In my process of adding an EV charging station I had wanted to add
another 20 amp 220V outlet for occasional use of other 220V equipment in
the garage. (band saw, radial arm saw, non business CNC machine, etc)
With the 50 amp breaker for the charging station the sub panel is now
full. They make high density breakers (4 poles in the space of 2), but
I was unable to find one for this panel.

I know the odds of one of you being specifically familiar is slim, but
its worth a shot.

Before somebody says, "Did you try Home Depot?" in a dry nasally voice.
Yes I tried all the usual easy suspects.

The sub panel is a GE PowerMark Gold Load Center. I am looking for a
drop in 4 pole high density breaker in the configuration of 20/20-20/20.
It looks like the Siemens breakers with a UNV suffix may be a correct
fit, but the outside poles on the only one I found were 15 amp. All the
existing circuits are 20 amp. The panel is currently being used as a
sub panel, and is full at the moment. Other Siemens breakers I found
that appeared to be a match will not physically fit. They have a
blocker plate on the connections, and the physical gap in the middle is
to narrow.

I did also look for a GE solution since its a GE panel, but was unable
to find anything at all. I would ask them if they had a solution I had
not found, but they make accepting all cookies and agreeing to receive
SPAM a condition of contact.

The suffix UNV I found with the 15 amp poles was at Lowes. I did not
physically try it, but visually it appears to have the correct gap to
fit around the plastic rejection tab in the panel, the correct depth for
the contact lugs, and correct snap in length when compared directly with
the 50 amp GE breaker I used for the EV station.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 9/27/2023 5:08 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> In my process of adding an EV charging station I had wanted to add
> another 20 amp 220V outlet for occasional use of other 220V equipment in
> the garage.  (band saw, radial arm saw, non business CNC machine, etc)
> With the 50 amp breaker for the charging station the sub panel is now
> full.  They make high density breakers (4 poles in the space of 2), but
> I was unable to find one for this panel.
>
> I know the odds of one of you being specifically familiar is slim, but
> its worth a shot.
>
> Before somebody says, "Did you try Home Depot?" in a dry nasally voice.
> Yes I tried all the usual easy suspects.
>
> The sub panel is a GE PowerMark Gold Load Center. I am looking for a
> drop in 4 pole high density breaker in the configuration of 20/20-20/20.
>  It looks like the Siemens breakers with a UNV suffix may be a correct
> fit, but the outside poles on the only one I found were 15 amp.  All the
> existing circuits are 20 amp.  The panel is currently being used as a
> sub panel, and is full at the moment.  Other Siemens breakers I found
> that appeared to be a match will not physically fit.  They have a
> blocker plate on the connections, and the physical gap in the middle is
> to narrow.
>
> I did also look for a GE solution since its a GE panel, but was unable
> to find anything at all.  I would ask them if they had a solution I had
> not found, but they make accepting all cookies and agreeing to receive
> SPAM a condition of contact.
>
> The suffix UNV I found with the 15 amp poles was at Lowes. I did not
> physically try it, but visually it appears to have the correct gap to
> fit around the plastic rejection tab in the panel, the correct depth for
> the contact lugs, and correct snap in length when compared directly with
> the 50 amp GE breaker I used for the EV station.
>
>

As I sit out here trying to find another breaker I just received a
couple images via text from my wife. She has plugged the new EV station
into her car for the first time and it appears to be working.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> In my process of adding an EV charging station I had wanted to add
> another 20 amp 220V outlet for occasional use of other 220V equipment
> in the garage. (band saw, radial arm saw, non business CNC machine,
> etc) With the 50 amp breaker for the charging station the sub panel is
> now full. They make high density breakers (4 poles in the space of
> 2), but I was unable to find one for this panel.
>
> ...

Similar-ish thought about outbuilding here (UK - 230V). If want it on
a line protected with a time-delayed higher fault current Residual
Current Device - so the RCD in the outbuilding would trip first but
the cable from the house to the outbuilding is still sufficiently
protected - then could have a separate
single-isolator/single-RCD/single-MCB
[MCB == Miniature Circuit Breaker]
box having power coming off the make distribution board just after its
incoming isolator.

You'd be adding a third Residual Current Device in the "Consumer Unit"
(distribution board)
* each RCD takes up two spaces on the rail - takes up space
* another live and neutral cable from isolator to "special" RCD

so separate box suggested as most elegant solution.

