Interesting gizmo for probing circuit boards. Looks a bit clunky for
what I used to do but would be nice it you did a lot of the same board
repairs :)

https://hackaday.com/2023/08/11/hackaday-prize-2023-circuit-scout-lends-a-hand-or-two-for-troubleshooting/

==Troubleshooting a circuit is easy, right? All you need is a couple of
hands to hold the probes, another hand to twiddle the knobs, a pair of
eyes to look at the schematic, another pair to look at the circuit
board, and, for fancy work, X-ray vision to see through the board so
you know what pads to probe. It’s child’s play!

In the real world, most of us don’t have all the extra parts needed to
do the job right, which is where something like CircuitScout would come
in mighty handy. [Fangzheng Liu] and [Thomas Juldo]’s design is a
little like a small pick-and-place machine, except that instead of
placing components, the dual gantries place probes on whatever test
points you need to look at. The stepper-controlled gantries move
independently over a fixture to hold the PCB in a known position so
that the servo-controlled Z-axes can drive the probes down to the right
place on the board...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:ub85c7$1bij9$1@dont-email.me...

Interesting gizmo for probing circuit boards. Looks a bit clunky for
what I used to do but would be nice it you did a lot of the same board
repairs :)

https://hackaday.com/2023/08/11/hackaday-prize-2023-circuit-scout-lends-a-hand-or-two-for-troubleshooting/

===
Troubleshooting a circuit is easy, right? All you need is a couple of
hands to hold the probes, another hand to twiddle the knobs, a pair of
eyes to look at the schematic, another pair to look at the circuit
board, and, for fancy work, X-ray vision to see through the board so
you know what pads to probe. It’s child’s play!

In the real world, most of us don’t have all the extra parts needed to
do the job right, which is where something like CircuitScout would come
in mighty handy. [Fangzheng Liu] and [Thomas Juldo]’s design is a
little like a small pick-and-place machine, except that instead of
placing components, the dual gantries place probes on whatever test
points you need to look at. The stepper-controlled gantries move
independently over a fixture to hold the PCB in a known position so
that the servo-controlled Z-axes can drive the probes down to the right
place on the board...

Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

------------------------
That's an interesting idea that might help a less experienced tech
troubleshoot a fault, but I think it would be too slow for most production
line testing compared to other alternatives. For surface mount a fairly
common fault was a failed or intermittent solder connection and the pressure
of the probe might temporarily cure the problem, masking rather than
revealing it, while a more experienced tech might recognize the visual or
tactile clues to a bad joint while probing it. Since about half of all field
returns test OK (operator error or dirty contact) it could be sent back with
a hidden fault waiting to reoccur. Much of the time I found problems by
visual inspection or dragging a needle probe over IC pins and listening for
a change in the twang pitch when the needle struck an unsoldered pin.
Another hint is the way a ceiling light reflects off the solder as you move
the board or your head. A good joint should show a continuous reflection
from the curved fillet, a bad joint may have a break in it.

When I was a tech at Unitrode they had wafer probers to do that on bare ICs
before they were cut from the silicon wafer, or if packaged without a lid.
Several probes were needed, at least two for powering the chip and others
for applying control levels to inputs, injecting a signal and observing the
output. Usually the probe went on the bonding wire pads but the silicon
nitride protective coating could be burned through with a laser to reach the
metallization underneath.
https://www.waferworld.com/post/what-is-a-wafer-prober

Automated test equipment goes a step further with a probe card having a
probe pin for each bonding pad on the device. The pins are small enough to
probe all of the adjacent pins on a data or address bus, and can test a
memory chip while it is still on the wafer. Bad ones are marked with a dot
of ink. Wafers with too many ink dots went into the scrap bin and many
subsequently became wall art.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probe_card

For assembled boards there are several approaches that trade initial fixture
cost for testing speed, depending on the production volume. An example is a
"bed-of-nails" fixture with spring-loaded Pogo pins under or above test
point pads placed by the board designer. They also can check the bare board
for shorts or opens before assembly. When possible a circuit can be designed
for "Boundary Scan" testing using only a simple added connector.

I could hold one or two scope probes steady on a tiny part. Usually for a
prototype that the design engineer would test I extended the component pads
a little to give room to solder on a fine wire to clip the probe to, plus a
nearby ground to avoid distortion of high speed signals.

A potential problem with it is requiring the schematic and circuit board
database to be in or convertible to a format it can use. The "PADS" layout
system I used outputted Gerber photoplotter files, or a DXF file that
nothing else could read. Although PADS included schematic capture I've seen
and used only the more sophisticated Viewlogic for schematic design and
simulation. The two were not completely compatible and sometimes needed
manual file tweaking that was beyond the skill set of the usual board layout
person. For example although it had been contracted out I had to do part of
the board design for the geometrically complex Segway Balance Sensor
Assembly.

On 8/12/2023 7:35 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> Interesting gizmo for probing circuit boards. Looks a bit clunky for
> what I used to do but would be nice it you did a lot of the same board
> repairs :)
>
> https://hackaday.com/2023/08/11/hackaday-prize-2023-circuit-scout-lends-a-hand-or-two-for-troubleshooting/
>
> ===
> Troubleshooting a circuit is easy, right? All you need is a couple of
> hands to hold the probes, another hand to twiddle the knobs, a pair of
> eyes to look at the schematic, another pair to look at the circuit
> board, and, for fancy work, X-ray vision to see through the board so
> you know what pads to probe. It’s child’s play!
>
> In the real world, most of us don’t have all the extra parts needed to
> do the job right, which is where something like CircuitScout would come
> in mighty handy. [Fangzheng Liu] and [Thomas Juldo]’s design is a
> little like a small pick-and-place machine, except that instead of
> placing components, the dual gantries place probes on whatever test
> points you need to look at. The stepper-controlled gantries move
> independently over a fixture to hold the PCB in a known position so
> that the servo-controlled Z-axes can drive the probes down to the right
> place on the board...
>

I'm sorry you have the wrong number.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 13:42:35 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
>I could hold one or two scope probes steady on a tiny part. Usually for a
>prototype that the design engineer would test I extended the component pads
>a little to give room to solder on a fine wire to clip the probe to, plus a
>nearby ground to avoid distortion of high speed signals.

Used to do similar. We replaced the scope probe tip with a short piece
of sharpened antenna rod. Big help for keeping it from slipping off.
Also did the same soldering bits of wire here and there to clip onto.
Circuit speed wasn't a big issue when I was doing CRT Terminal repair.
Like ADDS, TeleVideo, Wyse and even a few Heathkits back in the early
1980's. We didn't really have a jigs or prober type stuff. Needed whole
units to power up assemblies/boards.

I had a couple loupes, hand magnifiers, hand-help "microscope" and
different light sources. I'm really near sighted which was helpful for
inspecting boards for suspicious solder joints and such.

