There's been quite a lot of responses since "thanks" message.
That there is this article
https://modelenginenews.org/techniques/crankshafts.html
implies I have unwittingly stumbled on something which is a big subject.
Thanks all for inducting me.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1frxhyn4v.fsf@void.com...

There's been quite a lot of responses since "thanks" message.
That there is this article
https://modelenginenews.org/techniques/crankshafts.html
implies I have unwittingly stumbled on something which is a big subject.
Thanks all for inducting me.

---------------------------------

Despite R.C.M being an interest group for hobby and small shop machinists I
tried to show you the substantial investment involved in building
useful-sized powered machinery, instead of luring you to join us. I had soon
banged into the limits of what I could build with a saw and drill press.
Several past posters here stubbornly resisted spending for a lathe and mill
and continually suffered the resulting frustration.

I was helping a non-machining inventor with the physics, chemistry and
engineering to copy the Rossi E-Cat and trying not to discourage him until I
found and showed him hard evidence it was either a scam or experimental
error.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer

On 2/13/2024 12:54 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
> You have proved to be a remarkable font of knowledge.
>
> Fancifully looking forward to tunnel-blasting rock (local is a very
> hard granite) I looked to the "stemming". What you put put in the
> collar of the drilled hole beyond the last charged blasting medium, to
> effect a seal intensifying the blasting effect.
>
> I know the one about if you try to press ceramic material down a hole
> (or die or mould) it "bridges" and "locks". So I see "stemming" would
> work in that way and is a good idea.
> Then with a gravel stemming all that happens when it does "let go" is
> a spray of grit - no heavy projectiles.
>
> So that seemed a motivation to make a small jaw-crusher (best type of
> crusher?) which can convert lumps of the granite into sharp gravel
> about 4mm to 5mm size (?) to pack down the hole filling to the last
> charge.
>
> Whatever - it's a project.
> I hear that a double-toggle crusher is best for very hard stone -
> which this granite is. Giving a pure crushing action.
> A single-toggle crusher with the eccentric shaft above the inlet for
> the rock produces a combined crushing+shear as the moving jaw also has
> up-and-down movement - which is reputed to increase throughput for
> softer rocks but produce extra wear for no advantage on hard rocks.
>
> Or does this not matter at small sizes?
>
> I was thinking about 5"/125mm to 6"/150mm inlet capacity.
> So quite a small machine.
> Big rocks could be split with "feathers" - drill a socket, put in the
> "feathers" and the wedge and split the rock.
> We are not talking of huge quantities here.
>
> Fanciful for sure. No-one at the mo. has a current blasting licence,
> for a start...
>
> But anyway - any experience?
> I was thinking welded steel construction.
> Apart from the jaws.
> Cast very hard metal?
> Cast "Hadfield Manganese Steel"?
> Structural steel plate with welded hard-facing?
>
> Regards,
> Rich Smith

I have not read this thread at all, but... I saw a few comments about
materials, and I was reminded of some "salvage" from rock boring
machines, and the teeth on the heads were some sort of carbide. Now,
wait. Before you lecture me that carbide is to fragile, bear in mind
that there are probably different forms of carbides. Just like there
are different forms of steel and even different forms of HSS steel.

Sorry, that's it. That's all I got. I wasn't that interested at the
time and flipped to another feed.

Yeah AR400 and AR500 are tough, but I seem to see a post in this thread
as I was clicking it read that dismissed those for this application.
Those would have been my first guess on the basic premise of this thread.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>
> Yeah AR400 and AR500 are tough, but I seem to see a post in this
> thread as I was clicking it read that dismissed those for this
> application. Those would have been my first guess on the basic premise
> of this thread.

I should have made it more of a question.
Many rock-crusher jaws seem to be made out of Hadfield manganese steel -
14%Mn. Intensely work-hardening. Guessing that as can be cast and get
the properties, enables the ridged surface which presumably helps the
breaking action.

Great hint about wear-resisting plates. IF took this anywhere, go see
if can blag offcuts. Don't put the cart before the horse - get a
working version going asap.

