Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 10:49:18 UTC+2:
> On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 1:41:31 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 10:23:25 UTC+2:
> > > On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 1:18:01 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > > >
> > > > All three abrahamic religions, or maybe even all religions get
> > > > lumped together by simple minded people, as if they were the
> > > > same - they are not. Not all political ideologies are the same
> > > > either... Nazis are different from communists etc. (despite all
> > > > of them committing atrocities).
> > > While there are certainly differences of nuance and degree, all
> > > monotheistic religions are much worse than polytheistic ones.
> > >
> > > This is so obvious one can leave the proof as an exercise to
> > > the reader! ;-)
> >
> > I think this is in no way obvious, and thinking of it that way, just
> > shows that you have not thought properly about it. In what way
> > is especially Judaism worse than any of the polytheistic religions?
> > Judaism is much more advanced morally and intellectually imo.
> > The only thing that really bugs me is circumcision.
> You are lost in minutiae. Polytheistic religions are more flexible
> and interesting than monotheistic ones. Much more to choose
> from: more gods, more holidays, more foods, more opportunities
> to mary the persons of one's choices.

Aha... what a load of bullshit... but you are free to believe this.

Surely the polytheistic Romans did not seem to be soooo flexible... or the polytheistic Greeks... or the Indians... not even sure what you mean with "flexible"... One of the most damning parts of our society today is the demand of people to be "flexible"; you know... you don't have any dignity, if you want to survive in a job, you need to be "flexible" ;) I don't want to be flexible or fungible - Dan, you are fungible in your job; but what you have revealed about your taste here is not fungible - this is sth that is very individual. (Sorry I don't have a lot of time right now to word things more correctly)

And if you want evidence on why the monotheistic religions (excluding islam) are more advanced morally just look at the countries in which either Judaism or Christianity was the official religion; they all have better human rights ;)

Why didn't you go to India (or whatever other country) if polytheistic religions are so much better? ;)

>
> dk

Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 13:32:37 UTC+2:
> Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 10:49:18 UTC+2:
> > On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 1:41:31 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > > Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 10:23:25 UTC+2:
> > > > On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 1:18:01 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > All three abrahamic religions, or maybe even all religions get
> > > > > lumped together by simple minded people, as if they were the
> > > > > same - they are not. Not all political ideologies are the same
> > > > > either... Nazis are different from communists etc. (despite all
> > > > > of them committing atrocities).
> > > > While there are certainly differences of nuance and degree, all
> > > > monotheistic religions are much worse than polytheistic ones.
> > > >
> > > > This is so obvious one can leave the proof as an exercise to
> > > > the reader! ;-)
> > >
> > > I think this is in no way obvious, and thinking of it that way, just
> > > shows that you have not thought properly about it. In what way
> > > is especially Judaism worse than any of the polytheistic religions?
> > > Judaism is much more advanced morally and intellectually imo.
> > > The only thing that really bugs me is circumcision.
> > You are lost in minutiae. Polytheistic religions are more flexible
> > and interesting than monotheistic ones. Much more to choose
> > from: more gods, more holidays, more foods, more opportunities
> > to mary the persons of one's choices.
> Aha... what a load of bullshit... but you are free to believe this.
>
> Surely the polytheistic Romans did not seem to be soooo flexible... or the polytheistic Greeks... or the Indians... not even sure what you mean with "flexible"... One of the most damning parts of our society today is the demand of people to be "flexible"; you know... you don't have any dignity, if you want to survive in a job, you need to be "flexible" ;) I don't want to be flexible or fungible - Dan, you are fungible in your job; but what you have revealed about your taste here is not fungible - this is sth that is very individual. (Sorry I don't have a lot of time right now to word things more correctly)
>
> And if you want evidence on why the monotheistic religions (excluding islam) are more advanced morally just look at the countries in which either Judaism or Christianity was the official religion; they all have better human rights ;)
>
> Why didn't you go to India (or whatever other country) if polytheistic religions are so much better? ;)
>
> >
> > dk

