On 27/09/2023 10:35, Marco Moock wrote:
>> If BT can ensure their existing telephone continues working even when
>> the electricity supply is lost then they will not mind.
> Most people don't know that and don't care.

With media coverage in the last year or so, people are starting to realise.

It will get a lot of publicity next time there is a major electricity
supply fault with many people losing their supply for days and their
mobile phones stopping working.

Marco Moock wrote:

> schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>
>> I have known places where the only way to get on the internet was
>> a dial up modem.
>
> Does that still work in UK?

<http://www.webandmail.co.uk/free-internet-access.asp>

Of course 'free' just means the cost appears on your phone bill

On 27/09/2023 13:08, David Woolley wrote:
> On 26/09/2023 16:25, Marco Moock wrote:
>> My grandparent don't want internet at all. I also know other people who
>> don't want it and still have POTS.
>
> They don't need to know that it is implemented using internet
> technologies (probably not actually The Internet).  In fact they cannot
> avoid that, as, even if the retain the analogue presentation, the calls
> will still go over the Digital Voice infrastructure.

I am not sure that they will: BT seems to be going 100% IP on their
backbones
It makes far more sense to route across their internal IP network that
convert to 64k fixed bandwidth streams and back

--
“it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.”

Vaclav Klaus

On 27/09/2023 11:13, Tweed wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 27/09/2023 10:13, JMB99 wrote:
>>> On 26/09/2023 21:07, Marco Moock wrote:
>>>> It is the more comfortable solution for them. Instead they would need
>>>> to migrate hundred thousands of customers to VoIP. That will probably
>>>> make many of them angry because they don't understand the reason.
>>>
>>>
>>> It will make many angry because they have a telephone that has worked
>>> perfectly well for years and don't see why they should change when no
>>> improvement to them.
>>>
>> They will be able to pug their old phone into a port on a BT NTU (FTTP)
>> or VDSL (FTTC) router and will never notice the difference expxept line
>> quality will be way better
>>
>>> If BT can ensure their existing telephone continues working even when
>>> the electricity supply is lost then they will not mind.
>>>
>> with FTTP its battery backup on the NTU - optional and rather expensive
>> extra.
>>
>>
>>
>
> OpenReach and the Altnets need to sit down together to design a proper
> standardised backup battery system. As I see it, there is a need for two
> Lithium Ion battery packs - one that kicks in immediately to cover short
> term power outages and one that only activates when a button is pressed.
> The latter can be used to power up the equipment when that fabled emergency
> call needs to be made during a prolonged outage. Easily doable for around
> £100 or less. It’s a lot cheaper than trying to continue with a 50V low
> voltage power distribution network, which is what keeping the current
> system boils down to.

I dont know how much power a fibre NTE takes but its not a lot At most 5W.
But I guess for 24hours that's 120Wh which at 12v or thereabouts is
around 10Ah.
That is a fairly chunky battery. One would probably prefer a lead acid
for that sort of usage

--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

On 27/09/2023 11:42, Marco Moock wrote:
> Am 27.09.2023 um 10:55:38 Uhr schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>
>> I have known places where the only way to get on the internet was a
>> dial up modem.
>
> Does that still work in UK?
>
It did a few years back

BT stopped it in 2013.

Not sure if anyone still implements it

People now tend to use Mobile which is faster

--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

On 27/09/2023 13:49, JMB99 wrote:
> On 27/09/2023 10:37, Marco Moock wrote:
>> That guy needs a fax machine and most people don't have one. Here in
>> Germany, fax machines were mostly used by business, not by normal
>> citizen.
>
>
> But it was often easier for a business user to scribble a note and FAX
> to another business user.  They would probably now send a text message
> but that takes a lot more time.
>
>
I knew a guy that insisted his emails were printed out and handed to him

--
Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
that they are dead.
Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

Am 27.09.2023 um 14:01:36 Uhr schrieb The Natural Philosopher:

> It makes far more sense to route across their internal IP network
> that convert to 64k fixed bandwidth streams and back

Of course. That amount of traffic is very low compared to anything else
and the infrastructure is there.