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> ...
> Yeah AR400 and AR500 are tough, but I seem to see a post in this
> thread as I was clicking it read that dismissed those for this
> application. Those would have been my first guess on the basic premise
> of this thread.

In the meantime, with needing to clear a small level accessed via couple
of risers of large rocks from previous blasting without using enough
blasting medium (as explained by ex-miner member), ordered
* "feathers"/splitting wedges - 14mm=9/16ths" yes, but also 10mm=3/8ths"
* smaller SDS battery / cordless SDS drill

The unusually small 10mm "feathers" - hopefully SDS drill can do 10mm
holes in the hard granite with cordless drill - whereas 14mm my instinct
says (and various online commentators say) that is a bit of an "ask".
Need is to break up blasted-out but not shattered boulders only inches
dimension apart from length up to 3ft - so can easily move to the raise
and lower down in cargo-net (tramming level below - cannot simply throw
down).

"Smaller" cordless SDS drill - needs to easily go into a bag which can
be carried down the ladders into the mine. Easy to put out-of-the-way
until needed. And cost - be something you could cope with loosing as
it's a bit of an envirnment down there.

Dust - instinct is to do bigger version of bottle used when mag-base
drill for steel in workshop. Use scriber pushed through cap of plastic
bottle like milk bottle, and spray enough water onto drill to make
drilled material into a slurry (as you also do with watering can when
using a gasoline "Stihl saw" to cut rock).

No idea how this will pan-out in reality.
Sometimes you have to lunge at something.
Whilst none of this is necessary, it leaves some of us lugging largish
boulders along the overhead level and lowering to tramming level.

Thanks everyone for hints.

Wear resistant plate for excavator buckets, chutes, etc...
Late much-appreciated Randy Zimmerman showed me welding replacement
wear-resistant plates into large excavator bucket when visiting Canada
15 years ago.

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1frxhyn4v.fsf@void.com...
>
> There's been quite a lot of responses since "thanks" message.
> That there is this article
> https://modelenginenews.org/techniques/crankshafts.html
> implies I have unwittingly stumbled on something which is a big subject.
> Thanks all for inducting me.
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> Despite R.C.M being an interest group for hobby and small shop
> machinists I tried to show you the substantial investment involved in
> building useful-sized powered machinery, instead of luring you to join
> us. I had soon banged into the limits of what I could build with a saw
> and drill press. Several past posters here stubbornly resisted
> spending for a lathe and mill and continually suffered the resulting
> frustration.
>
> I was helping a non-machining inventor with the physics, chemistry and
> engineering to copy the Rossi E-Cat and trying not to discourage him
> until I found and showed him hard evidence it was either a scam or
> experimental error.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer

A physicist I knew explained it is actually quite readily achieved to
get fusions - over a period of hours you can produce a few atomic events
- at vast consumption of power running the device which causes them.
FWIW.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1v86b62i0.fsf@void.com...

A physicist I knew explained it is actually quite readily achieved to
get fusions - over a period of hours you can produce a few atomic events
- at vast consumption of power running the device which causes them.
FWIW.
-------------------------------------

Several thousand volts is enough to overcome proton repulsion. So far the
Farnsworth Fusor has not progressed past a very inefficient small scale lab
demo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusor
https://makezine.com/projects/nuclear-fusor/
It's an example of what can be built with only a drill press.

Flying saucers powered by static electric ion repulsion are also possible,
on a small scale.

Rossi used a brazed copper water pipe reactor in which the hot hydrogen
could reduce the copper oxide scale inside to atoms and blow them into the
nickel. My first clue was that the copper found in the nickel had the
isotope ratios of the natural element. It should have been different if it
had been transmuted from nickel.

I had to be careful of which projects I agreed to work on. Some engineers
and inventors had inadequate training outside their specialty, or of the
practical aspects within it. Until I bought a house I was limited to what I
could make in my father's wood shop.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m14jdv7hl7.fsf@void.com...

