Using Dura Ace 7800 components except for the mid length arm `105 rear derailleur I find that the dear spacings on an 11-36 to be very comfortable. Why 11 speeds should feel so much different than 10 is pretty surprising but it does. With the 12 speed with an 11-34 I simply don't think about shifting because I haven't used the bottom three gears except on steep descents and then rarely pedal it but just use it for stability.

Of course flunky doesn't know anything about that sort of thing and proclaims that it doesn't exist. but then again you have to remember that Liebermann agrees with him which automatically means Flunky is wrong.

I haven't had a chance to try the 36 yet since I haven't been able to climb any real hills. There is this strange effect going on: I used to be able to ride quite slowly but the now I am riding harder to obtain the same result. I suppose that this is because I now use lower gears and have to ride harder to get anywhere in the same amount of time.

I am using the 7800 levers rather than the 7900 levers. People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5% of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference. And the sideways exit of shift wires makes shifting easier. That is more important to me than a pretend aero advantage.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:04:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5% of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference.

Wrong. Show your sources and calculations.

"Aerodynamic Cycling: The Ultimate Guide to All Things Aero"
<https://www.bicycling.com/skills-tips/a22107504/aerodynamic-definition-in-cycling/>

"At speeds over 9 mph, it’s the dominant force of resistance. By the
time you hit about 30 mph, 90 percent of your power goes into
overcoming air resistance, or what scientists call aerodynamic drag."

"At 10 mph, half of your power is going to overcome air resistance..."

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 11:04:37 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Using Dura Ace 7800 components except for the mid length arm `105 rear derailleur I find that the dear spacings on an 11-36 to be very comfortable. Why 11 speeds should feel so much different than 10 is pretty surprising but it does. With the 12 speed with an 11-34 I simply don't think about shifting because I haven't used the bottom three gears except on steep descents and then rarely pedal it but just use it for stability.
>
> Of course flunky doesn't know anything about that sort of thing and proclaims that it doesn't exist. but then again you have to remember that Liebermann agrees with him which automatically means Flunky is wrong.
>
> I haven't had a chance to try the 36 yet since I haven't been able to climb any real hills. There is this strange effect going on: I used to be able to ride quite slowly but the now I am riding harder to obtain the same result. I suppose that this is because I now use lower gears and have to ride harder to get anywhere in the same amount of time.
>
> I am using the 7800 levers rather than the 7900 levers. People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5% of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference. And the sideways exit of shift wires makes shifting easier. That is more important to me than a pretend aero advantage.

Apparently the Jewish idiot that doesn't ride bicycles is now pretending he knows about them' Inasmuch as the average rider rides at 12.5 mph. I almost immediately got three notes telling me that Liebermann, the man condemned to hell for eternity by the Tanakh, doesn't even know that almost ALL aerodynamic "advantages" on a modern bicycle have little to no effect at speeds below 30 kph (18 mph) and no significant aid until you hit 40 kph (25 mph) and only then when you are racing longer distances.

Stupid is as stupid does. Even Flunky knows better than that but wouldn't say a word against Liebermann's ignorance. Liebermann used to take his mother as an emotional support dog on his interviews. It didn't work.

On 1/10/2024 2:04 PM, Tom Kunich proved once again I live rent free in
his head:
> Using Dura Ace 7800 components except for the mid length arm `105 rear derailleur I find that the dear spacings on an 11-36 to be very comfortable. Why 11 speeds should feel so much different than 10 is pretty surprising but it does. With the 12 speed with an 11-34 I simply don't think about shifting because I haven't used the bottom three gears except on steep descents and then rarely pedal it but just use it for stability.
>
> Of course flunky doesn't know anything about that sort of thing and proclaims that it doesn't exist. but then again you have to remember that Liebermann agrees with him which automatically means Flunky is wrong.

Pedaling on high speed descents does not give you more stability. If
that were true, you wouldn't see this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OKUuyKRSAw

All four examples in that video show the same thing - the rider pedals
to keep the speed and stops pedaling when they spin out. If they needed
to do it for stability, they would pedal constantly.

One pedals on downhills to increase speed, not increase stability.
That's exactly what Lemond was referring to when he wrote 'you don't
stop pedaling on a downhill'...it's about speed, making the competotors
take risks to chase you

You won't find recommendations form professionals/expert descenders that
state "keep pedaling to maintain stability"

Want more?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmm-gV21pz4

What to all these rides have in common? they stop pedaling at high speeds.

I seriously have no idea where you come up with these screwball ideas -
pedaling on downhills increases stability....fer fucks sake.

>
> I haven't had a chance to try the 36 yet since I haven't been able to climb any real hills. There is this strange effect going on: I used to be able to ride quite slowly but the now I am riding harder to obtain the same result. I suppose that this is because I now use lower gears and have to ride harder to get anywhere in the same amount of time.
>
> I am using the 7800 levers rather than the 7900 levers. People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5% of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference. And the sideways exit of shift wires makes shifting easier. That is more important to me than a pretend aero advantage.
>

--
Add xx to reply

On 1/10/2024 4:59 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> Apparently the Jewish idiot

Were you trained to be a racist piece of shit or were you born that way?

> that doesn't ride bicycles is now pretending he knows about them' Inasmuch as the average rider rides at 12.5 mph. I almost immediately got three notes telling me that Liebermann,

No one sent you any notes. No one believes you when you claim someone
sent you notes. It only reinforces your image as the village idiot.

> the man condemned to hell for eternity by the Tanakh, doesn't even know that almost ALL aerodynamic "advantages" on a modern bicycle have little to no effect at speeds below 30 kph (18 mph) and no significant aid until you hit 40 kph (25 mph) and only then when you are racing longer distances.

Any reduction in drag is a benefit at any speed. A fit rider wouldn't
likely feel the difference much below 20, but sitting upright at 12 mph
creates more drag that in an aero tuck at 12 mph. This is measurable
and real, unless you live in tommy's alternate universe with different
physical laws.