On 27/09/2023 13:56, Andy Burns wrote:
>
> Marco Moock wrote:
>
>> schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>
>>> I have known places where the only way to get on the internet was
>>> a dial up modem.
>>
>> Does that still work in UK?
>
> <http://www.webandmail.co.uk/free-internet-access.asp>
>
> Of course 'free' just means the cost appears on your phone bill

Wow. I thought there *might* be someone out there...

--
Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
that they are dead.
Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

Am 27.09.2023 um 13:08:50 Uhr schrieb David Woolley:

> They don't need to know that it is implemented using internet
> technologies (probably not actually The Internet).

As long as their analog line into their house still exists, it is fine
for them.

> In fact they cannot avoid that, as, even if the retain the analogue
> presentation, the calls will still go over the Digital Voice
> infrastructure.

That was the case since the switch to digital exchanges in the 80s/90s.
Analog lines were still available and people didn't even notice that
change. The dialing tone changed, but that was all.

If a customer need to change things, the anger begins, especially when
they have no technical experience and now need to install a router,
when they never plugged a phone for 20 years.

On 27/09/2023 13:53, JMB99 wrote:
> It will get a lot of publicity next time there is a major electricity
> supply fault with many people losing their supply for days and their
> mobile phones stopping working.

Mostly my mobile keeps working through power cuts and I can charge it
off the car.
I use it as a wifi hotspot with internet connections. If I perch it up
high it usually works
Expensive and slow, but enough to get info on the power cut from the
energy company.
Of course if we start to emulate S. Africa with daily load shedding
because there is no wind or sun and they shut down everything else,
people probably have more to worry about like food going rotten in their
fridges.
All you need is enough of something to dial 999 with because without
leccy your CH wont work and you are freezing to death.

--
Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
that they are dead.
Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

> >> I have known places where the only way to get on the internet
> >> was a dial up modem.
> >
> > Does that still work in UK?
>
> <http://www.webandmail.co.uk/free-internet-access.asp>
>
> Of course 'free' just means the cost appears on your phone bill

Certainly not from that service, the number 0845 660 0488 says not in service
and the web site has not been updated for the massively higher cost of calling
0845 numbers.

I used to sell Windows dial-up software and had lists of lots of 'free'
services, but all closed down a long time ago.

I could dial-in to my own ISDN-2 server card until I ceased the line, so maybe
some companies still offer their own private dial-up.

Angus

On 27/09/2023 14:12, Marco Moock wrote:
> Am 27.09.2023 um 14:01:36 Uhr schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>
>> It makes far more sense to route across their internal IP network
>> that convert to 64k fixed bandwidth streams and back
>
> Of course. That amount of traffic is very low compared to anything else
> and the infrastructure is there.
>
Exactly. BT was slow in realising IP was here to stay, but once they ran
the numbers and realised it was all bog standard Ciscos tech to
construct a backbone, they never looked back.

They can route phone calls across their private internet for essentially
nothing

Just as I can route text video and sound calls across the Internet for
nothing with Whatsapp...

I dont think there will be many new customers on BTs analogue phone
replacement.

Its legacy shit: we will all be using smartphones

--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell

On 27/09/2023 14:15, Marco Moock wrote:
> Am 27.09.2023 um 13:08:50 Uhr schrieb David Woolley:
>
>> They don't need to know that it is implemented using internet
>> technologies (probably not actually The Internet).
>
> As long as their analog line into their house still exists, it is fine
> for them.
>
>> In fact they cannot avoid that, as, even if the retain the analogue
>> presentation, the calls will still go over the Digital Voice
>> infrastructure.
>
> That was the case since the switch to digital exchanges in the 80s/90s.
> Analog lines were still available and people didn't even notice that
> change. The dialing tone changed, but that was all.
>
it wont be from here on in the 'digital voice' network has *already*
been mainly switched off as a core backbone service. Its all IP and IIRC ATM

> If a customer need to change things, the anger begins, especially when
> they have no technical experience and now need to install a router,
> when they never plugged a phone for 20 years.
>
Well no, BT comes and does that for them
And it wont necessarily be a router as such
a VDSL modem could simply be supplied with a BT plug on one end and a BT
socket on the other and be linked to a phone number back at base.
FTTP NTE the same, except fibre in, phone out.