Interestingly the most "flexible" religious people when it comes to "adaption" seemed to have been the Jews ;) *monotheistic religion

Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 13:42:05 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 13:32:37 UTC+2:
> > Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 10:49:18 UTC+2:
> > > On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 1:41:31 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > > > Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 10:23:25 UTC+2:
> > > > > On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 1:18:01 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All three abrahamic religions, or maybe even all religions get
> > > > > > lumped together by simple minded people, as if they were the
> > > > > > same - they are not. Not all political ideologies are the same
> > > > > > either... Nazis are different from communists etc. (despite all
> > > > > > of them committing atrocities).
> > > > > While there are certainly differences of nuance and degree, all
> > > > > monotheistic religions are much worse than polytheistic ones.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is so obvious one can leave the proof as an exercise to
> > > > > the reader! ;-)
> > > >
> > > > I think this is in no way obvious, and thinking of it that way, just
> > > > shows that you have not thought properly about it. In what way
> > > > is especially Judaism worse than any of the polytheistic religions?
> > > > Judaism is much more advanced morally and intellectually imo.
> > > > The only thing that really bugs me is circumcision.
> > > You are lost in minutiae. Polytheistic religions are more flexible
> > > and interesting than monotheistic ones. Much more to choose
> > > from: more gods, more holidays, more foods, more opportunities
> > > to mary the persons of one's choices.
> > Aha... what a load of bullshit... but you are free to believe this.
> >
> > Surely the polytheistic Romans did not seem to be soooo flexible... or the polytheistic Greeks... or the Indians... not even sure what you mean with "flexible"... One of the most damning parts of our society today is the demand of people to be "flexible"; you know... you don't have any dignity, if you want to survive in a job, you need to be "flexible" ;) I don't want to be flexible or fungible - Dan, you are fungible in your job; but what you have revealed about your taste here is not fungible - this is sth that is very individual. (Sorry I don't have a lot of time right now to word things more correctly)
> >
> > And if you want evidence on why the monotheistic religions (excluding islam) are more advanced morally just look at the countries in which either Judaism or Christianity was the official religion; they all have better human rights ;)
> >
> > Why didn't you go to India (or whatever other country) if polytheistic religions are so much better? ;)
> >
> > >
> > > dk
> Interestingly the most "flexible" religious people when it comes to "adaption" seemed to have been the Jews ;) *monotheistic religion

Think about Takemitsu and Kurosawa and Ran; Takemitsu was forced to be flexible - "compose music like Mahler", he was not given the chance to compose music that he actually wanted to compose with this film in mind. For me this is barbarity; you cannot force people to sculp art for you; art is always an expression of what lies in oneself - ofc it's still Takemitsu, but he was sort of forced by "the system" to make music he didn't actually have in mind in the first place.

Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 13:42:05 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 13:32:37 UTC+2:
> > Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 10:49:18 UTC+2:
> > > On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 1:41:31 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > > > Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 10:23:25 UTC+2:
> > > > > On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 1:18:01 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All three abrahamic religions, or maybe even all religions get
> > > > > > lumped together by simple minded people, as if they were the
> > > > > > same - they are not. Not all political ideologies are the same
> > > > > > either... Nazis are different from communists etc. (despite all
> > > > > > of them committing atrocities).
> > > > > While there are certainly differences of nuance and degree, all
> > > > > monotheistic religions are much worse than polytheistic ones.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is so obvious one can leave the proof as an exercise to
> > > > > the reader! ;-)
> > > >
> > > > I think this is in no way obvious, and thinking of it that way, just
> > > > shows that you have not thought properly about it. In what way
> > > > is especially Judaism worse than any of the polytheistic religions?
> > > > Judaism is much more advanced morally and intellectually imo.
> > > > The only thing that really bugs me is circumcision.
> > > You are lost in minutiae. Polytheistic religions are more flexible
> > > and interesting than monotheistic ones. Much more to choose
> > > from: more gods, more holidays, more foods, more opportunities
> > > to mary the persons of one's choices.
> > Aha... what a load of bullshit... but you are free to believe this.
> >
> > Surely the polytheistic Romans did not seem to be soooo flexible... or the polytheistic Greeks... or the Indians... not even sure what you mean with "flexible"... One of the most damning parts of our society today is the demand of people to be "flexible"; you know... you don't have any dignity, if you want to survive in a job, you need to be "flexible" ;) I don't want to be flexible or fungible - Dan, you are fungible in your job; but what you have revealed about your taste here is not fungible - this is sth that is very individual. (Sorry I don't have a lot of time right now to word things more correctly)
> >
> > And if you want evidence on why the monotheistic religions (excluding islam) are more advanced morally just look at the countries in which either Judaism or Christianity was the official religion; they all have better human rights ;)
> >
> > Why didn't you go to India (or whatever other country) if polytheistic religions are so much better? ;)
> >
> > >
> > > dk
> Interestingly the most "flexible" religious people when it comes to "adaption" seemed to have been the Jews ;) *monotheistic religion

At the same time, the Jews were also the most resilient.

On 7/5/2023 12:51 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 5:27:38 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 7/4/2023 6:38 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 8:51:31 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The next logical step to transferring travel to trains
>>>> would be to heavily subsidise the cost of the tickets.
>>>
>>> Nope. Make travel free.
>>
>> That's just the extreme case of subsidy, so Andy was not wrong.
>>
>> Better yet, prohibit people from leaving their homes and using
>> carbon based fuels at all. No cooking, just raw organic vegetables.
>> Climate problem solved.
>
> Nope. People transportation is only a fraction of the problem.
> Manufacturing, power generation, goods transportation, etc..
> are bigger factors.
>
> dk

OK, we could go on with this, but it's too silly.

On 7/5/2023 3:29 AM, Herman wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 6:32:20 AM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 7/4/2023 11:53 PM, Herman wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 2:30:39 AM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 7/4/2023 6:48 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>> though I can not understand how a human being can be so literal, non-comprehending, not recognizing context, unless it is a mental illness. Andy? You expertise is required.
>>>
>>> At close to eigthy years one would expect a little self-knowledge, but I guess not on the internet.
>>>
>>> Frank is the guy who in discussion always talked about getting out the dictonary.
>> Only when you misuse words.
>>
>>
>> The absolute literalist.
>>>
>>
>> Using a diction makes one a literalist? LOL!
>
> You have zero self-awareness.
> Pretty sad at your age.
> You have been doing this dictionary routine for years, with anybody,
> whenever you feel like lecturing people, which is most of the time.
>
> This literalist thing is 100% projection on your part.
>

No it's your behavior. It's plain to see. If you can't then you're the one with zero self-awareness. Also, I've done the dictionary thing (as though it's wrong to clarify the meaning of a word by looking it up), I would guess 2-4 times. Prove me wrong.

On 7/5/2023 4:10 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 10:31:38 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
>>
>>
>> Are you even sure the death penalty for Jeanne d'Arc was for apostasy? Any sources?
>
> IIRC the official reason was "apostasy" or
> "heresy". She claimed to have been guided
> by voices and visions, etc... During those
> times it was also considered blasphemy
> for women to wear men's clothes.
>
> The real reasons were clearly political. She
> fell on the wrong side of the power equation
> and paid for it.
>
> Check the Britannica or the Wikipedia.
>
> dk
>

Isn't that very much like using (pardon the dirty word) DICTIONARY?

On 7/5/2023 4:49 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 1:41:31 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
>> Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 5. Juli 2023 um 10:23:25 UTC+2:
>>> On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 1:18:01 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
>>>>
>>>> All three abrahamic religions, or maybe even all religions get
>>>> lumped together by simple minded people, as if they were the
>>>> same - they are not. Not all political ideologies are the same
>>>> either... Nazis are different from communists etc. (despite all
>>>> of them committing atrocities).
>>> While there are certainly differences of nuance and degree, all
>>> monotheistic religions are much worse than polytheistic ones.
>>>
>>> This is so obvious one can leave the proof as an exercise to
>>> the reader! ;-)
>>
>> I think this is in no way obvious, and thinking of it that way, just
>> shows that you have not thought properly about it. In what way
>> is especially Judaism worse than any of the polytheistic religions?
>> Judaism is much more advanced morally and intellectually imo.
>> The only thing that really bugs me is circumcision.
>
Imagine how Jews feel about it. Have you ever attended a Bris (ritual circumcision)? There is dual "vibe." Pride and Joy at entering a child into the fold and tension/pity over the pain that the infant is going to go through. The fact is, though, that the baby usually starts crying as soon as he is on his back and exposed. When the snip occurs, you often can't even hear in increase in intensity of the crying. Not that it doesn't hurt. I've the opposite, where the baby is perfectly happy until the snip. The baby is given a wine-soaked cloth to suck on which districts him and presumably anesthetic. I've never seen a baby cry at a bris for money than a minute or so. It doesn't seem as though it bothers them any more than a wet or dirty diaper. I don't know if there's research on this. I've seen people say why do we do this brutal thing to our boys, answer it's because my father did it do me and I'm going to get even by doing it to my son. Really. Why do we really do it? Because the Torah says so. I don't know liberal (Reform, Reconstructionist) have different attitudes toward circumcision and if a significant number of them don't practice it. The Orthodox would never imagine not circumcising their boys. When the Soviet Union finally started Jews emigrate, very few were observant, yet thousands (I can't prove this) of grown Jewish men who had not been circumcised (it was illegal in the SU) had themselves circumcised when they had the freedom to do so. When I lived in Dallas I was close with quite a few Russian Jews and know this to be a fact. I certainly would expect and understand an atheist to think the practice is cruel and barbaric. Tough.
> You are lost in minutiae. Polytheistic religions are more flexible
> and interesting than monotheistic ones. Much more to choose
> from: more gods, more holidays, more foods, more opportunities
> to mary the persons of one's choices.
>
> dk

On 7/5/2023 5:05 AM, HT wrote:
> Op woensdag 5 juli 2023 om 00:31:17 UTC+2 schreef number_six:
>> On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 11:59:48 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
>>> I'm not optimistic. In the Netherlands, we intend to invest EUR 28 billion, among other measures, to mitigate global warming. It is expected that this investment will reduce global warming by 0,000036 degrees.
>>>
>>> If the rest of the world doesn't do its share and we fail to reduce global warming by 1 degree, we will have wasted away 350.000 thousand life-years, at a cost of Euro 80 thousand per year.
>>>
>>> Henk
>> "It is expected..." -- interesting moment to shift to passive voice.
>> What's your confidence level in those estimates?
>
> These figures are from the government. It wants to get its plans (some even speak about EUR 35 billion) through parliament. They're probably on the optimistic side, even if everything goes according to plan ... But nothing does these last 10 years.
>
> Henk

It is insane for one country to impoverish people to that extent without an agreement or expectation that the large polluters will follow suit.

On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 11:59:48 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
>
> In the Netherlands, we intend to invest EUR 28 billion,
> among other measures, to mitigate global warming. It
> is expected that this investment will reduce global
> warming by 0,000036 degrees.
>
> If the rest of the world doesn't do its share and we fail
> to reduce global warming by 1 degree, we will have
> wasted away 350.000 thousand life-years, at a cost
> of Euro 80 thousand per year.

The most efficient and cost effective method to lower
global temperatures by 1-3 degrees is to trigger an
erruption of a large super-volcano. As you probably
know such events happened in the past and were
quite effective in lowering temperatures for a few
years. The Netherlands needs to start building its
own super-volcanoes rather than merely rely on its
colonies.

Cheers,

dk

Op woensdag 5 juli 2023 om 23:21:58 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
> On 7/5/2023 5:05 AM, HT wrote:
> > Op woensdag 5 juli 2023 om 00:31:17 UTC+2 schreef number_six:
> >> On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 11:59:48 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
> >>> I'm not optimistic. In the Netherlands, we intend to invest EUR 28 billion, among other measures, to mitigate global warming. It is expected that this investment will reduce global warming by 0,000036 degrees.
> >>>
> >>> If the rest of the world doesn't do its share and we fail to reduce global warming by 1 degree, we will have wasted away 350.000 thousand life-years, at a cost of Euro 80 thousand per year.
> >>>
> >>> Henk
> >> "It is expected..." -- interesting moment to shift to passive voice.
> >> What's your confidence level in those estimates?
> >
> > These figures are from the government. It wants to get its plans (some even speak about EUR 35 billion) through parliament. They're probably on the optimistic side, even if everything goes according to plan ... But nothing does these last 10 years.
> >
> > Henk
> It is insane for one country to impoverish people to that extent without an agreement or expectation that the large polluters will follow suit.

We pretend to be a guiding nation. It comes at a cost, but it allows our politicians to wag an admonishing finger at their colleagues from other countries. So we heard (slightly more diplomatically formulated) from the minister responsible for climate etc. BTW, rumor goes that parliament has its doubts and asked for more concrete plans. We'll see.

Similar to Andy, I believe in man-made climate change. If I understand him correctly, he has more faith in homo sapiens than I have. He believes us capable of being better than we are.

Henk

On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 3:16:46 PM UTC-7, HT wrote:
>
> Similar to Andy, I believe in man-made climate change. If I
> understand him correctly, he has more faith in homo sapiens
> than I have. He believes us capable of being better than we are.

Andy needs to work harder on polishing his mirror.

dk

In article <874827c9-6b1f-40a3-acc9-9092f8b8c9b7n@googlegroups.com>,
HT <hvtuijl@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>Similar to Andy, I believe in man-made climate change. If I
>understand him correctly, he has more faith in homo sapiens than
>I have. He believes us capable of being better than we are.

I don't know about Andy, but speaking for myself, when the stakes
get high enough, believing in success isn't necessary for wanting
to do my best toward the good outcome. Although believing in success
generally does help one do whatever one is trying to do....

Moreover, I wouldn't say that there is one human nature, but rather
a variety of human natures, people being groomed along different
paths, sometimes at cross purposes.... "Human nature" is not static,
and people in other times & places have been able to make very
different choices from the ones our society seems to be making.

Op woensdag 5 juli 2023 om 23:43:14 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:

> The most efficient and cost effective method to lower
> global temperatures by 1-3 degrees is to trigger an
> erruption of a large super-volcano. As you probably
> know such events happened in the past and were
> quite effective in lowering temperatures for a few
> years. The Netherlands needs to start building its
> own super-volcanoes rather than merely rely on its
> colonies.

It's an ingenious plan. We know how to cause earthquakes in Groningen. There is no practical reason why we couldn't build erupting super-vulcanoes over there.

However, we are dealing with politicians. They believe that the only way to lower temperature is by lowering carbon emissions. I cannot see them accepting alternative ways.

I certainly don't see them accepting alternative ways that increase carbon emissions. As you know, eruptions don't decrease but increase the amount of carbon in the atmosphere.

Henk

On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 3:58:24 PM UTC-7, HT wrote:
> Op woensdag 5 juli 2023 om 23:43:14 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:
>
> > The most efficient and cost effective method to lower
> > global temperatures by 1-3 degrees is to trigger an
> > erruption of a large super-volcano. As you probably
> > know such events happened in the past and were
> > quite effective in lowering temperatures for a few
> > years. The Netherlands needs to start building its
> > own super-volcanoes rather than merely rely on its
> > colonies.
>
> It's an ingenious plan.