>
> Stupid is as stupid does

You sure are...

> Even Flunky knows better than that but wouldn't say a word against Liebermann's ignorance.

If Jeff had printed anything out of ignorance - like 'pedaling on
descents increases stability' - I would call him out on it.

> Liebermann used to take his mother as an emotional support dog on his interviews. It didn't work.

Tommy's mother used to kick him in the nuts on a regular basis because
she was so embarrassed by him she didn't want him reproducing.

--
Add xx to reply

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:04:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5%
>> of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference.
>
> Wrong. Show your sources and calculations.
>
> "Aerodynamic Cycling: The Ultimate Guide to All Things Aero"
> <https://www.bicycling.com/skills-tips/a22107504/aerodynamic-definition-in-cycling/>
>
> "At speeds over 9 mph, it’s the dominant force of resistance. By the
> time you hit about 30 mph, 90 percent of your power goes into
> overcoming air resistance, or what scientists call aerodynamic drag."
>
> "At 10 mph, half of your power is going to overcome air resistance..."
>

My commute bike which is quite a slow old beast, but it really catches the
wind, making windy days hard work, particularly as my commute is quite flat
and wind swept.

Roger Merriman

On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 2:20:03 PM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 1/10/2024 4:59 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> >
> > Apparently the Jewish idiot
>
> Were you trained to be a racist piece of shit or were you born that way?
> > that doesn't ride bicycles is now pretending he knows about them' Inasmuch as the average rider rides at 12.5 mph. I almost immediately got three notes telling me that Liebermann,
> No one sent you any notes. No one believes you when you claim someone
> sent you notes. It only reinforces your image as the village idiot.
> > the man condemned to hell for eternity by the Tanakh, doesn't even know that almost ALL aerodynamic "advantages" on a modern bicycle have little to no effect at speeds below 30 kph (18 mph) and no significant aid until you hit 40 kph (25 mph) and only then when you are racing longer distances.
> Any reduction in drag is a benefit at any speed. A fit rider wouldn't
> likely feel the difference much below 20, but sitting upright at 12 mph
> creates more drag that in an aero tuck at 12 mph. This is measurable
> and real, unless you live in tommy's alternate universe with different
> physical laws.
>
> >
> > Stupid is as stupid does
>
> You sure are...
> > Even Flunky knows better than that but wouldn't say a word against Liebermann's ignorance.
> If Jeff had printed anything out of ignorance - like 'pedaling on
> descents increases stability' - I would call him out on it.
> > Liebermann used to take his mother as an emotional support dog on his interviews. It didn't work.
> Tommy's mother used to kick him in the nuts on a regular basis because
> she was so embarrassed by him she didn't want him reproducing.
> --
> Add xx to reply
The moron again proves his ignorance. It would be pretty difficult to be racist against my own heritage. 100
Flunky brains again dancing on the head of a pin.

On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 1:40:24 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:04:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5%
> >> of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference..
> >
> > Wrong. Show your sources and calculations.
> >
> > "Aerodynamic Cycling: The Ultimate Guide to All Things Aero"
> > <https://www.bicycling.com/skills-tips/a22107504/aerodynamic-definition-in-cycling/>
> >
> > "At speeds over 9 mph, it’s the dominant force of resistance. By the
> > time you hit about 30 mph, 90 percent of your power goes into
> > overcoming air resistance, or what scientists call aerodynamic drag."
> >
> > "At 10 mph, half of your power is going to overcome air resistance..."
> >
> My commute bike which is quite a slow old beast, but it really catches the
> wind, making windy days hard work, particularly as my commute is quite flat
> and wind swept.
>
> Roger Merriman
Tell you what Roger, get the most aerodynamic bike you can get and see if your can tell the difference on your daily commute.

On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 5:06:21 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 1:40:24 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> > > On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:04:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5%
> > >> of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference.
> > >
> > > Wrong. Show your sources and calculations.
> > >
> > > "Aerodynamic Cycling: The Ultimate Guide to All Things Aero"
> > > <https://www.bicycling.com/skills-tips/a22107504/aerodynamic-definition-in-cycling/>
> > >
> > > "At speeds over 9 mph, it’s the dominant force of resistance. By the
> > > time you hit about 30 mph, 90 percent of your power goes into
> > > overcoming air resistance, or what scientists call aerodynamic drag."
> > >
> > > "At 10 mph, half of your power is going to overcome air resistance..."
> > >
> > My commute bike which is quite a slow old beast, but it really catches the
> > wind, making windy days hard work, particularly as my commute is quite flat
> > and wind swept.
> >
> > Roger Merriman
> Tell you what Roger, get the most aerodynamic bike you can get and see if your can tell the difference on your daily commute.

That would be easy. It would be unpractical though.

Lou

Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 5:06:21 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 1:40:24 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:04:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5%
>>>>> of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference.
>>>>
>>>> Wrong. Show your sources and calculations.
>>>>
>>>> "Aerodynamic Cycling: The Ultimate Guide to All Things Aero"
>>>> <https://www.bicycling.com/skills-tips/a22107504/aerodynamic-definition-in-cycling/>
>>>>
>>>> "At speeds over 9 mph, it’s the dominant force of resistance. By the
>>>> time you hit about 30 mph, 90 percent of your power goes into
>>>> overcoming air resistance, or what scientists call aerodynamic drag."
>>>>
>>>> "At 10 mph, half of your power is going to overcome air resistance..."
>>>>
>>> My commute bike which is quite a slow old beast, but it really catches the
>>> wind, making windy days hard work, particularly as my commute is quite flat
>>> and wind swept.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>> Tell you what Roger, get the most aerodynamic bike you can get and see
>> if your can tell the difference on your daily commute.
>
>
> That would be easy. It would be unpractical though.
>
> Lou
>

I have seen folks with TT bars hooning it down the London Embankment, even
there can’t imagine it would feel particularly safe/practical/enjoyable.