You were on a whole nother level than me with just a couple years
electronic tech school training...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On 8/12/2023 11:28 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 13:42:35 -0400
> "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> I could hold one or two scope probes steady on a tiny part. Usually for a
>> prototype that the design engineer would test I extended the component pads
>> a little to give room to solder on a fine wire to clip the probe to, plus a
>> nearby ground to avoid distortion of high speed signals.
>
> Used to do similar. We replaced the scope probe tip with a short piece
> of sharpened antenna rod. Big help for keeping it from slipping off.
> Also did the same soldering bits of wire here and there to clip onto.
> Circuit speed wasn't a big issue when I was doing CRT Terminal repair.
> Like ADDS, TeleVideo, Wyse and even a few Heathkits back in the early
> 1980's. We didn't really have a jigs or prober type stuff. Needed whole
> units to power up assemblies/boards.
>
> I had a couple loupes, hand magnifiers, hand-help "microscope" and
> different light sources. I'm really near sighted which was helpful for
> inspecting boards for suspicious solder joints and such.
>
> You were on a whole nother level than me with just a couple years
> electronic tech school training...
>

Oh, it was a group page.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:ub8j0l$1equv$1@dont-email.me...
....
Circuit speed wasn't a big issue when I was doing CRT Terminal repair.
....
You were on a whole nother level than me with just a couple years
electronic tech school training...

-----------------

I was handed a problem the Ph.Ds in another department couldn't solve,
involving data corruption in 74AS logic. I requested the inner plane
artworks and immediately saw that it had low speed single point grounding in
the center, like a squashed starfish. The data bus that was failing crossed
between arms of the ground plane about 3" from the junction. On a hunch I
put a probe tip on the ground on one side and probe ground on the ground
plane on the other, and triggered on the data. Sure enough, the scope
captured a 3V ground bounce spike between the sending and receiving devices
during the nanosecond data transition. Hey guys, you don't have to take a
lab tech's word, the scope demo shows your problem.

Episodes like that probably made resentful enemies but I was given more and
more design responsibility comparable to the degreed engineers.

At another company I had learned to consider the power and ground paths as a
transmission line that becomes an integral part of the signal path instead
of as infinite sources and sinks. At the time 50MHz was high speed, the
lessons were still valid later above 1GHz. That company applied single point
grounding correctly, with separate grounds for analog, digital and precision
measurement, and designers had to account for and minimize the signal return
current through the common junction, to a few milliAmps for the measurement
circuits, in a machine with perhaps 100A of 5V TTL logic power. Even the
+/-15V op amp supplies were over 20A, yet it could accurately measure
microVolts and picoAmps. I mention this to share it.

The Army school was supposed to teach how to undetectably repair a board
coated with Humiseal, but the instructor couldn't teach what he didn't know,
so I actually had less than an hour of hands-on soldering training and
learned most of it on the job by trial and error, as components and traces
became smaller and smaller. Pulling the solder through folded paper to wipe
it clean of oxide is a considerable help.

That was in the hands-on repair class where they would disable a machine by
installing an open dummy fuse, to teach us to check them with a meter. They
had heated and removed fuse end caps to insert a label "good fuse" or blue
(blew) paper or heavy but too short bus wire. I caught on quickly, then
stood with the instructor watching others remove, examine and reinstall the
fuses and continue troubleshooting. The overall graduation rate for that 40
week course was under 5%. Those who failed could try other MOS schools.

jsw

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:ub8q6o$1ftsf$1@dont-email.me...

Oh, it was a group page.
Bob La Londe

-------------------------

It might possibly be a group interest. Everyone breaks stuff.

I just fixed an electrical fault in an immobile mobility scooter I bought
for $100 at a flea market. Hopefully having one means I won't need it, cheap
insurance. If my knee goes out again I have it on hand. At my age I may loan
it to friends or family while they wait for Medicare.

On 8/12/2023 5:06 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:ub8q6o$1ftsf$1@dont-email.me...
>
> Oh, it was a group page.
> Bob La Londe
>
> -------------------------
>
> It might possibly be a group interest. Everyone breaks stuff.
>
> I just fixed an electrical fault in an immobile mobility scooter I
> bought for $100 at a flea market. Hopefully having one means I won't
> need it, cheap insurance. If my knee goes out again I have it on hand.
> At my age I may loan it to friends or family while they wait for Medicare.
>

My wife has been making noise about wanting an electric mobility scooter
for large events she still goes to. BlizzCon, Cochella Music Festival,
etc. The problem is she wants something that folds up to fit in the
back of her Veloster Turbo and can be lifted in and out with some sort
of crane.

I once questioned her ability to load a weeks worth of camping gear and
supplies in a Miata, so I'm not saying its impossible. Just not easy.

If I went to these events it might be easier. I could muscle the the
thing around a little bit as needed, but that is no longer medically
allowed for her. She may have the strength, but it could aggravate or
damage surgical repairs.

The problem with me going is that I actively dislike video games that
suck huge portions out of a person's life, and I am ambivalent about
most modern music. I am quite happy to not play mega massive multi
player online games ever or have them waste any of my life, and I'm more
than happy to catch a modern band or performer's one or two truly
inspired songs on the radio where I don't have to sit through the 20
pieces of garbage they wrote so they could fill an album. I certainly
don't want to waste a week on either of those things.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 10:10:29 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>
>If I went to these events it might be easier. I could muscle the the
>thing around a little bit as needed, but that is no longer medically
>allowed for her. She may have the strength, but it could aggravate or
>damage surgical repairs.

Maybe look into getting a hitch for it. Seems they make some. Not sure
if it would be heavy duty enough...

https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Hitch/Hyundai/Veloster/2012/C11254.html?vehicleid=2012308195

Then you might be able to add a hitch hauler that just tips or has a
ramp to load it...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:ubb2q8$1tdhq$1@dont-email.me...

My wife has been making noise about wanting an electric mobility scooter
for large events she still goes to. BlizzCon, Cochella Music Festival,
etc. The problem is she wants something that folds up to fit in the
back of her Veloster Turbo and can be lifted in and out with some sort
of crane.

I once questioned her ability to load a weeks worth of camping gear and
supplies in a Miata, so I'm not saying its impossible. Just not easy.

If I went to these events it might be easier. I could muscle the the
thing around a little bit as needed, but that is no longer medically
allowed for her. She may have the strength, but it could aggravate or
damage surgical repairs.

-------------------

https://www.bruno.com/scooter-lifts
They need solid frame members to attach the base to, that will support the
cantilevered load. Like everything that may be chargeable to Medicare they
ain't cheap. I originally bought the CRV to carry mobility equipment plus
vacation luggage for the folks. It could never be mistaken for a sports car.
Maybe a delivery van.

The ~20 year old scooter I bought weighs 98# assembled but breaks down into
~30# or less pieces, the heaviest being the AGM battery pack and the rear
drive assembly which both have good top handles. You have to be able to bend
low or squat or kneel to disassemble or reassemble it. I couldn't find a
lighter Lithium battery in the 12V, 12Ah form factor it takes that would
supply more than a third of its amperage rating.

When I worked for the medical supplier I had to unload them from trucks
without so much as a ramp to slide them down and some weighted 125#, enough
to cripple me so I'd need one myself.

https://www.forbes.com/health/healthy-aging/best-lightweight-mobility-scooters/

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 16:29:48 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
>When I worked for the medical supplier I had to unload them from trucks
>without so much as a ramp to slide them down and some weighted 125#, enough
>to cripple me so I'd need one myself.

