. He did have a point
>>inasmuch as my fundamental electronics knowledge needed a lot of
>>remedial attention. So he forced me to sit down and go back through
>>all the stuff I should have known before I came here and I became much
>>better for it. And when I finally did, he praised me for it. Praise
>>from Jim was praise indeed! He was a GIANT of this group and I miss
>>him terribly, too.
>
>He wasn't a bad sort, but I wouldn't call someone a fool because they
>don't understand electronics. "Fool" is reserved for people who
>presume to expertise that they clearly don't have.

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 18:23:38 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 09:40:03 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 09:50:50 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 14:48:38 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 22:21:45 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 10:15:43 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 17:33:12 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:49:30 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On a sunny day (Thu, 4 Apr 2024 11:56:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Phil Hobbs
>>>>>>>><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
>>>>>>>><uum4h6$kmdl$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 01-04-2024 09:01, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Mar 2024 18:41:18 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
>>>>>>>>>>> <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <9k7j0jlnbhs8qfg5m17pium0835meean83@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>>>>>>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>>>>>>>>>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>>>>>>>>>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>>>>>>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>>>>>>>>>> I experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> CD.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My 10 MHz Trio dual trace analog scope is from 1979 or there about, I
>>>>>>>>>>> blew up a channel once myself in the first week
>>>>>>>>>>> when I accidently touched a booster diode in a TV I was repairing with
>>>>>>>>>>> it, fixed it locating the problem with the other channel.
>>>>>>>>>>> Later I cracked the graticule when a soldering station fell on it from
>>>>>>>>>>> the table (scope stands on the ground)
>>>>>>>>>>> Made a new graticule.
>>>>>>>>>>> So, and still working perfectly, OK for all things I build with micros.
>>>>>>>>>>> For RF to about 1.6 GHz I use RTL_SDR USB sticks and the spectrum analyzer I wrote.
>>>>>>>>>>> and for AC DC measurements I have some made in China digital meters and an analog one.
>>>>>>>>>>> also a Voltcraft clamp-on meter for current when you do not - or cannot
>>>>>>>>>>> interrupt things with the meter impedance.
>>>>>>>>>>> Also have a Voltcraft soldering station.
>>>>>>>>>>> Blew up one of my digital meters a while back (volts on the resistance
>>>>>>>>>>> scale) but fixed it again (replaced resistor).
>>>>>>>>>>> Many other test equipment I designed and build, like amplifiers LF and
>>>>>>>>>>> RF, SWR meter, radiation meters, gamma spectrometer,
>>>>>>>>>>> GHz stuff for satelite, transmitters low and very high power, what not,
>>>>>>>>>>> a frequency converter to use the RTL-SDR sticks and so the spectrum
>>>>>>>>>>> analyzer on higher and lower frequencies.
>>>>>>>>>>> Have a SARK100 SWR analyzer too.
>>>>>>>>>>> Things last forever here...
>>>>>>>>>>> Scope used on a regular basis..
>>>>>>>>>>> RTL-SDR stick 24/7.
>>>>>>>>>>> Digital meters used every day.
>>>>>>>>>>> Use my self designed lab power supply every day..
>>>>>>>>>>> What more do you need?
>>>>>>>>>>> Learn to use the stuff, understand what's important, and that is it
>>>>>>>>>>> When I started in electronics as a kid I did not even _have_ a meter, still stuff worked.
>>>>>>>>>>> Build my own scope at some point back then when I somehow got the parts
>>>>>>>>>>> Not much pocket mony as a kid.
>>>>>>>>>>> UNDERSTAND your systems, what electrons do.
>>>>>>>>>>> Showing of with boat anchors may impress people, especially the clueless...
>>>>>>>>>>> But it does not help you one bit.
>>>>>>>>>>> Anything with an accuracy better than 1 percent in most cases is just
>>>>>>>>>>> like apes screaming load trying to impress other apes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Very true about specifically the 1% statement. Sidebar, at an earlier
>>>>>>>>>> employment, we needed to equip a new lab. Guys wanted GHz scopes. When
>>>>>>>>>> asked if the ever looked at edges faster than 1ns, no one did.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>It’s true that there are a lot of relatively undemanding jobs in
>>>>>>>>>electronics. You can get on fine with a 200-MHz scope if all you’re doing
>>>>>>>>>is PIC and Pi and ham radio and analog TV.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Bull,
>>>>>>>>I have been using my Trio 10 MHz dual channel for digital TV too
>>>>>>>>see
>>>>>>>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>>>>>>>GHz output..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Its is about UNDERSTANDING the systems
>>>>>>>>You cannot repair a TV set in a short time if you do not UNDERSTAND every part of the circuit and its function, the whole system
>>>>>>>>neither with a 10 MHz or with a 10 GHz scope.
>>>>>>>>Fault finding had been my job most of the time, sometimes with 'the show must go on'
>>>>>>>>or rocket must launch or whatever.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>In an environment a million times more complex than your back-room with boat anchors.
>>>>>>>>And always delivered.. unlike some that dropped out or broke down.
>>>>>>>>It is indeed about what is between the ears as you mentioned.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>It’s also true that you can often make do with what you have—the most
>>>>>>>>>important test instrument is the one between your ears.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>In the before times, doctors were much better with stethoscopes than they
>>>>>>>>>are now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>But I’d sure prefer a cardiologist who could use tomography and ultrasound
>>>>>>>>>over the best stethoscope guy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Only useful if you can read the screens, these days they train AI to find cancer in the scans.....
>>>>>>>>Yes I worked in an Uni hospital too.
>>>>>>>>How many people die each year because of medical errors?
>>>>>>>> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html
>>>>>>>>Remember Jim Thompson stating 'they are giving me ... but I had a warning I was not supposed to get that'
>>>>>>>>Few days later he was dead.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Jim had pancreatic cancer, which is notoriously tricky to diagnose due
>>>>>>>to the misleading symptoms it gives rise to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>He talked constantly about wine. That can kill your pancreas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>There are people who drink bottles per day.
>>>>>
>>>>>Oh yes, he loved his wine alright. As I recall, you sent him several
>>>>>cases of the stuff over the years. But no amount of peace offerings
>>>>>could placate Jim if he felt you'd disrespected him. Anyway, all
>>>>>credit to you for at least trying to heal the rift, even if it came to
>>>>>naught.
>>>>
>>>>I think I sent him two bottles of Frog's Tooth, not cases.
>>>>
>>>>I get the Frog's Tooth free. The vintner is also our sales rep for
>>>>pick+place gear, and he throws in a bottle or a case with every big
>>>>order.
>>>>
>>>>JT was a little touchy at times (never me!) but we didn't actually
>>>>have a rift. I think that serious electronics designers always get
>>>>along pretty well. Circuit design is a sport that we play.
>>>>
>>>>I miss JT. He was fun. I often drive on Thompkins Street and it
>>>>reminds me of him.
>>>
>>>I think the passage of time has mellowed your recollections, John.
>>>Shortly after he died, you called him a crabby old man!
>>
>>But he *was* a crabby old man. That's no big deal. He probably would
>>have enjoyed the description. He died bravely.
>>
>>There was
>>>something about you he clearly didn't much like.
>>
>>There was some teasing involved. We got along fine in emails.
>>
>>No idea why, since
>>>you've never come across as anything but well-mannered and helpful as
>>>far as I can tell.
>>
>>I can be crabby too, but that's a common hazard on an unmoderated
>>public forum.
>>
>>>Jim gave me a hell of a rough time when I first arrived here back in
>>>'96. He didn't suffer fools gladly and boy did he let me know when he
>>>believed I was one. But that did me a huge favour. He did have a point
>>>inasmuch as my fundamental electronics knowledge needed a lot of
>>>remedial attention. So he forced me to sit down and go back through
>>>all the stuff I should have known before I came here and I became much
>>>better for it. And when I finally did, he praised me for it. Praise
>>>from Jim was praise indeed! He was a GIANT of this group and I miss
>>>him terribly, too.
>>
>>He wasn't a bad sort, but I wouldn't call someone a fool because they
>>don't understand electronics. "Fool" is reserved for people who
>>presume to expertise that they clearly don't have.
>
>Well, you're a great deal more equable than Jim was, despite the BMD,
>John.
>I found getting excoriated by Jim gave me the impetus I needed to get
>off my arse and engage in some serious study on the subject. He did me
>a huge favour as it was exactly the motivation I needed. I discovered
>I wasn't as accomplished at electronics as I thought I was. He put me
>in my place. My strengths lie in other areas and none of us can excel
>at everything. I'll never be a designer. I'm just a hobbyist and will
>ever remain one. But that's fine, because all the time I find it a
>challenge, I'll be hooked. I quickly lose interest in subjects that I
>find easy to master.