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:uf2ge1$3b8kg$3@dont-email.me...

> I know the odds of one of you being specifically familiar is slim, but its
> worth a shot.

Sorry, can't help. My house has a 200A service for no longer used electric
heat so there's plenty of space for welding breakers, and the State's new
registration surcharge for electric vehicles killed my interest in a PHEV.
This spring our electric rate was $0.30 per KWH, now it's 'down' to $0.22.
When the people across the street gave me permission to cut dead trees for
firewood on their large property I installed a woodstove. I grew up with
coal/steam heat and am used to a cool house in the morning.

On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 17:12:49 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

>As I sit out here trying to find another breaker I just received a
>couple images via text from my wife. She has plugged the new EV station
>into her car for the first time and it appears to be working.

Nice! So all the work wasn't in vain😉

Without looking at the panel and doing research...

Can you replace a couple of your 20amp singles with tandem/duals which
should free up a spot for a 20amp 2-pole 240v?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/386130342474

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On 9/28/2023 5:56 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 17:12:49 -0700
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>
>> As I sit out here trying to find another breaker I just received a
>> couple images via text from my wife. She has plugged the new EV station
>> into her car for the first time and it appears to be working.
>
> Nice! So all the work wasn't in vain😉
>
> Without looking at the panel and doing research...
>
> Can you replace a couple of your 20amp singles with tandem/duals which
> should free up a spot for a 20amp 2-pole 240v?
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/386130342474
>

Those actually look like they might work. There appears to be adequate
clearance for the plastic rejection tabs in the panel. I can't tell
from the photos if there is a blocker plate on the panel lug or not, but
at 15-18 bucks I can buy one just to find out.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 9/28/2023 2:11 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>
>> In my process of adding an EV charging station I had wanted to add
>> another 20 amp 220V outlet for occasional use of other 220V equipment
>> in the garage. (band saw, radial arm saw, non business CNC machine,
>> etc) With the 50 amp breaker for the charging station the sub panel is
>> now full. They make high density breakers (4 poles in the space of
>> 2), but I was unable to find one for this panel.
>>
>> ...
>
> Similar-ish thought about outbuilding here (UK - 230V). If want it on
> a line protected with a time-delayed higher fault current Residual
> Current Device - so the RCD in the outbuilding would trip first but
> the cable from the house to the outbuilding is still sufficiently
> protected - then could have a separate
> single-isolator/single-RCD/single-MCB
> [MCB == Miniature Circuit Breaker]
> box having power coming off the make distribution board just after its
> incoming isolator.
>
> You'd be adding a third Residual Current Device in the "Consumer Unit"
> (distribution board)
> * each RCD takes up two spaces on the rail - takes up space
> * another live and neutral cable from isolator to "special" RCD
>
> so separate box suggested as most elegant solution.
>
>
>
>

Its my understanding in the UK you have a simpler single voltage 220V
(nominal) service for residential and non-industrial.

In the US residential and non-industrial is usually split phase. We
have a single phase coming in, but its got a half tap at the service
transformer for 120V nominal which is what most small to medium devices
are designed to work with. The 120V device can be wire from either leg
to the half tap or neutral. It makes for some interesting conversations
with other do-it-yourselfers. In the past there were house which only
received half phase. That is their service entrance was 120V nominal
only.

I may not have the terms exactly right, but that's the gist of it. Like
I said, it makes wiring in extra stuff interesting.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 9/28/2023 9:52 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 9/28/2023 5:56 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 17:12:49 -0700
>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>>
>>> As I sit out here trying to find another breaker I just received a
>>> couple images via text from my wife.  She has plugged the new EV station
>>> into her car for the first time and it appears to be working.
>>
>> Nice! So all the work wasn't in vain😉
>>
>> Without looking at the panel and doing research...
>>
>> Can you replace a couple of your 20amp singles with tandem/duals which
>> should free up a spot for a 20amp 2-pole 240v?
>>
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/386130342474
>>
>
>
> Those actually look like they might work.  There appears to be adequate
> clearance for the plastic rejection tabs in the panel.  I can't tell
> from the photos if there is a blocker plate on the panel lug or not, but
> at 15-18 bucks I can buy one just to find out.
>

My concern is that they may have either a blocker plate or they may be
the alternate style breaker connection like the one linked below.