I don't try to show up the young whipper-snappers anymore and let them
have at it if they offer to help nowadays😉

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On 8/13/2023 1:29 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:ubb2q8$1tdhq$1@dont-email.me...
>
> My wife has been making noise about wanting an electric mobility scooter
> for large events she still goes to. BlizzCon, Cochella Music Festival,
> etc.  The problem is she wants something that folds up to fit in the
> back of her Veloster Turbo and can be lifted in and out with some sort
> of crane.
>
> I once questioned her ability to load a weeks worth of camping gear and
> supplies in a Miata, so I'm not saying its impossible.  Just not easy.
>
> If I went to these events it might be easier.  I could muscle the the
> thing around a little bit as needed, but that is no longer medically
> allowed for her.  She may have the strength, but it could aggravate or
> damage surgical repairs.
>
> -------------------
>
> https://www.bruno.com/scooter-lifts
> They need solid frame members to attach the base to, that will support
> the cantilevered load. Like everything that may be chargeable to
> Medicare they ain't cheap. I originally bought the CRV to carry mobility
> equipment plus vacation luggage for the folks. It could never be
> mistaken for a sports car. Maybe a delivery van.
>
> The ~20 year old scooter I bought weighs 98# assembled but breaks down
> into ~30# or less pieces, the heaviest being the AGM battery pack and
> the rear drive assembly which both have good top handles. You have to be
> able to bend low or squat or kneel to disassemble or reassemble it. I
> couldn't find a lighter Lithium battery in the 12V, 12Ah form factor it
> takes that would supply more than a third of its amperage rating.
>
> When I worked for the medical supplier I had to unload them from trucks
> without so much as a ramp to slide them down and some weighted 125#,
> enough to cripple me so I'd need one myself.
>
> https://www.forbes.com/health/healthy-aging/best-lightweight-mobility-scooters/
>

For the compact foldable ones I had an idea for a frame that sets inside
the car. Lift straight up. Pin to trolley on rail. Slide out on
extendable rail. Minimal pulling effort on cart or extend with gas
spring. Lower straight down. Unfold. Can be operated with an electric
cable winch. Could possibly be locked in place with vertical jack
members, bolted through cargo area bed, or tied into cargo loops
depending on specific application. Light weight foldable carts only,
but that is what she wants.

I had a buddy who sold and serviced electric mobility carts for a while.
I've still got a couple fairly powerful DC motor around here he gave
me from scrap carts. He did all his sales and service out of a mid size
van.

He had one cart that was really an adult size electric bicycle/trike he
used with a bicycle trailer for hauling stuff at swap meets and fairs.
I think it was way to fast to be "legally" an electric mobility device,
but he got away with it.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:ubbhkn$1ucu6$2@dont-email.me...

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 16:29:48 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
>When I worked for the medical supplier I had to unload them from trucks
>without so much as a ramp to slide them down and some weighted 125#, enough
>to cripple me so I'd need one myself.

I don't try to show up the young whipper-snappers anymore and let them
have at it if they offer to help nowadays😉

Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

---------------------------
As the new guy I was specifically assigned the task. I talked Segway into
buying me a platform stacker for similar heavy lifts, which had injured the
tech I was substituting for. I had convinced the medical supply company to
buy a hydraulic scissors table instead of crawling on the floor to work on
scooters but it didn't lift near enough to loading dock height and was a
tipping hazard itself if something fell on it near the edge.

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:ubbj29$1vcr5$1@dont-email.me...

For the compact foldable ones I had an idea for a frame that sets inside
the car. Lift straight up. Pin to trolley on rail. Slide out on
extendable rail. Minimal pulling effort on cart or extend with gas
spring. Lower straight down. Unfold. Can be operated with an electric
cable winch. Could possibly be locked in place with vertical jack
members, bolted through cargo area bed, or tied into cargo loops
depending on specific application. Light weight foldable carts only,
but that is what she wants.

I had a buddy who sold and serviced electric mobility carts for a while.
I've still got a couple fairly powerful DC motor around here he gave
me from scrap carts. He did all his sales and service out of a mid size
van.

He had one cart that was really an adult size electric bicycle/trike he
used with a bicycle trailer for hauling stuff at swap meets and fairs.
I think it was way to fast to be "legally" an electric mobility device,
but he got away with it.
Bob La Londe

------------------------------

Good idea, I've considered something similar on wheels to hoist new shingles
up to the roof. The problem may be finding stock for the extensible trolley
rail, and a trolley with wheels that fit it. On one storage shed I bolt the
temporary outdoor extension to a fixed inside track and place an adjustable
support under the outer end. I had to modify a trolley to use back-to-back
C channel for the rail and made a trolley from scratch to bolt to an HF
1300# electric winch. The HF trolley's wheels are too large for 3" C channel
unless turned down. You don't want the trolley or extension moving on its
own when the vehicle's rear sags as the load moves outward.

An advantage of two C channels over a solid track is that it can be
suspended or spliced with a plate or rectangular tube between the halves,
without blocking the trolley.

I've built a number of hoists and my favorite for loading into a vehicle is
a pickup bed crane.
https://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-capacity-pickup-truck-bed-crane-with-hand-winch-61522.html?utm_source=google
I've used it to winch logs to the trail and lift them onto a sawbuck to cut
to firewood length.

I bought the low profile one and made an extension mast for taller bulky
items like my TIG welder. The base isn't seriously in the way when not in
use. They are heavy but simple enough to fabricate for smaller loads from
lighter stock, or aluminum if you can weld or even bolt it together.

The boat winch pins to the boom and can be moved to my truck's front ladder
rack to winch small vehicles like a riding mower up ramps. A scooter would
be easy to disassemble at the top of ramps, a minimalist solution that
requires only folding ramps and a small winch with added mount or eye bolt.
Swinging a crane load in risks damaging the car, especially if it isn't
parked dead level.

I would suggest this temporarily while you are finding and installing a
small electric winch, though the brake on mine has become sticky and jams,
possibly from overloading it.
https://www.harborfreight.com/1-4-quarter-ton-lever-chain-hoist-67144.html

The one incomplete discarded Bruno hoist I have uses a web strap instead of
a cable.

Today at the flea market I bought a folding box collapsible hand truck for
$5 and was towing it around with the scooter like a trailer. One of the
locking clips was missing, I think I can bend a replacement from stiff wire.

A hoist geometry that's worked well for me is an A frame on pivots or ball
joints at the bottom. It picks up the load on one side, swings and lifts it
over the center and lowers it on the other. If the load isn't too heavy a
strut stop inside and restraining rope for the outside might be enough. For
a scooter the frame might be rectangular for clearance, an A works fine for
logs. The lever chain hoist hanging from the top simply lifts straight up
and lowers straight down.

