On 15/10/2023 18:19, Tweed wrote:
> Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
>> On 15 Oct 2023 11:19, Tweed wrote:
>>> Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
>>>> On 14 Oct 2023 18:02, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 27 Sep 2023 10:13, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 27/09/2023 10:13, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 26/09/2023 21:07, Marco Moock wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> It is the more comfortable solution for them. Instead they would need
>>>>>>>>>> to migrate hundred thousands of customers to VoIP. That will probably
>>>>>>>>>> make many of them angry because they don't understand the reason.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It will make many angry because they have a telephone that has worked
>>>>>>>>> perfectly well for years and don't see why they should change when no
>>>>>>>>> improvement to them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They will be able to pug their old phone into a port on a BT NTU (FTTP)
>>>>>>>> or VDSL (FTTC) router and will never notice the difference expxept line
>>>>>>>> quality will be way better
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If BT can ensure their existing telephone continues working even when
>>>>>>>>> the electricity supply is lost then they will not mind.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> with FTTP its battery backup on the NTU - optional and rather expensive
>>>>>>>> extra.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OpenReach and the Altnets need to sit down together to design a proper
>>>>>>> standardised backup battery system. As I see it, there is a need for two
>>>>>>> Lithium Ion battery packs - one that kicks in immediately to cover short
>>>>>>> term power outages and one that only activates when a button is pressed.
>>>>>>> The latter can be used to power up the equipment when that fabled emergency
>>>>>>> call needs to be made during a prolonged outage. Easily doable for around
>>>>>>> £100 or less. It's a lot cheaper than trying to continue with a 50V low
>>>>>>> voltage power distribution network, which is what keeping the current
>>>>>>> system boils down to.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But then you have to have a monitoring system to determine when the
>>>>>> battery/batteries need replacing or the system has a fault.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And needing to press a button isn't helpful if the UPS is there to
>>>>>> support a "carecall" type system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Fall alarms already come with backup batteries. It's not much of a leap to
>>>>> increase the battery capacity and to include battery condition monitoring.
>>>>> Whatever way people want to argue it, a copper low voltage distribution
>>>>> system is not going to continue as there won't be the revenue to support
>>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> But if the "phone line" isn't working, it doesn't really matter if the
>>>> alarm itself has batteries in it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> There will be fall alarm products that provide power to the router/ONT.
>>> It's a soluble problem. However, my guess is most will migrate to a mobile
>>> solution, possibly with a multi network SIM.
>>
>> Doesn't work where there isn't a mobile signal.
>>
> In which case a battery backed solution for the ONT/router will be found,
> or possibly Sat comms.
>
Exactly. one battery for one pensioner is cheaper than keeping 10,000
copper lines serviceable...

--
The higher up the mountainside
The greener grows the grass.
The higher up the monkey climbs
The more he shows his arse.

Traditional

Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
> On 15 Oct 2023 17:19, Tweed wrote:
>> Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
>>> On 15 Oct 2023 11:19, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 14 Oct 2023 18:02, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 27 Sep 2023 10:13, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 27/09/2023 10:13, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 26/09/2023 21:07, Marco Moock wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> It is the more comfortable solution for them. Instead they would need
>>>>>>>>>>> to migrate hundred thousands of customers to VoIP. That will probably
>>>>>>>>>>> make many of them angry because they don't understand the reason.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It will make many angry because they have a telephone that has worked
>>>>>>>>>> perfectly well for years and don't see why they should change when no
>>>>>>>>>> improvement to them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They will be able to pug their old phone into a port on a BT NTU (FTTP)
>>>>>>>>> or VDSL (FTTC) router and will never notice the difference expxept line
>>>>>>>>> quality will be way better
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If BT can ensure their existing telephone continues working even when
>>>>>>>>>> the electricity supply is lost then they will not mind.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> with FTTP its battery backup on the NTU - optional and rather expensive
>>>>>>>>> extra.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OpenReach and the Altnets need to sit down together to design a proper
>>>>>>>> standardised backup battery system. As I see it, there is a need for two
>>>>>>>> Lithium Ion battery packs - one that kicks in immediately to cover short
>>>>>>>> term power outages and one that only activates when a button is pressed.
>>>>>>>> The latter can be used to power up the equipment when that fabled emergency
>>>>>>>> call needs to be made during a prolonged outage. Easily doable for around
>>>>>>>> £100 or less. It's a lot cheaper than trying to continue with a 50V low
>>>>>>>> voltage power distribution network, which is what keeping the current
>>>>>>>> system boils down to.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But then you have to have a monitoring system to determine when the
>>>>>>> battery/batteries need replacing or the system has a fault.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And needing to press a button isn't helpful if the UPS is there to
>>>>>>> support a "carecall" type system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fall alarms already come with backup batteries. It's not much of a leap to
>>>>>> increase the battery capacity and to include battery condition monitoring.
>>>>>> Whatever way people want to argue it, a copper low voltage distribution
>>>>>> system is not going to continue as there won't be the revenue to support
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> But if the "phone line" isn't working, it doesn't really matter if the
>>>>> alarm itself has batteries in it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There will be fall alarm products that provide power to the router/ONT.
>>>> It's a soluble problem. However, my guess is most will migrate to a mobile
>>>> solution, possibly with a multi network SIM.
>>>
>>> Doesn't work where there isn't a mobile signal.
>>>
>> In which case a battery backed solution for the ONT/router will be found,
>> or possibly Sat comms.
>
> The thread had started discussing a short battery to bridge short power
> intervals and then a longer duration one activated by pushing a button.
> I pointed out that a button is less usable for someone with a "care"
> alarm.
>
> So we are back to the start where we were discussing battery boxes and
> wondering how to do things like health monitoring of the batteries.
>
> Now is perhaps the time to reflect that, to get reasonable endurance we
> need more batteries, rather than more VA. So, to get 4-5 hours will be
> quite a big box if going with the traditional lead-acid PSU. Newer
> battery technology will help but will still require monitoring.
>
>