Have seen recumbents though very rarely and on fast roads without much
stopping.

I don’t have that many stops for commute across town, about 1 per mile be
that park gates/traffic light/junctions etc. And arguably a faster more
aerodynamic bike would be faster, but I like that the bike will tolerate
unmade surfaces or potholes etc that being an old MTB it’s unfazed by.

Roger Merriman

On 1/11/2024 11:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 2:20:03 PM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
>> On 1/10/2024 4:59 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Apparently the Jewish idiot
>>
>> Were you trained to be a racist piece of shit or were you born that way?
>>> that doesn't ride bicycles is now pretending he knows about them' Inasmuch as the average rider rides at 12.5 mph. I almost immediately got three notes telling me that Liebermann,
>> No one sent you any notes. No one believes you when you claim someone
>> sent you notes. It only reinforces your image as the village idiot.
>>> the man condemned to hell for eternity by the Tanakh, doesn't even know that almost ALL aerodynamic "advantages" on a modern bicycle have little to no effect at speeds below 30 kph (18 mph) and no significant aid until you hit 40 kph (25 mph) and only then when you are racing longer distances.
>> Any reduction in drag is a benefit at any speed. A fit rider wouldn't
>> likely feel the difference much below 20, but sitting upright at 12 mph
>> creates more drag that in an aero tuck at 12 mph. This is measurable
>> and real, unless you live in tommy's alternate universe with different
>> physical laws.
>>
>>>
>>> Stupid is as stupid does
>>
>> You sure are...
>>> Even Flunky knows better than that but wouldn't say a word against Liebermann's ignorance.
>> If Jeff had printed anything out of ignorance - like 'pedaling on
>> descents increases stability' - I would call him out on it.
>>> Liebermann used to take his mother as an emotional support dog on his interviews. It didn't work.
>> Tommy's mother used to kick him in the nuts on a regular basis because
>> she was so embarrassed by him she didn't want him reproducing.
>> --
>> Add xx to reply
> The moron again proves his ignorance. It would be pretty difficult to be racist against my own heritage.

No, you do it rather well.

> 100
> Flunky brains again dancing on the head of a pin.

I _do_ live rent free in your (pin)head.

--
Add xx to reply

On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 2:03:44 PM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 1/10/2024 2:04 PM, Tom Kunich proved once again I live rent free in
> his head:
> > Using Dura Ace 7800 components except for the mid length arm `105 rear derailleur I find that the dear spacings on an 11-36 to be very comfortable.. Why 11 speeds should feel so much different than 10 is pretty surprising but it does. With the 12 speed with an 11-34 I simply don't think about shifting because I haven't used the bottom three gears except on steep descents and then rarely pedal it but just use it for stability.
> >
> > Of course flunky doesn't know anything about that sort of thing and proclaims that it doesn't exist. but then again you have to remember that Liebermann agrees with him which automatically means Flunky is wrong.
> Pedaling on high speed descents does not give you more stability. If
> that were true, you wouldn't see this:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OKUuyKRSAw
>
> All four examples in that video show the same thing - the rider pedals
> to keep the speed and stops pedaling when they spin out. If they needed
> to do it for stability, they would pedal constantly.
>
> One pedals on downhills to increase speed, not increase stability.
> That's exactly what Lemond was referring to when he wrote 'you don't
> stop pedaling on a downhill'...it's about speed, making the competotors
> take risks to chase you
>
> You won't find recommendations form professionals/expert descenders that
> state "keep pedaling to maintain stability"
>
> Want more?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmm-gV21pz4
>
> What to all these rides have in common? they stop pedaling at high speeds..
>
> I seriously have no idea where you come up with these screwball ideas -
> pedaling on downhills increases stability....fer fucks sake.
> >
> > I haven't had a chance to try the 36 yet since I haven't been able to climb any real hills. There is this strange effect going on: I used to be able to ride quite slowly but the now I am riding harder to obtain the same result. I suppose that this is because I now use lower gears and have to ride harder to get anywhere in the same amount of time.
> >
> > I am using the 7800 levers rather than the 7900 levers. People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5% of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference. And the sideways exit of shift wires makes shifting easier. That is more important to me than a pretend aero advantage.
> >
> --
> Add xx to reply
After riding a coupler of flat 1000 K you know all about descending. Are you sure that you're not Liebermann in disguise?.

On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 8:24:28 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 5:06:21 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 1:40:24 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:04:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5%
> > > >> of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference.
> > > >
> > > > Wrong. Show your sources and calculations.
> > > >
> > > > "Aerodynamic Cycling: The Ultimate Guide to All Things Aero"
> > > > <https://www.bicycling.com/skills-tips/a22107504/aerodynamic-definition-in-cycling/>
> > > >
> > > > "At speeds over 9 mph, it’s the dominant force of resistance. By the
> > > > time you hit about 30 mph, 90 percent of your power goes into
> > > > overcoming air resistance, or what scientists call aerodynamic drag.."
> > > >
> > > > "At 10 mph, half of your power is going to overcome air resistance...."
> > > >
> > > My commute bike which is quite a slow old beast, but it really catches the
> > > wind, making windy days hard work, particularly as my commute is quite flat
> > > and wind swept.
> > >
> > > Roger Merriman
> > Tell you what Roger, get the most aerodynamic bike you can get and see if your can tell the difference on your daily commute.
> That would be easy. It would be unpractical though.
>
> Lou

Well, my point is that aerodynamic drag increases not linearly but exponentially. The aerodynamic improvements of the "aero" bikes are so slight that it requires a great deal of speed to even detect an improvement. . Liebermann, who isn't a bicycle rider and hasn't even a clue what a drag increase is. Pros can benefit from incremental increases but you and I can't. BTW - I took the Basso Loto out today and something was most definitely different. My moving average was a mph faster than usual. I really prefer the braking and shifting of the Shimano 10 speed 7800 to the Campy.