On 4/7/2024 5:38 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

>
>
> We all remember all sorts of stuff about Jim, much of it very good. He
> certainly raised the technical level here, which I for one miss very much.
++

>
> For the remainder, it’s best to follow the good old rule of not speaking
> ill of the dead (or of the living, mostly).
+100

Ed

> We stand or fall by what we
> make of what we’re given, which is well worth keeping in mind.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 11:11:51 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 18:23:38 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 09:40:03 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 09:50:50 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 14:48:38 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 22:21:45 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 10:15:43 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 17:33:12 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 07:49:30 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On a sunny day (Thu, 4 Apr 2024 11:56:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Phil Hobbs
>>>>>>>>><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
>>>>>>>>><uum4h6$kmdl$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 01-04-2024 09:01, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Mar 2024 18:41:18 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
>>>>>>>>>>>> <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <9k7j0jlnbhs8qfg5m17pium0835meean83@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>>>>>>>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CD.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My 10 MHz Trio dual trace analog scope is from 1979 or there about, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> blew up a channel once myself in the first week
>>>>>>>>>>>> when I accidently touched a booster diode in a TV I was repairing with
>>>>>>>>>>>> it, fixed it locating the problem with the other channel.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Later I cracked the graticule when a soldering station fell on it from
>>>>>>>>>>>> the table (scope stands on the ground)
>>>>>>>>>>>> Made a new graticule.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So, and still working perfectly, OK for all things I build with micros.
>>>>>>>>>>>> For RF to about 1.6 GHz I use RTL_SDR USB sticks and the spectrum analyzer I wrote.
>>>>>>>>>>>> and for AC DC measurements I have some made in China digital meters and an analog one.
>>>>>>>>>>>> also a Voltcraft clamp-on meter for current when you do not - or cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>> interrupt things with the meter impedance.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also have a Voltcraft soldering station.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Blew up one of my digital meters a while back (volts on the resistance
>>>>>>>>>>>> scale) but fixed it again (replaced resistor).
>>>>>>>>>>>> Many other test equipment I designed and build, like amplifiers LF and
>>>>>>>>>>>> RF, SWR meter, radiation meters, gamma spectrometer,
>>>>>>>>>>>> GHz stuff for satelite, transmitters low and very high power, what not,
>>>>>>>>>>>> a frequency converter to use the RTL-SDR sticks and so the spectrum
>>>>>>>>>>>> analyzer on higher and lower frequencies.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Have a SARK100 SWR analyzer too.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Things last forever here...
>>>>>>>>>>>> Scope used on a regular basis..
>>>>>>>>>>>> RTL-SDR stick 24/7.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Digital meters used every day.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Use my self designed lab power supply every day..
>>>>>>>>>>>> What more do you need?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Learn to use the stuff, understand what's important, and that is it
>>>>>>>>>>>> When I started in electronics as a kid I did not even _have_ a meter, still stuff worked.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Build my own scope at some point back then when I somehow got the parts
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not much pocket mony as a kid.
>>>>>>>>>>>> UNDERSTAND your systems, what electrons do.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Showing of with boat anchors may impress people, especially the clueless...
>>>>>>>>>>>> But it does not help you one bit.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anything with an accuracy better than 1 percent in most cases is just
>>>>>>>>>>>> like apes screaming load trying to impress other apes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Very true about specifically the 1% statement. Sidebar, at an earlier
>>>>>>>>>>> employment, we needed to equip a new lab. Guys wanted GHz scopes. When
>>>>>>>>>>> asked if the ever looked at edges faster than 1ns, no one did.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>It’s true that there are a lot of relatively undemanding jobs in
>>>>>>>>>>electronics. You can get on fine with a 200-MHz scope if all you’re doing
>>>>>>>>>>is PIC and Pi and ham radio and analog TV.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Bull,
>>>>>>>>>I have been using my Trio 10 MHz dual channel for digital TV too
>>>>>>>>>see
>>>>>>>>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>>>>>>>>GHz output..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Its is about UNDERSTANDING the systems
>>>>>>>>>You cannot repair a TV set in a short time if you do not UNDERSTAND every part of the circuit and its function, the whole system
>>>>>>>>>neither with a 10 MHz or with a 10 GHz scope.
>>>>>>>>>Fault finding had been my job most of the time, sometimes with 'the show must go on'
>>>>>>>>>or rocket must launch or whatever.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>In an environment a million times more complex than your back-room with boat anchors.
>>>>>>>>>And always delivered.. unlike some that dropped out or broke down.
>>>>>>>>>It is indeed about what is between the ears as you mentioned.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>It’s also true that you can often make do with what you have—the most
>>>>>>>>>>important test instrument is the one between your ears.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>In the before times, doctors were much better with stethoscopes than they
>>>>>>>>>>are now.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>But I’d sure prefer a cardiologist who could use tomography and ultrasound
>>>>>>>>>>over the best stethoscope guy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Only useful if you can read the screens, these days they train AI to find cancer in the scans.....
>>>>>>>>>Yes I worked in an Uni hospital too.
>>>>>>>>>How many people die each year because of medical errors?
>>>>>>>>> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html
>>>>>>>>>Remember Jim Thompson stating 'they are giving me ... but I had a warning I was not supposed to get that'
>>>>>>>>>Few days later he was dead.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Jim had pancreatic cancer, which is notoriously tricky to diagnose due
>>>>>>>>to the misleading symptoms it gives rise to.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>He talked constantly about wine. That can kill your pancreas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>There are people who drink bottles per day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Oh yes, he loved his wine alright. As I recall, you sent him several
>>>>>>cases of the stuff over the years. But no amount of peace offerings
>>>>>>could placate Jim if he felt you'd disrespected him. Anyway, all
>>>>>>credit to you for at least trying to heal the rift, even if it came to
>>>>>>naught.
>>>>>
>>>>>I think I sent him two bottles of Frog's Tooth, not cases.
>>>>>
>>>>>I get the Frog's Tooth free. The vintner is also our sales rep for
>>>>>pick+place gear, and he throws in a bottle or a case with every big
>>>>>order.
>>>>>
>>>>>JT was a little touchy at times (never me!) but we didn't actually
>>>>>have a rift. I think that serious electronics designers always get
>>>>>along pretty well. Circuit design is a sport that we play.
>>>>>
>>>>>I miss JT. He was fun. I often drive on Thompkins Street and it
>>>>>reminds me of him.
>>>>
>>>>I think the passage of time has mellowed your recollections, John.
>>>>Shortly after he died, you called him a crabby old man!
>>>
>>>But he *was* a crabby old man. That's no big deal. He probably would
>>>have enjoyed the description. He died bravely.
>>>
>>>There was
>>>>something about you he clearly didn't much like.
>>>
>>>There was some teasing involved. We got along fine in emails.
>>>
>>>No idea why, since
>>>>you've never come across as anything but well-mannered and helpful as
>>>>far as I can tell.
>>>
>>>I can be crabby too, but that's a common hazard on an unmoderated
>>>public forum.
>>>
>>>>Jim gave me a hell of a rough time when I first arrived here back in
>>>>'96. He didn't suffer fools gladly and boy did he let me know when he
>>>>believed I was one. But that did me a huge favour. He did have a point
>>>>inasmuch as my fundamental electronics knowledge needed a lot of
>>>>remedial attention. So he forced me to sit down and go back through
>>>>all the stuff I should have known before I came here and I became much
>>>>better for it. And when I finally did, he praised me for it. Praise
>>>>from Jim was praise indeed! He was a GIANT of this group and I miss
>>>>him terribly, too.
>>>
>>>He wasn't a bad sort, but I wouldn't call someone a fool because they
>>>don't understand electronics. "Fool" is reserved for people who
>>>presume to expertise that they clearly don't have.
>>
>>Well, you're a great deal more equable than Jim was, despite the BMD,
>>John.
>>I found getting excoriated by Jim gave me the impetus I needed to get
>>off my arse and engage in some serious study on the subject. He did me
>>a huge favour as it was exactly the motivation I needed. I discovered
>>I wasn't as accomplished at electronics as I thought I was. He put me
>>in my place. My strengths lie in other areas and none of us can excel
>>at everything. I'll never be a designer. I'm just a hobbyist and will
>>ever remain one. But that's fine, because all the time I find it a
>>challenge, I'll be hooked. I quickly lose interest in subjects that I
>>find easy to master.
>
>I think that electronics design is instinctive, and only some people
>have those instincts, and they usually acquire them at a very early
>age. It's not fair, for those people who have the instincts, to
>denegerate people who don't. I suck at tennis and music and French.
>
>I'm now mightly confused with switching four tapped inductors around
>with relays. What idiot decided that inductance should increase with
>turns squared?