Care alarm base units are already battery backed. It’s not impossible to
design them to switch in a reserve additional battery to power the
router/ONT when the alarm is triggered. Modern electronics can easily
monitor battery health and report back a failing device.

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 15/10/2023 18:19, Tweed wrote:
>> Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
>>> On 15 Oct 2023 11:19, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 14 Oct 2023 18:02, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 27 Sep 2023 10:13, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 27/09/2023 10:13, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 26/09/2023 21:07, Marco Moock wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> It is the more comfortable solution for them. Instead they would need
>>>>>>>>>>> to migrate hundred thousands of customers to VoIP. That will probably
>>>>>>>>>>> make many of them angry because they don't understand the reason.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It will make many angry because they have a telephone that has worked
>>>>>>>>>> perfectly well for years and don't see why they should change when no
>>>>>>>>>> improvement to them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They will be able to pug their old phone into a port on a BT NTU (FTTP)
>>>>>>>>> or VDSL (FTTC) router and will never notice the difference expxept line
>>>>>>>>> quality will be way better
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If BT can ensure their existing telephone continues working even when
>>>>>>>>>> the electricity supply is lost then they will not mind.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> with FTTP its battery backup on the NTU - optional and rather expensive
>>>>>>>>> extra.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OpenReach and the Altnets need to sit down together to design a proper
>>>>>>>> standardised backup battery system. As I see it, there is a need for two
>>>>>>>> Lithium Ion battery packs - one that kicks in immediately to cover short
>>>>>>>> term power outages and one that only activates when a button is pressed.
>>>>>>>> The latter can be used to power up the equipment when that fabled emergency
>>>>>>>> call needs to be made during a prolonged outage. Easily doable for around
>>>>>>>> £100 or less. It's a lot cheaper than trying to continue with a 50V low
>>>>>>>> voltage power distribution network, which is what keeping the current
>>>>>>>> system boils down to.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But then you have to have a monitoring system to determine when the
>>>>>>> battery/batteries need replacing or the system has a fault.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And needing to press a button isn't helpful if the UPS is there to
>>>>>>> support a "carecall" type system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fall alarms already come with backup batteries. It's not much of a leap to
>>>>>> increase the battery capacity and to include battery condition monitoring.
>>>>>> Whatever way people want to argue it, a copper low voltage distribution
>>>>>> system is not going to continue as there won't be the revenue to support
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> But if the "phone line" isn't working, it doesn't really matter if the
>>>>> alarm itself has batteries in it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There will be fall alarm products that provide power to the router/ONT.
>>>> It's a soluble problem. However, my guess is most will migrate to a mobile
>>>> solution, possibly with a multi network SIM.
>>>
>>> Doesn't work where there isn't a mobile signal.
>>>
>> In which case a battery backed solution for the ONT/router will be found,
>> or possibly Sat comms.
>>
> Exactly. one battery for one pensioner is cheaper than keeping 10,000
> copper lines serviceable...
>

Sat comms could be a game changer for many emergency situations. I’d never
have thought that an iPhone could send a message via a satellite without
any additional antenna system, but it seems to be a reality. This is
clearly early days, but I can foresee all sorts of consumer devices having
this capability in the not too distant future.