On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 2:03:44 PM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 1/10/2024 2:04 PM, Tom Kunich proved once again I live rent free in
> his head:
> > Using Dura Ace 7800 components except for the mid length arm `105 rear derailleur I find that the dear spacings on an 11-36 to be very comfortable.. Why 11 speeds should feel so much different than 10 is pretty surprising but it does. With the 12 speed with an 11-34 I simply don't think about shifting because I haven't used the bottom three gears except on steep descents and then rarely pedal it but just use it for stability.
> >
> > Of course flunky doesn't know anything about that sort of thing and proclaims that it doesn't exist. but then again you have to remember that Liebermann agrees with him which automatically means Flunky is wrong.
> Pedaling on high speed descents does not give you more stability. If
> that were true, you wouldn't see this:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OKUuyKRSAw
>
> All four examples in that video show the same thing - the rider pedals
> to keep the speed and stops pedaling when they spin out. If they needed
> to do it for stability, they would pedal constantly.
>
> One pedals on downhills to increase speed, not increase stability.
> That's exactly what Lemond was referring to when he wrote 'you don't
> stop pedaling on a downhill'...it's about speed, making the competotors
> take risks to chase you
>
> You won't find recommendations form professionals/expert descenders that
> state "keep pedaling to maintain stability"
>
> Want more?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmm-gV21pz4
>
> What to all these rides have in common? they stop pedaling at high speeds..
>
> I seriously have no idea where you come up with these screwball ideas -
> pedaling on downhills increases stability....fer fucks sake.
> >
> > I haven't had a chance to try the 36 yet since I haven't been able to climb any real hills. There is this strange effect going on: I used to be able to ride quite slowly but the now I am riding harder to obtain the same result. I suppose that this is because I now use lower gears and have to ride harder to get anywhere in the same amount of time.
> >
> > I am using the 7800 levers rather than the 7900 levers. People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5% of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference. And the sideways exit of shift wires makes shifting easier. That is more important to me than a pretend aero advantage.
> >
> --
> Add xx to reply
Why do you have to prove your ignorance with every posting. Like a jackass you point out that pros descending well above the speed that you could pedal at can stabilize themselves so riding under that speed you should be able to as well. I guess you never bothered to watch that video that Lou posted of Tom Pidcock pedalling on his 6 mile descent. I keep expecting that one day you're going to grow up but with every posting that seems less and less likely.

On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 10:14:48 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 5:06:21 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 1:40:24 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:04:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> >>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5%
> >>>>> of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference.
> >>>>
> >>>> Wrong. Show your sources and calculations.
> >>>>
> >>>> "Aerodynamic Cycling: The Ultimate Guide to All Things Aero"
> >>>> <https://www.bicycling.com/skills-tips/a22107504/aerodynamic-definition-in-cycling/>
> >>>>
> >>>> "At speeds over 9 mph, it’s the dominant force of resistance.. By the
> >>>> time you hit about 30 mph, 90 percent of your power goes into
> >>>> overcoming air resistance, or what scientists call aerodynamic drag."
> >>>>
> >>>> "At 10 mph, half of your power is going to overcome air resistance...."
> >>>>
> >>> My commute bike which is quite a slow old beast, but it really catches the
> >>> wind, making windy days hard work, particularly as my commute is quite flat
> >>> and wind swept.
> >>>
> >>> Roger Merriman
> >> Tell you what Roger, get the most aerodynamic bike you can get and see
> >> if your can tell the difference on your daily commute.
> >
> >
> > That would be easy. It would be unpractical though.
> >
> > Lou
> >
> I have seen folks with TT bars hooning it down the London Embankment, even
> there can’t imagine it would feel particularly safe/practical/enjoyable.
>
> Have seen recumbents though very rarely and on fast roads without much
> stopping.
>
> I don’t have that many stops for commute across town, about 1 per mile be
> that park gates/traffic light/junctions etc. And arguably a faster more
> aerodynamic bike would be faster, but I like that the bike will tolerate
> unmade surfaces or potholes etc that being an old MTB it’s unfazed by.
>
> Roger Merriman

I agree with you that TT bikes even ridden by pros are unsafe. But the definition of Aero bikes are road bikes with completely enclosed control wires, deep section wheels aero tubing and such. These "aero" advantages are very small and unless you ride very fast you can't detect any difference. The aerodynamic drag of you body swamps out these changes in the bike.

On 1/11/2024 1:27 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 8:24:28 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 5:06:21 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 1:40:24 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:04:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5%
>>>>>> of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wrong. Show your sources and calculations.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Aerodynamic Cycling: The Ultimate Guide to All Things Aero"
>>>>> <https://www.bicycling.com/skills-tips/a22107504/aerodynamic-definition-in-cycling/>
>>>>>
>>>>> "At speeds over 9 mph, it’s the dominant force of resistance. By the
>>>>> time you hit about 30 mph, 90 percent of your power goes into
>>>>> overcoming air resistance, or what scientists call aerodynamic drag."
>>>>>
>>>>> "At 10 mph, half of your power is going to overcome air resistance..."
>>>>>
>>>> My commute bike which is quite a slow old beast, but it really catches the
>>>> wind, making windy days hard work, particularly as my commute is quite flat
>>>> and wind swept.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>> Tell you what Roger, get the most aerodynamic bike you can get and see if your can tell the difference on your daily commute.
>> That would be easy. It would be unpractical though.
>>
>> Lou
>
> Well, my point is that aerodynamic drag increases not linearly but exponentially. The aerodynamic improvements of the "aero" bikes are so slight that it requires a great deal of speed to even detect an improvement. . Liebermann, who isn't a bicycle rider and hasn't even a clue what a drag increase is. Pros can benefit from incremental increases but you and I can't. BTW - I took the Basso Loto out today and something was most definitely different. My moving average was a mph faster than usual. I really prefer the braking and shifting of the Shimano 10 speed 7800 to the Campy.