On 1/04/2024 4:41 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
> time which could be better spent doing other things.
> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
> I experience.
>
> Thanks,
>
> CD.

**In my 55 years of servicing, I've only blown up one thing: A Micronta
DMM, which I connected to a laser power supply. I should not have done
it. Clear operator failure. Everything else works just fine. Even my
first multimeter. A Sanwa U-50D my dad gave me on my 14th birthday.
Still works fine. My first DMM. A cheap 'n cheerful SOAR. Works just
fine. My first Fluke meter. A 40 year old Fluke 85. Works fine. I've had
to clean the switch a few times. Otherwise, no problems. Ditto my other
15 or so meters. Same deal with my 'scopes.

I don't know what your problem is. Test equipment, when treated properly
lasts a long time.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:40:02 +1000, Trevor Wilson
<trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

>On 1/04/2024 4:41 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>> I experience.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> CD.
>
>**In my 55 years of servicing, I've only blown up one thing: A Micronta
>DMM, which I connected to a laser power supply. I should not have done
>it. Clear operator failure. Everything else works just fine. Even my
>first multimeter. A Sanwa U-50D my dad gave me on my 14th birthday.
>Still works fine. My first DMM. A cheap 'n cheerful SOAR. Works just
>fine. My first Fluke meter. A 40 year old Fluke 85. Works fine. I've had
>to clean the switch a few times. Otherwise, no problems. Ditto my other
>15 or so meters. Same deal with my 'scopes.
>
>I don't know what your problem is. Test equipment, when treated properly
>lasts a long time.

To be fair, these "explosions" are typically capacitors: old, dried
-out electrolytics in test gear that hasn't been used in a long time
go bang when the power's switched on - as do old X2 safety caps. Those
are the chief culprits IME.

On 11/04/2024 3:42 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:40:02 +1000, Trevor Wilson
> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>> On 1/04/2024 4:41 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>> I experience.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> CD.
>>
>> **In my 55 years of servicing, I've only blown up one thing: A Micronta
>> DMM, which I connected to a laser power supply. I should not have done
>> it. Clear operator failure. Everything else works just fine. Even my
>> first multimeter. A Sanwa U-50D my dad gave me on my 14th birthday.
>> Still works fine. My first DMM. A cheap 'n cheerful SOAR. Works just
>> fine. My first Fluke meter. A 40 year old Fluke 85. Works fine. I've had
>> to clean the switch a few times. Otherwise, no problems. Ditto my other
>> 15 or so meters. Same deal with my 'scopes.
>>
>> I don't know what your problem is. Test equipment, when treated properly
>> lasts a long time.
>
> To be fair, these "explosions" are typically capacitors: old, dried
> -out electrolytics in test gear that hasn't been used in a long time
> go bang when the power's switched on - as do old X2 safety caps. Those
> are the chief culprits IME.

**Oh, I see. You ignore regular maintenance. That makes sense. I hope no
one buys a car from you.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

On 2024-04-10 16:30, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 11/04/2024 3:42 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:40:02 +1000, Trevor Wilson
>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/04/2024 4:41 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>> I experience.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> CD.
>>>
>>> **In my 55 years of servicing, I've only blown up one thing: A Micronta
>>> DMM, which I connected to a laser power supply. I should not have done
>>> it. Clear operator failure. Everything else works just fine. Even my
>>> first multimeter. A Sanwa U-50D my dad gave me on my 14th birthday.
>>> Still works fine. My first DMM. A cheap 'n cheerful SOAR. Works just
>>> fine. My first Fluke meter. A 40 year old Fluke 85. Works fine. I've had
>>> to clean the switch a few times. Otherwise, no problems. Ditto my other
>>> 15 or so meters. Same deal with my 'scopes.
>>>
>>> I don't know what your problem is. Test equipment, when treated properly
>>> lasts a long time.
>>
>> To be fair, these "explosions" are typically capacitors: old, dried
>> -out electrolytics in test gear that hasn't been used in a long time
>> go bang when the power's switched on - as do old X2 safety caps. Those
>> are the chief culprits IME.
>
> **Oh, I see. You ignore regular maintenance. That makes sense. I hope no
> one buys a car from you.
>

Whereas all you Ozites are 100% rational reasonable polite beings who
are always on top of everything, including predicting the exact date
when an old cap will give up the ghost.

Silly me for forgetting. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 09:55:18 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>On 2024-04-10 16:30, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 11/04/2024 3:42 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>> On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:40:02 +1000, Trevor Wilson
>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/04/2024 4:41 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>>> I experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> CD.
>>>>
>>>> **In my 55 years of servicing, I've only blown up one thing: A Micronta
>>>> DMM, which I connected to a laser power supply. I should not have done
>>>> it. Clear operator failure. Everything else works just fine. Even my
>>>> first multimeter. A Sanwa U-50D my dad gave me on my 14th birthday.
>>>> Still works fine. My first DMM. A cheap 'n cheerful SOAR. Works just
>>>> fine. My first Fluke meter. A 40 year old Fluke 85. Works fine. I've had
>>>> to clean the switch a few times. Otherwise, no problems. Ditto my other
>>>> 15 or so meters. Same deal with my 'scopes.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know what your problem is. Test equipment, when treated properly
>>>> lasts a long time.
>>>
>>> To be fair, these "explosions" are typically capacitors: old, dried
>>> -out electrolytics in test gear that hasn't been used in a long time
>>> go bang when the power's switched on - as do old X2 safety caps. Those
>>> are the chief culprits IME.
>>
>> **Oh, I see. You ignore regular maintenance. That makes sense. I hope no
>> one buys a car from you.
>>
>
>Whereas all you Ozites are 100% rational reasonable polite beings who
>are always on top of everything, including predicting the exact date
>when an old cap will give up the ghost.
>
>Silly me for forgetting. ;)
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

You don't routinely replace caps in all your test gear? I'm shocked,
shocked.