On 15/10/2023 18:56, Tweed wrote:

>
> Sat comms could be a game changer for many emergency situations. I’d never
> have thought that an iPhone could send a message via a satellite without
> any additional antenna system, but it seems to be a reality. This is
> clearly early days, but I can foresee all sorts of consumer devices having
> this capability in the not too distant future.
>
Starlink is being used to run drones in Ukraine...despite Elon being in
Russia's pocket. I think the White house told him to keep it up, and he
had no choice.

--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."

- Stephen Vizinczey

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 18:59:00 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 15/10/2023 18:56, Tweed wrote:
>
> >
> > Sat comms could be a game changer for many emergency situations.
> > I’d never have thought that an iPhone could send a message via a
> > satellite without any additional antenna system, but it seems to be
> > a reality. This is clearly early days, but I can foresee all sorts
> > of consumer devices having this capability in the not too distant
> > future.
> Starlink is being used to run drones in Ukraine...despite Elon being
> in Russia's pocket. I think the White house told him to keep it up,
> and he had no choice.
>
>

Oh. The last report I saw said that Musk had shut it off, I have not
seen a report that it is till on. Citation?

--
Davey.

On 16/10/2023 00:50, Davey wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 18:59:00 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 15/10/2023 18:56, Tweed wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Sat comms could be a game changer for many emergency situations.
>>> I’d never have thought that an iPhone could send a message via a
>>> satellite without any additional antenna system, but it seems to be
>>> a reality. This is clearly early days, but I can foresee all sorts
>>> of consumer devices having this capability in the not too distant
>>> future.
>> Starlink is being used to run drones in Ukraine...despite Elon being
>> in Russia's pocket. I think the White house told him to keep it up,
>> and he had no choice.
>>
>>
>
> Oh. The last report I saw said that Musk had shut it off, I have not
> seen a report that it is till on. Citation?
>

I believe what happened was that he wanted to switch it all off, he
switched it off briefly during a sea borne assault in Sep 2022, but then
the pentagon may have hinted that it would be better not to react at all.

Wiki seems to think it is still on.

Musk like so many other rather rich people, seems unduly friendly
towards Russia.

--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 03:36:48 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 16/10/2023 00:50, Davey wrote:
> > On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 18:59:00 +0100
> > The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On 15/10/2023 18:56, Tweed wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Sat comms could be a game changer for many emergency situations.
> >>> I’d never have thought that an iPhone could send a message via a
> >>> satellite without any additional antenna system, but it seems to
> >>> be a reality. This is clearly early days, but I can foresee all
> >>> sorts of consumer devices having this capability in the not too
> >>> distant future.
> >> Starlink is being used to run drones in Ukraine...despite Elon
> >> being in Russia's pocket. I think the White house told him to keep
> >> it up, and he had no choice.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Oh. The last report I saw said that Musk had shut it off, I have not
> > seen a report that it is till on. Citation?
> >
>
> I believe what happened was that he wanted to switch it all off, he
> switched it off briefly during a sea borne assault in Sep 2022, but
> then the pentagon may have hinted that it would be better not to
> react at all.
>
> Wiki seems to think it is still on.
>
> Musk like so many other rather rich people, seems unduly friendly
> towards Russia.
>
>

I found a Search most unhelpful, mostly returning results from 2022.
But I know that Musk turning it off as far as Ukraine was concerned was
reported this summer, but I don't have any proof.
Another one of those mysteries.

--
Davey.

On 16/10/2023 09:11, Davey wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 03:36:48 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 16/10/2023 00:50, Davey wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 18:59:00 +0100
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 15/10/2023 18:56, Tweed wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sat comms could be a game changer for many emergency situations.
>>>>> I’d never have thought that an iPhone could send a message via a
>>>>> satellite without any additional antenna system, but it seems to
>>>>> be a reality. This is clearly early days, but I can foresee all
>>>>> sorts of consumer devices having this capability in the not too
>>>>> distant future.
>>>> Starlink is being used to run drones in Ukraine...despite Elon
>>>> being in Russia's pocket. I think the White house told him to keep
>>>> it up, and he had no choice.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Oh. The last report I saw said that Musk had shut it off, I have not
>>> seen a report that it is till on. Citation?
>>>
>>
>> I believe what happened was that he wanted to switch it all off, he
>> switched it off briefly during a sea borne assault in Sep 2022, but
>> then the pentagon may have hinted that it would be better not to
>> react at all.
>>
>> Wiki seems to think it is still on.
>>
>> Musk like so many other rather rich people, seems unduly friendly
>> towards Russia.
>>
>>
>
> I found a Search most unhelpful, mostly returning results from 2022.
> But I know that Musk turning it off as far as Ukraine was concerned was
> reported this summer, but I don't have any proof.

