David Billington <djb@invalid.com> writes:

>>>> <lots of helpful answers>

>
> I've got some 6mm EN8 plate that I could part with some bits of. I've
> had items profiled out of it so some sections aren't much use for much
> else and would easily make the wedges I expect.

Hi David
If easy to send. Sounds perfect. Would reimburse postage.
On my website
weldsmith.co.uk
there is a contact form.
To first "handshake".
Typically you'd pass me a phone number or email address.
Rich Smith

Hi all.
Thanks for helping me develop thoughts.
To expense-wise putting the horse before the cart, maybe get hold of
some spring steel from eg. a truck, and either grind direct to shape or
forge and retreat.

Also, got some more wedges on-order, so might take 3 wedges and try
grinding a millimetre off either side of the wedge and see how they
perform.
Am used to using an angle-grinder.
Good strategy for removing a fixed amount can be to gash with a slitting
disk to depth you want to remove (in this case 1mm) - you can measure
accurately how deep a gash is - then generally grind until you just
remove the gashes.
Knowing where you are going with it, you cna control grinding rates and
temperatures - don't change the material.

Smooth - finish by gliding on the side of the disk... Well used to
doing this to make tight joints / flat surfaces.

Will see where all this takes me.

On Sun, 31 Mar 2024 22:30:05 +0100
Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:

<snip>
>Also, got some more wedges on-order, so might take 3 wedges and try
>grinding a millimetre off either side of the wedge and see how they
>perform.
>Am used to using an angle-grinder.
>Good strategy for removing a fixed amount can be to gash with a slitting
>disk to depth you want to remove (in this case 1mm) - you can measure
>accurately how deep a gash is - then generally grind until you just
>remove the gashes.

It would be helpful if you had a way to chuck and spin them from the
end providing they spun somewhat true. Then you could just work the
angle grinder back and forth along them as they turned. Yeah, I know...
probably not feasible 🙄

Having the desired hole size in a piece of wood laid nearby and testing
off/on would likely be easiest...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m15xx2um1u.fsf@void.com...

Hi all.
Thanks for helping me develop thoughts.
To expense-wise putting the horse before the cart, maybe get hold of
some spring steel from eg. a truck, and either grind direct to shape or
forge and retreat.

----------------------------------------

The problem with leaf springs is thickness, plus used ones may have cracks.
You could anneal it and saw out the wedges, or just plasma cut them, but
assembling a stack could be difficult. Brazing might work as long as
hardening didn't melt it.
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/04/01/how-to-heat-treat-5160/

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1jzliun94.fsf@void.com...

Minded to find some C-steel and see how it pans-out.
Would learn a lot along the way for sure - before starting with
higher-value material.

Peter F's "O1" steel sounds interesting.
C-Cr-W-V steel.
Description makes it sound like created by smart pragmatists.

-----------------------------------

I might check local fabricators or heavy equipment repair shops for scrap
AR400 or similar to sell and see if my plasma cutter can handle it. Some
jackhammer bits have a similar cross section, but are wider.

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:uuekcs$2ij70$1@dont-email.me...

I might check local fabricators or heavy equipment repair shops for scrap
AR400 or similar to sell and see if my plasma cutter can handle it. Some
jackhammer bits have a similar cross section, but are wider.

-------------------------------------
Do you have snow plows over there?

A neighbor is welding a new cutting edge onto the bucket of his tractor.
It's a strip of high carbon steel 1/2" thick, a shorter cutoff from wear
edge repair material for Fisher snow plow blades. It's not drilled or
painted so it might be a cheaper substitute of hot rolled steel.
https://www.etrailer.com/Snow-Plow-Parts/SAM/3371301300.html?feed=npn&gad_source=1

On Mon, 1 Apr 2024 11:37:33 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
<muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1jzliun94.fsf@void.com...
>
>Minded to find some C-steel and see how it pans-out.
>Would learn a lot along the way for sure - before starting with
>higher-value material.
>
>Peter F's "O1" steel sounds interesting.
>C-Cr-W-V steel.
>Description makes it sound like created by smart pragmatists.
>
>-----------------------------------
>
>I might check local fabricators or heavy equipment repair shops for scrap
>AR400 or similar to sell and see if my plasma cutter can handle it. Some
>jackhammer bits have a similar cross section, but are wider.

O-1 steel is very common in the US for one-off designs, where
quantities are too small to make sourcing the perfect steel
worthwhile. It can be quenched and tempered quite hard or quite
tough.

