Hello all

Setting the scene:

"feathers" work well for splitting boulders so can be removed as
handleable rocks.
Lots of videos online eg. YouTube how to use them.

The ones I have:

http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/pics/240314_feathers_holes.jpg

from page
http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/minerals/240314_rocksplit/240314_rocksplit_drill_feathers.html
"Rock-split granite with "cordless" SDS drill and "feathers""

They work really well.
But these "10mm" feathers need a 14mm-dia socket.
The wedge is visibly oversized=overthickness for the feathers.
Saving just two mm of thickness would surely enable using a 12mm
socket. Useful saving on drilling (14mm -> 12mm)
(/ (expt 12 2) (float (expt 14 2))) ;; 0.7346938775510204
73% of vol drilled - and the impact is concentrated on the smaller
cutting tip.

The question:

How would you go about producting wedges about 2mm to 3mm thinner than
the current ones?

Doing something to the current wedges would be okay.

Making them anew with something like forging could be a good project.
If so what steel would you use? AISI1075? (C-Mn; 0.75%C). If so -
"spring-temper"?

We have something called "silver steel" which is "(centreless-?) ground
0.8%C steel" (ie. right on the eutectoid).

Always appreciated the range of knowledge here.

Regards,
Rich Smith

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1v856w8d2.fsf@void.com...

How would you go about producting wedges about 2mm to 3mm thinner than
the current ones?

-------------------------------------------
The wedges in my 1/2" set are 0.50" thick at the large end. When a set is
placed in a half inch drill gage hole the wedge freely enters about 1/4 its
length.

Without annealing them 2-3mm isn't an outrageous amount to grind off,
relative to the alternatives. With annealing it's easy on a milling machine
(again), and they are small enough to reharden without a proper forge. Mine
from T&H mushroom slightly with use, they definitely aren't brittle hard.

Do you plan to make or buy them? They should be a fairly easy shape to forge
from round stock which is more available than bar in higher carbon grades. I
made my first wedges from mild steel which doesn't hold up well, they do
need to be hardened. Wedges can be bandsawn from plate by shifting the guide
fence to half the angle and flipping the stock after each cut. The difficult
part may be finding hardenable steel bar stock in a small, inexpensive
quantity. Perhaps the worn cutting edge from a road plow or bucket loader?

I took a night class in blacksmithing to gain access to instruction, a
larger anvil and a better forge than my woodstove, which isn't really hot
enough. I have the parts for a forge but not a safe place to use it.

On 28/03/2024 17:53, Richard Smith wrote:

> Making them anew with something like forging could be a good project.
> If so what steel would you use? AISI1075? (C-Mn; 0.75%C). If so -
> "spring-temper"?

I'd probably use O1 ground flat stock, but only because it is readily
available. Can be cut on a bandsaw in as-it-arrives condition. Not
cheap, but you can sometimes find a deal.

Slowly heat to red-orange, soak for 15 minutes. Quench in hot oil, then
immediately temper well, don't let it cool from hot oil temperature: you
don't want it too hard - maybe an hour or two at 250 C. You'll still be
around 60 Rockwell C.

Not sure if you can spring temper O1. I wouldn't try it here.

That old favourite EN24T might work too, but it is hard to find except
in round bar.

> We have something called "silver steel" which is "(centreless-?) ground
> 0.8%C steel" (ie. right on the eutectoid).

It's great for hard stuff like knives or screwdrivers: but if you need
impact resistance you have to temper it so much it gets soft; or at
least that's my limited experience, ymmv. I know some people have used
it for punches.

Another problem is, again, it's only really available in round bar.