Fourth Image Down:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Line-20-Amp-1-in-Double-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-THQP220/100166263#overlay

I've been excited to have found a solution more than once in this search
only to discover I've been stymied again.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On Thu, 28 Sep 2023 10:09:38 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

>On 9/28/2023 9:52 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 9/28/2023 5:56 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> [...]
> [...]
> [...]
>>
>>
>> Those actually look like they might work.  There appears to be adequate
>> clearance for the plastic rejection tabs in the panel.  I can't tell
>> from the photos if there is a blocker plate on the panel lug or not, but
>> at 15-18 bucks I can buy one just to find out.
>>
>
>
>My concern is that they may have either a blocker plate or they may be
>the alternate style breaker connection like the one linked below.
>
>
>Fourth Image Down:
>https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Line-20-Amp-1-in-Double-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-THQP220/100166263#overlay
>
>I've been excited to have found a solution more than once in this search
>only to discover I've been stymied again.

The images used by the Ebay seller are the exact same images from this
Home Depot listing. Compare the white numbers on them🙄

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-20-Amp-Tandem-Single-Pole-Type-QT-Circuit-Breaker-Q2020U/100016494

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

You are right - 230V single-phase from the local substation feeding
the area.
You went with Tesla's recommendation of 60Hz which is clearly "just
right" for long-distance transmission. Where out 50Hz is
unnecessarily slower and increases the size of transformers, etc.

The only 110V we use in the UK isn't even "normal supply" - on
building sites we have centre-tapped transformers so in-effect have
-55V and +55V. Very safe.
230V is a bit too much for construction sites, for sure.
Residual Current Devices make 230V power tools acceptable for domestic
work.

On 28/09/2023 21:16, Richard Smith wrote:
> You are right - 230V single-phase from the local substation feeding
> the area.
> You went with Tesla's recommendation of 60Hz which is clearly "just
> right" for long-distance transmission. Where out 50Hz is
> unnecessarily slower and increases the size of transformers, etc.
>
> The only 110V we use in the UK isn't even "normal supply" - on
> building sites we have centre-tapped transformers so in-effect have
> -55V and +55V. Very safe.
> 230V is a bit too much for construction sites, for sure.
> Residual Current Devices make 230V power tools acceptable for domestic
> work.

Not always 60Hz though after reading about the 1965 US blackout
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_1965 where it
mentions some areas as 25Hz, also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency which gives a wide
variety of frequencies early on. IIRC it was mentioned UK Europe went
50Hz as it was better for motors and 60Hz in the US as arc lights were
more stable.

On 9/28/2023 5:23 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:uf2ge1$3b8kg$3@dont-email.me...
>
>> I know the odds of one of you being specifically familiar is slim, but
>> its worth a shot.
>
> Sorry, can't help. My house has a 200A service for no longer used
> electric heat so there's plenty of space for welding breakers, and the
> State's new registration surcharge for electric vehicles killed my
> interest in a PHEV. This spring our electric rate was $0.30 per KWH, now
> it's 'down' to $0.22. When the people across the street gave me
> permission to cut dead trees for firewood on their large property I
> installed a woodstove. I grew up with coal/steam heat and am used to a
> cool house in the morning.
>

I cut a percentage of my firewood into what I call "overnighters" ,
and they can be some bigass chunks - my stove door opening is 11"x 11"
and the fire box is 24" long . I hate waking up to a cold house ...
Looking at predictions for a strengthening el nino I think I better
get more busier with the firewood collecting .
As far as Bob's breaker , I wish I could help . I've still got 5 open
slots in my 200A main panel , and I think 2 slots in the 100A sub panel
out in the shop . I educated guesstimated what I wanted to do then
doubled the size/breaker capacity . Good thing too .
--
Snag
Men don't protect women because they're weak .
We protect them because they're important .

On 9/28/2023 12:48 PM, bruce bowser wrote:
> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 1:09:43 PM UTC-4, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 9/28/2023 9:52 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>> On 9/28/2023 5:56 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 17:12:49 -0700
>>>> Bob La Londe <no...@none.com99> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As I sit out here trying to find another breaker I just received a
>>>>> couple images via text from my wife. She has plugged the new EV station
>>>>> into her car for the first time and it appears to be working.
>>>>
>>>> Nice! So all the work wasn't in vain😉
>>>>
>>>> Without looking at the panel and doing research...
>>>>
>>>> Can you replace a couple of your 20amp singles with tandem/duals which
>>>> should free up a spot for a 20amp 2-pole 240v?
>>>>
>>>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/386130342474
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Those actually look like they might work. There appears to be adequate
>>> clearance for the plastic rejection tabs in the panel. I can't tell
>>> from the photos if there is a blocker plate on the panel lug or not, but
>>> at 15-18 bucks I can buy one just to find out.
>>>
>> My concern is that they may have either a blocker plate or they may be
>> the alternate style breaker connection like the one linked below.
>>
>>
>> Fourth Image Down:
>> https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Line-20-Amp-1-in-Double-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-THQP220/100166263#overlay
>>
>> I've been excited to have found a solution more than once in this search
>> only to discover I've been stymied again.
>
> Just make good buddies with a union journeyman electrician.
>