..<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/steel/material~o1-tool-steel/>

Another very common steel for such is W-1, which is iron with about 1%
carbon. W-1 is far cheaper and easier to use than O-1, can be even
harder than O-1, and so is used for making very sharp cutting edges.
It can also be made quite tough.

..<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/steel/material~w1-tool-steel/>

Give that the wedge and feathers device has been around since the
Bronze Age, I would just try what's any steel that's at hand.

Joe Gwinn

Hi everyone
Ground 3 of the current wedges so looks like wedge-and-feathers will fit
into 12mm drilled socket.
See where that gets me for now.
Appreciating all the inputs.
I will want to forge something which has to cut.
Thanks everyone.

On 02/04/2024 19:11, Richard Smith wrote:
> Hi everyone
> Ground 3 of the current wedges so looks like wedge-and-feathers will fit
> into 12mm drilled socket.
> See where that gets me for now.
> Appreciating all the inputs.
> I will want to forge something which has to cut.
> Thanks everyone.

Did you look at capping? Seems simple enough, and couldn't be cheaper
(if you already have a drill) - some old carpet, a hammer, a steel rod
with a machined end, and a £10 box of caps.

You only need to drill 8mm holes, and though you might want to drill
them a little deeper than for wedge and feathers, you need less of them.
Wedge and feathers is about cutting straight surfaces, capping is more
about smashing big rocks into smaller ones.

While it's good for breaking boulders, I don't know if the technique
could be used on a face; but cavers use it a lot to open up leads, so
maybe. Probably work, but it might be a bit slow on a face though.

Peter Fairbrother

I'll look into this.
"In the moment" response - this is using small charges about the size of
an "AAA" battery?

I've seen videos of in the USA. Apparently given a specific exemption
as "not explosives" because they won't detonate "unconfined". That
while for-purpose, are engineered to be impossible to use for nefarious
puposes...
???

If so, didn't know you could get them in the UK. Assumed without
checking that like side-arms - what you are free to do in the US and is
normal is completely prohibited here...
Cavers use...
Can visualise that - crawling along in a tiny space, having to carry
any kit in such journey, and no space to swing a sledgehammer if you
come to an obstruction...

Apologies if "got the wrong end of the stick".

Rich S

On 07/04/2024 10:29, Richard Smith wrote:
> I'll look into this.
> "In the moment" response - this is using small charges about the size of
> an "AAA" battery?

No, those are "snappers". Cavers did and apparently do use them
sometimes in the UK, but they are very coy about talking about them,
possibly because their legal status is questionable. I don't know
anywhere or even if you can buy them.

Capping or Hilti capping uses Hilti nail gun gun cartridges, which you
can get on ebay, from Hilti, in hardware stores and elsewhere, without
paperwork.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225952485669 at £15 for 100, they are about
£60 per thousand if you buy lots of them.

You want the red or better the black ones, but the black ones can be
more expensive and harder to get.

Some somewhat dangerous examples of use (cavers are nuts anyway):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuPozHyKEKg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjgWA8v52Go

It is possible to use them in a safer manner!!!

8mm drill :)

>> Cavers use...
> Can visualise that - crawling along in a tiny space, having to carry
> any kit in such journey, and no space to swing a sledgehammer if you
> come to an obstruction...

Just "crawling along in a tiny space" is bad enough ...

Peter Fairbrother

Peter Fairbrother <peter@tsto.co.uk> writes:
> Capping or Hilti capping uses Hilti nail gun gun cartridges, which you
> ...
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225952485669 at £15 for 100, they are about
> £60 per thousand if you buy lots of them.
>
> You want the red or better the black ones, but the black ones can be
> more expensive and harder to get.
>
> Some somewhat dangerous examples of use (cavers are nuts anyway):
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuPozHyKEKg
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjgWA8v52Go
> ...

Thanks.
I visualise they are frequently hopping around in various types of pain.

A young fellow who has come along as another volunteer at "our" mine has
what I take to be identically the same drill as second caver type is
using.

I've got the masonry-drill in mine, while he has the pick chisel in his
- on non-rotative obviously.
So we alternate machines. Drilling and "feather'ing" until cracks, then
swapping over to use the pick to open-up the rock releasing the
"feathers" and completing the split / separation. While the other
drills.

Because dust accumulates in the air in the mine, do the drilling under
water flood. Always ejecting slurry.