It was reported this summer but it happened September 2022.

> Another one of those mysteries.
>
Not really, just the fog of war and D notices dictate what can and
cannot be revealed about 'friendly' military issues.

There is no doubt that Russia considers Musk to be their friend, and
having a satellite internet available across the entire battlefield is a
huge advantage to whoever uses it effectively.

TCP/IP was developed initially for exactly this sort of scenario.

As indeed were integrated circuits.

--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

> If you don’t have broadband (aka the British Standard Elderly Person) it
> looks like you can keep the copper fed landline until 2030:
>
> https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/26/bt_begins_big_switchover_ahead/
>
> But some customers do not have broadband, and don't want it (yes, there are
> some, believe it or not). These customers will not be switched to a digital
> landline "until they are able to," BT said.
>
> We asked what this meant, and the company told us that customers without
> access to broadband, will be offered a "Pre Digital Landline" service,
> where equipment will be installed in the local telephone exchange allowing
> them to continue to use their old phone line as before.
>
> This will be available from late 2024 and is designed to provide "interim
> connectivity" until sometime around 2030, when customers will be required
> to move over to Digital Voice or an alternative. So refuseniks have until
> then to decide what they want to do.

My Broadband has failed 8 times in the last 4 weeks and had to be
rebooted. Once was my fault for accidentally pulling the power
connector out of the router, the rest were outside my control and I just
had to keep trying until it came back.

If this is an example of things to come, I'll hang on to my POTS as long
as possible.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Am 24.10.2023 um 16:09:38 Uhr schrieb Liz Tuddenham:

> My Broadband has failed 8 times in the last 4 weeks and had to be
> rebooted. Once was my fault for accidentally pulling the power
> connector out of the router, the rest were outside my control and I
> just had to keep trying until it came back.

You need to investigate the issue. Check the logs of router and modem.

On 24/10/2023 16:09, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If you don’t have broadband (aka the British Standard Elderly Person) it
>> looks like you can keep the copper fed landline until 2030:
>>
>> https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/26/bt_begins_big_switchover_ahead/
>>
>> But some customers do not have broadband, and don't want it (yes, there are
>> some, believe it or not). These customers will not be switched to a digital
>> landline "until they are able to," BT said.
>>
>> We asked what this meant, and the company told us that customers without
>> access to broadband, will be offered a "Pre Digital Landline" service,
>> where equipment will be installed in the local telephone exchange allowing
>> them to continue to use their old phone line as before.
>>
>> This will be available from late 2024 and is designed to provide "interim
>> connectivity" until sometime around 2030, when customers will be required
>> to move over to Digital Voice or an alternative. So refuseniks have until
>> then to decide what they want to do.

That is not quite what it says on the OpenReach web page. It says:-

"It’s designed to provide interim connectivity, but only when there is
no other option available. "

which reads to me that you don't get a choice if you are in a Fibre area
you will get a Digital Voice service unless you have specific
requirements...

... Its been reported on newsgroups that any one ordering a phone line in
a fibre area simply receives a broadband connection with a BT router
with a home hub.

>
> My Broadband has failed 8 times in the last 4 weeks and had to be
> rebooted. Once was my fault for accidentally pulling the power
> connector out of the router, the rest were outside my control and I just
> had to keep trying until it came back.
>
> If this is an example of things to come, I'll hang on to my POTS
I bet you are on original ADSL. If its an older router worth getting it
replaced. Its worth noting that the BT interim solution in effect moves
the "router" out of the house to somewhere else where you can't re-boot
it, and can't ring to report a fault when it fails....

Dave

On 25/10/2023 09:16, David Wade wrote:
> .. Its been reported on newsgroups that any one ordering a phone line in
> a fibre area simply receives a broadband connection with a BT router
> with a home hub.

I am sure that if you particularly want Copper To The Premises then they
will provide it but you will have pay the full cost!