On 8/13/2023 4:58 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:ubbj29$1vcr5$1@dont-email.me...
>
> For the compact foldable ones I had an idea for a frame that sets inside
> the car.  Lift straight up.  Pin to trolley on rail.  Slide out on
> extendable rail.  Minimal pulling effort on cart or extend with gas
> spring.  Lower straight down.  Unfold.  Can be operated with an electric
> cable winch.   Could possibly be locked in place with vertical jack
> members, bolted through cargo area bed, or tied into cargo loops
> depending on specific application.  Light weight foldable carts only,
> but that is what she wants.
>
> I had a buddy who sold and serviced electric mobility carts for a while.
>  I've still got a couple fairly powerful DC motor around here he gave
> me from scrap carts.  He did all his sales and service out of a mid size
> van.
>
> He had one cart that was really an adult size electric bicycle/trike he
> used with a bicycle trailer for hauling stuff at swap meets and fairs.
> I think it was way to fast to be "legally" an electric mobility device,
> but he got away with it.
> Bob La Londe
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Good idea, I've considered something similar on wheels to hoist new
> shingles up to the roof. The problem may be finding stock for the
> extensible trolley rail, and a trolley with wheels that fit it. On one
> storage shed I bolt the temporary outdoor extension to a fixed inside
> track and place an adjustable support under the outer end.  I had to
> modify a trolley to use back-to-back C channel for the rail and made a
> trolley from scratch to bolt to an HF 1300# electric winch. The HF
> trolley's wheels are too large for 3" C channel unless turned down. You
> don't want the trolley or extension moving on its own when the vehicle's
> rear sags as the load moves outward.
>
> An advantage of two C channels over a solid track is that it can be
> suspended or spliced with a plate or rectangular tube between the
> halves, without blocking the trolley.
>
> I've built a number of hoists and my favorite for loading into a vehicle
> is a pickup bed crane.
> https://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-capacity-pickup-truck-bed-crane-with-hand-winch-61522.html?utm_source=google
> I've used it to winch logs to the trail and lift them onto a sawbuck to
> cut to firewood length.
>
> I bought the low profile one and made an extension mast for taller bulky
> items like my TIG welder. The base isn't seriously in the way when not
> in use. They are heavy but simple enough to fabricate for smaller loads
> from lighter stock, or aluminum if you can weld or even bolt it together.
>
> The boat winch pins to the boom and can be moved to my truck's front
> ladder rack to winch small vehicles like a riding mower up ramps. A
> scooter would be easy to disassemble at the top of ramps, a minimalist
> solution that requires only folding ramps and a small winch with added
> mount or eye bolt. Swinging a crane load in risks damaging the car,
> especially if it isn't parked dead level.
>
> I would suggest this temporarily while you are finding and installing a
> small electric winch, though the brake on mine has become sticky and
> jams, possibly from overloading it.
> https://www.harborfreight.com/1-4-quarter-ton-lever-chain-hoist-67144.html
>
> The one incomplete discarded Bruno hoist I have uses a web strap instead
> of a cable.
>
> Today at the flea market I bought a folding box collapsible hand truck
> for $5 and was towing it around with the scooter like a trailer. One of
> the locking clips was missing, I think I can bend a replacement from
> stiff wire.
>
> A hoist geometry that's worked well for me is an A frame on pivots or
> ball joints at the bottom. It picks up the load on one side, swings and
> lifts it over the center and lowers it on the other. If the load isn't
> too heavy a strut stop inside and restraining rope for the outside might
> be enough. For a scooter the frame might be rectangular for clearance,
> an A works fine for logs. The lever chain hoist hanging from the top
> simply lifts straight up and lowers straight down.
>
I was thinking something that looks like a roll cage. Maybe two upper
cross members and 4 support posts (made from two pieces of bent tube),
and the rail/trolley being mounted on something "like" a full extension
drawer slide. I did a quick sketch, but the only person who would
understand it is me.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:ubbshp$20olp$1@dont-email.me...
....
I was thinking something that looks like a roll cage. Maybe two upper
cross members and 4 support posts (made from two pieces of bent tube),
and the rail/trolley being mounted on something "like" a full extension
drawer slide. I did a quick sketch, but the only person who would
understand it is me.
Bob La Londe

------------------
That's how I read your description. If I was doing it I might bend a sample
frame from EMT to test the idea and find necessary clearances. When I tested
10' lengths for column strength 3/4" EMT bowed at 120#, 1# at 360#. Shorter
lengths are stiffer, the 1" diagonals for my ladder rack held 750#, the
stake pocket eye limit. I don't make orders to metal suppliers that I could
add to so I use what's available locally, after testing its limits.

The gantry hoist on my shorter beam storage shed is similar, the indoor
section is permanently attached to the shed beams at both ends. I quickly
found that the track needed to be continuous for the full length of the
permanent inside and temporary outside extensions instead of rolling or
sliding out, to better control the load by hanging it from both sides (log
ends) instead of only the center. The trolley wheels have unavoidable static
friction and starting the load in motion sets it swinging, and twisting if
it can. I couldn't fill the shed with logs if I had to crawl in to
disconnect a central sling, plus that's dangerous.

On my scooter the battery pack locks the front and rear sections together,
it has to be lifted with a centered sling either intact or fully
disassembled, though lifting by the ends without the battery pack is OK. It
can be compressed vertically while otherwise intact by removing the seat and
its post and folding down the tiller, whose shaft becomes the front lifting
handle.

A difficulty with moving the track while loaded is you may have to lower the
load at mid travel to do it, perhaps damaging the trunk rim or losing
balance. I have a similar problem with the 16' gantry, the central A frame
is in the way, but resting a log on the ground to step the legs over it is
not unsafe or damaging.

Your frame can be simpler and lighter if it only has to support the weight
of the load, instead of 2 to 3 times its weight for a cantilevered track
that moves out and isn't supported at the outer end. The drawer slide
rollers would be particularly stressed as they moved close together. The
scooter has to move not only its own width, but the distance from the trunk
rim to the bumper edge. If assembling an extended track proves too much you
have most of what you need in place to change it to a telescoping one.

I have that problem with my truck crane. The crane and bed load rating is
1000# but 700# on the hook beyond the open tailgate compresses the
suspension against the bump stops, and broke the crane side one.

For light loads the outside extension could be pivoted at the joint which
would make attaching and supporting the outer track very simple, an A frame
should be enough. Mine is more complicated to handle 3/4 ton logs. If there
were inner and outer pivot holes on the end of the fixed track the extension
could be pinned to the outer one, raised and attached to the A frame, then
moved to the inner one to close the track gap. This avoids balancing it
level with one hand while trying to align and pin it with the other. A small
gap might be needed so the track joint could pivot as the car suspension
moves, instead of becoming a high stress concentration.

I have 80# of track to lift overhead and attach at both ends so I balance
both 40# channels separately on scrap wood placed across the rungs of a W
fold ladder that can be lifted off afterwards. My helpful neighbor can't
lift his arms above shoulder height to assist, I tell him that's because
Marines never surrender.

1" EMT telescopes into 1-3/8" chain link fence top rail to make the A frame
sectional for storage in the trunk. The top rail is swaged smaller on one
end so it can be cut in half to disassemble for storage too, though the
swaged end fits loosely.

You could look into a discarded garage door opener for the track and rollers
and maybe other parts.

On 8/14/2023 6:24 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:ubbshp$20olp$1@dont-email.me...
> ...
> I was thinking something that looks like a roll cage.  Maybe two upper
> cross members and 4 support posts (made from two pieces of bent tube),
> and the rail/trolley being mounted on something "like" a full extension
> drawer slide.  I did a quick sketch, but the only person who would
> understand it is me.
> Bob La Londe
>
> ------------------
> That's how I read your description. If I was doing it I might bend a
> sample frame from EMT to test the idea and find necessary clearances.
> When I tested 10' lengths for column strength 3/4" EMT bowed at 120#, 1#
> at 360#. Shorter lengths are stiffer, the 1" diagonals for my ladder
> rack held 750#, the stake pocket eye limit.  I don't make orders to
> metal suppliers that I could add to so I use what's available locally,
> after testing its limits.

Generally 1/2 and 3/4 EMT is pretty affordable tube. Rigid metal
conduit is functionally about the same as schedule 40 water pipe, and
its priced like it which I consider to be pretty expensive these days.
There used to be a nice compromise called IMC. Intermediate metal
conduit. Technically it still exists, but last time I looked I was not
able to find any locally. With one "supplier" it was a bit of a chore
to even find out they didn't have any, "but they could get it." A brick
and mortar industrial supplier who doesn't stock things is worse than
worthless. Several phone calls and emails and voice messages lead me to
the point where I realized the salesperson just wanted to "establish a
relationship." I didn't want to date the asshole. I just wanted a
price. I guess he was hoping he'd seduce me into wanting to buy his
friendship with over priced crap. Finally I gave up and called the
store instead of trying to use their quoting process. The guy who
answered at the front counter gave me the first honest sentence in a
couple days of bullshit. "We don't stock it, but we can get it for
you." I never did get a price.

Anyway, there used to be an intermediate conduit at an intermediate
price that was a little stronger than EMT and not as expensive as water
pipe. I used to be able to buy it from local electrical suppliers. I
think at one time they even had it in Home Depot, but that was when they
first opened here and were trying to see how many other businesses they
could make go bankrupt. After they hit their watershed they started
cutting selection and raising prices.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:ubdjfv$2ctvu$1@dont-email.me...

On 8/14/2023 6:24 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:ubbshp$20olp$1@dont-email.me...
> ...
> I was thinking something that looks like a roll cage. Maybe two upper
> cross members and 4 support posts (made from two pieces of bent tube),
> and the rail/trolley being mounted on something "like" a full extension
> drawer slide. I did a quick sketch, but the only person who would
> understand it is me.
> Bob La Londe
>
> ------------------
> That's how I read your description. If I was doing it I might bend a
> sample frame from EMT to test the idea and find necessary clearances. When
> I tested 10' lengths for column strength 3/4" EMT bowed at 120#, 1# at
> 360#. Shorter lengths are stiffer, the 1" diagonals for my ladder rack
> held 750#, the stake pocket eye limit. I don't make orders to metal
> suppliers that I could add to so I use what's available locally, after
> testing its limits.

Generally 1/2 and 3/4 EMT is pretty affordable tube. Rigid metal
conduit is functionally about the same as schedule 40 water pipe, and
its priced like it which I consider to be pretty expensive these days.
There used to be a nice compromise called IMC. Intermediate metal
conduit. Technically it still exists, but last time I looked I was not
able to find any locally. With one "supplier" it was a bit of a chore
to even find out they didn't have any, "but they could get it." A brick
and mortar industrial supplier who doesn't stock things is worse than
worthless. Several phone calls and emails and voice messages lead me to
the point where I realized the salesperson just wanted to "establish a
relationship." I didn't want to date the asshole. I just wanted a
price. I guess he was hoping he'd seduce me into wanting to buy his
friendship with over priced crap. Finally I gave up and called the
store instead of trying to use their quoting process. The guy who
answered at the front counter gave me the first honest sentence in a
couple days of bullshit. "We don't stock it, but we can get it for
you." I never did get a price.

Anyway, there used to be an intermediate conduit at an intermediate
price that was a little stronger than EMT and not as expensive as water
pipe. I used to be able to buy it from local electrical suppliers. I
think at one time they even had it in Home Depot, but that was when they
first opened here and were trying to see how many other businesses they
could make go bankrupt. After they hit their watershed they started
cutting selection and raising prices.
Bob La Londe

--------------------------

I use conduit in the smaller sizes I can bend with the manual tool, then as
loading increases change to water pipe or square tubing with joints prepped
on the milling machine and stick welded. Flat sided tubing is nicer to
attach to the side of, round to fit something to the end.

Rigid conduit is effectively water pipe without the interior weld flash, and
possibly closer to round. I haven't seen IMC either and have been satisfied
with what I can do with chain link fence post, which is available with
thicker gauge walls from fence suppliers. Its OD is the same as water pipe
though the nominal size may differ, being closer to the actual measurement,
which isn't an exact fraction for sizes below 2". EMT has the ID of the same
nominal size of water pipe, so in some sizes it can telescope with Big Box
thin-walled fence post.

If I was building this for myself instead of suggesting how to accomplish it
your way I'd add a post or other single point attachment at/near the front
of the trunk and support the other end of the gantry hoist track with an
external folding tripod. I came up with a design for a tripod in the 90's
and have used it extensively since, mainly to lift firewood logs to cut them
at waist height because I can't bend down for long and the ground here is
all sand/gravel/rocks.

I've held off describing my tripod top connection because it may be unique
and possibly patentable, at least I haven't found another instance of it on
commercial products. The legs are free to move in all directions and visibly
self-adjust to distribute the load, how evenly I don't know. I've assumed
k=1 for column loading of the legs, pinned at the top and a ball for the
foot, axial with no or minimal cantilevering. The angular geometry is
somewhat variable and too 3-dimensional for me to calculate. It's so simple
to do that there is nothing to manufacture and sell, anyone with a drill and
hacksaw could copy it. Should I reveal it here for comments?
jsw