In the meantime, with needing to clear a small level accessed via couple
of risers of large rocks from previous blasting without using enough
blasting medium (as explained by ex-miner member), ordered
* "feathers"/splitting wedges - 14mm=9/16ths" yes, but also 10mm=3/8ths"
* smaller SDS battery / cordless SDS drill

The unusually small 10mm "feathers" - hopefully SDS drill can do 10mm
holes in the hard granite with cordless drill - whereas 14mm my instinct
says (and various online commentators say) that is a bit of an "ask".
Need is to break up blasted-out but not shattered boulders only inches
dimension apart from length up to 3ft - so can easily move to the raise
and lower down in cargo-net (tramming level below - cannot simply throw
down).

"Smaller" cordless SDS drill - needs to easily go into a bag which can
be carried down the ladders into the mine. Easy to put out-of-the-way
until needed. And cost - be something you could cope with loosing as
it's a bit of an envirnment down there.

Dust - instinct is to do bigger version of bottle used when mag-base
drill for steel in workshop. Use scriber pushed through cap of plastic
bottle like milk bottle, and spray enough water onto drill to make
drilled material into a slurry (as you also do with watering can when
using a gasoline "Stihl saw" to cut rock).

No idea how this will pan-out in reality.
Sometimes you have to lunge at something.
Whilst none of this is necessary, it leaves some of us lugging largish
boulders along the overhead level and lowering to tramming level.

Thanks everyone for hints.

------------------------------------------
https://trowandholden.com/wedge-shim-sets.html
https://trowandholden.com/client_media/files/T_H%20WedgesShims%20HowTo...pdf

I found that my Makita rock drill cut satisfactorily fast in NH granite with
a 1/2" bit and bought the splitting sets to match. An adjustable nozzle
spray bottle of water was enough to control the dust without wasting the
limited water supply, with a bit of soap added to make it wet the fine
powder better.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1a5nn7ifb.fsf@void.com...

Great hint about wear-resisting plates. IF took this anywhere, go see
if can blag offcuts. Don't put the cart before the horse - get a
working version going asap.

--------------------------

Perhaps a demo model with long pipes for handles, which allow measuring the
required force.

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:uri09o$2hfo3$1@dont-email.me...
"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1v86b62i0.fsf@void.com...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusor

------------------------------

https://unitednuclear.com/chemicals-metals-c-69/deuterium-oxide-p-135.html

I've used Deuterium to tag molecules so they could be traced with MRI to
where in the body they were metabolized and disappeared.

On 2/26/2024 6:11 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Richard Smith"  wrote in message news:m1a5nn7ifb.fsf@void.com...
>
> Great hint about wear-resisting plates.  IF took this anywhere, go see
> if can blag offcuts.  Don't put the cart before the horse - get a
> working version going asap.
>
> --------------------------
>
> Perhaps a demo model with long pipes for handles, which allow measuring
> the required force.
>

In my dad's stuff is a chain cutter left over from his hardware store.
It's lever operated, and I seen have seen it cut through 3/8 grade 70
logging chain (along with other sizes and grades). We used to stock the
stuff in bulk. I don't think I could cut the same chain with my biggest
bolt cutters. Wouldn't it be nice to know what that chain cutter is
made of. It might not be suitable rock crushing, but it might make for
a good lead. I'd cut a piece off and let one of you guys send it out to
be x-rayed, but I have no idea how I would cut it. LOL. ;^) Well, and
someday it might be handy to have a chain cutter in the shop.