(My nice little HP6212A power supply must be 50 years old. It's never
been opened and works great.)

On 2024-04-11 13:11, john larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 09:55:18 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-04-10 16:30, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 11/04/2024 3:42 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:40:02 +1000, Trevor Wilson
>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/04/2024 4:41 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>>>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>>>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>>>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>>>> I experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CD.
>>>>>
>>>>> **In my 55 years of servicing, I've only blown up one thing: A Micronta
>>>>> DMM, which I connected to a laser power supply. I should not have done
>>>>> it. Clear operator failure. Everything else works just fine. Even my
>>>>> first multimeter. A Sanwa U-50D my dad gave me on my 14th birthday.
>>>>> Still works fine. My first DMM. A cheap 'n cheerful SOAR. Works just
>>>>> fine. My first Fluke meter. A 40 year old Fluke 85. Works fine. I've had
>>>>> to clean the switch a few times. Otherwise, no problems. Ditto my other
>>>>> 15 or so meters. Same deal with my 'scopes.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know what your problem is. Test equipment, when treated properly
>>>>> lasts a long time.
>>>>
>>>> To be fair, these "explosions" are typically capacitors: old, dried
>>>> -out electrolytics in test gear that hasn't been used in a long time
>>>> go bang when the power's switched on - as do old X2 safety caps. Those
>>>> are the chief culprits IME.
>>>
>>> **Oh, I see. You ignore regular maintenance. That makes sense. I hope no
>>> one buys a car from you.
>>>
>>
>> Whereas all you Ozites are 100% rational reasonable polite beings who
>> are always on top of everything, including predicting the exact date
>> when an old cap will give up the ghost.
>>
>> Silly me for forgetting. ;)
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> You don't routinely replace caps in all your test gear? I'm shocked,
> shocked.

Sad but true. ;)
>
> (My nice little HP6212A power supply must be 50 years old. It's never
> been opened and works great.)

I have a number of the 611x supplies, including the 3 kV one. Only one
has ever actually failed--it was my previous 3 kV, whose transformer
started arcing internally, so I tossed it.

In good equipment (HP & Tek, 1985 or so on), age-related failures are
much more common on the outside of the front panel than on the inside.
(A problem not unrelated to PEBCAK.) ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On 11/04/2024 11:55 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> On 2024-04-10 16:30, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 11/04/2024 3:42 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>> On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:40:02 +1000, Trevor Wilson
>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/04/2024 4:41 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>>> I experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> CD.
>>>>
>>>> **In my 55 years of servicing, I've only blown up one thing: A Micronta
>>>> DMM, which I connected to a laser power supply. I should not have done
>>>> it. Clear operator failure. Everything else works just fine. Even my
>>>> first multimeter. A Sanwa U-50D my dad gave me on my 14th birthday.
>>>> Still works fine. My first DMM. A cheap 'n cheerful SOAR. Works just
>>>> fine. My first Fluke meter. A 40 year old Fluke 85. Works fine. I've
>>>> had
>>>> to clean the switch a few times. Otherwise, no problems. Ditto my other
>>>> 15 or so meters. Same deal with my 'scopes.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know what your problem is. Test equipment, when treated
>>>> properly
>>>> lasts a long time.
>>>
>>> To be fair, these "explosions" are typically capacitors: old, dried
>>> -out electrolytics in test gear that hasn't been used in a long time
>>> go bang when the power's switched on - as do old X2 safety caps. Those
>>> are the chief culprits IME.
>>
>> **Oh, I see. You ignore regular maintenance. That makes sense. I hope
>> no one buys a car from you.
>>
>
> Whereas all you Ozites are 100% rational reasonable polite beings who
> are always on top of everything, including predicting the exact date
> when an old cap will give up the ghost.
>
> Silly me for forgetting. ;)
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs

**The FIRST thing I do, when I acquire a new (second hand) piece of
equipment is to replace all the RIFA caps that are connected across the
mains I find. Then I carefully look for any signs of distress from
electros. After which, I experience no or few problems. Two items I
recently acquired (a Sound Technology 1000A and HP339A) were COMPLETELY
re-built with all new electros, as they are very old products. Most of
the electros measured acceptably well, but some were well below spec
(ESR). They now perform as new (better than new in the case of the
339A). OTOH, my recently acquired Panasonic VP-7721A required nothing
else but a new NiCad back-up battery. Performance was well beyond
specification. No RIFA caps either.

Here is the distortion profile of 1kHz output from the Pana:

https://ibb.co/2yqM1S4

I have no idea why the OP has so many problems with decent test
equipment, as test equipment tends to use superior quality components
when compared to domestic equipment. With the exception of RIFA caps.

And the only product that ever failed when I switched on was a second
hand Tektronix 2267B, I acquired from the Japan a few years back. It
seems that the RIFA caps in the power supply had become accustomed to
the Japanese 100VAC mains and 'chucked a wobbly' when connected to our
Aussie mains supply. Much smoke and more than a little panic from me.
Hence, I now replace ALL RIFA caps on sight.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 06:04:45 +1000, Trevor Wilson
<trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

>On 11/04/2024 11:55 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> On 2024-04-10 16:30, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 11/04/2024 3:42 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:40:02 +1000, Trevor Wilson
>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/04/2024 4:41 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>>>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>>>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>>>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>>>> I experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CD.
>>>>>
>>>>> **In my 55 years of servicing, I've only blown up one thing: A Micronta
>>>>> DMM, which I connected to a laser power supply. I should not have done
>>>>> it. Clear operator failure. Everything else works just fine. Even my
>>>>> first multimeter. A Sanwa U-50D my dad gave me on my 14th birthday.
>>>>> Still works fine. My first DMM. A cheap 'n cheerful SOAR. Works just
>>>>> fine. My first Fluke meter. A 40 year old Fluke 85. Works fine. I've
>>>>> had
>>>>> to clean the switch a few times. Otherwise, no problems. Ditto my other
>>>>> 15 or so meters. Same deal with my 'scopes.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know what your problem is. Test equipment, when treated
>>>>> properly
>>>>> lasts a long time.
>>>>
>>>> To be fair, these "explosions" are typically capacitors: old, dried
>>>> -out electrolytics in test gear that hasn't been used in a long time
>>>> go bang when the power's switched on - as do old X2 safety caps. Those
>>>> are the chief culprits IME.
>>>
>>> **Oh, I see. You ignore regular maintenance. That makes sense. I hope
>>> no one buys a car from you.
>>>
>>
>> Whereas all you Ozites are 100% rational reasonable polite beings who
>> are always on top of everything, including predicting the exact date
>> when an old cap will give up the ghost.
>>
>> Silly me for forgetting. ;)
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
>**The FIRST thing I do, when I acquire a new (second hand) piece of
>equipment is to replace all the RIFA caps that are connected across the
>mains I find. Then I carefully look for any signs of distress from
>electros. After which, I experience no or few problems. Two items I
>recently acquired (a Sound Technology 1000A and HP339A) were COMPLETELY
>re-built with all new electros, as they are very old products. Most of
>the electros measured acceptably well, but some were well below spec
>(ESR). They now perform as new (better than new in the case of the
>339A). OTOH, my recently acquired Panasonic VP-7721A required nothing
>else but a new NiCad back-up battery. Performance was well beyond
>specification. No RIFA caps either.
>
>Here is the distortion profile of 1kHz output from the Pana:
>
>https://ibb.co/2yqM1S4
>
>
>I have no idea why the OP has so many problems with decent test
>equipment, as test equipment tends to use superior quality components
>when compared to domestic equipment. With the exception of RIFA caps.
>
>And the only product that ever failed when I switched on was a second
>hand Tektronix 2267B, I acquired from the Japan a few years back. It
>seems that the RIFA caps in the power supply had become accustomed to
>the Japanese 100VAC mains and 'chucked a wobbly' when connected to our
>Aussie mains supply. Much smoke and more than a little panic from me.
>Hence, I now replace ALL RIFA caps on sight.

