On Thu, 28 Sep 2023 23:30:44 -0400, Gerry <geraldrmiller@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

>On Thu, 28 Sep 2023 16:36:53 -0500, Snag <Snag_one@msn.com> wrote:
>
>>On 9/28/2023 5:23 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:uf2ge1$3b8kg$3@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>>> I know the odds of one of you being specifically familiar is slim, but
>>>> its worth a shot.
>>>
>>> Sorry, can't help. My house has a 200A service for no longer used
>>> electric heat so there's plenty of space for welding breakers, and the
>>> State's new registration surcharge for electric vehicles killed my
>>> interest in a PHEV. This spring our electric rate was $0.30 per KWH, now
>>> it's 'down' to $0.22. When the people across the street gave me
>>> permission to cut dead trees for firewood on their large property I
>>> installed a woodstove. I grew up with coal/steam heat and am used to a
>>> cool house in the morning.
>>>
>>
>> I cut a percentage of my firewood into what I call "overnighters" ,
>>and they can be some bigass chunks - my stove door opening is 11"x 11"
>>and the fire box is 24" long . I hate waking up to a cold house ...
>> Looking at predictions for a strengthening el nino I think I better
>>get more busier with the firewood collecting .
>> As far as Bob's breaker , I wish I could help . I've still got 5 open
>>slots in my 200A main panel , and I think 2 slots in the 100A sub panel
>>out in the shop . I educated guesstimated what I wanted to do then
>>doubled the size/breaker capacity . Good thing too .
>When we got on line in 1948, on electrician was getting a high
>percentage of the wireing jobs in an area where no one knew much about
>electrical equipment. His price for wireinng a house was based on one
>cieling light and one wall plug per room; stairway lighting control
>was a pull chain socket with a long string to the lower floor.
>Incoming electrical service was two wire 120V feeding a two pole
>disconnect with two 15A. fuses. Believe it or not, this was approved
>by the inspector (he retired shortly thereafter)
UNrer Rural Electrification in the early years that was STANDARD
PRACTICE.
When we bought out first family home in 1957 it had only one cieling
light in each room - with pullchain switch - and one wall outlet in
the kitchen with a 30 amp circuit. One 15 amp fuse for the kitchen and
one for the lights. My father, having had worked as an elrctrician,
made short work of that (and got his electricians jouirnyman's papers
shortly after) He then did a LOT of rural electrification here in
Ontario - but ty that thime a 60 amp 220 service was pretty much
"base" and the 2 wire distribution system using earth return was
pretty much eliminated except for a few private local power
distributors. Ontario Hydro had almost totally taken over the grid

On Thu, 28 Sep 2023 23:44:12 -0400, Gerry <geraldrmiller@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

>On Thu, 28 Sep 2023 21:37:38 +0100, David Billington <djb@invalid.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 28/09/2023 21:16, Richard Smith wrote:
>>> You are right - 230V single-phase from the local substation feeding
>>> the area.
>>> You went with Tesla's recommendation of 60Hz which is clearly "just
>>> right" for long-distance transmission. Where out 50Hz is
>>> unnecessarily slower and increases the size of transformers, etc.
>>>
>>> The only 110V we use in the UK isn't even "normal supply" - on
>>> building sites we have centre-tapped transformers so in-effect have
>>> -55V and +55V. Very safe.
>>> 230V is a bit too much for construction sites, for sure.
>>> Residual Current Devices make 230V power tools acceptable for domestic
>>> work.
>>
>>Not always 60Hz though after reading about the 1965 US blackout
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_1965 where it
>>mentions some areas as 25Hz, also
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency which gives a wide
>>variety of frequencies early on. IIRC it was mentioned UK Europe went
>>50Hz as it was better for motors and 60Hz in the US as arc lights were
>>more stable.
>I think it was aroun 1950 when Toronto and a large surrounding area
>switched over from 25 to 60 Hz. I remember visiting Mother'family and
>noticing how thier ligts all blinked. It cost the supplier a fortune
>to replace all the affected equipment!
1955 in Perth County Ontario. I remember when we got our new
electric clock because with the ols one "time really FLEW!!" New motor
onthe washing machine and well pump too, and a new refrigerator. All
the new stuff worked when we moved to St Jacobs. IOf I remember
correctly the old clock had come with us from Elora when we moved in
1953-54 but it is possible we only had a windup clock there and in
Conestoga before that.