P.S. I haven't been ignoring you guys. I've been busy, and I haven't
had much to add.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 2/26/2024 1:30 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>
>> ...
>> Yeah AR400 and AR500 are tough, but I seem to see a post in this
>> thread as I was clicking it read that dismissed those for this
>> application. Those would have been my first guess on the basic premise
>> of this thread.
>
> In the meantime, with needing to clear a small level accessed via couple
> of risers of large rocks from previous blasting without using enough
> blasting medium (as explained by ex-miner member), ordered
> * "feathers"/splitting wedges - 14mm=9/16ths" yes, but also 10mm=3/8ths"
> * smaller SDS battery / cordless SDS drill
>
> The unusually small 10mm "feathers" - hopefully SDS drill can do 10mm
> holes in the hard granite with cordless drill - whereas 14mm my instinct
> says (and various online commentators say) that is a bit of an "ask".
> Need is to break up blasted-out but not shattered boulders only inches
> dimension apart from length up to 3ft - so can easily move to the raise
> and lower down in cargo-net (tramming level below - cannot simply throw
> down).
>
> "Smaller" cordless SDS drill - needs to easily go into a bag which can
> be carried down the ladders into the mine. Easy to put out-of-the-way
> until needed. And cost - be something you could cope with loosing as
> it's a bit of an envirnment down there.
>
> Dust - instinct is to do bigger version of bottle used when mag-base
> drill for steel in workshop. Use scriber pushed through cap of plastic
> bottle like milk bottle, and spray enough water onto drill to make
> drilled material into a slurry (as you also do with watering can when
> using a gasoline "Stihl saw" to cut rock).
>
> No idea how this will pan-out in reality.
> Sometimes you have to lunge at something.
> Whilst none of this is necessary, it leaves some of us lugging largish
> boulders along the overhead level and lowering to tramming level.
>
> Thanks everyone for hints.

I've got a couple SDS drills which are generally adequate for drilling
concrete, and with some patience the odd piece of rebar or rock in the
mix, but when I get to hard stuff I break out the 1 in Milwaukee spline
drive. I wouldn't want to carry that in a bag down a ladder deep into a
mine shaft.I don't like carrying it from the shop to the truck, but I
have carried it up and down a few ladders when it was the only tool that
would do the job. When I had to drill 60 year old well aged structural
concrete the SDS drills just didn't have the umph to push a big drill
very far very fast. That's why I bought the bigger 1" spline drive. I
was drilling conduit runs through two feet of structural concrete in an
old post office building built in the 1940s. I've never drilled
anything harder to drill. I think you are going to have to count on
fault lines to help if you plan to drill anything really hard with a
relatively easily bag toted "cheap" SDS drill.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 2/26/2024 11:04 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 2/26/2024 1:30 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>>
>>> ...
>>> Yeah AR400 and AR500 are tough, but I seem to see a post in this
>>> thread as I was clicking it read that dismissed those for this
>>> application. Those would have been my first guess on the basic premise
>>> of this thread.
>>
>> In the meantime, with needing to clear a small level accessed via couple
>> of risers of large rocks from previous blasting without using enough
>> blasting medium (as explained by ex-miner member), ordered
>> * "feathers"/splitting wedges - 14mm=9/16ths" yes, but also 10mm=3/8ths"
>> * smaller SDS battery / cordless SDS drill
>>
>> The unusually small 10mm "feathers" - hopefully SDS drill can do 10mm
>> holes in the hard granite with cordless drill - whereas 14mm my instinct
>> says (and various online commentators say) that is a bit of an "ask".
>> Need is to break up blasted-out but not shattered boulders only inches
>> dimension apart from length up to 3ft - so can easily move to the raise
>> and lower down in cargo-net (tramming level below - cannot simply throw
>> down).
>>
>> "Smaller" cordless SDS drill - needs to easily go into a bag which can
>> be carried down the ladders into the mine.  Easy to put out-of-the-way
>> until needed.  And cost - be something you could cope with loosing as
>> it's a bit of an envirnment down there.
>>
>> Dust - instinct is to do bigger version of bottle used when mag-base
>> drill for steel in workshop.  Use scriber pushed through cap of plastic
>> bottle like milk bottle, and spray enough water onto drill to make
>> drilled material into a slurry (as you also do with watering can when
>> using a gasoline "Stihl saw" to cut rock).
>>
>> No idea how this will pan-out in reality.
>> Sometimes you have to lunge at something.
>> Whilst none of this is necessary, it leaves some of us lugging largish
>> boulders along the overhead level and lowering to tramming level.
>>
>> Thanks everyone for hints.
>
> I've got a couple SDS drills which are generally adequate for drilling
> concrete, and with some patience the odd piece of rebar or rock in the
> mix, but when I get to hard stuff I break out the 1 in Milwaukee spline
> drive.  I wouldn't want to carry that in a bag down a ladder deep into a
> mine shaft.I don't like carrying it from the shop to the truck, but I
> have carried it up and down a few ladders when it was the only tool that
> would do the job.  When I had to drill 60 year old well aged structural
> concrete the SDS drills just didn't have the umph to push a big drill
> very far very fast.  That's why I bought the bigger 1" spline drive.  I
> was drilling conduit runs through two feet of structural concrete in an
> old post office building built in the 1940s.  I've never drilled
> anything harder to drill.  I think you are going to have to count on
> fault lines to help if you plan to drill anything really hard with a
> relatively easily bag toted "cheap" SDS drill.
>
>