Completely obvious. Inject water into a volcano's
magma chamber at very high pressure (3k to 5k
psi). The water boils/evaporates in contact with
the magma, and the steam pressure blows off
the top of the volcano, opening a path of least
resistance for an erruption. Rinse and repeat.

> We know how to cause earthquakes in Groningen.

Can you try to do this in London?

> There is no practical reason why we couldn't
> build erupting super-vulcanoes over there.

No need to build new ones. There are plenty of
used volcanoes lying around sitting idle, just
reuse them. Second hand is always cheaper.

> However, we are dealing with politicians. They
> believe that the only way to lower temperature
> is by lowering carbon emissions. I cannot see
> them accepting alternative ways.

Take the politicians on a volcano seeing tour,
then pull the trigger as they peek inside the
calderas. They will be convinced instantly.
> I certainly don't see them accepting alternative
> ways that increase carbon emissions.

See above.

> As you know, eruptions don't decrease but
> increase the amount of carbon in the
> atmosphere.

Non-sense. Volcanoes don't blow CO2. They
blow other friendly gasses, such as SO2.
Please review your chemistry.

dk

On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 3:16:46 PM UTC-7, HT wrote:
>
> We pretend to be a guiding nation.

The Netherlands definitely did a
bang up job leading in Indonesia.

Imagine how confused those poor
souls would have been without the
Dutch managing their oil and their
minerals -- or defending them from
the Japanese.

dk

On Wednesday, 5 July 2023 at 23:44:22 UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> Andy needs to work harder on polishing his mirror.
>
> dk

No response.

Op donderdag 6 juli 2023 om 00:44:22 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:
> On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 3:16:46 PM UTC-7, HT wrote:
> >
> > Similar to Andy, I believe in man-made climate change. If I
> > understand him correctly, he has more faith in homo sapiens
> > than I have. He believes us capable of being better than we are.
> Andy needs to work harder on polishing his mirror.

Unlike you and me, he'll see an enchanted being. Like all who are related to the birthplace of Under the Milkwood, however slightly.

Henk

On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 1:31:53 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
>
> > Andy needs to work harder on polishing his mirror.
>
> Unlike you and me, he'll see an enchanted being.

If so, he doesn't even need a mirror.

dk

On Thursday, 6 July 2023 at 09:31:53 UTC+1, HT wrote:
> Unlike you and me, he'll see an enchanted being. Like all who are related to the birthplace of Under the Milkwood, however slightly.
>
> Henk

That's very complimentary! My family was quite steeped in the atmosphere of Under Milkwood. My father playing Bach like Organ Morgan, and we always had boats and caught mackerel. My father, as I mentioned, was taught English by Dylan Thomas's father and they all lived in Swansea. My grandfather was a Welsh preacher so plenty of rhetoric from the pulpit as well. I find Thomas's poetry too verbose in general, but a lot of it is striking and beautiful. I'm proud to be Welsh and I do like the people a lot. They're warm and compassionate and good singers. They have a certain mystical side but it' been superseded by too many hamburgers and Country and Western karaoke nights.

Op donderdag 6 juli 2023 om 11:11:14 UTC+2 schreef Andy Evans:
> On Thursday, 6 July 2023 at 09:31:53 UTC+1, HT wrote:
> > Unlike you and me, he'll see an enchanted being. Like all who are related to the birthplace of Under the Milkwood, however slightly.
> >
> > Henk
> That's very complimentary! My family was quite steeped in the atmosphere of Under Milkwood. My father playing Bach like Organ Morgan, and we always had boats and caught mackerel. My father, as I mentioned, was taught English by Dylan Thomas's father and they all lived in Swansea. My grandfather was a Welsh preacher so plenty of rhetoric from the pulpit as well. I find Thomas's poetry too verbose in general, but a lot of it is striking and beautiful. I'm proud to be Welsh and I do like the people a lot. They're warm and compassionate and good singers. They have a certain mystical side but it' been superseded by too many hamburgers and Country and Western karaoke nights.

When I first heard Under Milkwood on the radio (it took several broadcasts, IIRC), I was smitten. First by the sound and later by the imagery. And eventually by the film/documentary that completed the experience. It still comes back to me, from time to time - not exactly as it was but as a vague impression.

Henk

Op donderdag 6 juli 2023 om 00:56:50 UTC+2 schreef Todd M. McComb:

> Moreover, I wouldn't say that there is one human nature, but rather
> a variety of human natures, people being groomed along different
> paths, sometimes at cross purposes.... "Human nature" is not static,
> and people in other times & places have been able to make very
> different choices from the ones our society seems to be making.

There is Darwin's differentiation between population and individuals.

In the early days of Christianity, a Jew already made that distinction: "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

He offers a religious explanation for this view. We only have to look at history. All religion and all '-isms' intend(ed) to bring about the best but more harm than good in the end.

Some outcomes are ironic, to say the least. A French sociologist recently discovered that theology itself is the primary cause of secularity, by fulfilling its intended purpose of explaining God.

Henk

On Thursday, 6 July 2023 at 12:16:29 UTC+1, HT wrote:
> All religion and all '-isms' intend(ed) to bring about the best but more harm than good in the end.
> > Henk

Probably the biggest draw towards religions, apart from trying to explain the inexplicable, is the opportunity of an afterlife.

In practical terms though, going to some kind of church can improve your social life and offer an hour of decent live music on a Sunday, together with a collective feeling of worthiness.

As Alexander Pope wrote:

"Some to church repair,
Not for the doctrine, but the music there".

> In practical terms though, going to some kind of church can improve your social life and offer an hour of decent live music on a Sunday, together with a collective feeling of worthiness.
>
> As Alexander Pope wrote:
>
> "Some to church repair,
> Not for the doctrine, but the music there".

In the 1920-30s Germans lamented the fact that there was no mystery anymore in their lives. That got a nasty turn when the Nazis adopted that notion.

This poses a problem, since then. How to escape disenchantment, the loss of a notion of the 'holy', without getting caught up in something you want to avoid.

My first interest in music came from listening to music in a church. I've much to be grateful for.

Henk

On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 10:53:51 AM UTC+1, HT wrote:
> Op donderdag 6 juli 2023 om 11:11:14 UTC+2 schreef Andy Evans:
> > On Thursday, 6 July 2023 at 09:31:53 UTC+1, HT wrote:
> > > Unlike you and me, he'll see an enchanted being. Like all who are related to the birthplace of Under the Milkwood, however slightly.
> > >
> > > Henk
> > That's very complimentary! My family was quite steeped in the atmosphere of Under Milkwood. My father playing Bach like Organ Morgan, and we always had boats and caught mackerel. My father, as I mentioned, was taught English by Dylan Thomas's father and they all lived in Swansea. My grandfather was a Welsh preacher so plenty of rhetoric from the pulpit as well. I find Thomas's poetry too verbose in general, but a lot of it is striking and beautiful. I'm proud to be Welsh and I do like the people a lot. They're warm and compassionate and good singers. They have a certain mystical side but it' been superseded by too many hamburgers and Country and Western karaoke nights.
> When I first heard Under Milkwood on the radio (it took several broadcasts, IIRC), I was smitten. First by the sound and later by the imagery. And eventually by the film/documentary that completed the experience. It still comes back to me, from time to time - not exactly as it was but as a vague impression.
>
> Henk

Try this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPXx1tk0ACs&ab_channel=BennyTheBouncer