Ah - you're Australian. That explains a lot.

On 4/11/2024 3:42 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> On 2024-04-11 13:11, john larkin wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 09:55:18 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-04-10 16:30, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 11/04/2024 3:42 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:40:02 +1000, Trevor Wilson
>>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/04/2024 4:41 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment
>>>>>>> blow up
>>>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if
>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you
>>>>>>> switch it
>>>>>>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a
>>>>>>> lot of
>>>>>>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of
>>>>>>> explosions
>>>>>>> I experience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CD.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **In my 55 years of servicing, I've only blown up one thing: A
>>>>>> Micronta
>>>>>> DMM, which I connected to a laser power supply. I should not have
>>>>>> done
>>>>>> it. Clear operator failure. Everything else works just fine. Even my
>>>>>> first multimeter. A Sanwa U-50D my dad gave me on my 14th birthday.
>>>>>> Still works fine. My first DMM. A cheap 'n cheerful SOAR. Works just
>>>>>> fine. My first Fluke meter. A 40 year old Fluke 85. Works fine.
>>>>>> I've had
>>>>>> to clean the switch a few times. Otherwise, no problems. Ditto my
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> 15 or so meters. Same deal with my 'scopes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know what your problem is. Test equipment, when treated
>>>>>> properly
>>>>>> lasts a long time.
>>>>>
>>>>> To be fair, these "explosions" are typically capacitors: old, dried
>>>>> -out electrolytics in test gear that hasn't been used in a long time
>>>>> go bang when the power's switched on - as do old X2 safety caps. Those
>>>>> are the chief culprits IME.
>>>>
>>>> **Oh, I see. You ignore regular maintenance. That makes sense. I
>>>> hope no
>>>> one buys a car from you.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Whereas all you Ozites are 100% rational reasonable polite beings who
>>> are always on top of everything, including predicting the exact date
>>> when an old cap will give up the ghost.
>>>
>>> Silly me for forgetting. ;)
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>> You don't routinely replace caps in all your test gear? I'm shocked,
>> shocked.
>
> Sad but true. ;)

Sad, yes, but look at the bright side: at least you won't
be shocked by a charged cap you are replacing...

Ed
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>

On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 15:42:23 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>On 2024-04-11 13:11, john larkin wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 09:55:18 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-04-10 16:30, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 11/04/2024 3:42 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:40:02 +1000, Trevor Wilson
>>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/04/2024 4:41 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>>>>> not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>>>>> on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>>>>> time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>>>>> I experience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CD.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **In my 55 years of servicing, I've only blown up one thing: A Micronta
>>>>>> DMM, which I connected to a laser power supply. I should not have done
>>>>>> it. Clear operator failure. Everything else works just fine. Even my
>>>>>> first multimeter. A Sanwa U-50D my dad gave me on my 14th birthday.
>>>>>> Still works fine. My first DMM. A cheap 'n cheerful SOAR. Works just
>>>>>> fine. My first Fluke meter. A 40 year old Fluke 85. Works fine. I've had
>>>>>> to clean the switch a few times. Otherwise, no problems. Ditto my other
>>>>>> 15 or so meters. Same deal with my 'scopes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know what your problem is. Test equipment, when treated properly
>>>>>> lasts a long time.
>>>>>
>>>>> To be fair, these "explosions" are typically capacitors: old, dried
>>>>> -out electrolytics in test gear that hasn't been used in a long time
>>>>> go bang when the power's switched on - as do old X2 safety caps. Those
>>>>> are the chief culprits IME.
>>>>
>>>> **Oh, I see. You ignore regular maintenance. That makes sense. I hope no
>>>> one buys a car from you.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Whereas all you Ozites are 100% rational reasonable polite beings who
>>> are always on top of everything, including predicting the exact date
>>> when an old cap will give up the ghost.
>>>
>>> Silly me for forgetting. ;)
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>> You don't routinely replace caps in all your test gear? I'm shocked,
>> shocked.
>
>Sad but true. ;)
>>
>> (My nice little HP6212A power supply must be 50 years old. It's never
>> been opened and works great.)
>
>I have a number of the 611x supplies, including the 3 kV one. Only one
>has ever actually failed--it was my previous 3 kV, whose transformer
>started arcing internally, so I tossed it.
>
>In good equipment (HP & Tek, 1985 or so on), age-related failures are
>much more common on the outside of the front panel than on the inside.
>(A problem not unrelated to PEBCAK.) ;)
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

We've been designing a bunch of power supplies lately. There were
discussions about bandwidths and dynamics and corner cases and such,
so I scarfed up all the power supplies around here and tested them for
output capacitance, voltage step slew rate, short circuit recovery,
things like that, to sort of anticipate what customers might be used
to. The result is that power supplies are all over the place and users
can't really expect anything.

I like to use a PWM half-bridge as the output stage, because it has
good dynamics over the whole load range. But if the user connects it
to a bus or a battery or just a giant capacitive load, and programs
the voltage below what's at the teminals, it becomes a backwards boost
converter and blows up the input side caps. I suppose we should do
something about that. And maybe they will connect it to some giant bus
or battery backwards. Remote sense is another opportunity to make
smoke.

I'm doing an 8-channel non-isolated DC supply, pretty simple stuff.
But 8 half-bridges is four full bridges, so I can spin a
stepper/torque motor/solenoid/servo driver version and charge more. I
enjoy designing stepper motor drivers for some reason.

On 12/04/2024 5:42 am, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> On 2024-04-11 13:11, john larkin wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 09:55:18 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-10 16:30, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 11/04/2024 3:42 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:40:02 +1000, Trevor Wilson <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/04/2024 4:41 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if
>>>>>>> it's not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you
>>>>>>> switch it on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a
>>>>>>> lot of time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of
>>>>>>> explosion I experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **In my 55 years of servicing, I've only blown up one thing: A
>>>>>> Micronta DMM, which I connected to a laser power supply. I should not have
>>>>>> done it. Clear operator failure. Everything else works just fine. Even my
>>>>>> first multimeter. A Sanwa U-50D my dad gave me on my 14th birthday.
>>>>>> Still works fine. My first DMM. A cheap 'n cheerful SOAR. Works just
>>>>>> fine. My first Fluke meter. A 40 year old Fluke 85. Works fine. I've had
>>>>>> to clean the switch a few times. Otherwise, no problems. Ditto my
>>>>>> other 15 or so meters. Same deal with my 'scopes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know what your problem is. Test equipment, when treated
>>>>>> properly lasts a long time.
>>>>>
>>>>> To be fair, these "explosions" are typically capacitors: old, dried
>>>>> -out electrolytics in test gear that hasn't been used in a long time
>>>>> go bang when the power's switched on - as do old X2 safety caps. Those
>>>>> are the chief culprits IME.
>>>>
>>>> **Oh, I see. You ignore regular maintenance. That makes sense. I
>>>> hope no-one buys a car from you.
>>>
>>> Whereas all you Ozites are 100% rational reasonable polite beings who
>>> are always on top of everything, including predicting the exact date
>>> when an old cap will give up the ghost.

Old electrolytic capacitors tend to give up the ghost when they have
been left unpolarised for years, and are then subject to their rated
voltage without having been re-formed first.

Predicting that kind of failure isn't difficult.

>>> Silly me for forgetting. ;)

You don't have much to do with clueless newbies.

>> You don't routinely replace caps in all your test gear? I'm shocked,
>> shocked.

You don't replace them, you re-form them - day or so subject to rated
voltage applied through a nice big resistor (100k comes to mind).