I never even considered a cordless rotary hammer. Is there one that
will actually do real work? I do have a couple cordless hammer drills,
and I've worn out many over the years, but a real rotary hammer? I am
prepared to be impressed when you post the video of one blasting through
rock.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

Thanks for the soap suggestion

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:urik1i$2lufk$2@dont-email.me...

I never even considered a cordless rotary hammer. Is there one that
will actually do real work? I do have a couple cordless hammer drills,
and I've worn out many over the years, but a real rotary hammer? I am
prepared to be impressed when you post the video of one blasting through
rock.

Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--------------------------------

I bought an import corded hammer drill the size of a 1/2" wood drill and
found it useless in granite with 1/4" and 3/16" masonry bits. The 1" spline
drive Makita cuts faster with 1/2" bits.

Should arrive tomorrow.
Will see what it will do.

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:urijd1$2lpu7$1@dont-email.me...

In my dad's stuff is a chain cutter left over from his hardware store.
It's lever operated, and I seen have seen it cut through 3/8 grade 70
logging chain (along with other sizes and grades). We used to stock the
stuff in bulk. I don't think I could cut the same chain with my biggest
bolt cutters. Wouldn't it be nice to know what that chain cutter is
made of. It might not be suitable rock crushing, but it might make for
a good lead. I'd cut a piece off and let one of you guys send it out to
be x-rayed, but I have no idea how I would cut it. LOL. ;^) Well, and
someday it might be handy to have a chain cutter in the shop.

P.S. I haven't been ignoring you guys. I've been busy, and I haven't
had much to add.

Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--------------------------------
Spark test?

The discount store where I bought my Grade 43 and Grade 70 chain didn't want
to cut the 3/8" because they said it was wearing out their hydraulic chain
shear. I couldn't complain, a Gr70 3/8" x 20' length with hooks cost $2 per
foot, the 5/16" Grade 43 $1.50. I suspect they might have been barrels of
chain that failed proof test because it wasn't tagged but I won't load it
near its rating. My biggest crane scale and chainfall are 4000 Lbs.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m14jecdcjc.fsf@void.com...

Cast "Hadfield Manganese Steel"?

-------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangalloy
I'd never heard of it. From the description it sounds like an excellent
facing over a structure of more machinable steel that contains the bearings.

On 26/02/2024 23:22, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Richard Smith"  wrote in message news:m14jecdcjc.fsf@void.com...
>
> Cast "Hadfield Manganese Steel"?
>
> -------------------------
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangalloy
> I'd never heard of it. From the description it sounds like an
> excellent facing over a structure of more machinable steel that
> contains the bearings.

I wonder how well that would work, if you might have issues with
dissolution of the manganese into the substrate giving problems if in
the range quoted where it has very poor properties.

I may have a decent sized piece of this steel as some years ago while in
a scrap metal yard in Bristol UK getting some steel plate I spotted a
pile of what I was told were ore crusher knuckles, now I see them as
very worn hammer mill hammers. Pics I've seen show them with a
rectangular block working end where the one I bought looks like a
mushroom from wear, likely why they were in a scrap yard. I bought one
as a metal working stake.

"David Billington" wrote in message news:urj7jq$2q4qb$1@dont-email.me...

I wonder how well that would work, if you might have issues with
dissolution of the manganese into the substrate giving problems if in
the range quoted where it has very poor properties.

-------------------------
This suggests it can be welded (to other steel?) with the proper procedure:
https://ajmarshall.com/manganese-steel-6-things-you-need-to-know/

On 26/02/2024 23:59, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "David Billington"  wrote in message news:urj7jq$2q4qb$1@dont-email.me...
> I wonder how well that would work, if you might have issues with
> dissolution of the manganese into the substrate giving problems if in
> the range quoted where it has very poor properties.
>
> -------------------------
> This suggests it can be welded (to other steel?) with the proper
> procedure:
> https://ajmarshall.com/manganese-steel-6-things-you-need-to-know/

Thanks for that, as with many things the devil is in the detail.

"David Billington" wrote in message news:urjifa$2vvk4$1@dont-email.me...

On 26/02/2024 23:59, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "David Billington" wrote in message news:urj7jq$2q4qb$1@dont-email.me...
> I wonder how well that would work, if you might have issues with
> dissolution of the manganese into the substrate giving problems if in the
> range quoted where it has very poor properties.
>
> -------------------------
> This suggests it can be welded (to other steel?) with the proper
> procedure:
> https://ajmarshall.com/manganese-steel-6-things-you-need-to-know/

Thanks for that, as with many things the devil is in the detail.
--------------------------------
Your concern shows up when soldering to a gold-plated circuit board,
especially tacking a thin wire to an edge connector finger with thicker
plating. The solder needs to stay molten long enough to dissolve the gold,
otherwise a brittle lead-gold alloy forms and the joint can fall apart.

https://www.911metallurgist.com/blog/gold-alloys
"Gold alloys with a small percentage of lead is a hard, brittle, pale-yellow
substance, which can be crumbled with the fingers."

Hi Jim, David, everyone

Hadfield Manganese Steel is something very unusual. Not sure there is
anything similar. It's "out on a limb" - no incremental connection to
anything else?

It is apparently very very very work-hardening.
It only works up its properties is subject to extreme "attack".
eg.
crushing *hard* rock (apparently it can wear quickly if used on soft
rocks)
railway / railroad junctions / points / switches (went from weeks to
decades service-life)

I have handled Hadfield Manganese steel at the Hadfield plant, but
didn't much find out its properties.
I did try that with a very sharp hacksaw blade and deliberate slow
forward cutting strokes with no drag on the backstroke that did some
cutting (never let it work-harden). If my memory serves me right.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1r0gy9r04.fsf@void.com...

Hi Jim, David, everyone

Hadfield Manganese Steel is something very unusual. Not sure there is
anything similar. It's "out on a limb" - no incremental connection to
anything else?

It is apparently very very very work-hardening.
It only works up its properties is subject to extreme "attack".
eg.
crushing *hard* rock (apparently it can wear quickly if used on soft
rocks)
railway / railroad junctions / points / switches (went from weeks to
decades service-life)

I have handled Hadfield Manganese steel at the Hadfield plant, but
didn't much find out its properties.
I did try that with a very sharp hacksaw blade and deliberate slow
forward cutting strokes with no drag on the backstroke that did some
cutting (never let it work-harden). If my memory serves me right.

--------------------------------

I assume that with minimal equipment you could torch out rectangles and weld
drilled attachment lugs to the edges or back. Or copy a manufactured
crusher. Crushing one rock with the plates set up like a long handled
nutcracker could give you the forces to size the bearings and drive, with
one handle end on a bathroom scale and you and your gang on the other. It
might even crush enough to test your stemming concept.

The price of scales to measure large forces is decreasing. The 2000 Kg crane
scale cost me $89.99.