On 8/14/2023 11:41 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:ubdjfv$2ctvu$1@dont-email.me...
>
> On 8/14/2023 6:24 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:ubbshp$20olp$1@dont-email.me...
>> ...
>> I was thinking something that looks like a roll cage.  Maybe two upper
>> cross members and 4 support posts (made from two pieces of bent tube),
>> and the rail/trolley being mounted on something "like" a full extension
>> drawer slide.  I did a quick sketch, but the only person who would
>> understand it is me.
>> Bob La Londe
>>
>> ------------------
>> That's how I read your description. If I was doing it I might bend a
>> sample frame from EMT to test the idea and find necessary clearances.
>> When I tested 10' lengths for column strength 3/4" EMT bowed at 120#,
>> 1# at 360#. Shorter lengths are stiffer, the 1" diagonals for my
>> ladder rack held 750#, the stake pocket eye limit.  I don't make
>> orders to metal suppliers that I could add to so I use what's
>> available locally, after testing its limits.
>
>
> Generally 1/2 and 3/4 EMT is pretty affordable tube.  Rigid metal
> conduit is functionally about the same as schedule 40 water pipe, and
> its priced like it which I consider to be pretty expensive these days.
> There used to be a nice compromise called IMC.  Intermediate metal
> conduit.  Technically it still exists, but last time I looked I was not
> able to find any locally.  With one "supplier" it was a bit of a chore
> to even find out they didn't have any, "but they could get it."  A brick
> and mortar industrial supplier who doesn't stock things is worse than
> worthless.  Several phone calls and emails and voice messages lead me to
> the point where I realized the salesperson just wanted to "establish a
> relationship."  I didn't want to date the asshole.  I just wanted a
> price.  I guess he was hoping he'd seduce me into wanting to buy his
> friendship with over priced crap.  Finally I gave up and called the
> store instead of trying to use their quoting process.  The guy who
> answered at the front counter gave me the first honest sentence in a
> couple days of bullshit.  "We don't stock it, but we can get it for
> you."  I never did get a price.
>
> Anyway, there used to be an intermediate conduit at an intermediate
> price that was a little stronger than EMT and not as expensive as water
> pipe.  I used to be able to buy it from local electrical suppliers.  I
> think at one time they even had it in Home Depot, but that was when they
> first opened here and were trying to see how many other businesses they
> could make go bankrupt.  After they hit their watershed they started
> cutting selection and raising prices.
> Bob La Londe
>
> --------------------------
>
> I use conduit in the smaller sizes I can bend with the manual tool, then
> as loading increases change to water pipe or square tubing with joints
> prepped on the milling machine and stick welded. Flat sided tubing is
> nicer to attach to the side of, round to fit something to the end.

In a past life I ran a fair amount of conduit. I have bent upto 1-1/2
EMT with a manual bender, but I didn't like it. 1/2, 3/4 and 1 aren't
to bad, and I still have lever/foot benders for those. When I had to
run 2" speced for fiber optic runs I either bought prebent elbow
pieces, or used a harbor freight hydraulic pipe kinker for custom offsets.

> Rigid conduit is effectively water pipe without the interior weld flash,
> and possibly closer to round. I haven't seen IMC either and have been
> satisfied with what I can do with chain link fence post, which is
> available with thicker gauge walls from fence suppliers. Its OD is the
> same as water pipe though the nominal size may differ, being closer to
> the actual measurement, which isn't an exact fraction for sizes below
> 2". EMT has the ID of the same nominal size of water pipe, so in some
> sizes it can telescope with Big Box thin-walled fence post.
>
> If I was building this for myself instead of suggesting how to
> accomplish it your way I'd add a post or other single point attachment
> at/near the front of the trunk and support the other end of the gantry
> hoist track with an external folding tripod.

I want as little as possible that must be manually deployed before it
can be used. As is I am struggling with even the fact that for my
design to work there will be a minimum of two pins or latches that must
be engaged or disengage during operation.

I am aware that the extended or telescoped rail is at a significant
mechanical disadvantage. Not just from bending, but also from possible
twisting depending on what can go wrong. My original thought in the
regard was a "brace" or frame to either side that is attached the
extended rail at the center, and rides in a support track at the outside
ends. It is easy to make quite strong this way, but I also do not want
to permanently obstruct 100% of the cargo space above the stowed cart.
Jack posts in the back (towards the front of the vehicle, or support
clamp towards the rear of the vehicle can be used to anchor it from
tipping. That's rather small consideration in the grand scheme.

Fortunately the carts my wife is looking at are pretty light as electric
mobility carts go.

I came up with a design for
> a tripod in the 90's and have used it extensively since, mainly to lift
> firewood logs to cut them at waist height because I can't bend down for
> long and the ground here is all sand/gravel/rocks.

I wonder if it isn't a variation of the old cooking support tripods. My
son made one in a blacksmithing class he took in college for fun. He
uses is at renaissance fairs in his "camp." He also made an adjustable
length pot hook to use with it that simply slides to the length you
want, and locks with the weight of the cooking pot.

> I've held off describing my tripod top connection because it may be
> unique and possibly patentable, at least I haven't found another
> instance of it on commercial products. The legs are free to move in all
> directions and visibly self-adjust to distribute the load, how evenly I
> don't know. I've assumed k=1 for column loading of the legs, pinned at
> the top and a ball for the foot, axial with no or minimal cantilevering.
> The angular geometry is somewhat variable and too 3-dimensional for me
> to calculate. It's so simple to do that there is nothing to manufacture
> and sell, anyone with a drill and hacksaw could copy it. Should I reveal
> it here for comments?
> jsw

That's entirely up to you. I am curious of course if your mechanism is
really different, but if I found it particularly clever I would be
tempted to copy it.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:ube0n3$2euak$1@dont-email.me...

On 8/14/2023 11:41 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
....

I want as little as possible that must be manually deployed before it
can be used. As is I am struggling with even the fact that for my
design to work there will be a minimum of two pins or latches that must
be engaged or disengage during operation.

[[The operator interface spec ultimately defines the implementation,
otherwise you create VCRs that permanently flash 12:00 because the owners
can't figure out how to set them. I'll guess freely until you realize I need
to see it, then I'll follow it. When programming I write the user interface
first to define the requirements and then make it happen.

With those requirements I have to repeat a frequently used German phrase
from the PBS detective program Luna & Sophie, "keine Ahnung", "I haven't a
clue." ]]

I am aware that the extended or telescoped rail is at a significant
mechanical disadvantage. Not just from bending, but also from possible
twisting depending on what can go wrong. My original thought in the
regard was a "brace" or frame to either side that is attached the
extended rail at the center, and rides in a support track at the outside
ends. It is easy to make quite strong this way, but I also do not want
to permanently obstruct 100% of the cargo space above the stowed cart.
Jack posts in the back (towards the front of the vehicle, or support
clamp towards the rear of the vehicle can be used to anchor it from
tipping. That's rather small consideration in the grand scheme.

Fortunately the carts my wife is looking at are pretty light as electric
mobility carts go.

>I came up with a design for
> a tripod in the 90's and have used it extensively since, mainly to lift
> firewood logs to cut them at waist height because I can't bend down for
> long and the ground here is all sand/gravel/rocks.

I wonder if it isn't a variation of the old cooking support tripods. My
son made one in a blacksmithing class he took in college for fun. He
uses is at renaissance fairs in his "camp." He also made an adjustable
length pot hook to use with it that simply slides to the length you
want, and locks with the weight of the cooking pot.
------------------------
There are no friction locks on the tripod, though I use them in preference
to mechanical devices on rope.
https://www.animatedknots.com/prusik-knot
and the faster to tie tautline hitch.

It's just bolts and short chains, connected in a way that may not seem right
at first but survived 3000# proof testing on a stump.

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:ubbj29$1vcr5$1@dont-email.me...

> The problem is she wants something that folds up to fit in the
> back of her Veloster Turbo and can be lifted in and out with some sort
> of crane.

-------------------------

Can you buy and install child seat anchors that attach to the ceiling in
front of the hatch hinge? I added them to the hidden attachment holes in my
CRV to increase the cargo restraint options.

