If you don’t have broadband (aka the British Standard Elderly Person) it
looks like you can keep the copper fed landline until 2030:

https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/26/bt_begins_big_switchover_ahead/

But some customers do not have broadband, and don't want it (yes, there are
some, believe it or not). These customers will not be switched to a digital
landline "until they are able to," BT said.

We asked what this meant, and the company told us that customers without
access to broadband, will be offered a "Pre Digital Landline" service,
where equipment will be installed in the local telephone exchange allowing
them to continue to use their old phone line as before.

This will be available from late 2024 and is designed to provide "interim
connectivity" until sometime around 2030, when customers will be required
to move over to Digital Voice or an alternative. So refuseniks have until
then to decide what they want to do.

On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 13:11:22 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>If you don’t have broadband (aka the British Standard Elderly Person) it
>looks like you can keep the copper fed landline until 2030:
>
>https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/26/bt_begins_big_switchover_ahead/
>

You shouldn't assume that all older people aren't interested in
technology or in keeping up with it.

On 26/09/2023 14:11, Tweed wrote:
> If you don’t have broadband (aka the British Standard Elderly Person) it
> looks like you can keep the copper fed landline until 2030:
>
> https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/26/bt_begins_big_switchover_ahead/
>
> But some customers do not have broadband, and don't want it (yes, there are
> some, believe it or not). These customers will not be switched to a digital
> landline "until they are able to," BT said.
>
> We asked what this meant, and the company told us that customers without
> access to broadband, will be offered a "Pre Digital Landline" service,
> where equipment will be installed in the local telephone exchange allowing
> them to continue to use their old phone line as before.
>

I note there is no promise that the price for this will remain the same.
As additional equipment is being installed, is this just an ATA in the
exchange, so its really a digital service under the covers...

...

> This will be available from late 2024 and is designed to provide "interim
> connectivity" until sometime around 2030, when customers will be required
> to move over to Digital Voice or an alternative. So refuseniks have until
> then to decide what they want to do.
>
>

So what happens if BT remove your exchange before then ?

Dave

On 26/09/2023 15:54, Peter Johnson wrote:
> You shouldn't assume that all older people aren't interested in
> technology or in keeping up with it.

Just look at the young chavs with their iPhones etc, all that matters is
that it is the latest fashionable model and the latest colour.

Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2023 13:11:22 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If you don’t have broadband (aka the British Standard Elderly Person) it
>> looks like you can keep the copper fed landline until 2030:
>>
>> https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/26/bt_begins_big_switchover_ahead/
>>
>
> You shouldn't assume that all older people aren't interested in
> technology or in keeping up with it.
>

I don’t make that assumption, but many keep trotting out the elderly person
in arguments against change. Hence the British Standard moniker. Every
elderly person (ie those older than me!) I know is an avid user of the
Internet.

Am 26.09.2023 um 13:11:22 Uhr schrieb Tweed:

> If you don’t have broadband (aka the British Standard Elderly Person)
> it looks like you can keep the copper fed landline until 2030:
>
> https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/26/bt_begins_big_switchover_ahead/
>
> But some customers do not have broadband, and don't want it (yes,
> there are some, believe it or not).

My grandparent don't want internet at all. I also know other people who
don't want it and still have POTS.

> These customers will not be switched to a digital landline "until
> they are able to," BT said.
>
> We asked what this meant, and the company told us that customers
> without access to broadband, will be offered a "Pre Digital Landline"
> service, where equipment will be installed in the local telephone
> exchange allowing them to continue to use their old phone line as
> before.

Same solution as in Germany.

> This will be available from late 2024 and is designed to provide
> "interim connectivity" until sometime around 2030, when customers
> will be required to move over to Digital Voice or an alternative. So
> refuseniks have until then to decide what they want to do.

I don't think that there will be many by 2030.
Most people born in the 40s already have internet and they will
already be over 80 then.

Am 26.09.2023 um 16:03:58 Uhr schrieb David Wade:

> I note there is no promise that the price for this will remain the
> same. As additional equipment is being installed, is this just an ATA
> in the exchange, so its really a digital service under the covers...

Doesn't that apply for any digital exchange?

Germany replaced all analog exchanges with digital ones until the end
of the 90s.
Customers could still use analog line, but only to the exchange. After
that, everything was digital.

Marco Moock wrote:

> Germany replaced all analog exchanges with digital ones until the end
> of the 90s.
> Customers could still use analog line, but only to the exchange. After
> that, everything was digital.

You think the UK didn't too?

On Tue 26/09/2023 16:27, Marco Moock wrote:
> Am 26.09.2023 um 16:03:58 Uhr schrieb David Wade:
>
>> I note there is no promise that the price for this will remain the
>> same. As additional equipment is being installed, is this just an ATA
>> in the exchange, so its really a digital service under the covers...
>
> Doesn't that apply for any digital exchange?
>
> Germany replaced all analog exchanges with digital ones until the end
> of the 90s.
> Customers could still use analog line, but only to the exchange. After
> that, everything was digital.
>
Per the last sentence, isn't that how we in the UK have been in the main
for the better part of 30 years if not more?

On 26/09/2023 18:15, Andy Burns wrote:
> Marco Moock wrote:
>
>> Germany replaced all analog exchanges with digital ones until the end
>> of the 90s.
>> Customers could still use analog line, but only to the exchange. After
>> that, everything was digital.
>
> You think the UK didn't too?
>
System X was in the 1980s

All digital past the exchange.

Deutsche Telekom bought the Deutsche Bundepost which was a pile of
worse than BT nationalised SHIT.

Germany has had probably the worst broadband in Europe for decades

--
The higher up the mountainside
The greener grows the grass.
The higher up the monkey climbs
The more he shows his arse.

Traditional

On 26/09/2023 18:19, Woody wrote:
> On Tue 26/09/2023 16:27, Marco Moock wrote:
>> Am 26.09.2023 um 16:03:58 Uhr schrieb David Wade:
>>
>>> I note there is no promise that the price for this will remain the
>>> same. As additional equipment is being installed, is this just an ATA
>>> in the exchange, so its really a digital service under the covers...
>>
>> Doesn't that apply for any digital exchange?
>>
>> Germany replaced all analog exchanges with digital ones until the end
>> of the 90s.
>> Customers could still use analog line, but only to the exchange. After
>> that, everything was digital.
>>
> Per the last sentence, isn't that how we in the UK have been in the main
> for the better part of 30 years if not more?

40 years since the first system X exchange went in and an all digital
backbone was rolled out

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
-- Yogi Berra

> 40 years since the first system X exchange went in and an all
> digital backbone was rolled out

Indeed, although the difference in Germany is many or all lines became ISDN so
technically digital, while here your ancient analogue telephones rented from
the Post Office continued to work when connected to a digital exchange and ISDN
was optional.

The BT decision to continue supporting POTS for a few more years means the
lines will be connected to an ADSL DSLAM that also does VoIP, common in other
parts of the world where not almost everyone is within five miles of a
telephone exchange.

And also used in the UK by Virgin Media who have digital concentrators in tall
green cabinets everywhere often 20 or 30 miles from the actual exchange.

Angus

Angus Robertson wrote:

> The BT decision to continue supporting POTS for a few more years means
> the lines will be connected to an ADSL DSLAM that also does VoIP, common
> in other parts of the world where not almost everyone is within five
> miles of a telephone exchange.

Feels like a crazy, late in the day, scheme by BT ...

Am 26.09.2023 um 19:13:02 Uhr schrieb The Natural Philosopher:

> On 26/09/2023 18:15, Andy Burns wrote:
> > Marco Moock wrote:
> >
> >> Germany replaced all analog exchanges with digital ones until the
> >> end of the 90s.
> >> Customers could still use analog line, but only to the exchange.
> >> After that, everything was digital.
> >
> > You think the UK didn't too?
> >
> System X was in the 1980s
>
> All digital past the exchange.
>
> Deutsche Telekom bought the Deutsche Bundepost which was a pile of
> worse than BT nationalised SHIT.

True, they forbid using your own devices and slowed down development
of modem speeds.
The good thing: I only know that from history, I was born after
telecommunication has been liberalized.

> Germany has had probably the worst broadband in Europe for decades

We still have.
Although, the Bundespost isn't the only reason. Bureaucracy is. If you
want to dig a trench, many parts of the government have to allow that
and they take a long time to do that.
When erecting a cellular tower, the same procedure has to be done. On
top people exist that fear radiation and are against 5G stations in the
city.

Am 26.09.2023 um 18:15:11 Uhr schrieb Andy Burns:

> Marco Moock wrote:
>
> > Germany replaced all analog exchanges with digital ones until the
> > end of the 90s.
> > Customers could still use analog line, but only to the exchange.
> > After that, everything was digital.
>
> You think the UK didn't too?

I know they did, but I simply wanna to make clear that "analog line"
has been only analog until the exchange for decades and that won't
much change with MSAN.

Am 26.09.2023 um 18:19:47 Uhr schrieb Woody:

> Per the last sentence, isn't that how we in the UK have been in the
> main for the better part of 30 years if not more?

Digital exchanges provided much more features (including ISDN over 2
wire UK0) without reducing the service compared to analog mechanical
exchanges, so it was a huge advantage.

Am 26.09.2023 um 19:30:00 Uhr schrieb Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems
Ltd:

> > 40 years since the first system X exchange went in and an all
> > digital backbone was rolled out
>
> Indeed, although the difference in Germany is many or all lines
> became ISDN so technically digital, while here your ancient analogue
> telephones rented from the Post Office continued to work when
> connected to a digital exchange and ISDN was optional.

In Germany, Siemens EWSD and Alcatel S12 were used.
They did ISDN internally and gave normal household the possibility to
use 2 B channels over the Uk0 bus (2 wire). Analog service including
pulse dialing was still available and people were silently migrated to
that when they didn't explicit order ISDN.
The price for ISDN was higher and many people still had analog phones.

ISDN was widespread in private households here, but POTS was still
the most used technique, especially when ADSL was sold with POTS, first
it was only available together with ISDN.

> The BT decision to continue supporting POTS for a few more years
> means the lines will be connected to an ADSL DSLAM that also does
> VoIP, common in other parts of the world where not almost everyone is
> within five miles of a telephone exchange.

In Germany, that is called an MSAN linecard.
It is quite common here, especially old people use it.

Am 26.09.2023 um 19:35:18 Uhr schrieb Andy Burns:

> Angus Robertson wrote:
>
> > The BT decision to continue supporting POTS for a few more years
> > means the lines will be connected to an ADSL DSLAM that also does
> > VoIP, common in other parts of the world where not almost everyone
> > is within five miles of a telephone exchange.
>
> Feels like a crazy, late in the day, scheme by BT ...

It is the more comfortable solution for them.
Instead they would need to migrate hundred thousands of customers to
VoIP. That will probably make many of them angry because they don't
understand the reason.

Marco Moock wrote:

> schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>
>> Deutsche Telekom bought the Deutsche Bundepost which was a pile of
>> worse than BT nationalised SHIT.
>
> True, they forbid using your own devices and slowed down development
> of modem speeds.

We used to have BABT stickers with green circles on devices that were
allowed to be connected to phone lines, or red triangles for devices
that weren't allowed.

Marco Moock wrote:

> schrieb Andy Burns:
>
>> Feels like a crazy, late in the day, scheme by BT ...
>
> It is the more comfortable solution for them.
> Instead they would need to migrate hundred thousands of customers to
> VoIP. That will probably make many of them angry because they don't
> understand the reason.

Some of the customers will die between 2025 and 2030, but not all of
them ...

On 26/09/2023 19:30, Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd wrote:
>> 40 years since the first system X exchange went in and an all
>> digital backbone was rolled out
>
> Indeed, although the difference in Germany is many or all lines became ISDN so
> technically digital, while here your ancient analogue telephones rented from
> the Post Office continued to work when connected to a digital exchange and ISDN
> was optional.
>
> The BT decision to continue supporting POTS for a few more years means the
> lines will be connected to an ADSL DSLAM that also does VoIP, common in other
> parts of the world where not almost everyone is within five miles of a
> telephone exchange.