I wouldn't let a union 'trician within a hundred yards of my house .
But then I was a Navy electrician , and they have actual standards
besides time in position and timely payment of union dues .
--
Snag
Men don't protect women because they're weak .
We protect them because they're important .

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:uf4bic$3p2la$3@dont-email.me...

In the US residential and non-industrial is usually split phase. We
have a single phase coming in, but its got a half tap at the service
transformer for 120V nominal which is what most small to medium devices
are designed to work with. The 120V device can be wire from either leg
to the half tap or neutral. It makes for some interesting conversations
with other do-it-yourselfers. In the past there were house which only
received half phase. That is their service entrance was 120V nominal
only.

I may not have the terms exactly right, but that's the gist of it. Like
I said, it makes wiring in extra stuff interesting.

-------------------------
I remember the single drop and 60A screw-in fusebox. My father bought and
remodeled old houses as a sideline, I think because it gave him problems he
could solve with a hammer. He became pretty good at everything except 3-way
light switches. I might have helped him more if my role hadn't been the
nail.

I would describe the US residential service as coming from a center-tapped
transformer secondary winding with the center tap defined as neutral and
grounded, thus the two ends of the secondary are 120V at 180 degrees apart,
each is 120V to neutral and 240V to the other one. In the breaker box the
connecting tabs to the two hot "phases" are interleaved such that a double
breaker connects to both for 240V, a single breaker to one for 120V, and the
single breakers above and below it are the opposite phase so hopefully the
electrician will more or less balance the loads between them as he works his
way down.

Large loads such as the kitchen stove, water heater and clothes dryer use
double breakers for 240V, wall outlets and room overhead lighting uses
single ones for 120V, with the loads connected in series unlike the British
loop that feeds from both ends. The wall outlets and switched ceiling
lighting in each room are supposed to be on different breakers so the room
can be lit with one while the other is shut off for maintenance. Back when I
learned this the wall outlet circuits were wired for 20A and the lighting
for 15A, with thinner wire. Sometimes a wall switch controls an outlet meant
for a lamp, especially if there isn't an overhead ceiling lamp which could
cause a leak in the insulation.

There can be variations. My house has a separate meter and breaker box for
the water heater which is billed at a lower rate. The main drop is 200A for
the baseboard electric heating that was expected to be cheap nuclear in
1970. Rooftop solar uses a different meter that records power bought and
sold by the customer separately. Determining the direction of AC is actually
easy, a phone does it with voice to send and receive on a single pair of
wires.

Another difference from British practice is the fuse isn't in the plug,
unless it's a built-in ground fault interrupter. It protects the house
wiring, the appliance is its designers problem. Old fuse boxes were meant to
have the center contact of the screw-in fuse hot so that once you unscrewed
the fuse part way the more accessible threaded shell was safe to
accidentally touch, which it wouldn't be with a ring main. Holders for
cylindrical glass automotive fuses that can be used for 120V should be wired
the same way, hot at the inner end.

You can identify which breaker controls an outlet without a helper by
plugging in a vacuum cleaner that vibrates the floor and can be heard from
far away.

Although house wiring is sometimes considered two phase, that term is
formally reserved for separate circuits 90 degrees apart which was Tesla's
original sine and cosine supply that created a smoothly rotating magnetic
field to eliminate DC motor brushes. It required four distribution wires
while 3 phases at 120 degrees apart could be done more cheaply with three
and so replaced it.