Do have to find a way to wash away the slurry, as the "10mm" feathers
are a tight fit in the 12mm hole. Plus want slippery metal-to-metal
contact, lubed with oil-graphite spray - don't want abrasive paste of
the slurry in the wedge-to-feathers contact, increasing wear and making
friction.

Not found answer to that yet.
Might make say 11mm dia bit of polymer rod, with small central hole you
inject water down some way. Hopefully efficiently sluice-out the
slurry from bottom to exit of hole.

"Capping" looks interesting, but if it's anything like in those videos,
is not going to be happening at "our" mine.

As I'd like to go for a shot-firer's ticket, might be best to come over
as measured in what I do.

So likely stay with wedges.

Thanks.
At least I have been amused.
Second guy could have been able to sing very high notes if rocks had
gone in another direction - as other comment.

Regards,
Rich

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1sezwvpqd.fsf@void.com...

Do have to find a way to wash away the slurry, as the "10mm" feathers
are a tight fit in the 12mm hole. Plus want slippery metal-to-metal
contact, lubed with oil-graphite spray - don't want abrasive paste of
the slurry in the wedge-to-feathers contact, increasing wear and making
friction.

Not found answer to that yet.
Might make say 11mm dia bit of polymer rod, with small central hole you
inject water down some way. Hopefully efficiently sluice-out the
slurry from bottom to exit of hole.

Regards,
Rich
------------------------

I drilled dry, outdoors, and removed the dust by blowing into a 3/8"
flexible PVC tube with a 1/8" (3mm) nozzle, that I had made to restart
smouldering stove fires. The tube is long enough to keep my face away from
the dust and the fire. Drilling a convergent nozzle hole with a tapered wood
screw bit like this improves the discharge coefficient and lets you easily
test and increase the hole size. A smaller hole worked well, 1/8" empties my
lungs at a sustainable breathing rate.
https://www.amazon.com/Speed-Steel-Taper-Point-Drill/dp/B0057H22AW

Lacking a lathe, oversized aluminium rod can be reduced to a press fit in
the tubing by chucking it in a drill press and filing.

For a different project I fitted a 1/8" pipe thread to push-in tubing
adapter into the cap of a carbonated drink bottle. The combination might let
you wash out the hole with water from your squeeze bottle.

If you're into mild mischief a cap with a well centered hole (lathe) turns
the bottle into a water + compressed air rocket. I was experimenting with
the rocket remotely pressurized and self-releasing to see how much air it
would hold before bursting. Alternately the bottle can be overfilled with
water so it lifts off slowly and sprays all around as it wanders before
accelerating upward. A 6mm hole and 1/4th water is a good start.

Aluminium, brass and plastic parts like these can be made on a small
inexpensive hobby lathe. When I tried making larger steel parts I realized I
needed an industrial lathe, plus a vertical knee mill and a bandsaw. The 10"
(diameter) South Bend has been more than enough for most hobby and lab
prototyping projects, their 9" model was very popular. I'm redesigning the
blade guide roller assembly for my sawmill and turning or milling each part
to the CAD drawing as I progress, to aid and confirm the 3D fitup.

This CAD program is for printed circuit layout. I found it could draw
machined RF-tight enclosures for the microwave circuit boards as well,
though not correctly export as .DXF, the parts were machined from paper
prints. Is there a free CAD for 3D printing that keeps the program and
designs on an isolated computer instead of the cloud?

On 08/04/2024 00:46, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Is there a free CAD for 3D printing that keeps the program and
> designs on an isolated computer instead of the cloud?

FreeCAD?

I use it all the time with .stl's and Cura slicer for ffm 3D, but it
does .step's and .dxf's as well.

Not great, but it is free. Fairly comprehensive, but a bit buggy, also
can crash so backup often. Supposed to be open-source, but some parts
aren't. Bit of a Curate's egg, good in parts but some parts are... not
good. Learning curve is steep-ish.

Default is local storage only.

Peter Fairbrother

"Peter Fairbrother" wrote in message news:uuvdfo$333do$1@dont-email.me...

On 08/04/2024 00:46, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Is there a free CAD for 3D printing that keeps the program and
> designs on an isolated computer instead of the cloud?

FreeCAD?

I use it all the time with .stl's and Cura slicer for ffm 3D, but it
does .step's and .dxf's as well.