> Sad but true. ;)
>
>> (My nice little HP6212A power supply must be 50 years old. It's never
>> been opened and works great.)
>
> I have a number of the 611x supplies, including the 3 kV one.  Only one
> has ever actually failed--it was my previous 3 kV, whose transformer
> started arcing internally, so I tossed it.
>
> In good equipment (HP & Tek, 1985 or so on), age-related failures are
> much more common on the outside of the front panel than on the inside.
> (A problem not unrelated to PEBCAK.) ;)

Problem Exists Between Chair and Keyboard.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 12/04/2024 3:32 pm, Bill Sloman wrote:
> On 12/04/2024 5:42 am, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> On 2024-04-11 13:11, john larkin wrote:
>>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 09:55:18 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>> On 2024-04-10 16:30, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 11/04/2024 3:42 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:40:02 +1000, Trevor Wilson
>>>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/04/2024 4:41 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment
>>>>>>>> blow up
>>>>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear;
>>>>>>>> if it's not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time
>>>>>>>> you switch it on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff,
>>>>>>>> but wastes a lot of time which could be better spent doing other
>>>>>>>> things.
>>>>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just
>>>>>>>> wondering if
>>>>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a
>>>>>>>> particular
>>>>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of
>>>>>>>> explosion I experience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **In my 55 years of servicing, I've only blown up one thing: A
>>>>>>> Micronta DMM, which I connected to a laser power supply. I should
>>>>>>> not have done it. Clear operator failure. Everything else works
>>>>>>> just fine. Even my
>>>>>>> first multimeter. A Sanwa U-50D my dad gave me on my 14th birthday.
>>>>>>> Still works fine. My first DMM. A cheap 'n cheerful SOAR. Works just
>>>>>>> fine. My first Fluke meter. A 40 year old Fluke 85. Works fine.
>>>>>>> I've had
>>>>>>> to clean the switch a few times. Otherwise, no problems. Ditto my
>>>>>>> other 15 or so meters. Same deal with my 'scopes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know what your problem is. Test equipment, when treated
>>>>>>> properly lasts a long time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To be fair, these "explosions" are typically capacitors: old, dried
>>>>>> -out electrolytics in test gear that hasn't been used in a long time
>>>>>> go bang when the power's switched on - as do old X2 safety caps.
>>>>>> Those
>>>>>> are the chief culprits IME.
>>>>>
>>>>> **Oh, I see. You ignore regular maintenance. That makes sense. I
>>>>> hope no-one buys a car from you.
>>>>
>>>> Whereas all you Ozites are 100% rational reasonable polite beings who
>>>> are always on top of everything, including predicting the exact date
>>>> when an old cap will give up the ghost.
>
> Old electrolytic capacitors tend to give up the ghost when they have
> been left unpolarised for years, and are then subject to their rated
> voltage without having been re-formed first.
>
> Predicting that kind of failure isn't difficult.
>
>>>> Silly me for forgetting. ;)
>
> You don't have much to do with clueless newbies.
>
>>> You don't routinely replace caps in all your test gear? I'm shocked,
>>> shocked.
>
> You don't replace them, you re-form them -  day or so subject to rated
> voltage applied through a nice big resistor (100k comes to mind).

**It would only be required if the unit has been out of service for
quite some time, unless it is very old of course. In any case, if I
remove a cap from equipment, it will almost always be simply replaced,
unless it is a very large and expensive component.

>
>> Sad but true. ;)
>>
>>> (My nice little HP6212A power supply must be 50 years old. It's never
>>> been opened and works great.)
>>
>> I have a number of the 611x supplies, including the 3 kV one.  Only
>> one has ever actually failed--it was my previous 3 kV, whose
>> transformer started arcing internally, so I tossed it.
>>
>> In good equipment (HP & Tek, 1985 or so on), age-related failures are
>> much more common on the outside of the front panel than on the inside.
>> (A problem not unrelated to PEBCAK.) ;)
>
> Problem Exists Between Chair and Keyboard.
>

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

On 12/04/2024 8:36 am, Dan Green wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 06:04:45 +1000, Trevor Wilson
> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>> On 11/04/2024 11:55 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-10 16:30, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 11/04/2024 3:42 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:40:02 +1000, Trevor Wilson
>>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/04/2024 4:41 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:

<snip>

>> I have no idea why the OP has so many problems with decent test
>> equipment, as test equipment tends to use superior quality components
>> when compared to domestic equipment. With the exception of RIFA caps.
>>
>> And the only product that ever failed when I switched on was a second
>> hand Tektronix 2267B, I acquired from the Japan a few years back. It
>> seems that the RIFA caps in the power supply had become accustomed to
>> the Japanese 100VAC mains and 'chucked a wobbly' when connected to our
>> Aussie mains supply. Much smoke and more than a little panic from me.
>> Hence, I now replace ALL RIFA caps on sight.
>
> Ah - you're Australian. That explains a lot.

Australian's don't suffer from not-invented here, mainly because a lot
of stuff does get invented in Australia.

Americans have a bigger problem - going back to Thomas Edison whose
famous incandescent lamp was actually invented by Sir Joseph Swan. The
Edison and Swan United Electric Light Company owned both Swan's and
Edison's patents, so nobody was fussed about which patent had come first.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 12/04/2024 3:46 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 12/04/2024 3:32 pm, Bill Sloman wrote:
>> On 12/04/2024 5:42 am, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-11 13:11, john larkin wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 09:55:18 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-04-10 16:30, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/04/2024 3:42 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:40:02 +1000, Trevor Wilson
>>>>>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/04/2024 4:41 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment
>>>>>>>>> blow up
>>>>>>>>> just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear;
>>>>>>>>> if it's not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time
>>>>>>>>> you switch it on. It makes for good practice in repairing
>>>>>>>>> stuff, but wastes a lot of time which could be better spent
>>>>>>>>> doing other things.
>>>>>>>>> I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just
>>>>>>>>> wondering if
>>>>>>>>> anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a
>>>>>>>>> particular
>>>>>>>>> piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something
>>>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>>>> particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>>>>>> perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of
>>>>>>>>> explosion I experience.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **In my 55 years of servicing, I've only blown up one thing: A
>>>>>>>> Micronta DMM, which I connected to a laser power supply. I
>>>>>>>> should not have done it. Clear operator failure. Everything else
>>>>>>>> works just fine. Even my
>>>>>>>> first multimeter. A Sanwa U-50D my dad gave me on my 14th birthday.
>>>>>>>> Still works fine. My first DMM. A cheap 'n cheerful SOAR. Works
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> fine. My first Fluke meter. A 40 year old Fluke 85. Works fine.
>>>>>>>> I've had
>>>>>>>> to clean the switch a few times. Otherwise, no problems. Ditto
>>>>>>>> my other 15 or so meters. Same deal with my 'scopes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know what your problem is. Test equipment, when treated
>>>>>>>> properly lasts a long time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To be fair, these "explosions" are typically capacitors: old, dried
>>>>>>> -out electrolytics in test gear that hasn't been used in a long time
>>>>>>> go bang when the power's switched on - as do old X2 safety caps.
>>>>>>> Those
>>>>>>> are the chief culprits IME.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **Oh, I see. You ignore regular maintenance. That makes sense. I
>>>>>> hope no-one buys a car from you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whereas all you Ozites are 100% rational reasonable polite beings who
>>>>> are always on top of everything, including predicting the exact date
>>>>> when an old cap will give up the ghost.
>>
>> Old electrolytic capacitors tend to give up the ghost when they have
>> been left unpolarised for years, and are then subject to their rated
>> voltage without having been re-formed first.
>>
>> Predicting that kind of failure isn't difficult.
>>
>>>>> Silly me for forgetting. ;)
>>
>> You don't have much to do with clueless newbies.
>>
>>>> You don't routinely replace caps in all your test gear? I'm shocked,
>>>> shocked.
>>
>> You don't replace them, you re-form them -  day or so subject to rated
>> voltage applied through a nice big resistor (100k comes to mind).
>
> **It would only be required if the unit has been out of service for
> quite some time, unless it is very old of course. In any case, if I
> remove a cap from equipment, it will almost always be simply replaced,
> unless it is a very large and expensive component.