Industrial schematics label the phases and the wires themselves L1, L2 and
L3 (L=Line) ,and each succeeding wire connection takes an increasing
numerical prefix, so that the wires coming from the 3 phase breaker may be
1L1, 1L2, 1L3, then 2L1, 2L2, 2L3 from a contactor to a motor, etc. The
parallel lines that look like a capacitor are normally open relay contacts
that should have their associated Control Relay (CR) indicated with a circle
for the coil. The N-like variant is a normally closed contact, normally
meaning powered off. This is called a ladder diagram because the power lines
are usually vertical and the relay contacts and coils etc drawn horizontally
between them.

-jsw

"Snag" wrote in message news:uf4rsv$3sbq8$2@dont-email.me...

I wouldn't let a union 'trician within a hundred yards of my house .
But then I was a Navy electrician , and they have actual standards
besides time in position and timely payment of union dues .
Snag

----------------------

I've read the Navy isolates all the power, no grounded Neutral, so a single
short to the hull won't bring down the system.

Did you learn about the power failure on the battleship USS South Dakota at
Guadalcanal? Was it really sabotage? I thought the two generators were
cross-connected without synchronizing them. The damage report was written
much later and contains known errors.

The fires on South Dakota masked Washington beyond and she scored on
Kirishima with amazing accuracy. Usually battleships hit each other with
about 2% of the shells, Washington's radar-controlled night gunnery was
closer to 25%. That and the one-sided battle at Leyte are the only evidence
of how good our battleships were. It suggests what the US battleships at
Leyte might have done to Yamato if she hadn't turned back. Although they may
not have been able to defeat her armor they could have destroyed the
superstructure and ability to aim, which had shut down Bismarck.

"bruce bowser" wrote in message
news:6061462e-0424-4134-8777-5012f9c1917dn@googlegroups.com...

Just make good buddies with a union journeyman electrician.

-------------------------

Then be prepared to hear all his war stories about customers and inspectors.
BTDT

On Thu, 28 Sep 2023 16:36:53 -0500, Snag <Snag_one@msn.com> wrote:

>On 9/28/2023 5:23 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:uf2ge1$3b8kg$3@dont-email.me...
>>
>>> I know the odds of one of you being specifically familiar is slim, but
>>> its worth a shot.
>>
>> Sorry, can't help. My house has a 200A service for no longer used
>> electric heat so there's plenty of space for welding breakers, and the
>> State's new registration surcharge for electric vehicles killed my
>> interest in a PHEV. This spring our electric rate was $0.30 per KWH, now
>> it's 'down' to $0.22. When the people across the street gave me
>> permission to cut dead trees for firewood on their large property I
>> installed a woodstove. I grew up with coal/steam heat and am used to a
>> cool house in the morning.
>>
>
> I cut a percentage of my firewood into what I call "overnighters" ,
>and they can be some bigass chunks - my stove door opening is 11"x 11"
>and the fire box is 24" long . I hate waking up to a cold house ...
> Looking at predictions for a strengthening el nino I think I better
>get more busier with the firewood collecting .
> As far as Bob's breaker , I wish I could help . I've still got 5 open
>slots in my 200A main panel , and I think 2 slots in the 100A sub panel
>out in the shop . I educated guesstimated what I wanted to do then
>doubled the size/breaker capacity . Good thing too .
When we got on line in 1948, on electrician was getting a high
percentage of the wireing jobs in an area where no one knew much about
electrical equipment. His price for wireinng a house was based on one
cieling light and one wall plug per room; stairway lighting control
was a pull chain socket with a long string to the lower floor.
Incoming electrical service was two wire 120V feeding a two pole
disconnect with two 15A. fuses. Believe it or not, this was approved
by the inspector (he retired shortly thereafter)

On Thu, 28 Sep 2023 21:37:38 +0100, David Billington <djb@invalid.com>
wrote:

>On 28/09/2023 21:16, Richard Smith wrote:
>> You are right - 230V single-phase from the local substation feeding
>> the area.
>> You went with Tesla's recommendation of 60Hz which is clearly "just
>> right" for long-distance transmission. Where out 50Hz is
>> unnecessarily slower and increases the size of transformers, etc.
>>
>> The only 110V we use in the UK isn't even "normal supply" - on
>> building sites we have centre-tapped transformers so in-effect have
>> -55V and +55V. Very safe.
>> 230V is a bit too much for construction sites, for sure.
>> Residual Current Devices make 230V power tools acceptable for domestic
>> work.
>
>Not always 60Hz though after reading about the 1965 US blackout
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_1965 where it
>mentions some areas as 25Hz, also
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency which gives a wide
>variety of frequencies early on. IIRC it was mentioned UK Europe went
>50Hz as it was better for motors and 60Hz in the US as arc lights were
>more stable.
I think it was aroun 1950 when Toronto and a large surrounding area
switched over from 25 to 60 Hz. I remember visiting Mother'family and
noticing how thier ligts all blinked. It cost the supplier a fortune
to replace all the affected equipment!