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 12:53:05 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
wrote:

>On 8/14/2023 11:41 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:ubdjfv$2ctvu$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>> On 8/14/2023 6:24 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:ubbshp$20olp$1@dont-email.me...
>>> ...
>>> I was thinking something that looks like a roll cage.  Maybe two upper
>>> cross members and 4 support posts (made from two pieces of bent tube),
>>> and the rail/trolley being mounted on something "like" a full extension
>>> drawer slide.  I did a quick sketch, but the only person who would
>>> understand it is me.
>>> Bob La Londe
>>>
>>> ------------------
>>> That's how I read your description. If I was doing it I might bend a
>>> sample frame from EMT to test the idea and find necessary clearances.
>>> When I tested 10' lengths for column strength 3/4" EMT bowed at 120#,
>>> 1# at 360#. Shorter lengths are stiffer, the 1" diagonals for my
>>> ladder rack held 750#, the stake pocket eye limit.  I don't make
>>> orders to metal suppliers that I could add to so I use what's
>>> available locally, after testing its limits.
>>
>>
>> Generally 1/2 and 3/4 EMT is pretty affordable tube.  Rigid metal
>> conduit is functionally about the same as schedule 40 water pipe, and
>> its priced like it which I consider to be pretty expensive these days.
>> There used to be a nice compromise called IMC.  Intermediate metal
>> conduit.  Technically it still exists, but last time I looked I was not
>> able to find any locally.  With one "supplier" it was a bit of a chore
>> to even find out they didn't have any, "but they could get it."  A brick
>> and mortar industrial supplier who doesn't stock things is worse than
>> worthless.  Several phone calls and emails and voice messages lead me to
>> the point where I realized the salesperson just wanted to "establish a
>> relationship."  I didn't want to date the asshole.  I just wanted a
>> price.  I guess he was hoping he'd seduce me into wanting to buy his
>> friendship with over priced crap.  Finally I gave up and called the
>> store instead of trying to use their quoting process.  The guy who
>> answered at the front counter gave me the first honest sentence in a
>> couple days of bullshit.  "We don't stock it, but we can get it for
>> you."  I never did get a price.
>>
>> Anyway, there used to be an intermediate conduit at an intermediate
>> price that was a little stronger than EMT and not as expensive as water
>> pipe.  I used to be able to buy it from local electrical suppliers.  I
>> think at one time they even had it in Home Depot, but that was when they
>> first opened here and were trying to see how many other businesses they
>> could make go bankrupt.  After they hit their watershed they started
>> cutting selection and raising prices.
>> Bob La Londe
>>
>> --------------------------
>>
>> I use conduit in the smaller sizes I can bend with the manual tool, then
>> as loading increases change to water pipe or square tubing with joints
>> prepped on the milling machine and stick welded. Flat sided tubing is
>> nicer to attach to the side of, round to fit something to the end.
>
>In a past life I ran a fair amount of conduit. I have bent upto 1-1/2
>EMT with a manual bender, but I didn't like it. 1/2, 3/4 and 1 aren't
>to bad, and I still have lever/foot benders for those. When I had to
>run 2" speced for fiber optic runs I either bought prebent elbow
>pieces, or used a harbor freight hydraulic pipe kinker for custom offsets.
>
>
>> Rigid conduit is effectively water pipe without the interior weld flash,
>> and possibly closer to round. I haven't seen IMC either and have been
>> satisfied with what I can do with chain link fence post, which is
>> available with thicker gauge walls from fence suppliers. Its OD is the
>> same as water pipe though the nominal size may differ, being closer to
>> the actual measurement, which isn't an exact fraction for sizes below
>> 2". EMT has the ID of the same nominal size of water pipe, so in some
>> sizes it can telescope with Big Box thin-walled fence post.
>>
>> If I was building this for myself instead of suggesting how to
>> accomplish it your way I'd add a post or other single point attachment
>> at/near the front of the trunk and support the other end of the gantry
>> hoist track with an external folding tripod.
>
>I want as little as possible that must be manually deployed before it
>can be used. As is I am struggling with even the fact that for my
>design to work there will be a minimum of two pins or latches that must
>be engaged or disengage during operation.
>
>
>I am aware that the extended or telescoped rail is at a significant
>mechanical disadvantage. Not just from bending, but also from possible
>twisting depending on what can go wrong. My original thought in the
>regard was a "brace" or frame to either side that is attached the
>extended rail at the center, and rides in a support track at the outside
>ends. It is easy to make quite strong this way, but I also do not want
>to permanently obstruct 100% of the cargo space above the stowed cart.
>Jack posts in the back (towards the front of the vehicle, or support
>clamp towards the rear of the vehicle can be used to anchor it from
>tipping. That's rather small consideration in the grand scheme.
>
>Fortunately the carts my wife is looking at are pretty light as electric
>mobility carts go.
>
>I came up with a design for
>> a tripod in the 90's and have used it extensively since, mainly to lift
>> firewood logs to cut them at waist height because I can't bend down for
>> long and the ground here is all sand/gravel/rocks.
>
>I wonder if it isn't a variation of the old cooking support tripods. My
>son made one in a blacksmithing class he took in college for fun. He
>uses is at renaissance fairs in his "camp." He also made an adjustable
>length pot hook to use with it that simply slides to the length you
>want, and locks with the weight of the cooking pot.
>
>
>
>> I've held off describing my tripod top connection because it may be
>> unique and possibly patentable, at least I haven't found another
>> instance of it on commercial products. The legs are free to move in all
>> directions and visibly self-adjust to distribute the load, how evenly I
>> don't know. I've assumed k=1 for column loading of the legs, pinned at
>> the top and a ball for the foot, axial with no or minimal cantilevering.
>> The angular geometry is somewhat variable and too 3-dimensional for me
>> to calculate. It's so simple to do that there is nothing to manufacture
>> and sell, anyone with a drill and hacksaw could copy it. Should I reveal
>> it here for comments?
>> jsw
>
>
>That's entirely up to you. I am curious of course if your mechanism is
>really different, but if I found it particularly clever I would be
>tempted to copy it.
>
>
>--
>Bob La Londe
>Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
>real machinist
Just get an ultralite scooter - loke SuperHandy - that folds easily
and weighd 35 lbs.
Or an ATTO Travel scooter = breaks down into 2 parts - 62 lbs total
so aboiut 30 each part.

"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
news:f94mdi9ejl46r69rfvo0eg8u62mlgai6a2@4ax.com...

Just get an ultralite scooter - loke SuperHandy - that folds easily
and weighd 35 lbs.

---------------------------

If you can still walk and want to continue gardening they offer an electric
wheelbarrow.
https://www.amazon.com/SuperHandy-Wheelbarrow-Electric-Capacity-Material/dp/B08MWY588R
I know some candidates for that and I might become one, to move firewood.

DIY:
https://www.amazon.com/Electric-Wheelbarrow-Fishing-Conversion-Brushless/dp/B09WNDTPBS

At Segway the bins for out-of-spec components were next to Engineering and
they were encouraged to use them to try new ideas like that. All I've done
is make off-pavement trailers from equipment not meant for it, like a shop
crane.