On Fri, 29 Sep 2023 12:07:16 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:

>On Fri, 29 Sep 2023 07:28:11 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
><muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>"Gerry" wrote in message news:3lhchid8q6ln5r03p32od5do0atpb7jatj@4ax.com...
>>
>>I think it was aroun 1950 when Toronto and a large surrounding area
>>switched over from 25 to 60 Hz. I remember visiting Mother'family and
>>noticing how thier ligts all blinked. It cost the supplier a fortune
>>to replace all the affected equipment!
>>
>>-----------------------------
>>
>>https://www.djtelectricaltraining.co.uk/downloads/50Hz-Frequency.pdf
>>
>>I don't have references that explains why aircraft chose 400Hz to reduce
>>iron core weight and electric trains, the biggest early users, used 25Hz for
>>some good reason. Fukushima couldn't get enough Diesel generator and
>>external power for the reactor cooling pumps at their frequency or
>>supplement it with power at the other frequency, which the media
>>misunderstood and reported as a problem with incompatible plugs.
>
>Airplanes used 400 Hz because 400 Hz transformers are a fraction the
>size and weight of that at 60 Hz.
>
>Servo systems and magnetic amplifiers on ships also used 400 Hz, for
>the same reasons.
>
>Trains used 25 Hz because propulsion motor systems for trains were
>cheapest at that frequency, and soma worked at ~16 Hz. Lower
>frequency means lower motor speed means less gearing needed.
>
>Another constraint was the ever-improving magnetic properties of
>transformer core materials. The 400 Hz stuff was not practical in the
>early days of electric powered trains.
>
>As for Fukushima, I no longer recall what caused the cooling systems
>to fail, but it was not lack of diesel fuel, unless one thinks that
>the Japanese Government would have been unable to buy a tanker ship
>full of diesel fuel and station it on the wharf right in front of
>Fukushima.
>
>Hmm. I'm thinking that tsunami seawater inundation destroyed the
>generators and electrical equipment, and maybe the cooling pump
>electric motors.
>
>
>Joe Gwinn
another afvantage of 400hz for aircraft is higher RPM motors for
running Gyro instruments without vacuum. Also easier to filter
rectified DC in communication radios at higher frequency

Jim Wilkins <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
....
> The sine function is a one-dimensional representation of rotation at
> constant speed, such as the height of a bicycle tire valve when the wheel is
> coasting, neither gaining nor losing speed or energy. Thus it's the AC
> equivalent of a steady state. The cosine is the same, at a right angle to
> the sine, and the two together define and can recreate a circle, and as
> electrical waveforms they can transmit and fully reconstruct rotary motion
> theoretically without loss.
....

On a constant-forward-speed bicycle, tire valves follow cycloidal
paths. See first picture, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycloid .
For sine or cosine the wheel would need to be rotating in place.

"James Waldby" wrote in message news:uf8c26$nkgc$1@dont-email.me...

Jim Wilkins <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
....
> The sine function is a one-dimensional representation of rotation at
> constant speed, such as the height of a bicycle tire valve when the wheel
> is
> coasting, neither gaining nor losing speed or energy. Thus it's the AC
> equivalent of a steady state. The cosine is the same, at a right angle to
> the sine, and the two together define and can recreate a circle, and as
> electrical waveforms they can transmit and fully reconstruct rotary motion
> theoretically without loss.
....

On a constant-forward-speed bicycle, tire valves follow cycloidal
paths. See first picture, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycloid .
For sine or cosine the wheel would need to be rotating in place.

----------------------

That's true if your frame of reference is standing on the street. If it's
riding or repairing the bicycle my frame of reference applies. Since sine
and cosine are tied together usually only the sine is used to adequately
describe the waveform.

In digital radio the sine is the in-phase real component and the cosine the
imaginary quadrature component of a complex number, imaginary meaning the
dimension where the square root of -1 exists. Complex number math is a
perfect fit for this and allows an equation to contain both without them
interacting unless desired, such as to find the resultant angle. Here's a
non-mathematical description:
https://www.techtarget.com/searchnetworking/definition/QAM

The same analysis applies to brushless motors where the rotating magnetic
field can be synthesized electronically from battery DC.

"Joe Gwinn" wrote in message
news:vnsdhi9pb0j7kvp7d1hbst7khsnboikhc4@4ax.com...

Airplanes used 400 Hz because 400 Hz transformers are a fraction the
size and weight of that at 60 Hz.