Yes it's exponential to speed but note that's for a
bicycle+rider+cargo unit, not the bike alone.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 1:11:46 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/11/2024 1:27 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 8:24:28 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 5:06:21 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 1:40:24 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:04:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> >>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5%
> >>>>>> of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Wrong. Show your sources and calculations.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Aerodynamic Cycling: The Ultimate Guide to All Things Aero"
> >>>>> <https://www.bicycling.com/skills-tips/a22107504/aerodynamic-definition-in-cycling/>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "At speeds over 9 mph, it’s the dominant force of resistance. By the
> >>>>> time you hit about 30 mph, 90 percent of your power goes into
> >>>>> overcoming air resistance, or what scientists call aerodynamic drag.."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "At 10 mph, half of your power is going to overcome air resistance...."
> >>>>>
> >>>> My commute bike which is quite a slow old beast, but it really catches the
> >>>> wind, making windy days hard work, particularly as my commute is quite flat
> >>>> and wind swept.
> >>>>
> >>>> Roger Merriman
> >>> Tell you what Roger, get the most aerodynamic bike you can get and see if your can tell the difference on your daily commute.
> >> That would be easy. It would be unpractical though.
> >>
> >> Lou
> >
> > Well, my point is that aerodynamic drag increases not linearly but exponentially. The aerodynamic improvements of the "aero" bikes are so slight that it requires a great deal of speed to even detect an improvement. . Liebermann, who isn't a bicycle rider and hasn't even a clue what a drag increase is. Pros can benefit from incremental increases but you and I can't. BTW - I took the Basso Loto out today and something was most definitely different. My moving average was a mph faster than usual. I really prefer the braking and shifting of the Shimano 10 speed 7800 to the Campy.
> Yes it's exponential to speed but note that's for a
> bicycle+rider+cargo unit, not the bike alone.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
That's why I noted that the human body perched atop the bicycle makes up the overwhelming majority of drag. So the miniscule drag decreases on the bicycle are significant only at very high speeds that normal people cannot hope to achieve other than for short periods on descents which is worthless to the common cyclist.

On 1/11/2024 2:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 2:03:44 PM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
>> On 1/10/2024 2:04 PM, Tom Kunich proved once again I live rent free in
>> his head:
>>> Using Dura Ace 7800 components except for the mid length arm `105 rear derailleur I find that the dear spacings on an 11-36 to be very comfortable. Why 11 speeds should feel so much different than 10 is pretty surprising but it does. With the 12 speed with an 11-34 I simply don't think about shifting because I haven't used the bottom three gears except on steep descents and then rarely pedal it but just use it for stability.
>>>
>>> Of course flunky doesn't know anything about that sort of thing and proclaims that it doesn't exist. but then again you have to remember that Liebermann agrees with him which automatically means Flunky is wrong.
>> Pedaling on high speed descents does not give you more stability. If
>> that were true, you wouldn't see this:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OKUuyKRSAw
>>
>> All four examples in that video show the same thing - the rider pedals
>> to keep the speed and stops pedaling when they spin out. If they needed
>> to do it for stability, they would pedal constantly.
>>
>> One pedals on downhills to increase speed, not increase stability.
>> That's exactly what Lemond was referring to when he wrote 'you don't
>> stop pedaling on a downhill'...it's about speed, making the competotors
>> take risks to chase you
>>
>> You won't find recommendations form professionals/expert descenders that
>> state "keep pedaling to maintain stability"
>>
>> Want more?
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmm-gV21pz4
>>
>> What to all these rides have in common? they stop pedaling at high speeds.
>>
>> I seriously have no idea where you come up with these screwball ideas -
>> pedaling on downhills increases stability....fer fucks sake.
>>>
>>> I haven't had a chance to try the 36 yet since I haven't been able to climb any real hills. There is this strange effect going on: I used to be able to ride quite slowly but the now I am riding harder to obtain the same result. I suppose that this is because I now use lower gears and have to ride harder to get anywhere in the same amount of time.
>>>
>>> I am using the 7800 levers rather than the 7900 levers. People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5% of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference. And the sideways exit of shift wires makes shifting easier. That is more important to me than a pretend aero advantage.
>>>
>> --
>> Add xx to reply
> After riding a coupler of flat 1000 K you know all about descending.

Way more than you.
https://www.strava.com/activities/1187349546
https://www.strava.com/activities/715945802

> Are you sure that you're not Liebermann in disguise?.

Are you sure you aren't george santos in disguise?