Peter Fairbrother

On Fri, 29 Mar 2024 17:40:58 +0000, Peter Fairbrother
<peter@tsto.co.uk> wrote:

>On 28/03/2024 17:53, Richard Smith wrote:
>
>> Making them anew with something like forging could be a good project.
>> If so what steel would you use? AISI1075? (C-Mn; 0.75%C). If so -
>> "spring-temper"?
>
>I'd probably use O1 ground flat stock, but only because it is readily
>available. Can be cut on a bandsaw in as-it-arrives condition. Not
>cheap, but you can sometimes find a deal.
>
>Slowly heat to red-orange, soak for 15 minutes. Quench in hot oil, then
>immediately temper well, don't let it cool from hot oil temperature: you
>don't want it too hard - maybe an hour or two at 250 C. You'll still be
>around 60 Rockwell C.
>
>Not sure if you can spring temper O1. I wouldn't try it here.
>
>That old favourite EN24T might work too, but it is hard to find except
>in round bar.
>
>> We have something called "silver steel" which is "(centreless-?) ground
>> 0.8%C steel" (ie. right on the eutectoid).
>
>It's great for hard stuff like knives or screwdrivers: but if you need
>impact resistance you have to temper it so much it gets soft; or at
>least that's my limited experience, ymmv. I know some people have used
>it for punches.
>
>Another problem is, again, it's only really available in round bar.

What about S7 steel:

..<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-rods-and-discs/>

..<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-bars/>

Or 1045 steel:

..<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-sheets-and-bars/>

..<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-rods-and-discs/>

Or 4340 steel:

..<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-4340-alloy-steel-rods/>

Joe Gwinn

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1v856w8d2.fsf@void.com...

The question:

How would you go about producting wedges about 2mm to 3mm thinner than
the current ones?

Doing something to the current wedges would be okay.

Making them anew with something like forging could be a good project.
If so what steel would you use? AISI1075? (C-Mn; 0.75%C). If so -
"spring-temper"?

We have something called "silver steel" which is "(centreless-?) ground
0.8%C steel" (ie. right on the eutectoid).

Always appreciated the range of knowledge here.

Regards,
Rich Smith

------------------------------

https://sheffieldgaugeplate.co.uk/blog/en8-vs-en9/

On 29/03/2024 18:33, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Mar 2024 17:40:58 +0000, Peter Fairbrother
> <peter@tsto.co.uk> wrote:

>> I'd probably use O1 ground flat stock, but only because it is readily
>> available.

> What about S7 steel:
>
> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-rods-and-discs/>
>
> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-bars/>
>
> Or 1045 steel:
>
> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-sheets-and-bars/>
>
> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-rods-and-discs/>
>
> Or 4340 steel:
>
> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-4340-alloy-steel-rods/>

All good choices.

Ah yes the wonderful McMaster-Carr. Unfortunately they only sell to
VAT-registered businesses in the UK, and shipping starts at about $300
(ouch!!).

You can get 4340 and S7 in the UK, but I don't know where you could get
suitable flats to make wedges in reasonable small quantities.

1045 is about the same as EN8, which is sold a bit more widely, but
again I don't know where to get suitable flats in small quantities.

EN9 would do better (quench-hardens, unlike EN8), but again I don't know
where to buy suitable flats.

Anyone?

The only reason I suggested O1 ground flat stock is because it is
readily available in the UK, eg on ebay, in small quantities. And it's
suitably strong and hard, it's obviously flat not round bar, and can be
had in the right size for about £40 for 500mm delivered. Not cheap, but
I don't know where to do better, especially if you include carriage.
There are occasional bargains to be had too.

80 x 12 x 500mm, £40.50
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/395054999101
80 x 10 x 500mm £38.82
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143198127946

Not sure how thick or wide you might want.

Actually, I'd buy wedges rather than make them, but ymmv.

Peter Fairbrother

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1v856w8d2.fsf@void.com...

Making them anew with something like forging could be a good project.
-----------------------------

I'm only a novice blacksmith. Much of my practice was in drawing out a round
bar into a long tapered one of square cross section. The idea is to compress
the whole width of the bar under the hammer, since flattening a solid round
section applies internal tension to areas protruding outside the hammer
strike that can open voids. If desired it can be rounded after tapering.