--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 27/09/2023 11:13, Tweed wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 27/09/2023 10:13, JMB99 wrote:
>>>> On 26/09/2023 21:07, Marco Moock wrote:
>>>>> It is the more comfortable solution for them. Instead they would need
>>>>> to migrate hundred thousands of customers to VoIP. That will probably
>>>>> make many of them angry because they don't understand the reason.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It will make many angry because they have a telephone that has worked
>>>> perfectly well for years and don't see why they should change when no
>>>> improvement to them.
>>>>
>>> They will be able to pug their old phone into a port on a BT NTU (FTTP)
>>> or VDSL (FTTC) router and will never notice the difference expxept line
>>> quality will be way better
>>>
>>>> If BT can ensure their existing telephone continues working even when
>>>> the electricity supply is lost then they will not mind.
>>>>
>>> with FTTP its battery backup on the NTU - optional and rather expensive
>>> extra.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> OpenReach and the Altnets need to sit down together to design a proper
>> standardised backup battery system. As I see it, there is a need for two
>> Lithium Ion battery packs - one that kicks in immediately to cover short
>> term power outages and one that only activates when a button is pressed.
>> The latter can be used to power up the equipment when that fabled emergency
>> call needs to be made during a prolonged outage. Easily doable for around
>> £100 or less. It’s a lot cheaper than trying to continue with a 50V low
>> voltage power distribution network, which is what keeping the current
>> system boils down to.
>
> I dont know how much power a fibre NTE takes but its not a lot At most 5W.
> But I guess for 24hours that's 120Wh which at 12v or thereabouts is
> around 10Ah.
> That is a fairly chunky battery. One would probably prefer a lead acid
> for that sort of usage
>

30 AHr (At I guess 3V) Lithium ion power banks are easily available. One
for hot standby and a second for on demand use by aforementioned button
would cover most use cases. Add an external 12V charge port and you could
hook up a big car battery or run a lead out to your car’s fag lighter. The
totally paranoid could add a solar panel.

I’ve just been reading up about folk without power after storm Arwen. One
helpless person stated they couldn’t get in their car to go and search for
a mobile signal because their electric garage door wouldn’t open! I’ve
never seen one without a manual release.

JMB99 wrote:

> It will get a lot of publicity next time there is a major electricity
> supply fault with many people losing their supply for days and their
> mobile phones stopping working.

Bu will this "pseudo analogue line" have as good battery/generator
backup supply that people are used to with PSTN lines? Somehow I doubt
it ...

On 27/09/2023 14:30, Tweed wrote:
> I’ve just been reading up about folk without power after storm Arwen.
> One helpless person stated they couldn’t get in their car to go and
> search for a mobile signal because their electric garage door wouldn’t
> open! I’ve never seen one without a manual release.

Reminiscent of BT not being able to get into one small exchange after
lightning because they use electronic locks which need a connection to
the outside world to work! It happened at least twice at the same place.

Am 27.09.2023 um 14:23:44 Uhr schrieb The Natural Philosopher:

> Its legacy shit: we will all be using smartphones

I won't.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> JMB99 wrote:
>
>> It will get a lot of publicity next time there is a major electricity
>> supply fault with many people losing their supply for days and their
>> mobile phones stopping working.
>
> Bu will this "pseudo analogue line" have as good battery/generator
> backup supply that people are used to with PSTN lines? Somehow I doubt
> it ...
>

Of course it won’t.
Those on FTTP will be fine with a domestic backup battery. Those still
stuck on FTTC will be a bit stuck when the cabinet battery dies after a few
hours.