"Gerry" wrote in message news:3lhchid8q6ln5r03p32od5do0atpb7jatj@4ax.com...

I think it was aroun 1950 when Toronto and a large surrounding area
switched over from 25 to 60 Hz. I remember visiting Mother'family and
noticing how thier ligts all blinked. It cost the supplier a fortune
to replace all the affected equipment!

-----------------------------

https://www.djtelectricaltraining.co.uk/downloads/50Hz-Frequency.pdf

I don't have references that explains why aircraft chose 400Hz to reduce
iron core weight and electric trains, the biggest early users, used 25Hz for
some good reason. Fukushima couldn't get enough Diesel generator and
external power for the reactor cooling pumps at their frequency or
supplement it with power at the other frequency, which the media
misunderstood and reported as a problem with incompatible plugs.

The sine function is a one-dimensional representation of rotation at
constant speed, such as the height of a bicycle tire valve when the wheel is
coasting, neither gaining nor losing speed or energy. Thus it's the AC
equivalent of a steady state. The cosine is the same, at a right angle to
the sine, and the two together define and can recreate a circle, and as
electrical waveforms they can transmit and fully reconstruct rotary motion
theoretically without loss.

Single phase AC is like power from bicycle pedals that only push up and down
and need a boost to get started, which extra start windings in a motor
provide.

On 9/28/2023 6:50 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Snag"  wrote in message news:uf4rsv$3sbq8$2@dont-email.me...
>
>   I wouldn't let a union 'trician  within a hundred yards of my house .
> But then I was a Navy electrician , and they have actual standards
> besides time in position and timely payment of union dues .
> Snag
>
> ----------------------
>
> I've read the Navy isolates all the power, no grounded Neutral,  so a
> single short to the hull won't bring down the system.

That's part of it , part of the reason is electrolysis . Makes
repairs lots of fun if you have to work on a hot 450V circuit .

>
> Did you learn about the power failure on the battleship USS South Dakota
> at Guadalcanal? Was it really sabotage? I thought the two generators
> were cross-connected without synchronizing them. The damage report was
> written much later and contains known errors.
>
> The fires on South Dakota masked Washington beyond and she scored on
> Kirishima with amazing accuracy. Usually battleships hit each other with
> about 2% of the shells, Washington's radar-controlled night gunnery was
> closer to 25%. That and the one-sided battle at Leyte are the only
> evidence of how good our battleships were. It suggests what the US
> battleships at Leyte might have done to Yamato if she hadn't turned
> back. Although they may not have been able to defeat her armor they
> could have destroyed the superstructure and ability to aim, which had
> shut down Bismarck.
>

I've never heard about the South Dakota problems , but bringing
another generator that size on line without syncing will make one hell
of a noise as both units destroy themselves . I forget which port we
were in when the guys who hooked up shore power got a pair of cables
crossed . About 30 seconds after the switch the Chief Machinist Mate
grabbed me and said "Get this boat back on ships power NOW I've got
several million dollars worth of power plant all running backward and
it's gonna get ugly real fast . When I engaged the generators the whole
damn ship (400 foot long destroyer) jumped . I figure the only reason it
didn't jump when they switched was because they were slow enough for
motors and stuff to wind down .
--
Snag
Men don't protect women because they're weak .
We protect them because they're important .

On Fri, 29 Sep 2023 07:28:11 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
<muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Gerry" wrote in message news:3lhchid8q6ln5r03p32od5do0atpb7jatj@4ax.com...
>
>I think it was aroun 1950 when Toronto and a large surrounding area
>switched over from 25 to 60 Hz. I remember visiting Mother'family and
>noticing how thier ligts all blinked. It cost the supplier a fortune
>to replace all the affected equipment!
>
>-----------------------------
>
>https://www.djtelectricaltraining.co.uk/downloads/50Hz-Frequency.pdf
>
>I don't have references that explains why aircraft chose 400Hz to reduce
>iron core weight and electric trains, the biggest early users, used 25Hz for
>some good reason. Fukushima couldn't get enough Diesel generator and
>external power for the reactor cooling pumps at their frequency or
>supplement it with power at the other frequency, which the media
>misunderstood and reported as a problem with incompatible plugs.
Airplanes used 400 Hz because 400 Hz transformers are a fraction the
size and weight of that at 60 Hz.