The only time I've done it was with a "new" capacitor bought from a
cheap supplier for my home-brew hi-fi. It was a large - it not all that
expensive - component, and would have been a pest to replace.

The hi-fi worked for about thirty years. It had sat in basement for
quite a while - my wife eventually judged it too ugly for the living
room - and when it stopped working it was quicker to buy an off the
shelf replacement, and we then had the money to do that without thinking
about it. I did think about finding the fault (in the discrete input
transistors) but never got far enough to find the actual defective part
or replace it.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On a sunny day (Mon, 01 Apr 2024 09:39:59 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
<cd@notformail.com> wrote in <j6sk0j5cpqb46pt9tg6uvji35a2bstb9o8@4ax.com>:

>On Mon, 01 Apr 2024 07:01:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Mar 2024 18:41:18 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
>><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <9k7j0jlnbhs8qfg5m17pium0835meean83@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>Hi all,
>>>
>>>I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>I experience.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>CD.
>>
>>My 10 MHz Trio dual trace analog scope is from 1979 or there about, I blew up a channal once myself in the first week
>>when I accidently touched a booster diode in a TV I was repairing with it, fixed it locating the problem with the other
>>channel.
>>Later I cracked the graticule when a soldering station fell on it from the table (scope stands on the ground)
>>Made a new graticule.
>>So, and still working perfectly, OK for all things I build with micros.
>>For RF to about 1.6 GHz I use RTL_SDR USB sticks and the spectrum analyzer I wrote.
>>and for AC DC measurements I have some made in China digital meters and an analog one.
>>also a Voltcraft clamp-on meter for current when you do not - or cannot interrupt things with the meter impedance.
>>Also have a Voltcraft soldering station.
>>Blew up one of my digital meters a while back (volts on the resistance scale) but fixed it again (replaced resistor).
>>Many other test equipment I designed and build, like amplifiers LF and RF, SWR meter, radiation meters, gamma spectrometer,
>>GHz stuff for satelite, transmitters low and very high power, what not,
>>a frequency converter to use the RTL-SDR sticks and so the spectrum analyzer on higher and lower frequencies.
>>Have a SARK100 SWR analyzer too.
>>Things last forever here...
>>Scope used on a regular basis..
>>RTL-SDR stick 24/7.
>>Digital meters used every day.
>>Use my self designed lab power supply every day..
>>What more do you need?
>>Learn to use the stuff, understand what's important, and that is it
>>When I started in electronics as a kid I did not even _have_ a meter, still stuff worked.
>>Build my own scope at some point back then when I somehow got the parts
>>Not much pocket mony as a kid.
>>UNDERSTAND your systems, what electrons do.
>>Showing of with boat anchors may impress people, especially the clueless...
>>But it does not help you one bit.
>>Anything with an accuracy better than 1 percent in most cases is just like apes screaming load trying to impress other apes.
>>
>
>I don't think any of us here truly understand what electrons do, Jan!
>Boat anchors don't impress anyone nowadays; they're more likely to
>make one look like some sort of oddball mad scientist who couldn't get
>laid. ;-)
>I'm guessing you don't have a TV. Would I be right?

I learned the basics of how electrons behave and move as a small kid from this book:
https://www.boekenwebsite.nl/techniek/zowerkt-de-radio
'That is how radio works'
He also wrote
that is how TV works
and
That is how the transistor works.
I remember walking the streets of Amsterdam looking for usable parts for my own TV in primary school
Tried to make an OLED TV too.

In high-school were I build an tube amplifier for the school band
I got an old tube CRT from a TV shop.
Made an HV generator using a car ignition coil on the output of an old EL84 audio amp,
made that amp oscillate by feeding back some output to the input.
The output of the ignition coil rectified by an old TV HV diode
Horizontal deflection coils on same amp
Vertical defection coils on an other audio amp.
That was my first scope.
Not very high frequency..
Had a transistor FM transmitter of my own design working too,
we had a radio program!
As to understand electrons START THERE
That is what it is all about.
That is how I started as a kid, books from Van Aisberg
Later when studying electronics I got some old tube TV, and gradually replaced each part with transistors
rewound horizontal output transformer, build a new tuner.
By that time Elector magazine published the 'teletor'
https://archive.org/details/elektuur-36-1965-11_20200524
used some ideas from that and had my first transistor TV, mine was MUCH bigger had a real CRT.
In 1968 designed my own TV vidicon camara, left my current design job and started in broadcasting, hired on the spot,
6 month payed training in the school banks all about broadcasting all about television
Many years nothing but film, TV and audio, video recording, satellite, slow motion, video editing, running a TV studio, what not
So, you could f*cking learn a bit
Yes I have a nice Samsung TV and a portable one too.
I can build one from scrap in no time, but the digital decoders these days need a chip
but I can code that too.
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

I like to open source things, worked in all sort of science fields electronics is used for,
from medical to space to army to navy to broadcasting, been there done it
Electrons try to understand, math is just about quantities and breaks down anyways as mamaticians will do a divide by zero
and claim a new reality.
EInsteinianism is brain dead.
hehe

PS I had a TV repair shop in Amsterdam for many years (see it is also going to ..repair)

..

On a sunny day (Mon, 01 Apr 2024 09:39:59 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
<cd@notformail.com> wrote in <j6sk0j5cpqb46pt9tg6uvji35a2bstb9o8@4ax.com>:

>On Mon, 01 Apr 2024 07:01:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Mar 2024 18:41:18 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
>><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <9k7j0jlnbhs8qfg5m17pium0835meean83@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>Hi all,
>>>
>>>I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>I experience.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>CD.
>>
>>My 10 MHz Trio dual trace analog scope is from 1979 or there about, I blew up a channal once myself in the first week
>>when I accidently touched a booster diode in a TV I was repairing with it, fixed it locating the problem with the other
>>channel.
>>Later I cracked the graticule when a soldering station fell on it from the table (scope stands on the ground)
>>Made a new graticule.
>>So, and still working perfectly, OK for all things I build with micros.
>>For RF to about 1.6 GHz I use RTL_SDR USB sticks and the spectrum analyzer I wrote.
>>and for AC DC measurements I have some made in China digital meters and an analog one.
>>also a Voltcraft clamp-on meter for current when you do not - or cannot interrupt things with the meter impedance.
>>Also have a Voltcraft soldering station.
>>Blew up one of my digital meters a while back (volts on the resistance scale) but fixed it again (replaced resistor).
>>Many other test equipment I designed and build, like amplifiers LF and RF, SWR meter, radiation meters, gamma spectrometer,
>>GHz stuff for satelite, transmitters low and very high power, what not,
>>a frequency converter to use the RTL-SDR sticks and so the spectrum analyzer on higher and lower frequencies.
>>Have a SARK100 SWR analyzer too.
>>Things last forever here...
>>Scope used on a regular basis..
>>RTL-SDR stick 24/7.
>>Digital meters used every day.
>>Use my self designed lab power supply every day..
>>What more do you need?
>>Learn to use the stuff, understand what's important, and that is it
>>When I started in electronics as a kid I did not even _have_ a meter, still stuff worked.
>>Build my own scope at some point back then when I somehow got the parts
>>Not much pocket mony as a kid.
>>UNDERSTAND your systems, what electrons do.
>>Showing of with boat anchors may impress people, especially the clueless...
>>But it does not help you one bit.
>>Anything with an accuracy better than 1 percent in most cases is just like apes screaming load trying to impress other apes.
>>
>
>I don't think any of us here truly understand what electrons do, Jan!
>Boat anchors don't impress anyone nowadays; they're more likely to
>make one look like some sort of oddball mad scientist who couldn't get
>laid. ;-)
>I'm guessing you don't have a TV. Would I be right?