As thinning an area widens as well as lengthening it, the thickness had to
be reduced gradually and evenly on all sides, keeping a square cross section
and immediately correcting bending, twisting and the tendency to become a
rhombus. For me lengthening with a cross peen hammer caused more trouble
than it was worth.

The height of the anvil top affects how squarely you can consistently hit.
My anvil is too light for serious forging which I can't and don't need to do
anyway so I raised it to a more convenient bench height for less strenuous
work on sheet metal etc. It cured the temptation to hammer on the milling
machine table.

For a wedge my guess, based on pre-curving a single edged froe blade to end
up straight, is that the blank might have to be started with a square taper
before converting to a parallel sided wedge. Undoubtedly a real smith could
tell you more. Modeling clay is said to be good to practice with.

The wedge can be cut/broken from the bar by notching it all around on a
chisel standing upright in the square (Hardy) hole. The instructor was
amazed at how square and even the tenon on my attempt was, until I told him
I had used my milling machine. They have an ethic of using only traditional
methods, which is fine for artistic work but not the machine parts I wanted.

It was remarkable how many shapes the smith could form with only a hammer
and anvil. I didn't progress past drawing out a taper, stepping down a
shoulder and bending over the horn. My efforts at twisting can't be called
progress, or art.

"Peter Fairbrother" wrote in message news:uu923r$10hru$1@dont-email.me...
....
Actually, I'd buy wedges rather than make them, but ymmv.
Peter Fairbrother

-----------------------------------------
Their cost suggests Black Forest elves make them by hand. We're spoiled by
the economy of mass production, of items whose sales volume justifies it.
Custom hand work is still expensive to buy, or to obtain the equipment to
make. I justified mine because it let me control all of a project at work.

I bought my wedges and shims after trying to make them, mostly because the
shims/feathers are a difficult shape to hold while machining.

On 30/03/2024 13:23, Jim Wilkins wrote:

> Their cost suggests Black Forest elves make them by hand.

Eek!

We're spoiled
> by the economy of mass production, of items whose sales volume justifies
> it. Custom hand work is still expensive to buy, or to obtain the
> equipment to make. I justified mine because it let me control all of a
> project at work.
>
> I bought my wedges and shims after trying to make them, mostly because
> the shims/feathers are a difficult shape to hold while machining.

Are the insides of the feathers straight?

Hmm, a clamp couple of feet of 1/2" round bar in a good pipe vice, use a
thickish slitting saw on t'mill, cut off when you have them long enough,
reclamp, rinse and repeat..

noisy though :)

Peter Fairbrother

On 29/03/2024 18:33, Joe Gwinn wrote:

> What about S7 steel:

> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-bars/>

1/2" x 3" x 18" - $131.30 (but also 1/2 x 4" at $7.82 per inch, wot?)

> Or 1045 steel:
>
> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-sheets-and-bars/>

10mm x 60mm x 12" - $57.65
> Or 4340 steel:
>
> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-4340-alloy-steel-rods/>

Round bars only.

Hmmm, £40 for 80x12x500mm seems not that bad..

Peter Fairbrother

On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 12:55:23 +0000, Peter Fairbrother
<peter@tsto.co.uk> wrote:

>On 29/03/2024 18:33, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Mar 2024 17:40:58 +0000, Peter Fairbrother
>> <peter@tsto.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> I'd probably use O1 ground flat stock, but only because it is readily
>>> available.
>
>> What about S7 steel:
>>
>> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-rods-and-discs/>
>>
>> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-bars/>
>>
>> Or 1045 steel:
>>
>> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-sheets-and-bars/>
>>
>> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-rods-and-discs/>
>>
>> Or 4340 steel:
>>
>> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-4340-alloy-steel-rods/>
>
>
>All good choices.
>
>Ah yes the wonderful McMaster-Carr. Unfortunately they only sell to
>VAT-registered businesses in the UK, and shipping starts at about $300
>(ouch!!).

Ouch for sure.