Servo systems and magnetic amplifiers on ships also used 400 Hz, for
the same reasons.

Trains used 25 Hz because propulsion motor systems for trains were
cheapest at that frequency, and soma worked at ~16 Hz. Lower
frequency means lower motor speed means less gearing needed.

Another constraint was the ever-improving magnetic properties of
transformer core materials. The 400 Hz stuff was not practical in the
early days of electric powered trains.

As for Fukushima, I no longer recall what caused the cooling systems
to fail, but it was not lack of diesel fuel, unless one thinks that
the Japanese Government would have been unable to buy a tanker ship
full of diesel fuel and station it on the wharf right in front of
Fukushima.

Hmm. I'm thinking that tsunami seawater inundation destroyed the
generators and electrical equipment, and maybe the cooling pump
electric motors.

Joe Gwinn

"Joe Gwinn" wrote in message
news:vnsdhi9pb0j7kvp7d1hbst7khsnboikhc4@4ax.com...

As for Fukushima, I no longer recall what caused the cooling systems
to fail, but it was not lack of diesel fuel, unless one thinks that
the Japanese Government would have been unable to buy a tanker ship
full of diesel fuel and station it on the wharf right in front of
Fukushima.

Hmm. I'm thinking that tsunami seawater inundation destroyed the
generators and electrical equipment, and maybe the cooling pump
electric motors.

Joe Gwinn

--------------------------

Yes, they failed not for shortage of fuel, but excess of seawater.
https://www.iaea.org/bulletin/learning-from-fukushima-daiichi-factors-leading-to-the-accident

The original estimate of possible tsunami wave height was too low.
“In Japan, they put up a heroic fight to get the electrical systems up and
running again, but it wasn’t enough,”

On 9/28/2023 4:10 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:uf4bic$3p2la$3@dont-email.me...
>
> In the US residential and non-industrial is usually split phase.  We
> have a single phase coming in, but its got a half tap at the service
> transformer for 120V nominal which is what most small to medium devices
> are designed to work with.  The 120V device can be wire from either leg
> to the half tap or neutral.  It makes for some interesting conversations
> with other do-it-yourselfers.  In the past there were house which only
> received half phase.  That is their service entrance was 120V nominal
> only.
>
> I may not have the terms exactly right, but that's the gist of it.  Like
> I said, it makes wiring in extra stuff interesting.
>
> -------------------------
> I remember the single drop and 60A screw-in fusebox. My father bought
> and remodeled old houses as a sideline, I think because it gave him
> problems he could solve with a hammer. He became pretty good at
> everything except 3-way light switches. I might have helped him more if
> my role hadn't been the nail.

The internet solved three way switches for me. The first time I saw a
circuit diagram I understood it.

>
> I would describe the US residential service as coming from a
> center-tapped transformer secondary winding with the center tap defined
> as neutral and grounded, thus the two ends of the secondary are 120V at
> 180 degrees apart, each is 120V to neutral and 240V to the other one. In
> the breaker box the connecting tabs to the two hot "phases"

I never said two phases, because its not. I said split phase. You are
literally half tapping one transformer. No different than multiple tap
transformers for power supplies or commercial sound systems.

are
> interleaved such that a double breaker connects to both for 240V, a
> single breaker to one for 120V, and the single breakers above and below
> it are the opposite phase so hopefully the electrician will more or less
> balance the loads between them as he works his way down. >
> Large loads such as the kitchen stove, water heater and clothes dryer
> use double breakers for 240V, wall outlets and room overhead lighting
> uses single ones for 120V, with the loads connected in series unlike the
> British loop that feeds from both ends. The wall outlets and switched
> ceiling lighting in each room are supposed to be on different breakers
> so the room can be lit with one while the other is shut off for
> maintenance. Back when I learned this the wall outlet circuits were
> wired for 20A and the lighting for 15A, with thinner wire. Sometimes a
> wall switch controls an outlet meant for a lamp, especially if there
> isn't an overhead ceiling lamp which could cause a leak in the insulation.