I learned the basics of how electrons behave and move as a small kid from this book:
https://www.boekenwebsite.nl/techniek/zowerkt-de-radio
'That is how radio works'
He also wrote
that is how TV works
and
That is how the transistor works.
I remember walking the streets of Amsterdam looking for usable parts for my own TV in primary school
Tried to make an OLED TV too.

In high-school were I build an tube amplifier for the school band
I got an old tube CRT from a TV shop.
Made an HV generator using a car ignition coil on the output of an old EL84 audio amp,
made that amp oscillate by feeding back some output to the input.
The output of the ignition coil rectified by an old TV HV diode
Horizontal deflection coils on same amp
Vertical defection coils on an other audio amp.
That was my first scope.
Not very high frequency..
Had a transistor FM transmitter of my own design working too,
we had a radio program!
As to understand electrons START THERE
That is what it is all about.
That is how I started as a kid, books from Van Aisberg
Later when studying electronics I got some old tube TV, and gradually replaced each part with transistors
rewound horizontal output transformer, build a new tuner.
By that time Elector magazine published the 'teletor'
https://archive.org/details/elektuur-36-1965-11_20200524
used some ideas from that and had my first transistor TV, mine was MUCH bigger had a real CRT.
In 1968 designed my own TV vidicon camara, left my current design job and started in broadcasting, hired on the spot,
6 month payed training in the school banks all about broadcasting all about television
Many years nothing but film, TV and audio, video recording, satellite, slow motion, video editing, running a TV studio, what not
So, you could f*cking learn a bit
Yes I have a nice Samsung TV and a portable one too.
I can build one from scrap in no time, but the digital decoders these days need a chip
but I can code that too.
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

I like to open source things, worked in all sort of science fields electronics is used for,
from medical to space to army to navy to broadcasting, been there done it
Electrons try to understand, math is just about quantities and breaks down anyways as mamaticians will do a divide by zero
and claim a new reality.
EInsteinianism is brain dead.
hehe

PS I had a TV repair shop in Amsterdam for many years (see it is also going to ..repair)

..

On Thu, 02 May 2024 07:59:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

>On a sunny day (Mon, 01 Apr 2024 09:39:59 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <j6sk0j5cpqb46pt9tg6uvji35a2bstb9o8@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Mon, 01 Apr 2024 07:01:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Mar 2024 18:41:18 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
>>><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <9k7j0jlnbhs8qfg5m17pium0835meean83@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>I'm starting to get a bit fed up with having my test equipment blow up
>>>>just when it's needed. This is the drawback with vintage gear; if it's
>>>>not used frequently then it can go *bang* the next time you switch it
>>>>on. It makes for good practice in repairing stuff, but wastes a lot of
>>>>time which could be better spent doing other things.
>>>>I think it's time I modernised my test gear. I was just wondering if
>>>>anyone has any recommendations they can share. Is there a particular
>>>>piece of test equipment you couldn't live without? Something you're
>>>>particularly impressed with? I'd be interested to know so I can
>>>>perhaps acquire said item and thereby reduce the number of explosions
>>>>I experience.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>CD.
>>>
>>>My 10 MHz Trio dual trace analog scope is from 1979 or there about, I blew up a channal once myself in the first week
>>>when I accidently touched a booster diode in a TV I was repairing with it, fixed it locating the problem with the other
>>>channel.
>>>Later I cracked the graticule when a soldering station fell on it from the table (scope stands on the ground)
>>>Made a new graticule.
>>>So, and still working perfectly, OK for all things I build with micros.
>>>For RF to about 1.6 GHz I use RTL_SDR USB sticks and the spectrum analyzer I wrote.
>>>and for AC DC measurements I have some made in China digital meters and an analog one.
>>>also a Voltcraft clamp-on meter for current when you do not - or cannot interrupt things with the meter impedance.
>>>Also have a Voltcraft soldering station.
>>>Blew up one of my digital meters a while back (volts on the resistance scale) but fixed it again (replaced resistor).
>>>Many other test equipment I designed and build, like amplifiers LF and RF, SWR meter, radiation meters, gamma spectrometer,
>>>GHz stuff for satelite, transmitters low and very high power, what not,
>>>a frequency converter to use the RTL-SDR sticks and so the spectrum analyzer on higher and lower frequencies.
>>>Have a SARK100 SWR analyzer too.
>>>Things last forever here...
>>>Scope used on a regular basis..
>>>RTL-SDR stick 24/7.
>>>Digital meters used every day.
>>>Use my self designed lab power supply every day..
>>>What more do you need?
>>>Learn to use the stuff, understand what's important, and that is it
>>>When I started in electronics as a kid I did not even _have_ a meter, still stuff worked.
>>>Build my own scope at some point back then when I somehow got the parts
>>>Not much pocket mony as a kid.
>>>UNDERSTAND your systems, what electrons do.
>>>Showing of with boat anchors may impress people, especially the clueless...
>>>But it does not help you one bit.
>>>Anything with an accuracy better than 1 percent in most cases is just like apes screaming load trying to impress other apes.
>>>
>>
>>I don't think any of us here truly understand what electrons do, Jan!
>>Boat anchors don't impress anyone nowadays; they're more likely to
>>make one look like some sort of oddball mad scientist who couldn't get
>>laid. ;-)
>>I'm guessing you don't have a TV. Would I be right?
>
>I learned the basics of how electrons behave and move as a small kid from this book:
> https://www.boekenwebsite.nl/techniek/zowerkt-de-radio
> 'That is how radio works'
>He also wrote
> that is how TV works
>and
> That is how the transistor works.
>I remember walking the streets of Amsterdam looking for usable parts for my own TV in primary school
>Tried to make an OLED TV too.
>
>In high-school were I build an tube amplifier for the school band
>I got an old tube CRT from a TV shop.
>Made an HV generator using a car ignition coil on the output of an old EL84 audio amp,
>made that amp oscillate by feeding back some output to the input.
>The output of the ignition coil rectified by an old TV HV diode
>Horizontal deflection coils on same amp
>Vertical defection coils on an other audio amp.
>That was my first scope.
>Not very high frequency..
>Had a transistor FM transmitter of my own design working too,
>we had a radio program!
>As to understand electrons START THERE
>That is what it is all about.
>That is how I started as a kid, books from Van Aisberg
>Later when studying electronics I got some old tube TV, and gradually replaced each part with transistors
>rewound horizontal output transformer, build a new tuner.
>By that time Elector magazine published the 'teletor'
> https://archive.org/details/elektuur-36-1965-11_20200524
> used some ideas from that and had my first transistor TV, mine was MUCH bigger had a real CRT.
>In 1968 designed my own TV vidicon camara, left my current design job and started in broadcasting, hired on the spot,
>6 month payed training in the school banks all about broadcasting all about television
>Many years nothing but film, TV and audio, video recording, satellite, slow motion, video editing, running a TV studio, what not
>So, you could f*cking learn a bit
>Yes I have a nice Samsung TV and a portable one too.
>I can build one from scrap in no time, but the digital decoders these days need a chip
>but I can code that too.
> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html
> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>
>I like to open source things, worked in all sort of science fields electronics is used for,
>from medical to space to army to navy to broadcasting, been there done it
>Electrons try to understand, math is just about quantities and breaks down anyways as mamaticians will do a divide by zero
>and claim a new reality.
>EInsteinianism is brain dead.
>hehe
>
>PS I had a TV repair shop in Amsterdam for many years (see it is also going to ..repair)
>
>.

There was a cool book, "A Boy And A Battery"