>You can get 4340 and S7 in the UK, but I don't know where you could get
>suitable flats to make wedges in reasonable small quantities.
>
>1045 is about the same as EN8, which is sold a bit more widely, but
>again I don't know where to get suitable flats in small quantities.
>
>EN9 would do better (quench-hardens, unlike EN8), but again I don't know
>where to buy suitable flats.
>
>Anyone?
>
>
>The only reason I suggested O1 ground flat stock is because it is
>readily available in the UK, eg on ebay, in small quantities. And it's
>suitably strong and hard, it's obviously flat not round bar, and can be
>had in the right size for about £40 for 500mm delivered. Not cheap, but
>I don't know where to do better, especially if you include carriage.
>There are occasional bargains to be had too.
>
>80 x 12 x 500mm, £40.50
><https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/395054999101>
>80 x 10 x 500mm £38.82
><https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143198127946>
>
Well, I don't know UK markets, but I would expect that there are
European makers of these steels by one name or another. And they may
have an even better answer.

As Jim W says, hot forging is probably the better way to make these
feathers. I think that most of the other alloys can be forged and
maybe forge welded as well, but didn't really dig into it. Maybe the
solution is to choose and bring alloy steel rod to a local blacksmith.

Joe Gwinn

On 30/03/2024 12:55, Peter Fairbrother wrote:
> On 29/03/2024 18:33, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Mar 2024 17:40:58 +0000, Peter Fairbrother
>> <peter@tsto.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> I'd probably use O1 ground flat stock, but only because it is readily
>>> available.
>
>> What about S7 steel:
>>
>> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-rods-and-discs/>
>>
>>
>> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-bars/>
>>
>>
>> Or 1045 steel:
>>
>> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-sheets-and-bars/>
>>
>>
>> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-rods-and-discs/>
>>
>>
>> Or 4340 steel:
>>
>> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-4340-alloy-steel-rods/>
>>
>
>
> All good choices.
>
> Ah yes the wonderful McMaster-Carr. Unfortunately they only sell to
> VAT-registered businesses in the UK, and shipping starts at about $300
> (ouch!!).
>
> You can get 4340 and S7 in the UK, but I don't know where you could
> get suitable flats to make wedges in reasonable small quantities.
>
> 1045 is about the same as EN8, which is sold a bit more widely, but
> again I don't know where to get suitable flats in small quantities.
>
> EN9 would do better (quench-hardens, unlike EN8), but again I don't
> know where to buy suitable flats.
>
> Anyone?
>
>
> The only reason I suggested O1 ground flat stock is because it is
> readily available in the UK, eg on ebay, in small quantities. And it's
> suitably strong and hard, it's obviously flat not round bar, and can
> be had in the right size for about £40 for 500mm delivered. Not cheap,
> but I don't know where to do better, especially if you include
> carriage. There are occasional bargains to be had too.
>
> 80 x 12 x 500mm, £40.50
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/395054999101
> 80 x 10 x 500mm £38.82
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143198127946
>
> Not sure how thick or wide you might want.
>
>
> Actually, I'd buy wedges rather than make them, but ymmv.
>
>
> Peter Fairbrother

I've got some 6mm EN8 plate that I could part with some bits of. I've
had items profiled out of it so some sections aren't much use for much
else and would easily make the wedges I expect.

"Peter Fairbrother" wrote in message news:uu999l$128v0$1@dont-email.me...

Are the insides of the feathers straight?

Hmm, a clamp couple of feet of 1/2" round bar in a good pipe vice, use a
thickish slitting saw on t'mill, cut off when you have them long enough,
reclamp, rinse and repeat..

noisy though :)

Peter Fairbrother
--------------------------------
No, they are tapered to match their side of the wedge, and the end that
protrudes from the hole is quite thin. I think chatter would be a problem
unless they were supported near the cut, and extended plus lowered in steps
as it proceeds. Or they could be slit from mild steel rod stock in a jig
that supports them at the angle.