Are you saying all of that because you think I don't know it, or to help
somebody else who might be reading it? I was taught basic res/com
electrical at a young age by my dad. Before I learned refrigeration
(also at a young age). Its kind of a requirement to know basic
electrical before working on refrigeration equipment.

>
> There can be variations. My house has a separate meter and breaker box
> for the water heater which is billed at a lower rate. The main drop is
> 200A for the baseboard electric heating that was expected to be cheap
> nuclear in 1970. Rooftop solar uses a different meter that records power
> bought and sold by the customer separately. Determining the direction of
> AC is actually easy, a phone does it with voice to send and receive on a
> single pair of wires.

Now that's interesting. I have heard of farm shops with a residence and
a shop on different services, but some farm shops also have three phase
power. I've even seen well pumps on their own service, but two
different service on a single residence is a new one on me. When I
installed the sub panel on my shop I did install a meter, but its not a
separate service. I just installed the meter so I could track power
usage for tax purposes.

>
> Another difference from British practice is the fuse isn't in the plug,
> unless it's a built-in ground fault interrupter. It protects the house
> wiring, the appliance is its designers problem. Old fuse boxes were
> meant to have the center contact of the screw-in fuse hot so that once
> you unscrewed the fuse part way the more accessible threaded shell was
> safe to accidentally touch, which it wouldn't be with a ring main.
> Holders for cylindrical glass automotive fuses that can be used for 120V
> should be wired the same way, hot at the inner end.
>
> You can identify which breaker controls an outlet without a helper by
> plugging in a vacuum cleaner that vibrates the floor and can be heard
> from far away.

Ha Ha Ha... okay. Or I could use my circuit tracer. If its a panel
I've worked in before most of the breakers are marked with a paint
marker anyway.

>
> Although house wiring is sometimes considered two phase,

I never said two phase, and I've never heard anybody call it that. Well
nobody I consider knowledgeable. I said split phase. I do not know
that is technically a correct term, but its fairly descriptive, and I
have heard that term used before.

that term is
> formally reserved for separate circuits 90 degrees apart which was
> Tesla's original sine and cosine supply that created a smoothly rotating
> magnetic field to eliminate DC motor brushes. It required four
> distribution wires while 3 phases at 120 degrees apart could be done
> more cheaply with three and so replaced it.
>
> Industrial schematics label the phases and the wires themselves L1, L2
> and L3 (L=Line) ,and each succeeding wire connection takes an increasing
> numerical prefix, so that the wires coming from the 3 phase breaker may
> be 1L1, 1L2, 1L3, then 2L1, 2L2, 2L3 from a contactor to a motor, etc.
> The parallel lines that look like a capacitor are normally open relay
> contacts that should have their associated Control Relay (CR) indicated
> with a circle for the coil. The N-like variant is a normally closed
> contact, normally meaning powered off. This is called a ladder diagram
> because the power lines are usually vertical and the relay contacts and
> coils etc drawn horizontally between them.
>
> -jsw

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:uf7d6d$ek86$1@dont-email.me...

On 9/28/2023 4:10 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> I would describe the US residential service ...

-------------------

Once I started I decided to cover the basics, not just respond to you
specifically.

I've heard and seen the two lines called "phases" for lack of a better term.
https://www.homecontrols.com/homecontrols/content/Blog/CircuitBreakerConfig1.pdf

"Adjacent breakers, such as 1 and 3, and 4 and 6, are on opposite
“phases.” Breakers 1 and 6 derive power from L1, breakers 3 and
4, from L2."

On Friday, September 29, 2023 at 2:31:00 PM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:uf7d6d$ek86$1...@dont-email.me...

GE doesn't make quad breakers unless they just started . You will need to get a 20 Amp DP thin breaker & 2 20 Amp SP breakers & put a single pole on each side of the DP breaker . Some GE panels don't have the buss bars for thin breakers .
What you may want to think about is to put a sub panel where the car charger is & then pull the charger & the new circuits from the new sub panel .

animal

> On 9/28/2023 4:10 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> > I would describe the US residential service ...
>
> -------------------
>
> Once I started I decided to cover the basics, not just respond to you
> specifically.
>
> I've heard and seen the two lines called "phases" for lack of a better term.
> https://www.homecontrols.com/homecontrols/content/Blog/CircuitBreakerConfig1.pdf
>
> "Adjacent breakers, such as 1 and 3, and 4 and 6, are on opposite
> “phases.” Breakers 1 and 6 derive power from L1, breakers 3 and
> 4, from L2."