---------------------------

I was looking for why they settled on that particular number. A friend who
worked in advanced aerospace at [...] researched aircraft 28V DC and found
that it had been chosen due to a discredited idea about corona discharge
leakage at the low pressure of high altitude.
One source mentioned that iron losses increased rapidly as frequency rose
above 400Hz. I tried higher frequency AC in a small Variac core to test it
for a speaker crossover filter and found the losses quite high at 400Hz. It
had clearly been value-engineered for 60Hz but not much higher.

https://www.powerstream.com/400hz-tutorial.htm
"Boeing 787 and Airbus A380
These modern aircraft have opted to do without the alternator speed
regulator required to keep the frequency stable. Therefore their frequencies
extend from about 360 Hz to 800 Hz depending on the speed of the engines."

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:uf9120$rc26$1@dont-email.me...

In digital radio the sine is the in-phase real component and the cosine the
imaginary quadrature component of a complex number, imaginary meaning the
dimension where the square root of -1 exists. Complex number math is a
perfect fit for this and allows an equation to contain both without them
interacting unless desired, such as to find the resultant angle. Here's a
non-mathematical description:
https://www.techtarget.com/searchnetworking/definition/QAM

The same analysis applies to brushless motors where the rotating magnetic
field can be synthesized electronically from battery DC.

------------------------------

A more practical application is calculating true, reactive and apparent
power, where complex numbers combine everything into one expression.

https://workforce.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Electronics_Technology/Book%3A_Electric_Circuits_II_-_Alternating_Current_(Kuphaldt)/11%3A_Power_Factor/11.02%3A_True%2C_Reactive%2C_and_Apparent_Power

On 9/29/2023 5:30 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> I've heard and seen the two lines called "phases" for lack of a better
> term.
[...]
>
> "Adjacent breakers, such as 1 and 3, and 4 and 6, are on opposite
> “phases.” Breakers 1 and 6 derive power from L1, breakers 3 and
> 4, from L2."

Here's a better term to solve that lacking: "leg". "Split phase" is
perfect for describing the service, but not so much for the conductors.
I like "leg": "A service has 2 legs of AC, 180 degrees apart ..." or
"In the panel, adjacent breakers are on different legs."

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message news:fNURM.195152$1B%c.69923@fx09.iad...

On 9/29/2023 5:30 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> I've heard and seen the two lines called "phases" for lack of a better
> term.
[...]
>
> "Adjacent breakers, such as 1 and 3, and 4 and 6, are on opposite
> “phases.” Breakers 1 and 6 derive power from L1, breakers 3 and
> 4, from L2."

Here's a better term to solve that lacking: "leg". "Split phase" is
perfect for describing the service, but not so much for the conductors.
I like "leg": "A service has 2 legs of AC, 180 degrees apart ..." or
"In the panel, adjacent breakers are on different legs."

---------------

Thanks.

On 9/29/2023 6:17 PM, animal1@psln.com wrote:
> On Friday, September 29, 2023 at 2:31:00 PM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:uf7d6d$ek86$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> GE doesn't make quad breakers unless they just started . You will need to get a 20 Amp DP thin breaker & 2 20 Amp SP breakers & put a single pole on each side of the DP breaker . Some GE panels don't have the buss bars for thin breakers .
> What you may want to think about is to put a sub panel where the car charger is & then pull the charger & the new circuits from the new sub panel .
>
> animal
>
>
>
>> On 9/28/2023 4:10 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>> I would describe the US residential service ...
>>
>> -------------------
>>
>> Once I started I decided to cover the basics, not just respond to you
>> specifically.
>>
>> I've heard and seen the two lines called "phases" for lack of a better term.
>> https://www.homecontrols.com/homecontrols/content/Blog/CircuitBreakerConfig1.pdf
>>
>> "Adjacent breakers, such as 1 and 3, and 4 and 6, are on opposite
>> “phases.” Breakers 1 and 6 derive power from L1, breakers 3 and
>> 4, from L2."
>