Not great, but it is free. Fairly comprehensive, but a bit buggy, also
can crash so backup often. Supposed to be open-source, but some parts
aren't. Bit of a Curate's egg, good in parts but some parts are... not
good. Learning curve is steep-ish.

Default is local storage only.

Peter Fairbrother

----------------------------
Thanks, just downloaded it.

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1sezwvpqd.fsf@void.com...
>
> Do have to find a way to wash away the slurry, as the "10mm" feathers
> are a tight fit in the 12mm hole. Plus want slippery metal-to-metal
> contact, lubed with oil-graphite spray - don't want abrasive paste of
> the slurry in the wedge-to-feathers contact, increasing wear and making
> friction.
>
> ...

> ------------------------
>
> I drilled dry, outdoors, and removed the dust by blowing into a 3/8"
> flexible PVC tube with a 1/8" (3mm) nozzle, that I had made to restart
> smouldering stove fires. The tube is long enough to keep my face away
> from the dust ...

Down the mine / in the mine...
The dust would hang in the air and everyone would breath it in.
Turning up your miner's lamp to full-brightness you can see glinting
tiny particles in the air - highly likely to be silicate. Just a test
little bit of drilling before everyone heading to surface. Not even
"production-level" amounts of drilling.
Absolutely cannot be.

Water flood (actually not a lot of water) to get a slurry.
Nothing glinting in the air by same test of miner's lamp at
full-brightness shining along the level so bright in the beam and no
reflecting-back light (lost a hundred metres and more away).
Completely effective in that regard.

But then yes how to get the adherent slurry out of the drilled
sockets...

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1jzl89nyu.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
>... pipe to hose adapter...

Down the mine / in the mine...
The dust would hang in the air and everyone would breath it in.
Turning up your miner's lamp to full-brightness you can see glinting
tiny particles in the air - highly likely to be silicate. Just a test
little bit of drilling before everyone heading to surface. Not even
"production-level" amounts of drilling.
Absolutely cannot be.

Water flood (actually not a lot of water) to get a slurry.
Nothing glinting in the air by same test of miner's lamp at
full-brightness shining along the level so bright in the beam and no
reflecting-back light (lost a hundred metres and more away).
Completely effective in that regard.

But then yes how to get the adherent slurry out of the drilled
sockets...

-------------------------

The brief but important part of my post was how to connect flexible rubber
or vinyl tubing to a drink bottle cap. In the USA threaded electric lamp
tubing has the non-tapered "IPS, Iron Pipe Straight" version of 1/8" pipe
thread, and brass lock nuts for lamps could reinforce the pipe thread joint
into the bottle cap.
http://www.lampshademaker.com/lamp_pipe_size_chart.htm

The flexible tubing connection could be a barbed spigot, compression with a
plastic sleeve, or a push to disconnect fitting. Flare might even work, I
haven't tried it on vinyl tubing.

IPS female fits but usually requires a rubber washer to seal on NPT (pipe)
male. Sink spray and shower head hoses may use it. The high pressure
hydraulic equivalent is named "swivel" and seals with a metal cone.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1jzl89nyu.fsf@void.com...

But then yes how to get the adherent slurry out of the drilled
sockets...

-------------------------

https://www.bbqboxuk.com/products/2-piece-turkey-baster-set
With an extension hose, cut diagonally on the pickup end.

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1jzl89nyu.fsf@void.com... But
> then yes how to get the adherent slurry out of the drilled
> sockets...
>
> -------------------------
>
> https://www.bbqboxuk.com/products/2-piece-turkey-baster-set With an
> extension hose, cut diagonally on the pickup end.

Thanks - I was trying to get ideas for this.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1wmp7v7i7.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1jzl89nyu.fsf@void.com... But
> then yes how to get the adherent slurry out of the drilled
> sockets...
>
> -------------------------
>
> https://www.bbqboxuk.com/products/2-piece-turkey-baster-set With an
> extension hose, cut diagonally on the pickup end.

Thanks - I was trying to get ideas for this.

---------------------------
The clear ones appear to be styrene, gasoline attacks them and they can
crack if abused. The somewhat frosted ones may be polyethylene or
polypropylene which is more durable and chemical resistant. A reinforcing
swelling at the tip helps retain the extension tubing. If too small, vinyl
tubing can be expanded by warming and stretching with needle-nose pliers.

Snag-free tubing clamping:
https://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/common-whipping

The cut ends can be pushed in to disappear. I suspect the Gordian Knot used
the same trick.