I dont think so. ADSL is effectively dead. People not on VDSL to a green
cabinet will either have FTTP or no land broadband at all - friend
restoring a remote house in Scotland says BT will not install anything
broadband capable at all. He runs using a mobile phone as a wifi
hotpoint. DSLAMS *in the exchanges* are the thing BT is trying to get
rid of in the first place.
>
> And also used in the UK by Virgin Media who have digital concentrators in tall
> green cabinets everywhere often 20 or 30 miles from the actual exchange.
>
The 'green concentrators' do not talk to *exchanges*, they talk to
regionals data centres over fibres.

Fibre these days can and does do up to 30 miles without needing a booster

Its the local exchanges that are going to be obsoleted. The 'ADSL up to
5 miles 'is dead. Largely because the gummint & OFCOM decreed that BT
had to meet targets a lot faster than that could manage.

And those exchanges cost money, and everyone has a mobile anyway.

--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."

- Stephen Vizinczey

On 26/09/2023 20:59, Marco Moock wrote:
> Am 26.09.2023 um 19:13:02 Uhr schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>
>> On 26/09/2023 18:15, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Marco Moock wrote:
>>>
>>>> Germany replaced all analog exchanges with digital ones until the
>>>> end of the 90s.
>>>> Customers could still use analog line, but only to the exchange.
>>>> After that, everything was digital.
>>>
>>> You think the UK didn't too?
>>>
>> System X was in the 1980s
>>
>> All digital past the exchange.
>>
>> Deutsche Telekom bought the Deutsche Bundepost which was a pile of
>> worse than BT nationalised SHIT.
>
> True, they forbid using your own devices and slowed down development
> of modem speeds.
> The good thing: I only know that from history, I was born after
> telecommunication has been liberalized.
>
>> Germany has had probably the worst broadband in Europe for decades
>
> We still have.
> Although, the Bundespost isn't the only reason. Bureaucracy is. If you
> want to dig a trench, many parts of the government have to allow that
> and they take a long time to do that.
> When erecting a cellular tower, the same procedure has to be done. On
> top people exist that fear radiation and are against 5G stations in the
> city.
>
And yet they dont mind having unbelievably environmentally damaging
solar farms and windfarms that pretend to generate electricity when its
all down to coal, gas and (was) nuclear power.

--
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

—Soren Kierkegaard

On 26/09/2023 21:33, Andy Burns wrote:
> Marco Moock wrote:
>
>> schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>
>>> Deutsche Telekom bought  the  Deutsche Bundepost  which was a pile of
>>> worse than BT nationalised SHIT.
>>
>> True, they forbid using your own devices and slowed down development
>> of modem speeds.
>
> We used to have BABT stickers with green circles on devices that were
> allowed to be connected to phone lines, or red triangles for devices
> that weren't allowed.
>
A friend of mine built a 'smart' phone back in the day that connected to
BT landlines.

BT was so paranoid that they measured the characteristics of an old
carbon microphone handset, published the impedances of THAT and said
'make it look like that or you wont get certified' .

For years people were adding redundant resistors and chokes and
capacitors to make their phones 'look like' what BT kit expected.

--
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

—Soren Kierkegaard

On 26/09/2023 21:01, Marco Moock wrote:
> Am 26.09.2023 um 18:19:47 Uhr schrieb Woody:
>
>> Per the last sentence, isn't that how we in the UK have been in the
>> main for the better part of 30 years if not more?
>
> Digital exchanges provided much more features (including ISDN over 2
> wire UK0) without reducing the service compared to analog mechanical
> exchanges, so it was a huge advantage.
>
yes, and now its time to move on. BT's backbone was ATM, but they are
increasingly moving to IP over fibre. System x more or less guaranteed
64kbps per phone line. 21CN offers way more than that per fibre, but
with no guarantees. Voice is peanuts bandwidth wise. 64kbps
uncompressed, Maybe 5kbps with compression. Although Fax doesnt like that.

--
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
wrong.

H.L.Mencken

Am 26.09.2023 um 21:33:09 Uhr schrieb Andy Burns:

> We used to have BABT stickers with green circles on devices that were
> allowed to be connected to phone lines, or red triangles for devices
> that weren't allowed.

Such a system existed in Germany too. Devices needed to be verified and
then they were allowed to be connected to the public network, but only
after 1989.

Before, only people with their own telephone exchange (only
companies had one) were allowed to use their own devices.

The same devices were sold under different names to the Bundespost and
they rented them to private people.