I suppose another sub panel is an option. I considered it. The main is
just outside on the other side of the garage. I might pull a small sub
off that instead.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 10:31:21 AM UTC-7, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 9/29/2023 6:17 PM, ani...@psln.com wrote:
> > On Friday, September 29, 2023 at 2:31:00 PM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> >> "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:uf7d6d$ek86$1...@dont-email.me...
> >
> > GE doesn't make quad breakers unless they just started . You will need to get a 20 Amp DP thin breaker & 2 20 Amp SP breakers & put a single pole on each side of the DP breaker . Some GE panels don't have the buss bars for thin breakers .
> > What you may want to think about is to put a sub panel where the car charger is & then pull the charger & the new circuits from the new sub panel ..
> >
> > animal
> >
> >
> >
> >> On 9/28/2023 4:10 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> >>> I would describe the US residential service ...
> >>
> >> -------------------
> >>
> >> Once I started I decided to cover the basics, not just respond to you
> >> specifically.
> >>
> >> I've heard and seen the two lines called "phases" for lack of a better term.
> >> https://www.homecontrols.com/homecontrols/content/Blog/CircuitBreakerConfig1.pdf
> >>
> >> "Adjacent breakers, such as 1 and 3, and 4 and 6, are on opposite
> >> “phases.” Breakers 1 and 6 derive power from L1, breakers 3 and
> >> 4, from L2."
> >
> I suppose another sub panel is an option. I considered it. The main is
> just outside on the other side of the garage. I might pull a small sub
> off that instead.
> --
> Bob La Londe
> CNC Molds N Stuff
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> www.avg.com

Bob , that would be your best bet . Surface mount the sub & you will always be able to have access for adding new circuits when needed . I don't remember what all is in the main panel , since its such a short run maybe doing a 100 A feed to the sub should cover the next 20 years down the line as far as having available power .
animal

Bob , that would be your best bet . Surface mount the sub & you will always
be able to have access for adding new circuits when needed . I don't
remember what all is in the main panel , since its such a short run maybe
doing a 100 A feed to the sub should cover the next 20 years down the line
as far as having available power .
animal

-------------------------

This has nice drawings of subpanel wiring:
https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2021/05/wiring-subpanel-main-lug-installation.html

On 9/30/2023 7:09 PM, animal1@psln.com wrote:
> On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 10:31:21 AM UTC-7, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 9/29/2023 6:17 PM, ani...@psln.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, September 29, 2023 at 2:31:00 PM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>> "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:uf7d6d$ek86$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>> GE doesn't make quad breakers unless they just started . You will need to get a 20 Amp DP thin breaker & 2 20 Amp SP breakers & put a single pole on each side of the DP breaker . Some GE panels don't have the buss bars for thin breakers .
>>> What you may want to think about is to put a sub panel where the car charger is & then pull the charger & the new circuits from the new sub panel .
>>>
>>> animal
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 9/28/2023 4:10 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>>> I would describe the US residential service ...
>>>>
>>>> -------------------
>>>>
>>>> Once I started I decided to cover the basics, not just respond to you
>>>> specifically.
>>>>
>>>> I've heard and seen the two lines called "phases" for lack of a better term.
>>>> https://www.homecontrols.com/homecontrols/content/Blog/CircuitBreakerConfig1.pdf
>>>>
>>>> "Adjacent breakers, such as 1 and 3, and 4 and 6, are on opposite
>>>> “phases.” Breakers 1 and 6 derive power from L1, breakers 3 and
>>>> 4, from L2."
>>>
>> I suppose another sub panel is an option. I considered it. The main is
>> just outside on the other side of the garage. I might pull a small sub
>> off that instead.
>> --
>> Bob La Londe
>> CNC Molds N Stuff
>>
>>
>> --
>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
>> www.avg.com
>
> Bob , that would be your best bet . Surface mount the sub & you will always be able to have access for adding new circuits when needed . I don't remember what all is in the main panel , since its such a short run maybe doing a 100 A feed to the sub should cover the next 20 years down the line as far as having available power .
> animal

BWHAHAHAHAHAHA... I ran a 100 amp sub to my "warehouse," thinking it
would be all I would ever need. I was a contractor at the time. I just
had a small office with an air conditioner, and a large warehouse with
lights. That was it. Way freaking over kill. I thought maybe I might
run my table saw or my welder once in a while, but not often. I had no
clue I'd be running a real working machine shop on that sub panel years
later. Now every time I get a few machines running I start doing math
in my head? What has hard starting current for that machine? What has
a tough cut that will amp up the load? (pun intended) If two or three
machines hit a peak current at the same time as I am running this lathe
will I trip the main? Some stuff I can control, but some I can't. The
air conditioners trip on when they want to. Same with the air
compressor. I may know in theory abotu what a hard roughing cut is
going to be runnign on one of the CNC machines, but the reality even if
I did I can't really plan around that. Okay, I have considered a soft
start circuit for the air compressor, and all of my CNC mills soft start
the spindles on VFDs, but its mental gymnastics some days.

I've never tripped the main for the shop, but I have tripped the main
for the house before. What I really need to do is upgrade the service
entrance for the house, but its about 450 feet of underground and a call
to Blue Stake. The panel is the cheap part of that upgrade. Blue Stake
is free, but cable and labor are expensive.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff