On 2/27/2024 2:48 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Hi Jim, David, everyone
>
> Hadfield Manganese Steel is something very unusual. Not sure there is
> anything similar. It's "out on a limb" - no incremental connection to
> anything else?
>
> It is apparently very very very work-hardening.
> It only works up its properties is subject to extreme "attack".
> eg.
> crushing *hard* rock (apparently it can wear quickly if used on soft
> rocks)
> railway / railroad junctions / points / switches (went from weeks to
> decades service-life)
>
> I have handled Hadfield Manganese steel at the Hadfield plant, but
> didn't much find out its properties.
> I did try that with a very sharp hacksaw blade and deliberate slow
> forward cutting strokes with no drag on the backstroke that did some
> cutting (never let it work-harden). If my memory serves me right.

My first thought for a work hardening heavy load steel was railroad
track. Didn't bother to look it up though.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:url9c1$3be9d$1@dont-email.me...

My first thought for a work hardening heavy load steel was railroad
track. Didn't bother to look it up though.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
------------------------------------
https://wsilverproducts.com/portfolio-item/deluxe-bed-frames/
Made from recycled railroad rails. Difficult but not impossible to machine.

On Tue, 27 Feb 2024 11:23:59 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
wrote:

>On 2/27/2024 2:48 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> Hi Jim, David, everyone
>>
>> Hadfield Manganese Steel is something very unusual. Not sure there is
>> anything similar. It's "out on a limb" - no incremental connection to
>> anything else?
>>
>> It is apparently very very very work-hardening.
>> It only works up its properties is subject to extreme "attack".
>> eg.
>> crushing *hard* rock (apparently it can wear quickly if used on soft
>> rocks)
>> railway / railroad junctions / points / switches (went from weeks to
>> decades service-life)
>>
>> I have handled Hadfield Manganese steel at the Hadfield plant, but
>> didn't much find out its properties.
>> I did try that with a very sharp hacksaw blade and deliberate slow
>> forward cutting strokes with no drag on the backstroke that did some
>> cutting (never let it work-harden). If my memory serves me right.
>
>My first thought for a work hardening heavy load steel was railroad
>track. Didn't bother to look it up though.
>
>--
>Bob La Londe
>CNC Molds N Stuff
I have no knowledge of the history of the two sections of rail in my
posession other than the fact that one came to our house with my
maternal grandfather - a blacksmith, who once worked for Henry Ford -
when he came to live with us in 1945; shortly thereafter he used a
hand hacksaw to cut it in half to gift a piece to a neighbour. The
other section came from a co-worker in 1972. this piece was taken to
work by second son where he used the band saw to slice off a couple of
paper weights for one of the office staff. Over the years I have
subjected both pieces to severe beatings with hammers up to six pounds
without noticeable dammage other than some cold chisel marks on the
older piece from cutting a section of expanded metal sheet.

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> On 2/27/2024 2:48 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> Hi Jim, David, everyone
>> Hadfield Manganese Steel is something very unusual. Not sure there
>> is
>> anything similar. It's "out on a limb" - no incremental connection to
>> anything else?
>> It is apparently very very very work-hardening.
>> It only works up its properties is subject to extreme "attack".
>> eg.
>> crushing *hard* rock (apparently it can wear quickly if used on soft
>> rocks)
>> railway / railroad junctions / points / switches (went from weeks to
>> decades service-life)
>> I have handled Hadfield Manganese steel at the Hadfield plant, but
>> didn't much find out its properties.
>> I did try that with a very sharp hacksaw blade and deliberate slow
>> forward cutting strokes with no drag on the backstroke that did some
>> cutting (never let it work-harden). If my memory serves me right.
>
> My first thought for a work hardening heavy load steel was railroad
> track. Didn't bother to look it up though.

Rails for railroads are simply hard.
Something like 0.6%C

Odd niche - last use of Bessemer converter in the UK was making rail
steels - the nitrogen introduced from blowing with air (20%Oxygen
80%Nitrogen) - which gives a for-free hardening increase without its
generally unacceptable deleterious effects being a problem in the
specific application of railroad rails.

In UK there was the realisation that with computer control you could
spray water on the head of the rail as it came off the mill, giving a
quench-hardening. Which presumably self-tempers as the heat from the
rest of the rail conducts up to the head of the rail.

Unforeseen problem - always be careful what you do and check it's all
for-real...

The rails didn't wear. Great...
Then we had a train crash where the rail shattered into many pieces on a
corner on a mainline out of London heading North.
Then it's found the entire network is riddled with cracks. Had to have
a national "go-slow" to keep stress off the rails and make any further
accidents low / survivable consequence.
Tawdry story emerges.
Railways have been "privatised". "Board" / Directors of private company
all financial types. No engineering representation.
The Ultrasonic Testing trains were picking up squillions of big cracks -
and there was a pause while they worked out what the problem was with
the U/T trains.
With no-one technical at the top of the company, no-one thought to take
a manual U/T set and a bucket of "goo" (couplant) to a few indicated
sites and see what / if anything is really there - as any technical
person would. "Schoolperson level" thought process.
The cracks were real and everywhere - the U/T trains were correct.

New phenomenon no-one had ever seen before or thought of - previously
the rails wore faster than they fatigued. No fatigue cracks.
New hardened rails - rate they fatigue is faster than they wear -
fatigue cracks.
Now we have to have rail-grinding trains - periodically grind the top of
the rails so any embyonic fatigue cracks are lost in the ginding swarf.

Orthodoxy says... That's way in the absence of anyone technical there
we inexorably went straight into a disaster despite indications
something was amiss.

Hope you enjoy the response.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1y1b52dhb.fsf@void.com...

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> On 2/27/2024 2:48 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> Hi Jim, David, everyone
>> Hadfield Manganese Steel is something very unusual. Not sure there
>> is
>> anything similar. It's "out on a limb" - no incremental connection to
>> anything else?
>> It is apparently very very very work-hardening.
>> It only works up its properties is subject to extreme "attack".
>> eg.
>> crushing *hard* rock (apparently it can wear quickly if used on soft
>> rocks)
>> railway / railroad junctions / points / switches (went from weeks to
>> decades service-life)
>> I have handled Hadfield Manganese steel at the Hadfield plant, but
>> didn't much find out its properties.
>> I did try that with a very sharp hacksaw blade and deliberate slow
>> forward cutting strokes with no drag on the backstroke that did some
>> cutting (never let it work-harden). If my memory serves me right.
>
> My first thought for a work hardening heavy load steel was railroad
> track. Didn't bother to look it up though.

Rails for railroads are simply hard.
Something like 0.6%C

Odd niche - last use of Bessemer converter in the UK was making rail
steels - the nitrogen introduced from blowing with air (20%Oxygen
80%Nitrogen) - which gives a for-free hardening increase without its
generally unacceptable deleterious effects being a problem in the
specific application of railroad rails.

In UK there was the realisation that with computer control you could
spray water on the head of the rail as it came off the mill, giving a
quench-hardening. Which presumably self-tempers as the heat from the
rest of the rail conducts up to the head of the rail.

Unforeseen problem - always be careful what you do and check it's all
for-real...

The rails didn't wear. Great...
Then we had a train crash where the rail shattered into many pieces on a
corner on a mainline out of London heading North.
Then it's found the entire network is riddled with cracks. Had to have
a national "go-slow" to keep stress off the rails and make any further
accidents low / survivable consequence.
Tawdry story emerges.
Railways have been "privatised". "Board" / Directors of private company
all financial types. No engineering representation.
The Ultrasonic Testing trains were picking up squillions of big cracks -
and there was a pause while they worked out what the problem was with
the U/T trains.
With no-one technical at the top of the company, no-one thought to take
a manual U/T set and a bucket of "goo" (couplant) to a few indicated
sites and see what / if anything is really there - as any technical
person would. "Schoolperson level" thought process.
The cracks were real and everywhere - the U/T trains were correct.

New phenomenon no-one had ever seen before or thought of - previously
the rails wore faster than they fatigued. No fatigue cracks.
New hardened rails - rate they fatigue is faster than they wear -
fatigue cracks.
Now we have to have rail-grinding trains - periodically grind the top of
the rails so any embyonic fatigue cracks are lost in the ginding swarf.

Orthodoxy says... That's way in the absence of anyone technical there
we inexorably went straight into a disaster despite indications
something was amiss.

Hope you enjoy the response.
------------------------------------
At least your trains won't hit icebergs or launch into space.

I mustn't tell tales of those I worked for, but engineers running a business
they created can be troublesome too. Almost every high tech company I worked
for dissolved somehow.

The problems remain hidden until they cause a disaster and public inquiry,
some of which I've studied to explore the decision process that allowed them
and the methods and instrumentation of failure analysis. Part of my career
was building custom instruments to measure something.

We also meander between private and public management of utilities. Both
have their inherent problems which I divide into efficiency vs fairness.
Here a citizens' cooperative is due to take over shopping for lowest
electric rates, though we can opt out. Initially they are $0.0018 below the
corporation's rate.