--
Add xx to reply

On 1/11/2024 2:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 2:03:44 PM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
>> On 1/10/2024 2:04 PM, Tom Kunich proved once again I live rent free in
>> his head:
>>> Using Dura Ace 7800 components except for the mid length arm `105 rear derailleur I find that the dear spacings on an 11-36 to be very comfortable. Why 11 speeds should feel so much different than 10 is pretty surprising but it does. With the 12 speed with an 11-34 I simply don't think about shifting because I haven't used the bottom three gears except on steep descents and then rarely pedal it but just use it for stability.
>>>
>>> Of course flunky doesn't know anything about that sort of thing and proclaims that it doesn't exist. but then again you have to remember that Liebermann agrees with him which automatically means Flunky is wrong.
>> Pedaling on high speed descents does not give you more stability. If
>> that were true, you wouldn't see this:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OKUuyKRSAw
>>
>> All four examples in that video show the same thing - the rider pedals
>> to keep the speed and stops pedaling when they spin out. If they needed
>> to do it for stability, they would pedal constantly.
>>
>> One pedals on downhills to increase speed, not increase stability.
>> That's exactly what Lemond was referring to when he wrote 'you don't
>> stop pedaling on a downhill'...it's about speed, making the competotors
>> take risks to chase you
>>
>> You won't find recommendations form professionals/expert descenders that
>> state "keep pedaling to maintain stability"
>>
>> Want more?
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmm-gV21pz4
>>
>> What to all these rides have in common? they stop pedaling at high speeds.
>>
>> I seriously have no idea where you come up with these screwball ideas -
>> pedaling on downhills increases stability....fer fucks sake.
>>>
>>> I haven't had a chance to try the 36 yet since I haven't been able to climb any real hills. There is this strange effect going on: I used to be able to ride quite slowly but the now I am riding harder to obtain the same result. I suppose that this is because I now use lower gears and have to ride harder to get anywhere in the same amount of time.
>>>
>>> I am using the 7800 levers rather than the 7900 levers. People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5% of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference. And the sideways exit of shift wires makes shifting easier. That is more important to me than a pretend aero advantage.
>>>
>> --
>> Add xx to reply
> Why do you have to prove your ignorance with every posting.

says the guy who just posted "whites are a minority in America"

> Like a jackass you point out that pros descending well above the speed that you could pedal at can stabilize themselves so riding under that speed you should be able to as well.

Sure, pointing out something factual makes me a jackass? You've just
disproved you own argument, btw.

> I guess you never bothered to watch that video that Lou posted of Tom Pidcock pedalling on his 6 mile descent.

I did, it was great. I also noticed most of the time he was pedaling to
keep his speed up, generally going slower than being spun out. What was
clear is that he didn't need to pedal to maintain stability.

> I keep expecting that one day you're going to grow up but with every posting that seems less and less likely.

You only have 5 more weeks to put up with it.

--
Add xx to reply

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 10:14:48 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 5:06:21 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 1:40:24 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:04:35 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5%
>>>>>>> of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wrong. Show your sources and calculations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Aerodynamic Cycling: The Ultimate Guide to All Things Aero"
>>>>>> <https://www.bicycling.com/skills-tips/a22107504/aerodynamic-definition-in-cycling/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "At speeds over 9 mph, it’s the dominant force of resistance. By the
>>>>>> time you hit about 30 mph, 90 percent of your power goes into
>>>>>> overcoming air resistance, or what scientists call aerodynamic drag."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "At 10 mph, half of your power is going to overcome air resistance..."
>>>>>>
>>>>> My commute bike which is quite a slow old beast, but it really catches the
>>>>> wind, making windy days hard work, particularly as my commute is quite flat
>>>>> and wind swept.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>> Tell you what Roger, get the most aerodynamic bike you can get and see
>>>> if your can tell the difference on your daily commute.
>>>
>>>
>>> That would be easy. It would be unpractical though.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>> I have seen folks with TT bars hooning it down the London Embankment, even
>> there can’t imagine it would feel particularly safe/practical/enjoyable.
>>
>> Have seen recumbents though very rarely and on fast roads without much
>> stopping.
>>
>> I don’t have that many stops for commute across town, about 1 per mile be
>> that park gates/traffic light/junctions etc. And arguably a faster more
>> aerodynamic bike would be faster, but I like that the bike will tolerate
>> unmade surfaces or potholes etc that being an old MTB it’s unfazed by.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> I agree with you that TT bikes even ridden by pros are unsafe. But the
> definition of Aero bikes are road bikes with completely enclosed control
> wires, deep section wheels aero tubing and such. These "aero" advantages
> are very small and unless you ride very fast you can't detect any
> difference. The aerodynamic drag of you body swamps out these changes in the bike.
>
Apparently not, some magazines/journalists have played with wind tunnels at
more realistic speeds, and some on the road tests, broadly slower riders
with less power are if anything more effected by wind and aerodynamics in
general.

That you are the biggest drag doesn’t mean that the bike performance
differences can’t be felt and measured.

How much one chooses to care about this is another, as I’m a MTB at heart I
tend to baggies even on the Gravel bike, this undoubtedly costs me speed!
Do I care? Not at all!

Roger Merriman

On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 1:17:46 PM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 1/11/2024 2:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 2:03:44 PM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
> >> On 1/10/2024 2:04 PM, Tom Kunich proved once again I live rent free in
> >> his head:
> >>> Using Dura Ace 7800 components except for the mid length arm `105 rear derailleur I find that the dear spacings on an 11-36 to be very comfortable. Why 11 speeds should feel so much different than 10 is pretty surprising but it does. With the 12 speed with an 11-34 I simply don't think about shifting because I haven't used the bottom three gears except on steep descents and then rarely pedal it but just use it for stability.
> >>>
> >>> Of course flunky doesn't know anything about that sort of thing and proclaims that it doesn't exist. but then again you have to remember that Liebermann agrees with him which automatically means Flunky is wrong.
> >> Pedaling on high speed descents does not give you more stability. If
> >> that were true, you wouldn't see this:
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OKUuyKRSAw
> >>
> >> All four examples in that video show the same thing - the rider pedals
> >> to keep the speed and stops pedaling when they spin out. If they needed
> >> to do it for stability, they would pedal constantly.
> >>
> >> One pedals on downhills to increase speed, not increase stability.
> >> That's exactly what Lemond was referring to when he wrote 'you don't
> >> stop pedaling on a downhill'...it's about speed, making the competotors
> >> take risks to chase you
> >>
> >> You won't find recommendations form professionals/expert descenders that
> >> state "keep pedaling to maintain stability"
> >>
> >> Want more?
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmm-gV21pz4
> >>
> >> What to all these rides have in common? they stop pedaling at high speeds.
> >>
> >> I seriously have no idea where you come up with these screwball ideas -
> >> pedaling on downhills increases stability....fer fucks sake.
> >>>
> >>> I haven't had a chance to try the 36 yet since I haven't been able to climb any real hills. There is this strange effect going on: I used to be able to ride quite slowly but the now I am riding harder to obtain the same result. I suppose that this is because I now use lower gears and have to ride harder to get anywhere in the same amount of time.
> >>>
> >>> I am using the 7800 levers rather than the 7900 levers. People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5% of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference. And the sideways exit of shift wires makes shifting easier. That is more important to me than a pretend aero advantage.
> >>>
> >> --
> >> Add xx to reply
> > After riding a coupler of flat 1000 K you know all about descending.
> Way more than you.
> https://www.strava.com/activities/1187349546
> https://www.strava.com/activities/715945802
> > Are you sure that you're not Liebermann in disguise?.
> Are you sure you aren't george santos in disguise?
> --
> Add xx to reply
So, you showing us that 8 years ago you did a ride? 8 years ago, the centuries I did just in the spring were longer and had more climbing. Stop trying to show off complete bullshit and try an act like a real cyclist for a change.

On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 3:23:23 p.m. UTC-6, Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 1/11/2024 2:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 2:03:44 PM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
> >> On 1/10/2024 2:04 PM, Tom Kunich proved once again I live rent free in
> >> his head:
> >>> Using Dura Ace 7800 components except for the mid length arm `105 rear derailleur I find that the dear spacings on an 11-36 to be very comfortable. Why 11 speeds should feel so much different than 10 is pretty surprising but it does. With the 12 speed with an 11-34 I simply don't think about shifting because I haven't used the bottom three gears except on steep descents and then rarely pedal it but just use it for stability.
> >>>
> >>> Of course flunky doesn't know anything about that sort of thing and proclaims that it doesn't exist. but then again you have to remember that Liebermann agrees with him which automatically means Flunky is wrong.
> >> Pedaling on high speed descents does not give you more stability. If
> >> that were true, you wouldn't see this:
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OKUuyKRSAw
> >>
> >> All four examples in that video show the same thing - the rider pedals
> >> to keep the speed and stops pedaling when they spin out. If they needed
> >> to do it for stability, they would pedal constantly.
> >>
> >> One pedals on downhills to increase speed, not increase stability.
> >> That's exactly what Lemond was referring to when he wrote 'you don't
> >> stop pedaling on a downhill'...it's about speed, making the competotors
> >> take risks to chase you
> >>
> >> You won't find recommendations form professionals/expert descenders that
> >> state "keep pedaling to maintain stability"
> >>
> >> Want more?
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmm-gV21pz4
> >>
> >> What to all these rides have in common? they stop pedaling at high speeds.
> >>
> >> I seriously have no idea where you come up with these screwball ideas -
> >> pedaling on downhills increases stability....fer fucks sake.
> >>>
> >>> I haven't had a chance to try the 36 yet since I haven't been able to climb any real hills. There is this strange effect going on: I used to be able to ride quite slowly but the now I am riding harder to obtain the same result. I suppose that this is because I now use lower gears and have to ride harder to get anywhere in the same amount of time.
> >>>
> >>> I am using the 7800 levers rather than the 7900 levers. People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5% of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference. And the sideways exit of shift wires makes shifting easier. That is more important to me than a pretend aero advantage.
> >>>
> >> --
> >> Add xx to reply
> > Why do you have to prove your ignorance with every posting.
> says the guy who just posted "whites are a minority in America"
> > Like a jackass you point out that pros descending well above the speed that you could pedal at can stabilize themselves so riding under that speed you should be able to as well.
> Sure, pointing out something factual makes me a jackass? You've just
> disproved you own argument, btw.
> > I guess you never bothered to watch that video that Lou posted of Tom Pidcock pedalling on his 6 mile descent.
> I did, it was great. I also noticed most of the time he was pedaling to
> keep his speed up, generally going slower than being spun out. What was
> clear is that he didn't need to pedal to maintain stability.
> > I keep expecting that one day you're going to grow up but with every posting that seems less and less likely.
> You only have 5 more weeks to put up with it.
> --
> Add xx to reply

It's going to be s o nice when this newsgroup is no longer polluted by his posting or the replies to them. With luck we'll actually get back to BICYCLING stuff.

When I have time I'll work on getting a newsgroup reader up and running.

Cheers

On 1/11/2024 4:17 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 1:11:46 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/11/2024 1:27 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>> Yes it's exponential to speed but note that's for a
>> bicycle+rider+cargo unit, not the bike alone.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> That's why I noted that the human body perched atop the bicycle makes up the overwhelming majority of drag. So the miniscule drag decreases on the bicycle are significant only at very high speeds that normal people cannot hope to achieve other than for short periods on descents which is worthless to the common cyclist.

I agree with Tom on this one. An aero bike is negligible benefit to a
typical rider.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/11/2024 6:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 1:17:46 PM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
>> On 1/11/2024 2:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 2:03:44 PM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>> On 1/10/2024 2:04 PM, Tom Kunich proved once again I live rent free in
>>>> his head:
>>>>> Using Dura Ace 7800 components except for the mid length arm `105 rear derailleur I find that the dear spacings on an 11-36 to be very comfortable. Why 11 speeds should feel so much different than 10 is pretty surprising but it does. With the 12 speed with an 11-34 I simply don't think about shifting because I haven't used the bottom three gears except on steep descents and then rarely pedal it but just use it for stability.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course flunky doesn't know anything about that sort of thing and proclaims that it doesn't exist. but then again you have to remember that Liebermann agrees with him which automatically means Flunky is wrong.
>>>> Pedaling on high speed descents does not give you more stability. If
>>>> that were true, you wouldn't see this:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OKUuyKRSAw
>>>>
>>>> All four examples in that video show the same thing - the rider pedals
>>>> to keep the speed and stops pedaling when they spin out. If they needed
>>>> to do it for stability, they would pedal constantly.
>>>>
>>>> One pedals on downhills to increase speed, not increase stability.
>>>> That's exactly what Lemond was referring to when he wrote 'you don't
>>>> stop pedaling on a downhill'...it's about speed, making the competotors
>>>> take risks to chase you
>>>>
>>>> You won't find recommendations form professionals/expert descenders that
>>>> state "keep pedaling to maintain stability"
>>>>
>>>> Want more?
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmm-gV21pz4
>>>>
>>>> What to all these rides have in common? they stop pedaling at high speeds.
>>>>
>>>> I seriously have no idea where you come up with these screwball ideas -
>>>> pedaling on downhills increases stability....fer fucks sake.
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't had a chance to try the 36 yet since I haven't been able to climb any real hills. There is this strange effect going on: I used to be able to ride quite slowly but the now I am riding harder to obtain the same result. I suppose that this is because I now use lower gears and have to ride harder to get anywhere in the same amount of time.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am using the 7800 levers rather than the 7900 levers. People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5% of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference. And the sideways exit of shift wires makes shifting easier. That is more important to me than a pretend aero advantage.
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Add xx to reply
>>> After riding a coupler of flat 1000 K you know all about descending.
>> Way more than you.
>> https://www.strava.com/activities/1187349546
>> https://www.strava.com/activities/715945802
>>> Are you sure that you're not Liebermann in disguise?.
>> Are you sure you aren't george santos in disguise?
>> --
>> Add xx to reply
> So, you showing us that 8 years ago you did a ride? 8 years ago, the centuries I did just in the spring were longer and had more climbing. Stop trying to show off complete bullshit and try an act like a real cyclist for a change.

Right tommy, I've only done one ride in the past 8 years
<eyeroll>...what a dipshit:
https://www.strava.com/athlete/training
117 rides in 2023, 907 rides posted since I joined Strava in june of
2016, not all of my rides were posted.

You know what _real_ cyclists don't do? They don't make stupid claims
like 'you have to pedal on downhills for stability' and 'disc brakes are
too powerful', and certain tires have 'too much grip'. I'm sure others
here can bring forward more stupid comments from you that reveal your
ignorance about how to actually ride a bike.

--
Add xx to reply

On Friday, January 12, 2024 at 4:57:58 AM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 1/11/2024 6:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 1:17:46 PM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
> >> On 1/11/2024 2:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 2:03:44 PM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
> >>>> On 1/10/2024 2:04 PM, Tom Kunich proved once again I live rent free in
> >>>> his head:
> >>>>> Using Dura Ace 7800 components except for the mid length arm `105 rear derailleur I find that the dear spacings on an 11-36 to be very comfortable. Why 11 speeds should feel so much different than 10 is pretty surprising but it does. With the 12 speed with an 11-34 I simply don't think about shifting because I haven't used the bottom three gears except on steep descents and then rarely pedal it but just use it for stability.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Of course flunky doesn't know anything about that sort of thing and proclaims that it doesn't exist. but then again you have to remember that Liebermann agrees with him which automatically means Flunky is wrong.
> >>>> Pedaling on high speed descents does not give you more stability. If
> >>>> that were true, you wouldn't see this:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OKUuyKRSAw
> >>>>
> >>>> All four examples in that video show the same thing - the rider pedals
> >>>> to keep the speed and stops pedaling when they spin out. If they needed
> >>>> to do it for stability, they would pedal constantly.
> >>>>
> >>>> One pedals on downhills to increase speed, not increase stability.
> >>>> That's exactly what Lemond was referring to when he wrote 'you don't
> >>>> stop pedaling on a downhill'...it's about speed, making the competotors
> >>>> take risks to chase you
> >>>>
> >>>> You won't find recommendations form professionals/expert descenders that
> >>>> state "keep pedaling to maintain stability"
> >>>>
> >>>> Want more?
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmm-gV21pz4
> >>>>
> >>>> What to all these rides have in common? they stop pedaling at high speeds.
> >>>>
> >>>> I seriously have no idea where you come up with these screwball ideas -
> >>>> pedaling on downhills increases stability....fer fucks sake.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I haven't had a chance to try the 36 yet since I haven't been able to climb any real hills. There is this strange effect going on: I used to be able to ride quite slowly but the now I am riding harder to obtain the same result. I suppose that this is because I now use lower gears and have to ride harder to get anywhere in the same amount of time.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am using the 7800 levers rather than the 7900 levers. People are so interested in "Aero" that they don't realize that only 5% of the people ride fast enough for aerodynamics to make any difference. And the sideways exit of shift wires makes shifting easier. That is more important to me than a pretend aero advantage.
> >>>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Add xx to reply
> >>> After riding a coupler of flat 1000 K you know all about descending.
> >> Way more than you.
> >> https://www.strava.com/activities/1187349546
> >> https://www.strava.com/activities/715945802
> >>> Are you sure that you're not Liebermann in disguise?.
> >> Are you sure you aren't george santos in disguise?
> >> --
> >> Add xx to reply
> > So, you showing us that 8 years ago you did a ride? 8 years ago, the centuries I did just in the spring were longer and had more climbing. Stop trying to show off complete bullshit and try an act like a real cyclist for a change.
> Right tommy, I've only done one ride in the past 8 years
> <eyeroll>...what a dipshit:
> https://www.strava.com/athlete/training
> 117 rides in 2023, 907 rides posted since I joined Strava in june of
> 2016, not all of my rides were posted.
>
> You know what _real_ cyclists don't do? They don't make stupid claims
> like 'you have to pedal on downhills for stability' and 'disc brakes are
> too powerful', and certain tires have 'too much grip'. I'm sure others
> here can bring forward more stupid comments from you that reveal your
> ignorance about how to actually ride a bike.
> --
> Add xx to reply
I have had my Garmin account for three years and have completed 644 rides. Try to learn how to ride Mr. Last Place.