On 8/14/2023 10:51 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 12:53:05 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
> wrote:
>
>> On 8/14/2023 11:41 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:ubdjfv$2ctvu$1@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>> On 8/14/2023 6:24 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:ubbshp$20olp$1@dont-email.me...
>>>> ...
>>>> I was thinking something that looks like a roll cage.  Maybe two upper
>>>> cross members and 4 support posts (made from two pieces of bent tube),
>>>> and the rail/trolley being mounted on something "like" a full extension
>>>> drawer slide.  I did a quick sketch, but the only person who would
>>>> understand it is me.
>>>> Bob La Londe
>>>>
>>>> ------------------
>>>> That's how I read your description. If I was doing it I might bend a
>>>> sample frame from EMT to test the idea and find necessary clearances.
>>>> When I tested 10' lengths for column strength 3/4" EMT bowed at 120#,
>>>> 1# at 360#. Shorter lengths are stiffer, the 1" diagonals for my
>>>> ladder rack held 750#, the stake pocket eye limit.  I don't make
>>>> orders to metal suppliers that I could add to so I use what's
>>>> available locally, after testing its limits.
>>>
>>>
>>> Generally 1/2 and 3/4 EMT is pretty affordable tube.  Rigid metal
>>> conduit is functionally about the same as schedule 40 water pipe, and
>>> its priced like it which I consider to be pretty expensive these days.
>>> There used to be a nice compromise called IMC.  Intermediate metal
>>> conduit.  Technically it still exists, but last time I looked I was not
>>> able to find any locally.  With one "supplier" it was a bit of a chore
>>> to even find out they didn't have any, "but they could get it."  A brick
>>> and mortar industrial supplier who doesn't stock things is worse than
>>> worthless.  Several phone calls and emails and voice messages lead me to
>>> the point where I realized the salesperson just wanted to "establish a
>>> relationship."  I didn't want to date the asshole.  I just wanted a
>>> price.  I guess he was hoping he'd seduce me into wanting to buy his
>>> friendship with over priced crap.  Finally I gave up and called the
>>> store instead of trying to use their quoting process.  The guy who
>>> answered at the front counter gave me the first honest sentence in a
>>> couple days of bullshit.  "We don't stock it, but we can get it for
>>> you."  I never did get a price.
>>>
>>> Anyway, there used to be an intermediate conduit at an intermediate
>>> price that was a little stronger than EMT and not as expensive as water
>>> pipe.  I used to be able to buy it from local electrical suppliers.  I
>>> think at one time they even had it in Home Depot, but that was when they
>>> first opened here and were trying to see how many other businesses they
>>> could make go bankrupt.  After they hit their watershed they started
>>> cutting selection and raising prices.
>>> Bob La Londe
>>>
>>> --------------------------
>>>
>>> I use conduit in the smaller sizes I can bend with the manual tool, then
>>> as loading increases change to water pipe or square tubing with joints
>>> prepped on the milling machine and stick welded. Flat sided tubing is
>>> nicer to attach to the side of, round to fit something to the end.
>>
>> In a past life I ran a fair amount of conduit. I have bent upto 1-1/2
>> EMT with a manual bender, but I didn't like it. 1/2, 3/4 and 1 aren't
>> to bad, and I still have lever/foot benders for those. When I had to
>> run 2" speced for fiber optic runs I either bought prebent elbow
>> pieces, or used a harbor freight hydraulic pipe kinker for custom offsets.
>>
>>
>>> Rigid conduit is effectively water pipe without the interior weld flash,
>>> and possibly closer to round. I haven't seen IMC either and have been
>>> satisfied with what I can do with chain link fence post, which is
>>> available with thicker gauge walls from fence suppliers. Its OD is the
>>> same as water pipe though the nominal size may differ, being closer to
>>> the actual measurement, which isn't an exact fraction for sizes below
>>> 2". EMT has the ID of the same nominal size of water pipe, so in some
>>> sizes it can telescope with Big Box thin-walled fence post.
>>>
>>> If I was building this for myself instead of suggesting how to
>>> accomplish it your way I'd add a post or other single point attachment
>>> at/near the front of the trunk and support the other end of the gantry
>>> hoist track with an external folding tripod.
>>
>> I want as little as possible that must be manually deployed before it
>> can be used. As is I am struggling with even the fact that for my
>> design to work there will be a minimum of two pins or latches that must
>> be engaged or disengage during operation.
>>
>>
>> I am aware that the extended or telescoped rail is at a significant
>> mechanical disadvantage. Not just from bending, but also from possible
>> twisting depending on what can go wrong. My original thought in the
>> regard was a "brace" or frame to either side that is attached the
>> extended rail at the center, and rides in a support track at the outside
>> ends. It is easy to make quite strong this way, but I also do not want
>> to permanently obstruct 100% of the cargo space above the stowed cart.
>> Jack posts in the back (towards the front of the vehicle, or support
>> clamp towards the rear of the vehicle can be used to anchor it from
>> tipping. That's rather small consideration in the grand scheme.
>>
>> Fortunately the carts my wife is looking at are pretty light as electric
>> mobility carts go.
>>
>> I came up with a design for
>>> a tripod in the 90's and have used it extensively since, mainly to lift
>>> firewood logs to cut them at waist height because I can't bend down for
>>> long and the ground here is all sand/gravel/rocks.
>>
>> I wonder if it isn't a variation of the old cooking support tripods. My
>> son made one in a blacksmithing class he took in college for fun. He
>> uses is at renaissance fairs in his "camp." He also made an adjustable
>> length pot hook to use with it that simply slides to the length you
>> want, and locks with the weight of the cooking pot.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I've held off describing my tripod top connection because it may be
>>> unique and possibly patentable, at least I haven't found another
>>> instance of it on commercial products. The legs are free to move in all
>>> directions and visibly self-adjust to distribute the load, how evenly I
>>> don't know. I've assumed k=1 for column loading of the legs, pinned at
>>> the top and a ball for the foot, axial with no or minimal cantilevering.
>>> The angular geometry is somewhat variable and too 3-dimensional for me
>>> to calculate. It's so simple to do that there is nothing to manufacture
>>> and sell, anyone with a drill and hacksaw could copy it. Should I reveal
>>> it here for comments?
>>> jsw
>>
>>
>> That's entirely up to you. I am curious of course if your mechanism is
>> really different, but if I found it particularly clever I would be
>> tempted to copy it.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bob La Londe
>> Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
>> real machinist
> Just get an ultralite scooter - loke SuperHandy - that folds easily
> and weighd 35 lbs.
> Or an ATTO Travel scooter = breaks down into 2 parts - 62 lbs total
> so aboiut 30 each part.

After multiple back and neck surgeries my wife's X-Rays make her look
like a cyborg. She isn't supposed to lift anything more then ten
pounds. She does but she isn't supposed to.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:ubgdub$2tsi7$1@dont-email.me..

After multiple back and neck surgeries my wife's X-Rays make her look
like a cyborg. She isn't supposed to lift anything more then ten
pounds. She does but she isn't supposed to.

Bob La Londe

---------------------------

If the Hyundai does have concealed tapped holes for rear child seat anchors
in the ceiling the hoist attachment may become simpler and less intrusive.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/attachments/honda-cr-v-element-156/280671d1342820053-2001-cr-v-has-child-seat-anchors-but-retrofit-97-00-cr-v-tether-points.jpg

I had to feel for the holes and punch through the ceiling liner.