They need to apply pressure evenly over their length, else the rock will
just chip off at the hole mouth.
https://trowandholden.com/wedge-shim-sets.html

On 30/03/2024 16:25, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Peter Fairbrother"  wrote in message news:uu999l$128v0$1@dont-email.me...
>
> Are the insides of the feathers straight?
[...]
> No, they are tapered to match their side of the wedge, and the end that
> protrudes from the hole is quite thin. I think chatter would be a
> problem unless they were supported near the cut, and extended plus
> lowered in steps as it proceeds. Or they could be slit from mild steel
> rod stock in a jig that supports them at the angle.
>
> They need to apply pressure evenly over their length, else the rock will
> just chip off at the hole mouth.
> https://trowandholden.com/wedge-shim-sets.html
>

OK, a bandsaw then shaping in a fixture on the mill then.

Matey next door says they can be made so that either the bottom is
slightly thicker than a simple wedge, or the wedge is thinned at the
top, so that the maximum pressure is at the bottom. I don't know whether
that is necessary, trowandholden don't seem to do it, some others do.

I was watching a video about Hilti capping rock, seems easy enough, if a
little energetic.

You don't need a license to buy Hilti cartridges in the UK, though maybe
you shouldn't if you have a criminal record.

Peter Fairbrother

On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 12:25:20 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
<muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Peter Fairbrother" wrote in message news:uu999l$128v0$1@dont-email.me...
>
>Are the insides of the feathers straight?
>
>Hmm, a clamp couple of feet of 1/2" round bar in a good pipe vice, use a
>thickish slitting saw on t'mill, cut off when you have them long enough,
>reclamp, rinse and repeat..
>
>noisy though :)
>
>Peter Fairbrother
>--------------------------------
>No, they are tapered to match their side of the wedge, and the end that
>protrudes from the hole is quite thin. I think chatter would be a problem
>unless they were supported near the cut, and extended plus lowered in steps
>as it proceeds. Or they could be slit from mild steel rod stock in a jig
>that supports them at the angle.

It occurs to me that there is a standard way to hold such awkward
items for machining: embed it in solid epoxy, which is later burned
off.

Or, soft-solder the workpiece to a larger bit of mild steel. When
complete, unsolder and shake the excess off - the remaining solder
will lubricate things.

>They need to apply pressure evenly over their length, else the rock will
>just chip off at the hole mouth.
><https://trowandholden.com/wedge-shim-sets.html>

Do we have any idea what kind of steel they use?

Joe Gwinn

On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 17:53:45 +0000
Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:

>The question:
>
>How would you go about producting wedges about 2mm to 3mm thinner than
>the current ones?
>
>Doing something to the current wedges would be okay.

These aren't that expensive via Amazon:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=rock+splitting+wedges&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_2_8

Think I'd try clamping the pieces together and have at them with a
small angle grinder. Doubt if the outside being slightly rough would
hurt anything. Whether losing a couple millimeters on the outside and
probably some of the wedge causes them to wear out faster is the
question...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

"Joe Gwinn" wrote in message
news:9fkg0j9s55p1vamdq8rq19lq3gaq6i7j34@4ax.com...
On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 12:25:20 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
<muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
>"Peter Fairbrother" wrote in message news:uu999l$128v0$1@dont-email.me...

Do we have any idea what kind of steel they use?
Joe Gwinn
----------------------------
The feathers are soft and flexible, the wedge harder, such that it puts
scrape marks on the feathers but not vice versa. The wedge heads have become
slightly mushroomed. The feathers are all warped from use, I'd have to
carefully straighten some to reconstruct the original geometry.

The feathers for the 5x 1/2" set and the single 3/4" were all made from 3/8"
round rod. The large end is a half circle. I chose 1/2" after finding
several new 1/2" spline drive bits from an auction in a second hand tool
store (that's closing).

I suppose the feathers could be cut freehand endwise on an upright bandsaw
if the stock was tightly clamped in an inverted toolmakers vise to keep it
from twisting when the blade was off center, then beltsanded to smooth
ridges. I bandsawed some oak slab scrap into a batch of wedges freehand to
pencil lines that came out straight and smooth enough for the carpenter
neighbor to think I bought them until sunshine revealed the saw marks.