Am 27.09.2023 um 14:27:47 Uhr schrieb The Natural Philosopher:

> On 27/09/2023 14:15, Marco Moock wrote:
> > Am 27.09.2023 um 13:08:50 Uhr schrieb David Woolley:
> >
> >> They don't need to know that it is implemented using internet
> >> technologies (probably not actually The Internet).
> >
> > As long as their analog line into their house still exists, it is
> > fine for them.
> >
> >> In fact they cannot avoid that, as, even if the retain the analogue
> >> presentation, the calls will still go over the Digital Voice
> >> infrastructure.
> >
> > That was the case since the switch to digital exchanges in the
> > 80s/90s. Analog lines were still available and people didn't even
> > notice that change. The dialing tone changed, but that was all.
> >
> it wont be from here on in the 'digital voice' network has *already*
> been mainly switched off as a core backbone service. Its all IP and
> IIRC ATM

In Germany, many ISPs replaced SONET and ATM with Ethernet.
DSL customers needed to get a modem that can use Ethernet instead of
ATM and can set vlan tags.

> > If a customer need to change things, the anger begins, especially
> > when they have no technical experience and now need to install a
> > router, when they never plugged a phone for 20 years.
> >
> Well no, BT comes and does that for them

For free?

> And it wont necessarily be a router as such
> a VDSL modem could simply be supplied with a BT plug on one end and a
> BT socket on the other and be linked to a phone number back at base.
> FTTP NTE the same, except fibre in, phone out.

I don't think they will produce such devices for that niche market. The
amount of such customers is shrinking.

On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 15:50:11 +0200
Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:

> Am 27.09.2023 um 14:23:44 Uhr schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>
> > Its legacy shit: we will all be using smartphones
>
> I won't.
>

I will if my ISP gives it to me free of charge. Otherwise, no thanks.

--
Davey.

Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 15:50:11 +0200
> Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>
>> Am 27.09.2023 um 14:23:44 Uhr schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>
>>> Its legacy shit: we will all be using smartphones
>>
>> I won't.
>>
>
> I will if my ISP gives it to me free of charge. Otherwise, no thanks.
>

Quite right. Leave them for folk who recognise that they’re probably one of
the most mine-bogglingly useful inventions of the century. Probably on a
par with the HG2TG.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 10:13:39 -0000 (UTC), Tweed wrote:
> OpenReach and the Altnets need to sit down together to design a proper
> standardised backup battery system. As I see it, there is a need for two
> Lithium Ion battery packs - one that kicks in immediately to cover short
> term power outages and one that only activates when a button is pressed.
> The latter can be used to power up the equipment when that fabled
> emergency call needs to be made during a prolonged outage. Easily doable
> for around £100 or less. It’s a lot cheaper than trying to continue with
> a 50V low voltage power distribution network, which is what keeping the
> current system boils down to.

For better or worse, the standard ELV power supply is USB. And USB power
banks are widely available. All that needs to happen is routers and NTEs
to use USB for their power input (with an appropriate generation of PD to
support their power requirements). The latest version of USB-PD supports
up to 240W, so the old issues about needing too much power for USB no
longer apply.

Mike

Am 27.09.2023 um 16:57:43 Uhr schrieb Davey:

> On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 15:50:11 +0200
> Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>
> > Am 27.09.2023 um 14:23:44 Uhr schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
> >
> > > Its legacy shit: we will all be using smartphones
> >
> > I won't.
> >
>
> I will if my ISP gives it to me free of charge. Otherwise, no thanks.

Even not then because I don't want the Android nor iOS operating
system. I don't like software I cannot control.

Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
> Am 27.09.2023 um 16:57:43 Uhr schrieb Davey:
>
>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 15:50:11 +0200
>> Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 27.09.2023 um 14:23:44 Uhr schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>>
>>>> Its legacy shit: we will all be using smartphones
>>>
>>> I won't.
>>>
>>
>> I will if my ISP gives it to me free of charge. Otherwise, no thanks.
>
> Even not then because I don't want the Android nor iOS operating
> system. I don't like software I cannot control.
>
>

You won’t like the microcode in your processor then.

On 27/09/2023 20:43, Marco Moock wrote:
> Am 27.09.2023 um 16:57:43 Uhr schrieb Davey:
>
>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 15:50:11 +0200
>> Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 27.09.2023 um 14:23:44 Uhr schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>>
>>>> Its legacy shit: we will all be using smartphones
>>>
>>> I won't.
>>>
>>
>> I will if my ISP gives it to me free of charge. Otherwise, no thanks.
>
> Even not then because I don't want the Android nor iOS operating
> system. I don't like software I cannot control.

Other Operating systems are available.