Am 25.10.2023 um 12:09:30 Uhr schrieb JMB99:

> On 25/10/2023 09:16, David Wade wrote:
> > .. Its been reported on newsgroups that any one ordering a phone
> > line in a fibre area simply receives a broadband connection with a
> > BT router with a home hub.
>
>
> I am sure that if you particularly want Copper To The Premises then
> they will provide it but you will have pay the full cost!

Isn't it already available except in new housing estates?

Although, it may be abandoned in future if fiber is available.

JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:

> On 25/10/2023 09:16, David Wade wrote:
> > .. Its been reported on newsgroups that any one ordering a phone line in
> > a fibre area simply receives a broadband connection with a BT router
> > with a home hub.
>
>
> I am sure that if you particularly want Copper To The Premises then they
> will provide it but you will have pay the full cost!

Will there be any guarantee that it won't go down during a power cut
after they have sold off most of the exchanges and only have a couple of
hours-worth of batteries in a cabinet somewhere with no backup
generators? A recent power cable fault in Bradford on Avon took out
mobile 'phones in part of the town for several days.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Marco Moock wrote:

> schrieb JMB99:
>
>> I am sure that if you particularly want Copper To The Premises then
>> they will provide it but you will have pay the full cost!
>
> Isn't it already available except in new housing estates?

copper is there, but they've stopped selling analogue voice over it, you
can't order a new line, any change of an existing line will cease the
analogue and re-provision as digital (mostly over xDSL).

<https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/the-all-ip-programme/stopsell-updates>

This is relatively new, has only applied for about a month, there'll
still be exceptions, but they won't want to allow too many, or they'll
miss their self-imposed 2025 deadline.

> Although, it may be abandoned in future if fiber is available.

Am 25.10.2023 um 13:27:27 Uhr schrieb Liz Tuddenham:

> Will there be any guarantee that it won't go down during a power cut
> after they have sold off most of the exchanges and only have a couple
> of hours-worth of batteries in a cabinet somewhere with no backup
> generators?

Most likely no. I predict it will be offered "as-is" and availability
might be worse than POTS.

On 25/10/2023 13:17, Marco Moock wrote:
> Am 25.10.2023 um 12:09:30 Uhr schrieb JMB99:
>
>> On 25/10/2023 09:16, David Wade wrote:
>>> .. Its been reported on newsgroups that any one ordering a phone
>>> line in a fibre area simply receives a broadband connection with a
>>> BT router with a home hub.
>>
>>
>> I am sure that if you particularly want Copper To The Premises then
>> they will provide it but you will have pay the full cost!
>
> Isn't it already available except in new housing estates?
>
> Although, it may be abandoned in future if fiber is available.
>
not may, will, as fast as possible.

Fibre is way more reliable and will cost them(Openreach) far less in O &
M than copper.

--
“But what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!”

Mary Wollstonecraft

On 25/10/2023 13:27, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> On 25/10/2023 09:16, David Wade wrote:
>>> .. Its been reported on newsgroups that any one ordering a phone line in
>>> a fibre area simply receives a broadband connection with a BT router
>>> with a home hub.
>>
>>
>> I am sure that if you particularly want Copper To The Premises then they
>> will provide it but you will have pay the full cost!
>
> Will there be any guarantee that it won't go down during a power cut
> after they have sold off most of the exchanges and only have a couple of
> hours-worth of batteries in a cabinet somewhere with no backup
> generators? A recent power cable fault in Bradford on Avon took out
> mobile 'phones in part of the town for several days.
>
>
They really will not supply it at all.

It will be cheaper to put in fibre , an NTU and battery backup

--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

On 25/10/2023 13:17, Marco Moock wrote:
> Am 25.10.2023 um 12:09:30 Uhr schrieb JMB99:
>
>> On 25/10/2023 09:16, David Wade wrote:
>>> .. Its been reported on newsgroups that any one ordering a phone
>>> line in a fibre area simply receives a broadband connection with a
>>> BT router with a home hub.
>>
>>
>> I am sure that if you particularly want Copper To The Premises then
>> they will provide it but you will have pay the full cost!
>

Copper to the premises does not make sense if there is no longer an
exchange, or exchange equipment to connect it to.

> Isn't it already available except in new housing estates?
>

Its no longer orderable as such anywhere.

> Although, it may be abandoned in future if fiber is available.
>

That already is the case.

Dave

Tweed wrote:

> If you don’t have broadband (aka the British Standard Elderly Person) it
> looks like you can keep the copper fed landline until 2030:

A few more details, such as the name "SOTAP for Analogue"

<https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/11/openreach-prep-alternative-uk-analogue-style-phone-product.html>