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:uu9t7t$173fs$1@dont-email.me...

The feathers for the 5x 1/2" set and the single 3/4" were all made from 3/8"
round rod. The large end is a half circle. I chose 1/2" after finding
several new 1/2" spline drive bits from an auction in a second hand tool
store (that's closing).

I suppose the feathers could be cut freehand endwise on an upright bandsaw
if the stock was tightly clamped in an inverted toolmakers vise to keep it
from twisting when the blade was off center, then beltsanded to smooth
ridges.
---------------------------------------
On closer examination they appear to have been diagonally split lengthwise
with a horizontal bandsaw, the scratches slightly angled too, leaving the
large end about 1/4" thick, plus or minus several hairs.

I think a horizontal bandsaw plus a drill press could make this fixture:

Perhaps two short end blocks drilled 11/32" through and 3/8 part way, to
axially clamp the 3/8" OD blank. The space between them allows inserting and
removing the part. The bandsaw cuts its own slot. The shutoff tab is
extended to stop the saw before it slices the fixture base, thus the
slightly angled kerf marks. The base might be tilted closer to the blade
angle. Turn the vise to the diagonal angle.

Initial setup centers the blade over the middle of the blank, afterwards
lower the blade into the slot before tightening the vise.

To simplify machining the moving end clamp block could be on a pivot arm
instead of a slot, which also moves the toggle clamp away from the blade. An
eccentric pivot bushing would permit small angular error correction.

On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 16:37:50 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
<muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Joe Gwinn" wrote in message
>news:9fkg0j9s55p1vamdq8rq19lq3gaq6i7j34@4ax.com...
>On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 12:25:20 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
><muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
>>"Peter Fairbrother" wrote in message news:uu999l$128v0$1@dont-email.me...
>
>Do we have any idea what kind of steel they use?
>Joe Gwinn
>----------------------------
>The feathers are soft and flexible, the wedge harder, such that it puts
>scrape marks on the feathers but not vice versa. The wedge heads have become
>slightly mushroomed. The feathers are all warped from use, I'd have to
>carefully straighten some to reconstruct the original geometry.
>
>The feathers for the 5x 1/2" set and the single 3/4" were all made from 3/8"
>round rod. The large end is a half circle. I chose 1/2" after finding
>several new 1/2" spline drive bits from an auction in a second hand tool
>store (that's closing).
>
>I suppose the feathers could be cut freehand endwise on an upright bandsaw
>if the stock was tightly clamped in an inverted toolmakers vise to keep it
>from twisting when the blade was off center, then beltsanded to smooth
>ridges. I bandsawed some oak slab scrap into a batch of wedges freehand to
>pencil lines that came out straight and smooth enough for the carpenter
>neighbor to think I bought them until sunshine revealed the saw marks.

If one can solder the wedge to something solid, all manner of
machining operations become easy.

Use eutectic tin-lead solder for lowest melting point.

Or just forge them. My bet is that the commercial wedges are made of
1045 steel (EN9 in the UK), quenched and tempered, with wedges
tempered harder than the feathers.

Probably in Roman times, they were made of wrought iron.

Joe Gwinn

"Joe Gwinn" wrote in message
news:rd5h0jhkgaok22e5ptujf4es6qtlo2dog1@4ax.com...

Probably in Roman times, they were made of wrought iron.

Joe Gwinn
--------------------------------------
Or bronze, the Romans were masters of it.
https://www.valvemagazine.com/articles/ancient-roman-valves

Like copper today none was left lying around.
https://www.atouchofrome.com/pantheon-explained-page-2.html#melting-of-the-pantheon-bronze-roof-trusses

The little remaining evidence of ancient tools suggests that they didn't
change much from antiquity until the Industrial Revolution, look in an
antique shop for examples. One difference is that screws were very rare
until clock makers needed them.

Holtzapffel Book II, Chapter XXVI describes the history of laying out and
forming threads by simple methods before the modern screw-cutting lathe was
introduced. I have an old die stock with grooves for gradually pressing
threads into a rod by tightening the two halves together that appear to have
been cut with a chisel.

A great advance was a lathe with a sliding spindle with several thread
pitches cut on it, so it would advance the work past a stationary cutter at
the pitch selected by lowering a follower into one of the spindle threads.

On 30/03/2024 22:50, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 16:37:50 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
> <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Joe Gwinn" wrote in message
>> news:9fkg0j9s55p1vamdq8rq19lq3gaq6i7j34@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 12:25:20 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
>> <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> "Peter Fairbrother" wrote in message news:uu999l$128v0$1@dont-email.me...
>> Do we have any idea what kind of steel they use?
>> Joe Gwinn
>> ----------------------------
>> The feathers are soft and flexible, the wedge harder, such that it puts
>> scrape marks on the feathers but not vice versa. The wedge heads have become
>> slightly mushroomed. The feathers are all warped from use, I'd have to
>> carefully straighten some to reconstruct the original geometry.
>>
>> The feathers for the 5x 1/2" set and the single 3/4" were all made from 3/8"
>> round rod. The large end is a half circle. I chose 1/2" after finding
>> several new 1/2" spline drive bits from an auction in a second hand tool
>> store (that's closing).
>>
>> I suppose the feathers could be cut freehand endwise on an upright bandsaw
>> if the stock was tightly clamped in an inverted toolmakers vise to keep it
> >from twisting when the blade was off center, then beltsanded to smooth
>> ridges. I bandsawed some oak slab scrap into a batch of wedges freehand to
>> pencil lines that came out straight and smooth enough for the carpenter
>> neighbor to think I bought them until sunshine revealed the saw marks.
> If one can solder the wedge to something solid, all manner of
> machining operations become easy.
>
> Use eutectic tin-lead solder for lowest melting point.
>
> Or just forge them. My bet is that the commercial wedges are made of
> 1045 steel (EN9 in the UK), quenched and tempered, with wedges
> tempered harder than the feathers.
>
> Probably in Roman times, they were made of wrought iron.
>
> Joe Gwinn

I was thinking along the lines of forging if I wanted to make a number
of these. It would be fairly simple to make some forging dies for my
flypress and them forge them down from square or round stock.

"David Billington" wrote in message news:uua9p1$19vvs$1@dont-email.me...

I was thinking along the lines of forging if I wanted to make a number
of these. It would be fairly simple to make some forging dies for my
flypress and them forge them down from square or round stock.
--------------------------------

When we sore-armed students drooled over the smith's trip hammer he warned
us that one needs to understand manual forging very well first, as things
can go wrong awfully fast with it.

After considering the cost and time for the alternatives I'll buy more if I
need them. My spring shop time will likely be spent on upgrading the
capacity and durability of the sawmill. The blade guides are skateboard
bearings from a smaller previous sawmill and don't last long at 90 km/h.

On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 20:07:00 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
<muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Joe Gwinn" wrote in message
>news:rd5h0jhkgaok22e5ptujf4es6qtlo2dog1@4ax.com...
>
>Probably in Roman times, they were made of wrought iron.
>
>Joe Gwinn
>--------------------------------------
>Or bronze, the Romans were masters of it.
><https://www.valvemagazine.com/articles/ancient-roman-valves>

Simple and reliable.

And the modern names of many plumbing items are based on the Latin
terms, and are more descriptive than politically correct.

>Like copper today none was left lying around.
><https://www.atouchofrome.com/pantheon-explained-page-2.html#melting-of-the-pantheon-bronze-roof-trusses>

Yes, and also true of the Egyptians who preceded the Romans. Very few
bronze tools were found around the pyramids and the like.

Iron was too expensive to use for anything but knives and swords for
centuries, so bronze endured. I don't know the exact historical
sequence, but steel (versus cast iron) kept getting cheaper.

Bronze knives cannot be made sharp enough for many things, so the
Egyptians used obsidian knives, and had a guild devoted to production
and use of obsidian knives, in particular for preparing the dead for
mummification.

>The little remaining evidence of ancient tools suggests that they didn't
>change much from antiquity until the Industrial Revolution, look in an
>antique shop for examples. One difference is that screws were very rare
>until clock makers needed them.
>
>Holtzapffel Book II, Chapter XXVI describes the history of laying out and
>forming threads by simple methods before the modern screw-cutting lathe was
>introduced. I have an old die stock with grooves for gradually pressing
>threads into a rod by tightening the two halves together that appear to have
>been cut with a chisel.

I think I read that as well.

I've read many books on how screw threads were cut in the old days
when there was a screwcutters guild. Think olive and wine presses,
and later the printing press.

Most threads were hand cut into wooden rods and nuts, usually with a
specially shaped chisel, often following a string carefully spiral
wrapped around the rod to be threaded.

The nut would usually be cut by making a metal tap, by the process for
threading a rod. There were many ways.

>A great advance was a lathe with a sliding spindle with several thread
>pitches cut on it, so it would advance the work past a stationary cutter at
>the pitch selected by lowering a follower into one of the spindle threads.

Yes. What followed was the classical change-gear thread cutting lathe
of Henry Maudslay, circa 1800, which is the prototype for all
subsequent toolroom manual lathes to the present day, more than two
centuries later. While digital control is now replacing many of the
gear trains in modern lathes, most of Maudslay's approach endures.

..<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Maudslay>

Joe Gwinn

Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> writes:

> On Fri, 29 Mar 2024 17:40:58 +0000, Peter Fairbrother
> <peter@tsto.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 28/03/2024 17:53, Richard Smith wrote:
>>
>>> Making them anew with something like forging could be a good project.
>>> If so what steel would you use? AISI1075? (C-Mn; 0.75%C). If so -
>>> "spring-temper"?
>>
>>I'd probably use O1 ground flat stock, but only because it is readily
>>available. Can be cut on a bandsaw in as-it-arrives condition. Not
>>cheap, but you can sometimes find a deal.
>>
>>Slowly heat to red-orange, soak for 15 minutes. Quench in hot oil, then
>>immediately temper well, don't let it cool from hot oil temperature: you
>>don't want it too hard - maybe an hour or two at 250 C. You'll still be
>>around 60 Rockwell C.
>>
>>Not sure if you can spring temper O1. I wouldn't try it here.
>>
>>That old favourite EN24T might work too, but it is hard to find except
>>in round bar.
>>
>>> We have something called "silver steel" which is "(centreless-?) ground
>>> 0.8%C steel" (ie. right on the eutectoid).
>>
>>It's great for hard stuff like knives or screwdrivers: but if you need
>>impact resistance you have to temper it so much it gets soft; or at
>>least that's my limited experience, ymmv. I know some people have used
>>it for punches.
>>
>>Another problem is, again, it's only really available in round bar.
>
> What about S7 steel:
>
> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-rods-and-discs/>
>
> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/oversized-shock-resistant-s7-tool-steel-bars/>
>
> Or 1045 steel:
>
> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-sheets-and-bars/>
>
> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-1045-carbon-steel-rods-and-discs/>
>
> Or 4340 steel:
>
> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/metals/steel~/high-strength-4340-alloy-steel-rods/>
>
>
> Joe Gwinn

I think 4340 is EN24 which Peter F mentioned. C-Cr-Mo-Ni steel.
Through-hardens readily - can quench in oil.

Minded to find some C-steel and see how it pans-out.
Would learn a lot along the way for sure - before starting with
higher-value material.

Peter F's "O1" steel sounds interesting.
C-Cr-W-V steel.
Description makes it sound like created by smart pragmatists.

Thanks for correcting me that EN8 is 0.4%C steel.
So long since worked with these.

All of you - thanks a lot, as always.